About Ship Sizes

[DairuggerXV]

So on a discord server, I had a conversation that revealed the Tokugawa as slightly smaller than the SDF-1, nearly the same size if you remove the Prometheus and Daedelus. The SDF-4 Liberator is somewhat bigger with way more internal volume. This leads to the question: What all do they put into these ships? It can't be equipment, the SDF-1 managed to carry a full city in her belly and Robotechnology has likely gotten more advanced since. Also to make sure I have put this into perspective for you:

My best esitmate for the SDF-4 puts internal volume at about 353,426,625 cubic meters (multiplying the three sides and the reducing the volume by 25% because it's not a simple cube). A representative of a Class A luxury recreational vehicle is about is about 81.55 cubic meters (based on measurements I found online for one). You could fit 4.3 million Class A RVs inside the SDF-4 and still have room. At a crew of 8400, if people stationed aboard the SDF-4 do not each have individual Enterprise-D command officer-level (at least in term) crew quarters, what are they using all that space for? Again, do not tell me military equipment. I can and will point to the SDF-1 and the subsequent miniaturization of Robotechnology to debunk that idea.

[glitterboy2098]

mot of the smaller ships (the AC fleet, the Ikazuchi, etc) are so packed with mecha and weapons that they barely would have room for crew. (i tend to take the approach that on those ships, the crew sleep in pod hotel like seal-able bunks, which also double as emergency shelters with limited life support, and only the upper command crew have small cramped cabins.. and only the captain doesn't have to share), while the fortress type ships (the SDF's, most of the converted zentreadi hulls, and to a degree the tokugawas) are much more comfortable with individual cabins for most of the officers, and even the enlisted having shared cabins. this makes them more attractive as a posting. i also tend to assume that the big ships tend to have support facilities for the crews of the smaller ships.. extra cabins for "shore leave" rotations, expanded recreational and medical facilities, etc. to the point that if you have the SDF-3 or SDF-4 in the fleet (or a converted zentreadi hull, in my game setting) you actually have what amounts to a small city, often including civilian dependants, scientific staff, etc. basically the bigger the ship, the more it tends to act more like a mobile space station/military base than just a combat vessel.

(the converted zentreadi hulls take this to the extreme.. as most of them are large enough that they can actually hold entire earth forces cruisers inside their hanger bays, letting them act as mobile drydocks! (the banshee classl ight cruiser for example, is about the same size as the zentreadi landing pod. and is actually narrower. which means you could park those inside the same bays that used to hold the landing pods, and might even be able to fit the battle class heavy cruisers inside. though the tristar battlecruiser probably is too big to get through the existing hatches. though odds are it would fit inside if you refit the ship with bigger hatches. note that the Garfish light cruiser is about the same size as a banshee class as well.)

[DairuggerXV]

I can agree with that.

[glitterboy2098]

i actually tend to assume that the "colony bays" that show up in the SDF-3 and Tokugawa's shadow chronicles era refits are dedicated "city in a bottle" areas, with the big armored hatches covering up large windows. the tokugawa getting them as a result of the refit using much more developed and compact tech opening up extra internal space (the tokugawa originally was designed and started being built with ARMD level tech, and while the class got refit with the next highest level before launch, it was still a few generations out of date by the time it went into refit) while in the SDF-3's case it was a reshuffling of the interior layouts as part of the refit (plus the extra space from the tech improvements), while recognizing that the SDF-3 was (in theory at least) going to be less on the front lines so could sacrifice some armor protections to allow for better fleet support facilities.)

[green.nova343]

1st edition book The Sentinels had some deckplans for the Ikazuchis. I believe the scale is somewhat off, given the change in size for the ships (having shrunk down for 2E), but on that ship they had 44x44ft/13.4x13.4m "quarters" set up: seems palatial (1936ft[sup]2[/sup]/179.86m[sup]2[/sup]), but the enlisted ones housed 6-8 crew each, while the officer versions either held 2-3 (maybe 4 officers) or a higher-ranking officer & his family.

Granted, I'm not so sure that having your family on board was all that common with the UEEF, but I could see maybe the captain having that.

If you scale it down to match the smaller size, those quarters come down to more like 35x35ft to 36x36ft (10.7x10.7m to 11.0x11.0m) "apartments", roughly 1225ft[sup]2[/sup]/113.81m[sup]2[/sup]. I think of them like some of the dorms at the local state college: 4 sets of bedrooms (2/room) with a common bathroom & a common area. How much extra space you need depends on how long you think UEEF ship deployments lasted without making any kind of planetfall.

[glitterboy2098]

the problem with those decks plans though is that in order to fit the mecha and support craft it carries aboard in the hangers it sets aside, you need "bigger on the inside" technology.. especially given that the first ed version was fitting up to 4 Horizont shuttles and 3 Z-3 cyclops into those bays, when those craft alone use up a volume comparable to the entire 1st ed ikazuchi itself. the 514 mecha (more liek ~600 when you consider that some of them are betas, VF-1's/VF-1V's, and MAC-2/3's which are bigger than the otherwise alpha sized alpha's and REF destroids) carried inside the hull (not counting the 144 carried in the external bays), plus 3000 cyclones, half a dozen GMU's (which themselves make up something like half the volume of the ikazuchi), and 216 assorted maintance vehicles, trucks, recovery vehicles, and MLRS vehicles.

while the 2nd ed version shrank a bit to match the on screen sizes (though actually less than you'd expect, as the dimensions used were from the HG materials for the shadow chronicles version, despite the deluxe book using the art for the New gen one.. the TSC ship was longer than the NG one.), it did get a rather more plausible mecha loadout thanks to the dropping the huge stuff like GMU's, horizon-T's, and so on, though it is still extremely packed despite having about ~20% less veritechs and infantry troops. thus why i go for highly compact living conditions. this is especially true for the ASC ships, where they cram so many turrets, missile launchers, engines, and massive hanger decks they often barely seem to have room for the bridge much less living quarters.

[green.nova343]

the problem with those decks plans though is that in order to fit the mecha and support craft it carries aboard in the hangers it sets aside, you need "bigger on the inside" technology.. especially given that the first ed version was fitting up to 4 Horizont shuttles and 3 Z-3 cyclops into those bays, when those craft alone use up a volume comparable to the entire 1st ed ikazuchi itself. the 514 mecha (more liek ~600 when you consider that some of them are betas, VF-1's/VF-1V's, and MAC-2/3's which are bigger than the otherwise alpha sized alpha's and REF destroids) carried inside the hull (not counting the 144 carried in the external bays), plus 3000 cyclones, half a dozen GMU's (which themselves make up something like half the volume of the ikazuchi), and 216 assorted maintance vehicles, trucks, recovery vehicles, and MLRS vehicles.

while the 2nd ed version shrank a bit to match the on screen sizes (though actually less than you'd expect, as the dimensions used were from the HG materials for the shadow chronicles version, despite the deluxe book using the art for the New gen one.. the TSC ship was longer than the NG one.), it did get a rather more plausible mecha loadout thanks to the dropping the huge stuff like GMU's, horizon-T's, and so on, though it is still extremely packed despite having about ~20% less veritechs and infantry troops. thus why i go for highly compact living conditions. this is especially true for the ASC ships, where they cram so many turrets, missile launchers, engines, and massive hanger decks they often barely seem to have room for the bridge much less living quarters.

I definitely agree. I think part of their idea behind "luxury" accommodations was those plans were made under the assumption that the UEEF was on this long trip to Tirol & didn't have any other bases or operations in the meantime...essentially turning them into colony ships (which they're not supposed to be).

I may have to go back to the Macross II books & look at their deck plans. They don't describe the size of them, but the grid-paper background might allow for some estimates of their sizes.

EDIT: Hmmm...looking at the Escort Carrier (Macross II Deck Plans 1), it's looking like the quarters (whether labeled "crew" or "officers") are roughly 18x12ft/5.5x3.7m (216ft[sup]2[/sup]/20.01m[sup]2[/sup]). That's about a small studio-sized apartment, a bit cramped for a couple of officers, & definitely more "barracks" style for enlisted. Some of the other ships have expanded ones, but I imagine that could simply be either multiple units too small to detail out, or expanded "barracks-style" quarters.

[ShadowLogan]

I had a conversation that revealed the Tokugawa as slightly smaller than the SDF-1, nearly the same size if you remove the Prometheus and Daedelus. The SDF-4 Liberator is somewhat bigger with way more internal volume.

Length wise that lines up with the RT.com Size Comparison Chart, and the Infopedia and AotSC (and likely the 2E PB RPG).

My best esitmate for the SDF-4 puts internal volume at about 353,426,625 cubic meters (multiplying the three sides and the reducing the volume by 25% because it's not a simple cube). A representative of a Class A luxury recreational vehicle is about is about 81.55 cubic meters (based on measurements I found online for one). You could fit 4.3 million Class A RVs inside the SDF-4 and still have room. At a crew of 8400, if people stationed aboard the SDF-4 do not each have individual Enterprise-D command officer-level (at least in term) crew quarters, what are they using all that space for? Again, do not tell me military equipment. I can and will point to the SDF-1 and the subsequent miniaturization of Robotechnology to debunk that idea.

There isn't going to be anything official AFAIK.

IMHO the leading candidates for that space are going to be:
-Water, the average US individual uses 60 gallons of water (~227L or ~0.227m^3) per day (this includes non-consumed roles), water could be used in other functions not directly related to the crew (cooling for example), factor in reserves to replaces any losses (even with recycling). It won't account for everything, but you will need some very large tanks
-consumables, this will be dictated more by not just the quantity of people on board, but also how long you expect them to go before resupply for the crew, and if you include ammunition (and spare parts) you'd have to determine how long the supply is expected to last.
-I would also suspect they have to have extensive medical facilities due to operating so far from base
-I would also suspect some of that space is given over to training and recreation facilities (the Alpha Simulator seen in the Sentinels OVA is larger than an Alpha, and while the ASC version for the VHT is smaller both still placed the operator in a huge room).
-per Art of the Shadow Chronicles, the UEEF does salvage Zentreadi ship systems/equipment (ex. Fold Drives), which could require the ships to be as large as they are to support the salvaged Zentreadi equipment (even allowing for modifications they could reach a point where they couldn't slim them down)
-per AotSC the Tok/SDF-3/4 ships also have huge total personnel capacities (120-180k) even though the crew/troop count is in the single digit thousands (by comparison in AotSC, the 2E RPG might not line up here).
-if the SDF-1 is used as a baseline, it's probably important to remember that some entire sections are not likely open (like the Reflex Cannon booms, possibly the engine block/legs), which might be replicated on the other designs
-UEEF Mecha volume requirements, for the SDF-4's compliment listing in Genisis Pits (pg91), and treating the mecha as simplified cubes, comes in at ~1,000,000m^3 (though this depends on Veritech Mode). The bay for the 4x Horizon-T's is not considered (just the Alpha, Beta, Cyclone, nt-Battloids, Silverback), since each Horizon can drop their cargo pods I would suspect there is some inventory of replaceable pods (possibly pre-packaged Or empty). Since we aren't going to pack them in tightly and do expect them to be able to taxi elsewhere and such you would need to multiply that number by several orders. Oddly enough I don't see conventional vehicles listed (beyond just the Horizon's) that are likely also carried for support roles (AAT-30/40, Kodiaks, etc).

It could also just be "wasted space" due to the ships in question all being refits of unknown Zentreadi/Tirolian-classes of vessels, though nothing actually establishes this in canon and would actually go against canon (which could I guess be later rectoned).

[green.nova343]

I had a conversation that revealed the Tokugawa as slightly smaller than the SDF-1, nearly the same size if you remove the Prometheus and Daedelus. The SDF-4 Liberator is somewhat bigger with way more internal volume.

Length wise that lines up with the RT.com Size Comparison Chart, and the Infopedia and AotSC (and likely the 2E PB RPG).

My best esitmate for the SDF-4 puts internal volume at about 353,426,625 cubic meters (multiplying the three sides and the reducing the volume by 25% because it's not a simple cube). A representative of a Class A luxury recreational vehicle is about is about 81.55 cubic meters (based on measurements I found online for one). You could fit 4.3 million Class A RVs inside the SDF-4 and still have room. At a crew of 8400, if people stationed aboard the SDF-4 do not each have individual Enterprise-D command officer-level (at least in term) crew quarters, what are they using all that space for? Again, do not tell me military equipment. I can and will point to the SDF-1 and the subsequent miniaturization of Robotechnology to debunk that idea.

There isn't going to be anything official AFAIK.

IMHO the leading candidates for that space are going to be:
-Water, the average US individual uses 60 gallons of water (~227L or ~0.227m^3) per day (this includes non-consumed roles), water could be used in other functions not directly related to the crew (cooling for example), factor in reserves to replaces any losses (even with recycling). It won't account for everything, but you will need some very large tanks
-consumables, this will be dictated more by not just the quantity of people on board, but also how long you expect them to go before resupply for the crew, and if you include ammunition (and spare parts) you'd have to determine how long the supply is expected to last.
-I would also suspect they have to have extensive medical facilities due to operating so far from base
-I would also suspect some of that space is given over to training and recreation facilities (the Alpha Simulator seen in the Sentinels OVA is larger than an Alpha, and while the ASC version for the VHT is smaller both still placed the operator in a huge room).
-per Art of the Shadow Chronicles, the UEEF does salvage Zentreadi ship systems/equipment (ex. Fold Drives), which could require the ships to be as large as they are to support the salvaged Zentreadi equipment (even allowing for modifications they could reach a point where they couldn't slim them down)
-per AotSC the Tok/SDF-3/4 ships also have huge total personnel capacities (120-180k) even though the crew/troop count is in the single digit thousands (by comparison in AotSC, the 2E RPG might not line up here).
-if the SDF-1 is used as a baseline, it's probably important to remember that some entire sections are not likely open (like the Reflex Cannon booms, possibly the engine block/legs), which might be replicated on the other designs
-UEEF Mecha volume requirements, for the SDF-4's compliment listing in Genisis Pits (pg91), and treating the mecha as simplified cubes, comes in at ~1,000,000m^3 (though this depends on Veritech Mode). The bay for the 4x Horizon-T's is not considered (just the Alpha, Beta, Cyclone, nt-Battloids, Silverback), since each Horizon can drop their cargo pods I would suspect there is some inventory of replaceable pods (possibly pre-packaged Or empty). Since we aren't going to pack them in tightly and do expect them to be able to taxi elsewhere and such you would need to multiply that number by several orders. Oddly enough I don't see conventional vehicles listed (beyond just the Horizon's) that are likely also carried for support roles (AAT-30/40, Kodiaks, etc).

It could also just be "wasted space" due to the ships in question all being refits of unknown Zentreadi/Tirolian-classes of vessels, though nothing actually establishes this in canon and would actually go against canon (which could I guess be later rectoned).

Quite right. I don't think we ever had deck plans in Robotech, but in Macross II (Deck Plans 3) the SDF-1 doesn't show anything inside the Main Gun's booms except maintenance shafts (horizontal shafts are 20x25m in cross-section, verticals 10x10m). The SDF-4 has a boomless cannon of similar performance, so that would take up a lot of room.

And I know the OP won't like it, but some of the military systems will also take up a lot of room. SDF-1 (per 2E sourcebook) carried ~516 Valkyries, Lancer fighters & Ghost drone fighters on it (including the complement of the Prometheus supercarrier), & excluding the rotary-wing & atmospheric-only craft & the various shuttles. At 18 megatons, it vastly outmassed the Tristar cruisers (459 kilotons, basically 4 USN supercarriers combined)...which per 2E carried 220 fighters & Veritechs. Nearly 40 times the mass but not quite 2.5 times the airgroup. We don't have 1E or 2E stats for the Tokugawas...but their 10.8 megatons per the uRRG site puts it about 60% of the SDF-1's size, but supposedly carrying about 1,000 Veritechs & fighters (twice the airgroup). And unlike the later Ikazuchis, the Tokugawas & Tristars didn't have those quick-launch bays, they had conventional hanger bays in them (assuming with some sort of catapult system, but can't confirm it). Traditional carrier-style facilities take up a lot more volume that a quick-release launch bay does, especially with the launch/landing bays. Half the ship for twice the airgroup means more space given over to the airgroup support systems. That's not factoring in the storage of those airwings either... & while the Logan/AGACS may be smaller than a Valkyrie, the Chimera space fighters are just as massive.

[DairuggerXV]

Oh, I figure the equipment takes up a lot of room, and most of the space is likely taken up by military equipment... but these are ships the same size or larger than the SDF-1, and they seem to have mostly similar equipment (if anything, the SDF-1 has MORE weapons on it). Also, it seemed that one of the main advantages of the Syncro Cannons were they weren't as big as the reflex cannons of old but had the same levels of firepower. So while I'm expecting a lot of the space to be taken up by military equipment and general supplies. The max carry compliments (a crew of 8400 or so might be all that's needed to run the thing, so I have no problems with that number per see, but 150K max capacity? I do not buy that at all) on these are entirely too low, especially when a ship of similar size had a city in it. So there is either a lot of empty space, or it's being used for something not showing up in the specs we are given.

Yes, this is probably a case of sci-fi writers having no sense of scale, but these numbers are huge and even accounting for the equipment being comparable in volume to their real-world analogs, there just isn't enough space taken up for that to make sense.

Edit: Yes I'm aware they only had about 70,000 on the SDF-1. However, it was still very roomy and likely could have fit a lot more.

[taalismn]

What? I can't use 'Superdimensional' as a loophole to give my ships 'Interiors by Gallifrey' dimensions?

[ShadowLogan]

The max carry compliments (a crew of 8400 or so might be all that's needed to run the thing, so I have no problems with that number per see, but 150K max capacity? I do not buy that at all) on these are entirely too low, especially when a ship of similar size had a city in it. So there is either a lot of empty space, or it's being used for something not showing up in the specs we are given.

There are several factors to consider though in terms of how many people you could fit on a space ship IN SPACE aside from available volume that fall under the umbrella heading of life support:
-providing breathable air, removing the CO2 everyone is exhaling and replacing it with O2, how fast can your system do this (and even how it is done)
-water
-temperature management, in this case keeping the environment at a comfortable temperature is going to require a cooling system designed with the vacuum of space in mind since that vacuum will act as an insulator. And the human body will act as a heat source as our bodies do radiate heat away (along with other equipment). The ISS has 4x banks of radiators that each measure 3.12m x 13.6m (a total area of 169.7m^2) for a crew of 6 (plus visitors and equipment, or put another way ~28m^2 per person during regular operations, the largest crew complement on the ISS to date has been 13). If the ISS is used as a rough quick baseline then the capacity of the Tokagawa (~6.9m^2 per) and SDF-4 (~12.2m^2 per) might be to much if we treat the ships as basic rectangular cubes (which they aren't), though at their regular crew sizes wouldn't have any issue (~62m^2 for the SDF-4, and it just goes up from there for the Tok, Tristar, and Ikazuchi, sorry I didn't look at the SDF-1/3 or other ships). So the ships might be as large as they are to help with radiative cooling, even if some of that space seems to be under utilized, it should be noted the ISS system in question is the active system (and the ISS also radiates passively, and I'm not going to even attempt to calculate the surface area for that).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

At least in terms of the UEF 2nd Robotech War starships, they obviously have some serious armor belts protecting them. That's going to account for at least some of the internal volume being eaten up. And then at least the Pulsar-class Light Cruiser and Tristar-class Large Cruiser mount Spacelord 10-silo vertical long range missile launchers. Tristar's also mount Skylord ICBM-style missiles (and one variant of the Pulsar may have them fired out of a set of horizontal forward end tubes). The Binary-class Battlecruiser doesn't appear to mount any missile launchers but may have a "mega-laser" or heavy anti-ship railgun in the chin (there is an aperture there that is clearly not a vernier as established in Mind Games).

[glitterboy2098]

when i stated up the Battle class (not a fan of the star based naming scheme) for my own use, i made that bow apeture the housing and gun port for an anti-ship converging beam cannon, basically a copy of one of the secondary main guns off zenreadi warships (like the Thurvel-Salan, which mounts 24 in turrets). while not as potent or long ranged as a Reflex cannon, being able to reach out about 18,000km and hit with enough damage to take out the main weapon turrets on an enemy zent ship or blow holes hundreds of feet across into the hull makes them fairly potent as human ships go.