The exoskeleton of a Zentraedi Battlecruiser

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

So,

looking at The Sentinels again, while retaking screen caps, I noticed something. The armor plating that is being affixed shows the area underneath is HOLLOW. In fact, it looks like scaffolding of some sort is inside the structure. What everyone assumes is the SDF-3, in fact, is not. Its a hollow shell that holds the SDF-3 and its immediate fleet of ships. This isn't that radical of an idea, of course, as a number of times its been alluded to in various incarnations (such as the 1E RPG having the SDF-3 and its fleet hidden in the shell of a Nupetiet-Vergnitzs-Class Fleet Command Battleship). Robotech Art 3 and the 1986 Toy Fair Promo Video both mention the "armada of ships". Even the Eternity comics run of The Sentinels sort of indicates this in Book II Issue #7 when it shows the SDF-3 and a small fleet consisting of an Izumo, Ikazuchi and Garfish (and another scene with what could almost be a Tristar in the background). Also, the OAV and scripts BOTH call it "the rebuilt SDF-3" and certainly the SDF-3 herself would have already been finished well before the mission started (in fact, she would have already undergone a shakedown cruise to work out any problems).

Now, the question is, what does the SDF-3 actually look like? Maybe its a copy of the SDF-1. Or maybe its something like the fan-created Tokugawa-style SDF. Whatever it is, though, its probably less than 1300m in length. Gonna have to save room for ships in the rest of the exoskeleton (and YMMV as to what those ships are: Southern Cross, MOSPEADA or both). There are also some interesting aspects of the shell, such as is the Bridge section its own independent vessel (the back of it has the Zentraedi-style "louvers" that could be engines). What about the sponsons/nacelles? Surely they're independent craft as well since its unlikely you're going to waste space cramming ships into them when you can park tons of mecha and other assets that would have an independent platform to operate from. They could even be a sort of "ARMD" analogue.

Also, deploying the armada once the SDF-3 arrives probably entails "rapid scheduled disassembly" of the exoskeleton so the fleet can deploy and then move into action after mecha have been launched to form a screen.

[glitterboy2098]

given the post-sentinels war refit in the 2040's (giving us the shadow chronicles version) got rid of the "arm sponsons" entirely and replaced them with massive dropships, i could see the original version having some for of detachable craft there as well.

one way that might allow for some degree of determining what the SDF-3 originally looked like under the fake hull, would be to superimpose the refit version over the fake hull version. from the looks of that, the refit's engines and central hull looks like it could have been largely the same, just with new hull plating.. it just has new, wider but shorter main gun booms in front, and new bridge section. given that those are the two parts of the ship most damaged by the Regent's attack in Prelude to shadow chronicles, the gunbooms by the scorpion carrier's attack, the bridge by shadow fighter attack.

a few interesting observations of the SDF-3 from that first issue, btw. the close up we have of the bridge when its attack, looks a lot like the post-refit's bridge module behind the big bubble window, mounted on a shelf above some form of radome, or perhaps a defensive shield generator.

also, the gunbooms, when they are hit by the regents reflex cannons, break apart in a way that suggests they might split vertically in a way similar to the zentreadi monitor gunship. which suggests to me that the SDF3's design might be a literal patchwork.. zentreadi monitor reflex cannon bow sections copied almost entirely from the factory sat's files and built by its foundries, mated to a human built hull and drive systems.


(that said.. i liek to use the SDF-3's fake hull as the basis for a tirolian navy craft. something the masters empire used to police their holdings, given they'd want to limit how much exposure the zentreadi have to the societies of such worlds. never did get around to figuring out specifics though.)

[ShadowLogan]

. Its a hollow shell that holds the SDF-3 and its immediate fleet of ships. This isn't that radical of an idea, of course, as a number of times its been alluded to in various incarnations (such as the 1E RPG having the SDF-3 and its fleet hidden in the shell of a Nupetiet-Vergnitzs-Class Fleet Command Battleship

Using the RT.com Infopedia's size charts, which basically only gives us the length to work from:
-Nupetiet-Vergnitzs is just over 4km long
-SDF-3 w/Exo-Hull is ~1.7km long (Shadow System rebuild reduces it down to ~1.2km in 2044)
-SDF-1 (rebuilt) is ~1.2km long

I have no doubt that you could use the N-V-class Flagship to hide a human space naval capital ship "squadron" (or even "fleet" depending on actual classes involved) inside after its been hollowed out and would have some options for internal carriage organization I would think. The Ikazuchi could be stacked in a 2x2 grid lengthwise (with room to spare) against the SDF-1, which can be done in a 3x1 grid against the N-V Flagship, so that's 12 Ikazuchi inside the hull with room to spare before we even consider width (allow for 3x easily, and is just shy of 4x per the Infopedia). Smaller vessels like the Tri-Star or Garfish just go up from here.

The SDF-3's exo-hull doesn't exactly leave a lot of room under the hood based on the side profile from the size charts. And that is using a rebuilt SDF-1 or the 2044 refit of the SDF-3. I could see some of the smaller class of UEEF ships (Garfish, Horizon, possibly even a Tri-star), but anything like an Ikazuchi or Izumo would be out as they are to long (I suppose you could store the Ikazuchi and Tri-Stars in perpendicular to the SDF-3 depending on its actual width, but you'd be limited in where you can place them). This is if you use the RT.com sizes for the Garfish and Ikazuchi and not the smaller values the GCM OSM has for them (an OSM size comparison chart has the Garfish only slightly larger than a Horizon, Infopedia has it at ~3x, and the Ikazuchi is more than 2x as large in RT as the OSM).

Now, the question is, what does the SDF-3 actually look like? Maybe its a copy of the SDF-1.

I thought that was the goal, to make the SDF-3 look like the SDF-1 (or another friendly) so the Masters wouldn't be quick to shoot first?

I think the refit largely preserves the lines of the original SDF-3 after you remove the exo-hull, the twin booms in the front being all new construction for obvious reasons. The purpose of the exo-hull was deception, but I think it would also offer additional armor.

Also, deploying the armada once the SDF-3 arrives probably entails "rapid scheduled disassembly" of the exoskeleton so the fleet can deploy and then move into action after mecha have been launched to form a screen.

Or the Exo-skeleton is capable of allowing the ships to launch out of bays doors as they already have to allow for the SDF-3's various craft to launch or use various weapon systems. Though as I pointed out above, I'm not sure you can actually get all that much inside based on the size comparison chart given the refit SDF-3 or SDF-1 being inside one.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

One thing to consider, its a curious piece of art that surfaced a few years back (courtesy of Craig Sapp/RTSurfer IIRC) that shows the silhouettes of the "SDF-8", Izumo, Ikazuchi, Garfish and Horizon ships. What's funny is the "SDF-8" is listed as the SDF-3 and its roughly the same size as the Izumo (so around the same size the SDF-1 and Tokugawa-class Medium Battleship). Its possible, however unlikely, that the SDF-3 is, in fact, this design and that the bridge (since its basically the same structure) is where it is located. The only problem might be how the lineart is interpreted as it appears the Zentraedi Battlecruiser's booms split apart at some point (there appears to be a gap between them). Curiously, the rear of the Command Deck structure has what appears (in some of the lineart) to be the "louver" engine cowlings that match the "SDF-8" (which are basically copied from the Zentraedi Nupetiet-Vernigtzs Command Battleship).

[ShadowLogan]

So I was curious about how many ships you could fit inside an exo-hull. The Following though is a quick estimate, and I treat all ships involved as basic rectangular cubes for simplicity, this does means all ships are given more volume than necessary, the ones considered as the "exo-hull" should have their results considered to be 1/2 that value for quick simplicity to account for any negative space.

While I don't think the SDF-3 has official width and height AFAIK, in the RT.com Size comparison chart they show the SDF-3's length for both versions, and they appear to have the same height. Given the height remained unchanged between 2022 and 2044 I will assume the width did not change either (this could suggest the exo-hull did not cover the entire ship OR the refit integrated it into the overall hull for the most part). The 1E PB RPG does have all three dimensions, BUT the length does not line up with the exo-hull length in the RT.com size comparison chart, as such I will assume the proportions are correct and scale accordingly with the 2044 Refit maintaining the same height and width as the exo-hull and as such these values should be considered loose approximations (this gives the SDF-3 a width of ~298m and a height of ~384m). I Took the difference in volumes between the two versions to be what the ship could dedicate to ships it could carry internally. I also calculated the volume of the Zentreadi Flagship and Carrier based on the Infopedia dimensions (this one as it has less negative space than the Flagship and is close in size than any other Zen. Ship on the chart so it might be considered more representative after accounting for the negative space but I am not sure on that).

Looking at the Size Comparison Chart it does look like you might be able to squeeze 2x SDF-3 w/Exo-Hulls into that negative space.

The Results where for the SDF-3 from the Infopedia (using the different volumes for era):
-2 Ikazuchi
-74 Garfish
-631 Horizon
-11 Tri-Star

The Results for the Zentreadi Flagship-class (AFTER 1x SDF-3 2022 class is put inside):
-72 Ikazuchi
-1,869 Garfish
-15,845 Horizon
-277 Tri-Star

The Results for the Zentreadi Carrier-class (AFTER 1x SDF-3 2022 class is put inside):
-27 Ikazuchi
-707 Garfish
-5,996 Horizon
-105 Tri-Star

Now it should be emphasized that both the SDF-3 and Zentreadi Flagship have much more negative space inflating their volumes, so I would only consider 1/2 of the values actually being available in these two cases. The results assume only 1x type of ship is carried and NOT A MIX. The numbers also are rounded down to the nearest whole number (since you can't get a fraction of a ship in).

By Volume (all numbers are rounded to nearest 10th, types omitted are less than 1) you can convert them:
-1x Ikazuchi = 25.9x Garfish or 219.4x Horizon or 3.8x Tri-Stars
-1x Garfish = 8.5x Horizon
-1x Tri-Star = 6.7x Garfish or 57.1x Horizon

Now from a strictly 1E Palladium RPG POV where they flat out state the SDF-3 (and a fleet) was carried inside a Zentreadi Flagship I simplified it down to just the Zentreadi Flagship and REF ships available and used only 1E RPG dimensions so the results here only apply to the 1E RPG Universe. Negative space is still an issue.

After removing an SDF-3 and putting inside a Zentreadi Flagship the remaining volume could hold (all dimensions assume 1E RPG dimensions):
-184 Ikazuchi
-19,178 Garfish
-72,076 Horizon-T
-32 additional SDF-3s
-25,284 GMUs (which in 1E RPG had space propulsion)
-28,168 Z-3 Cyclops

While the GMU and Z-3 are not intended to act as warships, they can certainly act as "armed" shuttles unlike the Horizon. As before the Zentreadi Flagship does have negative space to be accounted for, so I would only consider 1/2 the values actually available for simplicity. The numbers listed also assume only one type of ship is carried.

By Volume (all numbers round to nearest 10th, types omitted are less than 1) you can convert them in the 1E RPG:
-1x Ikazuchi = 104.1 Garfish or 391.2 Horizon-T or 137.2 GMU or 152.9 Z3
-1x Garfish = 3.8 Horizon-T or 1.3 GMU or 1.5 Z3
-1x SDF-3 = 5.6x Ikazuchi or 584.9x Garfish or 2,198x Horizon-T or 771.2x GMU or 859x Z3

[glitterboy2098]

keep in mind, that the ikazichi, garfish, and horizont were all post-tirol designs, according to HG. the SDF-3 would have been accompanied by the tokugawa class battleships and Expeditionary Force versions of the ASC's fleet. (however you want to name them.. banshee/battle/tristar or pulsar/binary/tristar.)

the banshee/pulsar class is only a little bigger than the zentreadi landing craft/re-entry pod (longer, but narrower), and we see a large number of those leaving the round hatches on the back end of a Quiltra Queleual Class carrier/LST, so even without hollowing out such a ship you could dock at least a dozen of the banshee light cruisers in the main hanger of one of those. the battle/binary class is only about twice the size so you could probably dock those in there too without much modification to the zent hull. probably not tristars though.
hollow out the hull though, and you could fit quite a few ships.

mind you, the impression i got was that the sentinels was intending more for the SDF-3's "zentreadi flagship" disguise to be a slight retcon of the size and look of the zentreadi ships since they were trying to avoid direct copies of the SDF:macross IP. (thus why breetai and exodor had such major visual redesigns, and all the macross saga characters got visual makeovers. also why they were using new battle pod and destroid designs, and MOSPEADA veritechs)

since HG seems to have moved away from the idea of going to tirol in a single fold, in favor of a prolonged multi-fold search, the idea of a hollwoed out zent ship to carry the earth fleet may not be viable. instead i'd argue the idea was to disguise the SDF-3 as a zent ship so it could approach the masters empire without immediately being ID'd as an outsider's ship, and to disguise exactly how capable earth is at building ships. perhaps accompanied by a few converted zentreadi warships while the human built ships hung back ready to fold in should fighting break out.

[ShadowLogan]

keep in mind, that the ikazichi, garfish, and horizont were all post-tirol designs, according to HG. the SDF-3 would have been accompanied by the tokugawa class battleships and Expeditionary Force versions of the ASC's fleet. (however you want to name them.. banshee/battle/tristar or pulsar/binary/tristar.)

You won't be able to fit a Tokugawa-class inside the SDF-3 Exo-Skeleton with the SDF-3 still in there. You could fit in 8x Tokugawas into a Zentreadi Flagship (minus space for 1x SDF-3) or 3x into a Zentreadi Carrier (minus space for 1x SDF-3), though you still have to account for the open/negative space on the Zentreadi craft which will reduce the actual number.

While the Infopedia acknowledges the existence of other ASC warships, they don't have any information on them per say. We know they are smaller than a Tri-Star (per Infopedia entry). So one could use the Garfish or Horizon-T or even the Tri-Star as a stand-in for those ships.

It should also be pointed out I am not sure if the "Trojan Shell" gambit is still part of canon (no reference to it in AotSC AFAIK) OR even if when it was conceived (1986) that they would be re-using NG or TRM saga designs and if so which ones OR if the idea was just a pre-production concept that was dropped (it wasn't used in the Novels-universe) but still used in the 1E RPG.

mind you, the impression i got was that the sentinels was intending more for the SDF-3's "zentreadi flagship" disguise to be a slight retcon of the size and look of the zentreadi ships since they were trying to avoid direct copies of the SDF:macross IP. (thus why breetai and exodor had such major visual redesigns, and all the macross saga characters got visual makeovers. also why they were using new battle pod and destroid designs, and MOSPEADA veritechs)

I may have my impressions colored a bit here by the Novels-take, and I do agree about the IP rights being an issue even back then. However, it is possible they where going for a class of ship known to be used by the Masters (given the lack of recognition in TRM saga an old out-dated design). There is one craft in TRM saga that IMHO has a pre-crash "SDF-1" vibe going for it in terms of basic layout (though it doesn't have the twin booms or twin engine block but it does have that angled feature of the front booms and the raised "bridge" tower), though it might be stretching things ("Half-Moon").

[Sambot]

Wasn't the idea of making the SDF-3 look like a Zentraedi ship, especially Zor's ship, was so that it could approach Tirol close enough to make contact without getting immediately blasted? It does look like how Zor's ship looked in the Comico prequal graphic novel.


Where does the RPG say that the SDF-3 carried an entire fleet inside it? I've looked but I'm not seeing it.

In the animation it says they used everything usable from the SDF-1 and SDF-2 and then wrapped it in a Zentraedi Cruiser. To me that sounds like the inner and outer hull of a submarine. Not that the SDF-3 is carrying a fleet inside.

I have used Zentraedi hulls to carry other ships but they were yard ships and transports for ocean vessels. They weren't something that could deploy capital ships in a hurry. I suppose a big Zentraedi ship could combat deploy human sized capital ships, bomb bay door style but I can't see capital ships in a hanger like fighter planes. It'd take too long for them to deploy with tugs or maneuvering thrusters as they can't use their main engines without torching whatever is behind them. And I'm not sure why anyone would want to carry capital ships that way. If the capital ship is docked inside another ship, it can't fire it's weapons or launch it'd fighters. The only time you'd want the big ship inside a bigger ship is to repair/refit/and restock it.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Not that the SDF-3 is carrying a fleet inside.

Welp, the outline for the Sentinels Tv series and the Toy Fair Promo Video both say there is a fleet inside the exoskeleton.

[ShadowLogan]

Not that the SDF-3 is carrying a fleet inside.

Welp, the outline for the Sentinels Tv series and the Toy Fair Promo Video both say there is a fleet inside the exoskeleton.

The outline for the Sentinels TV series can be found in IINM, Robotech Art 3.

Toy Fair Promo Video on Youtube (2 parts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r2SZhAvDx8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r2SZhAvDx8

@3:20-30seconds in the first one, a bit after that you even get a comment about the size of the hold in question (laced with obvious exaggeration but)
@3:20-25seconds in the second one

[xunk16]

Toy Fair Promo Video on Youtube (2 parts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r2SZhAvDx8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r2SZhAvDx8

The first of these links should have been : https://youtu.be/4uFOLQJ2PIk

[ShadowLogan]

Toy Fair Promo Video on Youtube (2 parts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r2SZhAvDx8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r2SZhAvDx8

The first of these links should have been : https://youtu.be/4uFOLQJ2PIk

Thanks. Not sure what happened when I copied the links.

[Sambot]

Not that the SDF-3 is carrying a fleet inside.

Welp, the outline for the Sentinels Tv series and the Toy Fair Promo Video both say there is a fleet inside the exoskeleton.

Define fleet. I don't think it'd be a fleet of capital ships. It would be too much trouble to deploy them in a combat situation. It'd be like all the starships in Space Dock trying to get out at one time. One door, one ship at a time. And other ships couldn't be to close or they'd get hit by the engine blast. Plus by the time the ships got deployed and could deploy their craft and weapons the enemy would already be upon them. If it's a fleet of anything, it's a fleet of fighters, destroids and battloids.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

It would be too much trouble to deploy them in a combat situation.

Okay, again, the SDF-3 is inside the exoskeleton of a Zentraedi Battlecruiser. The animation shows its literally a shell being constructed AROUND something and that the beneath the plating its hollow inside. I do think SECTIONS of the shell ARE independently capable of being operated, namely the "arms" (being a sort of Zentraedi-ified ARMD) and the Command Deck (which has an engine at its rear, meaning its possibly a "Captain's Yacht").

[Sambot]

It would be too much trouble to deploy them in a combat situation.

Okay, again, the SDF-3 is inside the exoskeleton of a Zentraedi Battlecruiser. The animation shows its literally a shell being constructed AROUND something and that the beneath the plating its hollow inside. I do think SECTIONS of the shell ARE independently capable of being operated, namely the "arms" (being a sort of Zentraedi-ified ARMD) and the Command Deck (which has an engine at its rear, meaning its possibly a "Captain's Yacht").

Or it could be we're just seeing the outer hull in the same way that submarines have an inner and outer hull. I'm also not convinced it's hollow. I see a lot of cables or pipes along with some rectangular object as a section of armor is being moved into place. Nor am I convinced that the command deck has an engine to the rear. If it is an engine, it's less Captain's Yacht and more emergency escape vehicle for the command crew.

I also don't think each section is independently operated in the way the ARMDs or Daedalus and Prometheus were. I'm sure they have their own back up power and other systems but those would be to maintain power and life support in the event of an emergency. Not so each limb could go merrily about on it's own. Each section would need drive engines for that. Having each section being independently operated would also reduce the the SDF-3 s carrying capacity it could.