Magic weak, tech is better

[Cyberjock1]

I’ve played for years and no matter how many times I try a magic occ I find them to be all very weak in comparison to tech. At low levels they don’t have any spells that compete with a solid energy rifle and they never seem to have enough ppe really to use higher level spells. At low levels they seem to have to hide around the tech Allies hoping to get a supportive spell in here and there. I really want to enjoy a good ppe user but can’t seem to get past the tech’s overwhelmingly great dps. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Cyberjock1]

Also I forgot to add that I find the vast majority of spells to be quite lackluster. In other rpgs spells seemed much stronger than here. Perhaps it’s the mdc environment. Anyway thanks all for your thoughts.

[taalismn]

I've always appreciated the industrial food processor efficiency of a good Spinning Blades spell.

[Killer Cyborg]

Is a fish weaker than a squirrel becare fish can’t climb trees?

[Incriptus]

The way I explain it to my players is that being a magic user is like being a martial artist. When it's time to go to war you get a rifle like everyone else.

Ultimately you are correct. You're never really going to match the DPS with tech so my advice is don't try.

When looking at the list of spells focus on those things that tech doesn't do or doesn't do well.
Another piece of advice is to always nag your GM about your distance from a Ley Line.

[darthauthor]

In playing and GM'ing I have found only a handful of spells that are rather powerful compared to tech. However, the caster needs the initiative and their victim needs to fail their save (50% to 75% chance of failing a save).

If the battle field consist of boxing ring or gladiator arena the energy / partical weapon totting shooter is statistically likely to win in a fight to the death with no retreat. If the spell casting player / villain is smart strategically and tactically they will control the battle field and have worked out escapes.
Which means it is a lot harder to play a caster successfully than a Hulk smash charcter or 1st person shooter.
Of course, the GM has to be a tough judge. As the magic user keeps escaping when their armor of Ithan wears down and PPE wear out they have to hit their opponent with a carpet of adhesion and go invisible to run away. While the GM has to remind the Shooter their Energy weapon's Eclip costs 1,500 or so to recharge and the 10 or 20 MD damage to their armor isn't going to repair itself.

Fighters win battles by overpowering their enemies head on.

Spell casters win wars being deceptive, stealthy, running away, cheating with magic, and hitting directly and indirectly with spells.

Out in the field, with 10 MD left on your armor and 4 shots left in your last clip the shooter begins to get cautious. Starts thinking of setting a trap and returning to replenish their armor and weapon clips. They make it and suddenly they are spending 20K in universal credits and starting to question if its worth it.

But its a game, some times people want to play tic-tac-toe instead of chess.

Make your opponent play your game and you win. If the magic user gets the gun nut to chase him to the ley line nexus they have all the PPE they need double the power of their spells. The shooter will run out of ammo before the caster does PPE for repeated Armor of Ithan spells. Its like trying to fight a vampire but without silver, sunlight, water, or wood. You don't. The vampire just gets up again. Suddenly the opponents need to fight smarter, so they do or quit playing the game or want a new character or game so they can play over-powered enough that they won't have to play smart.

[Mack]

And if you want to blend the two, Techno-Wizard items can be absolutely bonkers powerful. Some spells really lend themselves to TW conversions, like Power Bolt or Lightning Arc. Both of those can crank out a ton of damage for low PPE costs. There's other spell combinations that are down right game breaking. (I made a Resurrection device out of a tanning bed that only costs 5 PPE to activate and only 5,000 credits to build.)

Or one of the other magic tricks out there: An Air Warlock can summon a small army of invisible Phantoms and Phantom Footmen, and it only takes a few minutes. With average dice rolls, it's 500+ warriors at his disposal.

[ShadowLogan]

Magic (and Psionics) aren't there for DPS really, even in the Fantasy settings (they fill the role of support/tank). They are more there for that "(Adam West-era) Batman Utility Belt" aspect, you have zero weight smoke grenades (Cloud of Smoke), flares/flashlights (Blinding flash, Glove of Daylight, Lantern Light), climbing rope (Levitation), expanded sensory perception (See Aura/Invisible, Sense Evil/Magic, Detect Concealment, etc), decoys (Heavy Breathing, Fear, Aura of Power, Befuddle, Chameleon, Cloak of Darkness), resistances/immunities (various Resist/Immune), supplies (Create Water, Create Wood, Ignite Fire), etc.

While not a DPS spell, Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net (cheaper & better range) can be used to immobilize an enemy making them easier targets for your allies (or when you switch to tech). Depending on how the GM handles things "Energy Field" could also be used to trap opponent(s) inside and unable to attack anything outside effectively taking them out of a fight temporarily while they try to bash their way out (and could find themselves in a less than desirable tactical position by then), it might also make missile volleys rather expensive for the attacker (if the field doesn't allow damage to transfer to what is inside it when it collapses).

Now ranged options for spells are not going to match a tech ranged weapon (in terms of range and damage), but in terms of melee combat vibro-blades are outclassed by using Frostblade for all but the most powerful Vibro-blades (IINM 4d6MD is not very common). And it has secondary effects (and if fighting someone vulnerable to cold, off hand I've never heard of anything with a vulnerability to vibro-blades).

It is also important to keep in mind there are spells that can negate/negatively-impact tech (Implosion Neutralizer, House of Glass, Energy Disruption, Frequency Jamming, Impervious to Energy). Energy Weapons are the main MD tech option in the realm of ranged combat, but they are completely worthless attacking someone subject to the Impervious to Energy spell.

[hup7]

In my experience and opinion:

Usually the spellcaster's side chooses the range of the combat - with invisibility, chameleon, shadow meld and others or mystic portal, teleport, and so on.

Immune to energy means 90% of high tech weapons are useless. While Armor of Ithan might be the goto it is not the best MDC armor spell, there are plenty of others more PPE to MDC efficient. Magic net and Carpet of Adhesion are so broken good most GMs house rule save vs Carpet. Check Wind Rush: "Anyone caught in the wind is helpless and unable to attack or move forward. It takes an additional melee to recover, and 1D8 melees to gather up all items blown away." So one shot from a wind rush spell and they are helpless for two rounds? Most combats are over in two rounds.

Yes, use of higher spells might rely on TW items (Storm Rifle for Wind Rush) or just magic items - but technology relies on items too. I think you might be playing with a GM that makes tech freely available but TW unavailable?

As pointed out when it comes to hand-to-hand: Lightblade 1d4x10+1 MDC / level, and can be used to parry energy blasts compared to a vibrosword?

And the biggest kicker IMHO - magic out lasts tech. You can only carry so many e-clips, so much rail gun ammo, so many grenades. Magic is limitless. If you are near a ley line - unlimited. I have rarely come close to running out of PPE, mainly because carry batteries, TW weapons that you can recharge over time and other options.

What it really comes down to is the type of game you are playing. Are the players playing coalition soldiers who can refit / resupply when ever they like? Or are they moving from place to place out in the wilderness?

Just as an FYI we have been playing Rifts since its release (we played TMNT and Robotech before that) and in every campaign I have run or played 75% of the players play some sort of magic using character. Even those playing non-magic using roles, usually take minor psi to at least be able to use TW.

Happy gaming, but if you don't like playing magic - don't. Play what your enjoy - we played Robotech for years, pure stompy robot fun.

[darthauthor]

And if you want to blend the two, Techno-Wizard items can be absolutely bonkers powerful. Some spells really lend themselves to TW conversions, like Power Bolt or Lightning Arc. Both of those can crank out a ton of damage for low PPE costs. There's other spell combinations that are down right game breaking. (I made a Resurrection device out of a tanning bed that only costs 5 PPE to activate and only 5,000 credits to build.)

Or one of the other magic tricks out there: An Air Warlock can summon a small army of invisible Phantoms and Phantom Footmen, and it only takes a few minutes. With average dice rolls, it's 500+ warriors at his disposal.

Mac You are a GENIUS! An army of Air Elementals

[darthauthor]

Magic (and Psionics) aren't there for DPS really, even in the Fantasy settings (they fill the role of support/tank). They are more there for that "(Adam West-era) Batman Utility Belt" aspect, you have zero weight smoke grenades (Cloud of Smoke), flares/flashlights (Blinding flash, Glove of Daylight, Lantern Light), climbing rope (Levitation), expanded sensory perception (See Aura/Invisible, Sense Evil/Magic, Detect Concealment, etc), decoys (Heavy Breathing, Fear, Aura of Power, Befuddle, Chameleon, Cloak of Darkness), resistances/immunities (various Resist/Immune), supplies (Create Water, Create Wood, Ignite Fire), etc.

While not a DPS spell, Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net (cheaper & better range) can be used to immobilize an enemy making them easier targets for your allies (or when you switch to tech). Depending on how the GM handles things "Energy Field" could also be used to trap opponent(s) inside and unable to attack anything outside effectively taking them out of a fight temporarily while they try to bash their way out (and could find themselves in a less than desirable tactical position by then), it might also make missile volleys rather expensive for the attacker (if the field doesn't allow damage to transfer to what is inside it when it collapses).

Now ranged options for spells are not going to match a tech ranged weapon (in terms of range and damage), but in terms of melee combat vibro-blades are outclassed by using Frostblade for all but the most powerful Vibro-blades (IINM 4d6MD is not very common). And it has secondary effects (and if fighting someone vulnerable to cold, off hand I've never heard of anything with a vulnerability to vibro-blades).

It is also important to keep in mind there are spells that can negate/negatively-impact tech (Implosion Neutralizer, House of Glass, Energy Disruption, Frequency Jamming, Impervious to Energy). Energy Weapons are the main MD tech option in the realm of ranged combat, but they are completely worthless attacking someone subject to the Impervious to Energy spell.

Very Thorough ShadowLogan

I temporarily forgot about "Impervious to Energy" which makes a caster virtually invulnerable to the primary weapons of CS and most mercs.

True tech weapons have like 10 times better range but that really should NOT be a factor unless one is in wide open flat plains areas. Humans can't see that far and our view, in the wilderness, is consistently obstructed by trees and such. Unless a guy is shooting everyone they see from a sniper scope (and that gets expensive fast) they wait to ID them as hostile or not (as long as they look human or humaniod from a distance)

IF hostile, most CS squads / platoons and even mecr companies will keep someone with sixth sense in their ranks to warn them if they are in danger.

Given its Rifts "Earth" in a flat plain or canyon with a clear line of sight, a person can see 3 miles. Unless you have a super-scope, Crazy eyes, or bionic eyes you see a speck in the distance. Example, a ship out at sea, a car off in the horizon of the desert, etc.

When it comes to forests it depends on how dense it is, lighting conditions, if the person/vehicle is noisy, colorful bright, and moving around a lot. A few adventurers quietly walk in MD sort of camo armor, off trail, surrounded by crickets or such making insect noices with trees being brushed by the occastional breeze is kind of hard to notice them if one is not so close they can easily hear them.
IF a guy shouted at the top of his lungs his voice might be heard 2 km or 1.25 miles. Gun shoots carry farther. While a normal male human conversation voice in still air unobstructed is 180 m or 590 ft. What then if they are not talking? Hearing footsteps also varies by what one is walking on and footwear. Guessing 10 to 20 meters or 60 feet.
When you are that close spells really are within range. Then it is a question if one gets the drop on the other or if it is like a quickdraw.

In the wild, its really like everyone has invisibility until you get close enough. Again, what that close enough is, varies by lighting and obstruction.

[Mack]

And if you want to blend the two, Techno-Wizard items can be absolutely bonkers powerful. Some spells really lend themselves to TW conversions, like Power Bolt or Lightning Arc. Both of those can crank out a ton of damage for low PPE costs. There's other spell combinations that are down right game breaking. (I made a Resurrection device out of a tanning bed that only costs 5 PPE to activate and only 5,000 credits to build.)

Or one of the other magic tricks out there: An Air Warlock can summon a small army of invisible Phantoms and Phantom Footmen, and it only takes a few minutes. With average dice rolls, it's 500+ warriors at his disposal.

Mac You are a GENIUS! An army of Air Elementals

To be more precise, an army of Phantom Footmen.

Spoiler:

First summon a major Air Elemental. (Might be a low chance of success depending on the character's level, but this gives the most absurd result). A major Air Elemental can summon 4D6 minor Air Elementals (Dark Conversions, p108). On average 14 arrive.
Each minor Air Elemental has 1D4x100 PPE, for an average of 250 PPE. With that, each minor can summon 8 Phantoms (level 5 Air spell) for a total of 112 Phantoms.
Each Phantom can summon 5 Phantom Footmen (level 4 Air spell) for a total of 560 Phantom Footmen.
Back to our major Air Elemental. He's got 4D6x100 PPE, for an average of 1400 PPE. With it, he can summon another 46 Phantoms, who in turn summon another 230 Phantom Footmen.
Totals:
- 1 Major Elemental
- 14 Minor Elementals
- 158 Phantoms
- 790 Phantom Footmen

And they are all invisible, flying, MDC, with supernatural strength.

Now, they burned all their PPE with the summoning, so you could cut the numbers down if you wanted to save some PPE for spellcasting. And this trick relies on successfully summoning a Major Elemental. Smaller results are possible if a Minor is summoned (which is more likely to be successful). At the low end, a Warlock could summon a Phantom himself (and then get 5 Footmen) to create a small squad in seconds.

Another trick is that a Phantom should be able to freely donate it's PPE to the Warlock. Per RUE, the Warlock would get 70%, or 70 PPE in this case. So spend 30 PPE to summon the Phantom, get 70 PPE, then dismiss the Phantom... net gain of 40 PPE. Repeat until your PPE is full.

[ShadowLogan]

And if you want to blend the two, Techno-Wizard items can be absolutely bonkers powerful. Some spells really lend themselves to TW conversions, like Power Bolt or Lightning Arc. Both of those can crank out a ton of damage for low PPE costs. There's other spell combinations that are down right game breaking. (I made a Resurrection device out of a tanning bed that only costs 5 PPE to activate and only 5,000 credits to build.)

Or one of the other magic tricks out there: An Air Warlock can summon a small army of invisible Phantoms and Phantom Footmen, and it only takes a few minutes. With average dice rolls, it's 500+ warriors at his disposal.

TW is certainly capable of bonkers powerful stuff, stuff that wouldn't ordinarily be practical for combat since you can "tweak" spell effect parameters with or without the Spell Chain and Device Level that is not necessarily "tweakable" for regular casters. RUE sites an example of tweaking "Carpet of Adhesion" so that it is not as sticky, but lasts longer than it normally would to give tires better traction that doesn't utilize spell chains, and the description of how "Firebolt" spell can be used as a blade in a TW device thanks to the Spell Chain involved. Device Level also tweaks the power of the spells involved if there are any per-level aspects to consider.

Which can make for some interesting ideas in terms of spell applications that a regular mage can't duplicate (or do so easily). Turn "Giant" spell into an offensive weapon, make "Annihilate" practical for combat (Level 14 spells have long windup times, not applicable for TW). And "Annihilate" might make for a crazy powerful TW Gun or TW "energy" blade (like TW Flaming Sword, but with Anti-Matter).

[Blue_Lion]

Matching up one strength to another's weakness does not prove weakness.
Damage is not magic strength.

Lets say there is a fight between two humans 1 is a tech user in MDC body armor 100MDC with a laser rifle, plasma weapon and ion pistol, the other is a mystic knight armed only with a TW laser pistol in his birthday suit. Who would win?
See not fair fight the magic user (mystic knight) will win hands down because he is immune to energy.
Damage is not the strength of magic, people forget magic users have access to Tech for damage, but their spells often make them the masters of guerilla warfare.
Magic can pull in things that tech has no counter to, magic can hide better than tech, magic can increase survivability, magic can counter some categories tech.

Magic is not weak; magic is just a different tool set.
Tech may have more DPS and MDC than magic, but magic can do things that tech can't.

Damage is a poor measure of over all strength for magic.


You want a unit with high MDC and damage go with RPA users.
You want to stop the CS from flying in troops with death head transport.- you need a spell caster to summon storms. No air movement reduced visibility cs has to fight with what is on the field.
You want the enemy to not find your bunker, illusionary forest.

Magic might require more thought than tech to make work but it is a thinking persons tool. -If you have not found ways to leverage magics strength that is kind of on you.

[darthauthor]

Well written Blue_Lion,

"Magic is not weak; magic is just a different tool set. Tech may have more DPS and MDC than magic, but magic can do things that tech can't.
"Damage is a poor measure of over all strength for magic."

It takes more know how to play a spell caster. Played wisely they are more likely to win a war of attrition or support a society /adventure group logistics needs.

Throughout history thousands have died or at least lost their feet or starved and gotten sick because of the difficulties of the envirenment and lack of hygine, supplies, water, wildlife, etc.

War or no war, in the field spells like "Cleanse" keep people from infection and demoralization.
"Sustain" saves a fortune in food and water, weight / cumbersomeness.
"Armor of Ithan" is invisible, weightless, noiseless and renewable. People can travel "Light" and have no fear of losing or damaging their armor
"Heal wounds" in the field is instant and insures no infection.

The key strategy is to use hit and run tactics with the goal of damaging the enemies equipment, tech, vehicles, and weapons.
The CS or whatever tech wielding opponents become caustious, aggressive in their lookout for attacks and in their retaliation. Which, I believe comes down to numbers. The side that can keep churning out and taking and holding ground will win in the long run.

[Killer Cyborg]

In my experience and opinion:

Usually the spellcaster's side chooses the range of the combat - with invisibility, chameleon, shadow meld and others or mystic portal, teleport, and so on.

Immune to energy means 90% of high tech weapons are useless. While Armor of Ithan might be the goto it is not the best MDC armor spell, there are plenty of others more PPE to MDC efficient. Magic net and Carpet of Adhesion are so broken good most GMs house rule save vs Carpet. Check Wind Rush: "Anyone caught in the wind is helpless and unable to attack or move forward. It takes an additional melee to recover, and 1D8 melees to gather up all items blown away." So one shot from a wind rush spell and they are helpless for two rounds? Most combats are over in two rounds.

Yes, use of higher spells might rely on TW items (Storm Rifle for Wind Rush) or just magic items - but technology relies on items too. I think you might be playing with a GM that makes tech freely available but TW unavailable?

As pointed out when it comes to hand-to-hand: Lightblade 1d4x10+1 MDC / level, and can be used to parry energy blasts compared to a vibrosword?

And the biggest kicker IMHO - magic out lasts tech. You can only carry so many e-clips, so much rail gun ammo, so many grenades. Magic is limitless. If you are near a ley line - unlimited. I have rarely come close to running out of PPE, mainly because carry batteries, TW weapons that you can recharge over time and other options.

What it really comes down to is the type of game you are playing. Are the players playing coalition soldiers who can refit / resupply when ever they like? Or are they moving from place to place out in the wilderness?

Just as an FYI we have been playing Rifts since its release (we played TMNT and Robotech before that) and in every campaign I have run or played 75% of the players play some sort of magic using character. Even those playing non-magic using roles, usually take minor psi to at least be able to use TW.

Happy gaming, but if you don't like playing magic - don't. Play what your enjoy - we played Robotech for years, pure stompy robot fun.

Exactly.

Well said.

In addition, or to expand, "Magic is weak" is based on a rather absurd idea that a person can or should have only one or the other.
Sure, the CS is Tech Only.
But all mages start with tech gear, armor, and/or weapons, and are stated to NOT be particularly prejudiced against technology, except to some degree in some places like Dweomer.

"Magic is weak" is nonsense because when a guy with EBA and a laser rifle fights a guy with EBA and a laser rifle who's invisible and/or can fly, the guy who cannot turn invisible and cannot fly is at a disadvantage.
"Magic is weak" is nonsense because comparing a fully armed and fully armored tech-only opponent against a naked mage who lacks any armor and weapons is NOT a fair fight, but it's still a heck of a lot more fair than a naked and unarmed/unarmored tech-only guy vs a naked and unarmed/unarmored mage who has the power to call down mega-damage lighting from the sky that automatically strikes the target with enough force to kill a normal human 3-10 times over.

It is nonsensical to compare magic to technology as if they were the same sport in the same arena.
A mage using bare hands and a few words can fly, teleport, turn invisible, warp a person's mind, create sustenance out of thin air, conjure or banish monsters, create light or darkness, or rip open the fabric between dimensions.
That is not, by any standard, "weak."

If magic doesn't do the things you want it to well enough for your tastes, then you're trying to use the wrong tool the wrong way for the wrong job.
The problem is primarily with the user, not the tool.

[darthauthor]

Love the quote,

"The problem is primarily with the user, not the tool."

[rogerd1]

I’ve played for years and no matter how many times I try a magic occ I find them to be all very weak in comparison to tech. At low levels they don’t have any spells that compete with a solid energy rifle and they never seem to have enough ppe really to use higher level spells. At low levels they seem to have to hide around the tech Allies hoping to get a supportive spell in here and there. I really want to enjoy a good ppe user but can’t seem to get past the tech’s overwhelmingly great dps. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Yes, magic is fundamentally terribly designed.

Fix for you-

Split magic in Cantrips, and Spells.

Cantrips cost 1 PPE to use, these are essentially Utility spells along the lines of: Blinding Flash, Cleanse, Cloud of Smoke, Dim, Fingers of Wind, Jam, Lantern Light - these are just some examples I was going to use in one of my games.

So why have I ignore Globe of Daylight? Well as it harms vampires, it is not a utility spell.

Spells cost in PPE = Level, these start at level 2. I would be inclined to slim them down in ten levels, eleven being legendary. This puts wizards back in the game.

EDIT: I am in the process of working out how to create a Shaping effect, such that you could have someone with Fire magic, and every use would require it be Shaped for effect. This is definitely WiP.

[NMI]

I enjoy using the PPE channeling rules found in Rifter #21.I thought they made it into RUE, but I could be wrong.

[Grazzik]

So, thought I'd try an experiment this weekend. Direct combat: Lizard Mage (12th LLW/8th Temporal Warrior) vs six heavily armed Kreeghor warriors using tech.

Early on, the Lizard Mage feigned weakness to lure the Kreeghor in and, as they charged, let loose with fire bolt after fire bolt. The Kreeghor got themselves sorted and started to pummel the Lizard Mage with heavy pulse rifles. The Lizard Mage was losing badly after a few rounds despite heavy use of magical Armor of Ithan, as the damage and the knockdown effects from critical hits started to add up. Then, the Lizard Mage started to use the Time Slip spell to pop in and out of the fight and buy the extra time to cast a few Magic Warrior spells. Within a couple rounds the Lizard Mage was commanding a team of disposable Magic Warriors that helped distract the Kreeghor enough for the Lizard Mage to turn the tide of the fight. Ultimately, the Lizard Mage used the Magic Warriors as a screen from behind which fire bolts and call lightning could be levied against the Kreeghor.

In the end, the Kreeghor were torn apart, but I noted the Lizard Mage stopped taking serious damage as soon there was something else for the Kreeghor to shoot. I'm sure that even if the number of Kreeghor were tripled, IF the Lizard Mage survived the initial onslaught to get into using the Time Slip and Magic Warrior spells, the Lizard Mage most likely would have still succeeded. However, the initial onslaught of weapons fire is incredibly difficult to withstand as a mage. The only thing that saved the Lizard Mage in this instance is their high MDC.

The lessons
1. Mages need to use tactics that prevent coordinated enemy fire and find ways to get those higher level spells cast. Technology gives a strong and possibly overwhelming first strike advantage, but once distracted or diverted away from the mage, tech opponents can be cut down one by one.
2. Knockdown effects were the killer here as they chewed up attacks and prevented spells that required multiple actions to cast.
3. Low level human mages have no hope in direct combat - run away or surrender!

[rogerd1]

The lessons
1. Mages need to use tactics that prevent coordinated enemy fire and find ways to get those higher level spells cast. Technology gives a strong and possibly overwhelming first strike advantage, but once distracted or diverted away from the mage, tech opponents can be cut down one by one.
2. Knockdown effects were the killer here as they chewed up attacks and prevented spells that required multiple actions to cast.
3. Low level human mages have no hope in direct combat - run away or surrender!

Mages in Palladium are fairly weak, other than a few assorted tricks. Thing is fluff states that mages think it is superior but if someone can just blow you to hell with a handgun even the thickest head magic-user would be forced to reconsider their occupation.

[Grazzik]

The lessons
1. Mages need to use tactics that prevent coordinated enemy fire and find ways to get those higher level spells cast. Technology gives a strong and possibly overwhelming first strike advantage, but once distracted or diverted away from the mage, tech opponents can be cut down one by one.
2. Knockdown effects were the killer here as they chewed up attacks and prevented spells that required multiple actions to cast.
3. Low level human mages have no hope in direct combat - run away or surrender!

Mages in Palladium are fairly weak, other than a few assorted tricks. Thing is fluff states that mages think it is superior but if someone can just blow you to hell with a handgun even the thickest head magic-user would be forced to reconsider their occupation.

Agreed. One thing I left out by mistake was that I used a Rifts Lizard Mage using CB1r, so had lots of power and MDC. Even still, it was telling that the Lizard Mage still struggled against multiple opponents.

That said, I see where a moderately powered mage (with a smart player) could still figure out a way to delay or distract opponents to buy time. In that sense, the mage could in time mount a good defense and even a powerful offense that are more then tricks. However, you are right in that a low level mage would likely seek out the safety of a Guild or a powerful patron/master that would provide the benefit of safety and guidance until such time as they were truly ready to take on the dangers of the outside world on their own. Even then, a mage would either seek out fellow adventurers or seek to surround themselves with support staff/minions/worshipers.

[rogerd1]

Agreed. One thing I left out by mistake was that I used a Rifts Lizard Mage using CB1r, so had lots of power and MDC. Even still, it was telling that the Lizard Mage still struggled against multiple opponents.

That said, I see where a moderately powered mage (with a smart player) could still figure out a way to delay or distract opponents to buy time. In that sense, the mage could in time mount a good defense and even a powerful offense that are more then tricks. However, you are right in that a low level mage would likely seek out the safety of a Guild or a powerful patron/master that would provide the benefit of safety and guidance until such time as they were truly ready to take on the dangers of the outside world on their own. Even then, a mage would either seek out fellow adventurers or seek to surround themselves with support staff/minions/worshipers.

I need to play test - if I get the time, my tweaks from above for mages. Although I would use a modern setting, that said I don't suppose the setting would matter, whether SDC or MDC.

[Library Ogre]

So, in thinking about magic for Palladium Fantasy, I realized that, during the Age of Light and the Time of 1000 Magics, when PPE level was equal to Rifts, magic was NEEDED, because the technology for MD weapons wasn't there... you NEEDED Fire Bolt and Call Lightning because your arrows did nothing.

Fast forward to Rifts, and similar settings, where magic may be back as an MD force, but it is reaching its limitations... it's hard to invent a better mousetrap, unless you can build a laser mousetrap that incinerates the Mouse Juicer. Technology built that laser mousetrap, and now the once-feared standard mousetrap has limitations. We will now abandon this metaphor before it gets unnecessarily burdened.

The advantages of magic are
1) The Swiss Army Knife. One person can do a number of things pretty well. Your mage can heal you, protect you, spy on the enemy, and blow them up. There are tools that might do any of these better, but there are few tools that can do all of them. If you need additional capability, there's often a spell out there that will do it. If your guy can learn it, then you've got that capability.

2) Recharge and repair. If your Crusader armor gets damaged, you have to find an armorer who can do it, and pay for, at the very least, the materials, and usually their time. If your Armor of Ithan gets damaged, you cast the spell again. If your weapons run out of ammo, you have to wait until you get more. If your mage runs out of PPE, they can not only regenerate pretty much anywhere, but they can borrow yours if you let them. And, with the right spells, they can even do repair on your mundane stuff.

3) Healing. While it can be cost-intensive (PPE/HP and SDC ratio), it's still instant, compared to a medical doctor. With a mage willing to burn through PPE, you can be up on your feet in a day, whereas most doctors will take weeks... and they need equipment to do it. The mage just needs pants, and that's just for propriety's sake... they can actually do it without the pants.

This is somewhat where techno-wizardry comes in. Techno-wizardry is a machine, in the mechanical sense... it takes ONE sort of force and converts it to another sort of force. An electrical engine can be powered for a month on a single Call Lightning. Call Lightning normally blows things up; with the techno-wizardry, it turns that destructive force into a battery for doing work. If you don't know Call Lightning, then a TW electrical engine won't work for you, long term... unless it has a TW converter that takes PPE or ISP and turns them into a Call Lightning spell for the purposes of powering that engine, and then it's rechargeable by everyone with magic or psionics.

You also have spells that draw upon knowledge of physics, like Sub-particle acceleration. That wizard in the Time of 1000 Magics wouldn't even consider using magic to create a particle beam, because he doesn't know what sub-atomic particles ARE. A wizard of Rifts very well might, and will come up with a spell that takes advantage of it.

Spell magic, in general, is not powerful. It is versatile. It is very portable. It won't blow up the bad guys as well as a mini-missile launcher, but it can be in the wilderness for a year with no resupply, carrying only a pair of pants... and the pants are optional.

[Killer Cyborg]

The lessons
1. Mages need to use tactics that prevent coordinated enemy fire and find ways to get those higher level spells cast. Technology gives a strong and possibly overwhelming first strike advantage, but once distracted or diverted away from the mage, tech opponents can be cut down one by one.
2. Knockdown effects were the killer here as they chewed up attacks and prevented spells that required multiple actions to cast.
3. Low level human mages have no hope in direct combat - run away or surrender!

Mages in Palladium are fairly weak, other than a few assorted tricks. Thing is fluff states that mages think it is superior but if someone can just blow you to hell with a handgun even the thickest head magic-user would be forced to reconsider their occupation.

Under what circumstances are you thinking of where somebody can somebody "just blow you to hell with a handgun" if you're a mage?
Specifically, what circumstances are you thinking of where somebody can "just blow a mage away with a handgun" that would not apply equally to most other OCCs in Rifts from Scholars/Adventurers to Men-At-Arms?

If you're picturing the mage unarmored, just standing there in SDC clothing, and somebody shoots him with a Wilk's laser pistol, yeah, he's dead.
So's a CS grunt, a Glitterboy Pilot, a Body Fixer, a Wilderness Scout, and pretty much any other class that doesn't have auto-dodge and/or isn't naturally MDC.

Low level mages have the same odds in combat as anybody else with comparable gear.
Roll up a level 1 LLW.
Roll up a level 1 City Rat.
Roll up a level 1 CS Grunt.
Roll up a level 1 Rogue Scholar.
Roll up a level 1 Mind Melter.

If you think the LLW wouldn't stand a decent chance against any of the others in one-on-one combat, let me know which one and why.

And if you think the LLW wouldn't stand a decent chance against any of the others while on a ley line, definitely let me know which one and why.

[Grazzik]

I presume it's wrt my previous example of the Lizard Mage. Initially, they were heavy outmatched by a squad of Kreeghor with heavy pulse rifles and suffered severe damage. That said, rogerd1 is correct in saying that the the stereotypical attitude of mages is not always warranted when there are clear advantages to using firearms instead of magic, but that is true of many callings... sometimes the real benefits only come to those that persevere until they can achieve a certain degree of mastery. Those who gain that mastery and demonstrate true power then, in turn, become the ideal to which novices aspire.

Killer Cyborg, your question on odds at level 1 is an interesting one. Assuming all have equivalent armor, the Mind Melter has a substantial advantage over all others given the array of super psionics they gain at first level. The City Rat, Grunt and Scholar most likely are distinguished from each other by the skills they have access to (perhaps not a significant factor?) and the Grunt may have access to more powerful weaponry. The LLW is pointed out by canon to be considered one of the more powerful and versatile mages and at level 1 has powerful abilities on a LL, but wrt delivering damage while under direct fire is probably still limited to single action spells (level 1-5) due to knockdown effects impacting multi-action spells. As such, a Grunt with a C-27 may well outmatch a LLW in delivering damage. However, previous posters make the point that if LLWs and other mages combine their mage-fu savvy with combat prowess, they'd easily overcome opponents.

[NMI]

I once took out a Glitterboy armor/pilot with a 1st level Earth Fusionist. The team got the to GB to fire at them. The moment he sank his pylons into the ground, I had the Fusionist turn the ground around it into the consistency of quicksand/swampy mud. With the weight of the Glitterboy, it pretty much sank down right away and fast. My next action was to turn the earth around it into the consistency of concrete or as close to that as I could.

Good times.

[darthauthor]

Great Posts,

Library Orge, Killer Cyborg, & Grazzik

All with greast insights.

Points Made:

Anybody can be killed: Spell Caster, Man at Arms, Adventurer if Directly attacked with "enough" firepower (greater numbers and damage dealing weapons).

I feel a lot of whether or not a Spell Caster should fight, hide or run away has to do with the circumstances.

If magic loses to "tech," in a fight, it is by dice rolls or the lack of strategy of the player.

In a fight, its more about "HOW" a spell caster uses magic.

Besides, a spell caster does not have to use magic. They CAN use Energy Rifles just like everyone else and MD body armor.

While a CS grunt can do a lot of damage with their laser rifle, why would any smart person fight their opponent on their enemies terms?

It reminds me of some old videos pitting a boxer vs a wrestler:

1. They had a wrestler fight a boxer under the rules of boxing. The wrestler put on boxing gloves and boxed. So the Boxer boxed but the wrestler could NOT wrestle. He had to box. He lost.

2. The other. Muhammad Ali vs. Antonio Inoki (pro wrestler) in June 26, 1976.
The majority of the fight saw Inoki on his back kicking Ali's legs 107 times uninhibited by the referee (due to a particular rule negotiated shortly before the fight)

In these examples, how you fight your opponent matters more then IF they are stronger than you.

The power of the magic user, in my mind, is their freedom of options. They can use BOTH magic and an Energy rifle (before, during and after they run out of PPE).

Why limit yourself?

Especially when you are fighting for your life.

Compared to a CS grunt, a spell caster, as both level up, gains more PPE, spells, and the spells grow in range, damage, etc. So statistical the magic user should be favored the higher level they become vs someone of the same level who can't use magic.

An energy weapon does the same damage whether one is 1st level of 6th and both a spell caster and Man at Arms can use them.

Over all, a Ley Line Walker, casting invocations only with spells 1st thru 4th level should win one on one fights with a CS grunt.

IF I had to fight directly:

Round 1. Make myself "Invisibility: Simple". Boom. my tech opponent 1st person shooter is -10 to hit me. While I can still cast spells.

NEXT. "Carpet of Adhesion" even "IF" they make their save they can't go anywhere for 2d6 melee rounds.

Round 2. Run around behind them. Cast "Magic Net" (7) twice per round until it "works"

Round with target in "Magic Net"

They are helpless to attack or defend. Walk up to them, draw my Energy Pistol/Rifle and shoot.

That or hit them with neural mace until they are knocked out and take them prisoner.

Of course, I could always lose the initiative and get shot first with a natural 20 but the odds don't favor it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I presume it's wrt my previous example of the Lizard Mage. Initially, they were heavy outmatched by a squad of Kreeghor with heavy pulse rifles and suffered severe damage.

Mostly, what I took issue with was Lesson 3: "Low level human mages have no hope in direct combat - run away or surrender!"

That said, rogerd1 is correct in saying that the the stereotypical attitude of mages is not always warranted when there are clear advantages to using firearms instead of magic, but that is true of many callings... sometimes the real benefits only come to those that persevere until they can achieve a certain degree of mastery. Those who gain that mastery and demonstrate true power then, in turn, become the ideal to which novices aspire.

Well, that's the thing.
The "stereotypical attitude of mages" isn't what it's cracked up to be.
The stereotype in Rifts only comes from one main place:
An opinion piece by Hugh King that was published in the Rifter, and again in the BoM, with KS adding little "Yeah, this is the way" type comments."
But if you read that piece, and the comments, I don't think it's really coming out to what most people think.

In the section Wizards should use magic--duh! for example, King writes:
One thing that bugs me about Rifts mages is that it seems a lot of the time, maybe even the majority, mages who are off adventuring are better off relying on technology than their magic, or there doesn't seem to be much reason to use magic. "Hm, I can Fire Bolt that guy eight times completely depleting my PPE, or I can shoot him with my gun and only use my ammunition. Both do the same damage and the gun can shoot twice as far (or more likely, lots more than that). Guess I'll use my gun."
The worst part is, many times this may actually make the most sense, but it detracts from the whole character of the mage. Sure, they can use technology, and they will, but they know magic is superior (or at least they think so), so they will have a very strong tendency to prefer using it over "feeble technology"...

Again, this is an opinion piece by Hugh King, NOT Kevin writing his own personal view.
And my opinion is that Hugh King is wrong about a lot of stuff there.
Yes, mages should see magic as superior, but this does NOT mean that they should always try to use magic instead of technology, and it doesn't mean they need to only use technology with distaste, holding their noses as they do it.
Magic is not "the whole character of the mage."
It's important, but mages should be 3-dimensional characters, not weirdos with a magic fetish who can't enjoy or appreciate anything else.
They should not be one-trick ponies.
Mages are magic users, but they're also low-grade Skill Monkeys. Line Walkers start with 26 skills at first level, with a decent amount of potential variety.
City Rats start with 31 skills, for comparison.
Rogue Scholars start with 34.
Mages aren't too far behind, usually with more skills than Men At Arms, almost always with more skills than Psychics, and usually with a broad range of possibilities compared to MoAs who tend to have a bunch of their skills dedicated just to weaponry and vehicles.

You don't get that range of skills if your only passion in life is Magic.

You don't get that many potential tech skills if you turn your nose up at tech.

Hugh King is--if anybody is--the one detracting from "the whole character," by ignoring the rest of a mage's personality and reducing them to a pointless stereotype.
Having something that makes a character class different does NOT mean that the characters should prize that difference above all else, in all or even necessarily most circumstances.

If you have a Rogue Scholar, for example, he might well be a "man of intellect" who thinks that violence is vulgar, and he might well prefer to use his intellect over any means of direct violence.
This does NOT mean that Rogue Scholars should prefer spouting lectures over pulling and firing a laser pistol after initiative is rolled.
That kind of expectation would be absurd, just as it would be absurd to expect Vagabonds to want to resolve all situations with Eyeball A Fella, or for a Glitterboy Pilot to try to solve every problem with his Boom Gun, even when that solution didn't make much sense.

Mages should use magic, duh.
But only when it makes sense, duh.
Magic is a tool, and while it might be a preferred tool, that doesn't mean anybody with any brains is going to use the tool in inappropriate ways in times of emergency when they have other tools that would do the job better.
Personally, my favorite tool overall is the machete. I've used them all the time, for all kinds of things, from limbing trees to cutting and splitting firewood, to mowing grass, to blazing trails, and so forth.
I love machetes, and I'm pretty good with them.
But if it's getting dark and I need serious firewood not just kindling and small stuff, and if I have a fueled-up chainsaw with me?
I'm not going to use the machete over the chainsaw.
If I've got 10 acres of lawn to mow, and I'm on or under some kind of clock?
I'm not going to use a machete; I'm going to get a mower, preferably a riding mower, because that's the right tool for that job.

So if your mage is looking at option A) cast Fire Bolt for 4d6 MD, and option B) Use his JA-12 to fire a 1d6x10+10 MD burst?
Well, that depends on the situation.
If it's not a matter of life and death, and the mage doesn't expect to need all his PPE for more important stuff later, sure, Fire Bolt away. Have a literal blast!
Especially if every laser blast you fire from your rifle is going to cost you money to recharge later, and even more especially if you don't know when the next opportunity to charge that E-clip will be.
But if the situation is serious, like your life (or your expensive armor) is in jeopardy?
A mage should use the gun every time, without hesitation, remorse, or squeamishness.
Yes, he's trained in magic.
But if he's got WP Energy Rifle, then he's trained in energy rifles too, and presumably he gets some level of joy and/or satisfaction out of using that skill.

Mages should value magic, but value does not equate to fixation on magic as a solution in inappropriate situations.
I value a good machete, but I know when it's simply not the right tool for the job.
For that matter, I know when it's entirely sufficient for the job, but I don't want to sully or damage my blade unnecessarily.
And that's the thing about valuing Magic that King doesn't seem to appreciate: if something is valuable, you do not, should not squander it.

We all agree that versatility is the main power of magic. A mage can pull any number of tricks out of his proverbial wizard's hat, and they can cover a variety of situations, many of which tech cannot necessarily resolve.
So why waste magic on doing things that are better accomplished by technology?
If a mage uses all or most of his PPE chucking Fire Bolts at somebody when he should be using a rifle, the mage is wasting his magic, squandering it, treating his PPE as if it were not a precious resource.
That's the opposite of valuing it.

What if he needs that PPE later, in order to avoid falling to death, or drowning, or hiding via Chameleon or Invisibility?
What if he needs it for something more important, more nuanced, and less vulgar than just blasting energy at somebody?

Part of the character of a mage in virtually every setting that is not a Gauntlet-style video game (or something like 4E D&D which tries to emulate that sort of thing) is specifically that mages are thinkers, and that they tend to budget their use of magic, saving their power for big feats and important things rather than trivia.

How many times in Lord of the Rings do we see Gandalf flat-out cast a magic spell?
Very few, compared to the times we see him use fireworks or intelligence, and when it comes to combat we always see Gandalf us his staff or his sword over magic, unless there's a situation where staff or sword simply won't cut it.
We NEVER see Gandalf fireball or magic missile a goblin, just because he wants to use magic in combat.
What we see consistently is Gandalf using the most efficient, lowest cost means to resolve a problem, saving magic for the problems that cannot be resolved as well through other means.
THAT is the character of a mage, in my opinion.

Now check out what KS says in his note after that bit I quoted from King:
Note From Siembieda: Hugh's exactly right. If a player is looking for a character good at combat and shooting things, a practitioner of magic is NOT the character for him. Mages are for characters who see the beauty and possibilities of magic.

I think most people stop right there, and assume this is KS endorsing every little detail of what Hugh King had said. But when he says "Hugh's exactly right," he doesn't say about which what specifically, and I don't think it's about everything that King said.

KS goes on, and this is the more important part in my mind (broken up for emphasis):
Mages are for characters who see the beauty and possibilities of magic.
Who intend to use the magic for more than blasting their way out of trouble.
The very nature of learning magic means a mage is more learned and scholarly than most other OCCs.
Thus, they use their magic to explore, observe, and learn. Learn things about people, places, culture, society, and so on. Then they use that knowledge and experience in their magic and adventuring. Thus,
they can use their magic as more than a magic weapon.
Sure, they can fight, but they can also magically influence, intimidate and inspire people. They can magically hide and lurk in the shadow. They can help and heal. Fly, travel to other worlds, communicate by magic, penetrate barriers, and do a host of other things.
Being a practitioner of magic, especially a Ley Line Walker, holds tremendous opportunity if the player has the vision to take advantage of it.
Not that there is anything wrong with playing an aggressive, gun-toting, combat-oriented mage. As with all things in role-playing, there are countless ways to play the same fundamental OCC.

King's focus was on mages wanting to use magic above all else, and he puts some focus on the versatility of magic, mentioning using magic for "more than just blasting things," and that's what I think KS is agreeing with, mostly.
KS has always held Rifts up as a "thinking man's game," and he holds mages up as "more learned and scholarly than most other OCCs," emphasizing that they are thinkers, not just blasters.
Not that he minds if somebody wants to play a mage who just blasts things.

People seem to take KS's comments as support for the idea that mages should use magic above all else, for all things, but I think what he's agreeing with is that mages should be a) interested in magic, and b) interested in more than just blasting things.
This does NOT net out as "mages should be interested in blasting things with magic."
This nets out as "Mages shouldn't be primarily interested in just blasting things," with an indication that there's nothing wrong with playing a mage who IS primarily interested in just blasting away in combat, and also that such a mage should probably use guns.
KS doesn't seem to be a "use a spell when a gun will do the job" sort of guy.
He seems to be a "Think, don't just blast" kind of guy who knows that when the situation comes where blasting away IS the right thing to do, you might as well use a gun for that.

Hugh King poses the choice between Fire Bolt and an energy weapon, and I don't see any reason to believe KS would expect a mage to go for Fire Bolt over the energy weapon.
What he would expect, I think, is for a mage to go for Magic Net, or Carpet of Adhesion, or Domination, or any other non-blasting spell over either Fire Bolt or an energy weapon.
And if it somehow came down to just blasting?
Well, there's nothing wrong with a gun-toting mage.

And this is just that one essay. There are plenty of places in the books--even that same book, IIRC--where we're flat-out told that mages don't have a problem using tech.

I mean, KS is the guy who wrote the game of Rifts where all mages started out with tech armor and tech weapons as part of their starting gear.
The armor got nerfed by RUE, but not by a lot.
The weapons are still guns, and I don't see any reason to believe he wouldn't want mages to use them any time it's the best tool for the job.
Which is most combats, unless something more impressive or versatile is needed.

Killer Cyborg, your question on odds at level 1 is an interesting one.

Thanks!


The answer always depends on who the GM is, what house rules they're using, and how they interpret any number of official rules. How spells work specifically, how psionics work specifically, and how combat works specifically, can all turn the tables in one direction or another.

In MY games?
A 1st level LLW is a match for a 1st Level Juicer, in large part because I interpret the rules to allow for Simultaneous Attacks in ranged combat, where many other GMs don't.
Just for example.

Assuming all have equivalent armor, the Mind Melter has a substantial advantage over all others given the array of super psionics they gain at first level.

Hm.
What Super Psionic are you thinking of?

The City Rat, Grunt and Scholar most likely are distinguished from each other by the skills they have access to (perhaps not a significant factor?) and the Grunt may have access to more powerful weaponry. The LLW is pointed out by canon to be considered one of the more powerful and versatile mages and at level 1 has powerful abilities on a LL, but wrt delivering damage while under direct fire is probably still limited to single action spells (level 1-5) due to knockdown effects impacting multi-action spells. As such, a Grunt with a C-27 may well outmatch a LLW in delivering damage. However, previous posters make the point that if LLWs and other mages combine their mage-fu savvy with combat prowess, they'd easily overcome opponents.

So this is where the GM matters, where rules interpretation matters, and where your idea of "how mages should behave" matters.

LLWs start with "light armor," which means that if they go for LLW style armor, they've only got 32+2d6 MDC, an average of 39 MDC, which isn't great.
Personally, at 1st level, I'd probably go with light Crusader Armor instead, for 55 MDC. It gives full mobility, no penalties, and is pretty awesome.
This would mean that every time I cast a spell, I'd have to roll on the tables for "mages wearing artificial armor," but the vast majority of the time, it wouldn't make any significant difference in combat.
The only thing that table really does is waste people's time

Meanwhile, a Grunt will potentially have 100 MDC worth of Heavy Deadboy armor, in which case my mage would be on the short end of things. But if it's an NPC or somebody assigned to light/scouting duty, it could be as low as 50 MDC with old-school Light Deadboy armor.

LLWs get an energy pistol or rifle to start. Might was well start with a JA-12, which has a 1d6x10+10 MD burst.
CS Grunts start with an energy rifle and sidearm, and the best CS energy rifle is probably the CP-50, which has a 6d6 MD pulse.
(This is another place where rules are crucial, because IF the GM interprets a C-29 Heavy Plasma Cannon to be an "energy rifle," then the Grunt could be doing 1d6x10 MD per shot with that, but since it's a "support weapon" and "heavy" and "plasma," I consider that to be a Heavy Energy Weapon.)

So if the Mage and Grunt just stand there blasting away at each other without dodging or anything, at this point...
-The Mage will be inflicting an average of 45 MD per attack, which means the 100 MDC of the Grunt's armor will be destroyed in 3 attacks. Depending on how one interprets the GI-Joe rule when it comes to armor, the Grunt would either die on that 3rd successful strike as the 45 incoming MD overwhelms the 10 MDC so completely that the rule doesn't apply, OR the mage would kill the Grunt on the 4th successful average hit.
-The Grunt will be inflicting 21 MD per attack, needing 3 attacks to successfully destroy the mage's armor. Again depending on the GM's interpretation of the GI Joe Rule, the mage might die on that 3rd attack, or the Grunt might need a 4th attack to finish him off.

This is a pretty even fight, even with a mage who just stands there blasting away.
It pretty much comes down to luck of the dice, who wins initiative, and whether anybody manages to miss their target or rolls unusually high or low damage.
A single Nat 20 could tip the balance combined with even an average roll of the dice, and if either one got a Nat 20 and max damage?
They'd almost definitely win pretty quickly after.

(Same scenario on a Ley Line? Things tip strongly in the Mage's favor because he can put up a Ley Line Force Field around himself for an extra 22 MDC worth of protection that replenishes automatically when destroyed. Depending on how the GM interprets the GI-Joe rule for armor, that right there ends the game. If the "last bit of armor" absorbs the rest of the incoming attack every time, the Grunt literally cannot kill the mage with his energy rifle just by blasting--the force field will replenish back to full before the Grunt can take advantage of the LLW's momentary lack of armor.)

But in that scenario, we're just letting them blast away at each other without dodging or doing anything fancy, and we're assuming that either both people already have their weapons drawn/ready at the start of combat, or that the GM doesn't require characters to spend an action just to draw a weapon.
IF, on the other hand, the characters had their rifles slung over their shoulders, and the GM requires an action to be spent drawing a weapon?
Then things can get more complicated.

If the Grunt wins initiative, and he's not within tackling range of the Mage or something, he'll ready his weapon, most likely his rifle.
But if the Mage wins initiative? Well, he could ready his rifle, BUT his hands are already free, so he can start casting spells (levels 1-5) immediately, on his first attack.
1st level LLWs get 3 spells for each level 1-4 to start.
This provides a lot of options, since any of these spells can be cast in a single attack, and in a one-on-one fight any number of spells can basically win the match for the mage.

If it was me playing the mage, I'd probably lead with Magic Net.
If the Grunt chose not to dodge, then he's helpless for 2 melee rounds. Fight is over.
If the Grunt chose to dodge, but fails, then he's helpless for 2 melee rounds. Fight is over.
If the Grunt chose to dodge and succeeds, then the net misses, but he's used his attack up and it's my turn again.
I could just keep casting Magic Net, because it's doubtful that the dude is going to keep dodging successfully against a strike of 16, but dodging is really his only option because if that spell hits him, he loses.

And of course this same tactic could have been played out in the first scenario, if the mage had his hands free and the Grunt had his rifle out.
The mage could have won that one too, without taking any damage to his armor.
Unless the Grunt got initiative, and shot the mage before a spell could be cast, and the GM interpreted the rules in such a way that getting hit at all meant he could not cast even a 1-action spell until he'd recovered or something, in which case the Grunt would win for sure unless the mage used his rifle.

And also of course, the mage could use Magic Net to win against 2 Grunts almost as easily as 1, if the two were standing close together at the start of combat. The odds of both dodging are pretty low, so at least one would likely get caught in the net, then recover from dodging just in time to have to dodge the next net.

BUT just as of course, if the combatants didn't start within easy Magic Net range, then the mage would have to do some other stuff first.
At longer distances, Invisibility would be a great first spell, because it would give you a way to close in with very little chance of getting shot, then it would be Magic Net time again.
Or if the mage doesn't know Magic Net, he could go with Invisibility followed by Carpet of Adhesion, followed by walking around behind the Grunt and casting some other spell or spells--or using his rifle--to finish the Grunt off.

So... yeah, as you and other posters have said, a savvy mage could easily take down most Men At Arms or Adventurers/Scholars pretty easily using the right spells, as long as they do something other than just blast away with Fire Bolt or whatever.
IF the mage does the more reasonable thing, and he blasts away with the high-quality weapon he is trained with and carries, then his odds against any Man At Arms or Adventurer is pretty even at worst, unless it's something like a Juicer under the right GM who interprets key rules certain ways and such.
IF the mage does the even more reasonable thing, and does something other than just Blasting Away (dealing direct damage), he can win the fight in a single attack or two if the dice don't do anything too weird.
And IF the mage is a Thinking Man, he might not have ended up in the combat in the first place, because he'd have already been traveling around Invisible or something in the first place.

So anyway, back to the "Magic is weak" claim.
As people have pointed out, a mage using zero weapons DOES typically inflict less damage than a person with an energy weapon that costs tens of thousands of credits, and that spends more credits every time it fires.
But I wouldn't call "my empty hands are 1/4-1/2 as good as your anti-armor rifle that can blast through boulders" exactly "weak."
And I certainly wouldn't call "a spell that can take down a human-sized opponent reliably in a single attack" or "a spell that can make you invisible" or any number of other spells "weak" either.

By "magic is weak," the only thing people can reasonably mean is "magic is bad at direct damage blasting, compared to expensive high-tech energy weapons."
And we know that "blasting" is NOT what magic is supposed to be for.
The ability to blast MD energy at people is just a side-gig for magic, a hobby, practically an after thought.
Arguing that MAGIC is weak because it's not great at blasting is like arguing that a boomslang is "weak" because the snake's fangs only leave tiny holes in your body, practically pinpricks.
It just misses the big picture.

[Soldier of Od]

it would be absurd to expect a Glitterboy Pilot to try to solve every problem with his Boom Gun, even when that solution didn't make much sense.

I wish the last Glitterboy player I GM'd for had thought that!



And, also - very good points, well made.

[Grazzik]

Round 1. Make myself "Invisibility: Simple". Boom. my tech opponent 1st person shooter is -10 to hit me. While I can still cast spells. NEXT. "Carpet of Adhesion" even "IF" they make their save they can't go anywhere for 2d6 melee rounds.

I guess it is open to interpretation as it is not explicit in the text, but I've always interpreted that someone needs to step onto the CoA, which means that the carpet doesn't simply appear under the intended target. But that shouldn't be too difficult to make happen in a combat situation.

--------------------------------------------------

That said, rogerd1 is correct in saying that the the stereotypical attitude of mages is not always warranted when there are clear advantages to using firearms instead of magic, but that is true of many callings... sometimes the real benefits only come to those that persevere until they can achieve a certain degree of mastery. Those who gain that mastery and demonstrate true power then, in turn, become the ideal to which novices aspire.

Well, that's the thing.
The "stereotypical attitude of mages" isn't what it's cracked up to be.
The stereotype in Rifts only comes from one main place:
An opinion piece by Hugh King that was published in the Rifter, and again in the BoM, with KS adding little "Yeah, this is the way" type comments."
But if you read that piece, and the comments, I don't think it's really coming out to what most people think.

...

A strong refutation of the article. All valid points. I think we'd agree that it is not in any practical sense an exclusively either/or proposition, as mages should use tech where appropriate. Simply relying on magic alone in the context of direct combat without some degree of sophistication doesn't work or at the very least offers no advantage. However, on reflection, part of the problem isn't explicit text framing up mages eschewing technology, but instead the implied messaging from how magical communities (FoM, Tolkeen, Lazlo, Splynn, etc.) are described as leveraging magic/LL/nexus power, magical vehicles, etc. for a variety of mundane purposes. For example, in BoM (pg 9), KS specifically describes a spectrum with the CS on one end abhorring magic and the FoM on the other abhorring technology. However, these are both extreme fanatics. That said, to a notable percentage of mages, FoM may serve as an ideal to which they aspire to and may adopt the same attitudes. Indeed, the majority of Supernatural beings and CoM are described in their write ups as relying on their own mystical powers, rather than leveraging tech. Mages that interact with them may adopt similar outlooks over time. However, this may work the other way too, as recent books re the Minion War make a point of how demon-kind are learning to adopt technology, even if magic-infused. I just find that this subtext can lend to an underlying assumption or stereotype re a magical culture, even if practical common sense says otherwise. Then again, it all comes down to personal interpretation (and GM fiat).

... I interpret the rules to allow for Simultaneous Attacks in ranged combat, where many other GMs don't.

I agree with this, I don't see any reason why SAs shouldn't be allowed... more realistic when at a notable distance.

What Super Psionic are you thinking of?

Some examples:

Telekinesis - basically take someone's gun from them. No gun, no pew pew. Or pull a grenade's pin while still hooked on their strap...

Telekinetic Acceleration Attack - useful to cause damage, but if the items used are on the other side of the opponent, it can also cause a great distraction making the opponent think that they had been flanked or surrounded.

Psychic Mirage - can make someone think they are dead (like their chest tearing open from the inside and their heart falling on the floor) which causes them to fall unconscious.

Empathic Transmission - perhaps no so impactful, but confusion imparts penalties, including on initiative, that may shift the tide of battle at a pivotal point.

Admittedly, the biggest issue with psionics is range, but at least it is something of an advantage.

The City Rat, Grunt and Scholar most likely are distinguished from each other by the skills they have access to (perhaps not a significant factor?) and the Grunt may have access to more powerful weaponry. The LLW is pointed out by canon to be considered one of the more powerful and versatile mages and at level 1 has powerful abilities on a LL, but wrt delivering damage while under direct fire is probably still limited to single action spells (level 1-5) due to knockdown effects impacting multi-action spells. As such, a Grunt with a C-27 may well outmatch a LLW in delivering damage. However, previous posters make the point that if LLWs and other mages combine their mage-fu savvy with combat prowess, they'd easily overcome opponents.

So this is where the GM matters, where rules interpretation matters, and where your idea of "how mages should behave" matters.

... [Detailed analysis] ...

As people have pointed out, a mage using zero weapons DOES typically inflict less damage than a person with an energy weapon that costs tens of thousands of credits, and that spends more credits every time it fires.
But I wouldn't call "my empty hands are 1/4-1/2 as good as your anti-armor rifle that can blast through boulders" exactly "weak."
And I certainly wouldn't call "a spell that can take down a human-sized opponent reliably in a single attack" or "a spell that can make you invisible" or any number of other spells "weak" either.

By "magic is weak," the only thing people can reasonably mean is "magic is bad at direct damage blasting, compared to expensive high-tech energy weapons."
And we know that "blasting" is NOT what magic is supposed to be for.
The ability to blast MD energy at people is just a side-gig for magic, a hobby, practically an after thought.
Arguing that MAGIC is weak because it's not great at blasting is like arguing that a boomslang is "weak" because the snake's fangs only leave tiny holes in your body, practically pinpricks.
It just misses the big picture.

Can't argue with that; however, it just goes to show how many variables have to be taken into account (and the amount of work) to compare powers/abilities/OCCs. The bolded text pretty much sums it up. Though had to look up what a boomslang is...

[Killer Cyborg]

A strong refutation of the article. All valid points. I think we'd agree that it is not in any practical sense an exclusively either/or proposition, as mages should use tech where appropriate. Simply relying on magic alone in the context of direct combat without some degree of sophistication doesn't work or at the very least offers no advantage. However, on reflection, part of the problem isn't explicit text framing up mages eschewing technology, but instead the implied messaging from how magical communities (FoM, Tolkeen, Lazlo, Splynn, etc.) are described as leveraging magic/LL/nexus power, magical vehicles, etc. for a variety of mundane purposes. For example, in BoM (pg 9), KS specifically describes a spectrum with the CS on one end abhorring magic and the FoM on the other abhorring technology. However, these are both extreme fanatics. That said, to a notable percentage of mages, FoM may serve as an ideal to which they aspire to and may adopt the same attitudes.

Yeah, there's definitely a spectrum with the CS on one side, and FoM on the other.
And in the Rifts Adventure Guide, we find out that there are communities who shun magic or who shun technology specifically because different legends blame one or the other for the Coming Of The Rifts.
But they're more exceptions to the rule, I think.
(Also, it makes little sense for anybody who isn't a mage or technician to even be able to TELL whether something is magic or technology. Most random know-nothings in a village shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a TW Sword and a Vibro-Sword, because from the user end it nets out pretty much the same--assuming the TW sword is rigged for mundanes to use them. But that's a side issue.)

I also agree that Implied messages are a big problem.
On one hand, we get implications that mages turn their noses up at technology.
On the other hand, every mage I can think of off the top of my head starts with tech gear.
We get a lot of mixed signals, and few direct messages.
Heck, even when we get direct messages, they don't necessarily make much sense. When mages were first banned from using tech-based armor, for example, we were not given any clear alternatives, and they still started off with tech armor for their starting equipment.
It wasn't until RUE that we even got the "LLW Concealed Armor," which is only described under LLWs, but is presumably(?) something intended for all mages to be able to start with, I guess?
It's a mess.

Indeed, the majority of Supernatural beings and CoM are described in their write ups as relying on their own mystical powers, rather than leveraging tech.

This is another issue, and that issue comes purely from aesthetics, from Palladium wanting certain things to have a certain feel.
They want a hero arms and armor facing off against a bestial monster who is unarmed and unarmored, at least as a mainstay. They want a reason for giant muscle-bound Hulk-like creatures to SMASH with bare hands and improvised weapons, simply because it would feel different if they showed up in full plate wielding a battle axe.
They want dragons to look like classic dragons, NOT to go into battle wearing dragon barding and carrying a rail gun.
So they add flavor text to explain it, because otherwise everybody would use everything all the time, and Rifts is--I believe--intended to be a MIX of things, not a thing of mixes, if you follow.

... I interpret the rules to allow for Simultaneous Attacks in ranged combat, where many other GMs don't.

I agree with this, I don't see any reason why SAs shouldn't be allowed... more realistic when at a notable distance.

What Super Psionic are you thinking of?

Some examples:

Telekinesis - basically take someone's gun from them. No gun, no pew pew. Or pull a grenade's pin while still hooked on their strap...

Telekinetic Acceleration Attack - useful to cause damage, but if the items used are on the other side of the opponent, it can also cause a great distraction making the opponent think that they had been flanked or surrounded.

Psychic Mirage - can make someone think they are dead (like their chest tearing open from the inside and their heart falling on the floor) which causes them to fall unconscious.

Empathic Transmission - perhaps no so impactful, but confusion imparts penalties, including on initiative, that may shift the tide of battle at a pivotal point.

Admittedly, the biggest issue with psionics is range, but at least it is something of an advantage.

Yeah, Super TK is THE main psychic power that tips the tables in my games, though much depends on interpretation.
The TK powers are phrased vaguely enough that it's not clear exactly how they work. Some people allow Super TK to deal crushing attacks and such. Others don't allow it to pick a person up.
The details matter a LOT with that one.

But in a face off between a Mage and a Mind Melter, if might well come down to initiative, and would definitely come down to how the GM interpreted powers like TK.
If the Melter wins init, and the GM allows him to tk-yeet the mage up into the air, and hold him him there facing the other direction, that might well be Game Over in one attack, for example.

had to look up what a boomslang is...

I had Wild Animal Cards when I was a kid, and fell in love with the name!
Still see the animal referenced in TV and movies here or there, though, most recently in the movie "Bullet Train," I think.

[Blue_Lion]

So, thought I'd try an experiment this weekend. Direct combat: Lizard Mage (12th LLW/8th Temporal Warrior) vs six heavily armed Kreeghor warriors using tech.

Early on, the Lizard Mage feigned weakness to lure the Kreeghor in and, as they charged, let loose with fire bolt after fire bolt. The Kreeghor got themselves sorted and started to pummel the Lizard Mage with heavy pulse rifles. The Lizard Mage was losing badly after a few rounds despite heavy use of magical Armor of Ithan, as the damage and the knockdown effects from critical hits started to add up. Then, the Lizard Mage started to use the Time Slip spell to pop in and out of the fight and buy the extra time to cast a few Magic Warrior spells. Within a couple rounds the Lizard Mage was commanding a team of disposable Magic Warriors that helped distract the Kreeghor enough for the Lizard Mage to turn the tide of the fight. Ultimately, the Lizard Mage used the Magic Warriors as a screen from behind which fire bolts and call lightning could be levied against the Kreeghor.

In the end, the Kreeghor were torn apart, but I noted the Lizard Mage stopped taking serious damage as soon there was something else for the Kreeghor to shoot. I'm sure that even if the number of Kreeghor were tripled, IF the Lizard Mage survived the initial onslaught to get into using the Time Slip and Magic Warrior spells, the Lizard Mage most likely would have still succeeded. However, the initial onslaught of weapons fire is incredibly difficult to withstand as a mage. The only thing that saved the Lizard Mage in this instance is their high MDC.

The lessons
1. Mages need to use tactics that prevent coordinated enemy fire and find ways to get those higher level spells cast. Technology gives a strong and possibly overwhelming first strike advantage, but once distracted or diverted away from the mage, tech opponents can be cut down one by one.
2. Knockdown effects were the killer here as they chewed up attacks and prevented spells that required multiple actions to cast.
3. Low level human mages have no hope in direct combat - run away or surrender!

Pulse rifles so energy weapons of some sort. Is there a rason you did not use a spell like impervious to energy?
Most classes would have trouble with cordinated fire, specially if they are crits happen often.

1 Tech user would have been shooting wild back -6 no bonuses do to the rules for moder weapon profiencies in combat. So 35% hit chance.
2 Knock downs would chewed up tech user making it harder to take down foes. (also the knock down rule is flagged as option and do not think I ever played a game with it. so not a default rule)
3 Your primary choice of spell where wrong for what you faced.



Lets take a look. 1 level 4 ley line walker 84PPE VS 3 CS grunts armed with CP 40s 1 frag grenade each range 100'

initive-
Mage 14
CS grunt 1 -8
CS grunt 2 -17
CS grunt 3 - 11

1st round
CS grunt 2 attacks the mage 3+1 miss
Ley line walker -cast invisibly simple as he is walking. (78 PPE) advances 6 feet
CS grunt 3 shoots where he thinks the mage is 13-6=7 miss.
CS 1 shoots where he thinks the mage is 5 -6= -1 miss
2nd round
CS 2 takes defense position
mage starts casting his big spell impevious to energy
CS 3 takes defensive position.
CS 1 same.
3rd round
CS 2 tries perception to find the mage 11 hears some one whispering in the distance.
Mage finishes casting imp to energy (58 PPE)
CS 3 perception nat 1
CS 1 Perception 9 nothing
4th round
CS 2 perception 10 nothing
Mage full run advances full run. advances 18 feet (76' away perception to notice sighns of his movement now only 10.)
CS 3 percpetion nat 1 (ok the dice hate him.)
CS1 perception 18 -he knows about where the mage is and shoots 16 -6 =10 hit (results are debated -I believe defense spells powers protect everything unless specified othewise, others think it only protects what it says.) going with the worse case 35-17=18MDC left forthe mage.
5th action.
CS 2 Perception 2
mage out of actions
CS 3 10 he locates about where the mage is 20 crit. 17X2=34 mages armor is toast, but no damage to him as he is immune to energy.
CS 1 shoots at where he is tracking the mage. 11-6=5 miss.

next mellee.
1st action.
CS 2 perception 17 attack 19 hits no damage.
mage advances 18 feet 58'
CS 3 perception 2
CS 1 perception 8
2nd action
CS 2 perception 20 attack 4
mage advances 18 feet 40 feet away
CS 3 perception 12 attack 8-6=2. Miss.
CS 1 perception 16 attack 18-6=12 hit no damage.
3rd action.
CS 2 perception 4.
mage advances 18 feet 22 feet away. (perception 8 to guess an attack.
CS 3 perception 18 attack 6-6=0
CS 1 perception 5.
4th action.
CS 2 perception 9 attack 12-6=6 miss.
Mage slows down cast Armor of ithan 48 PPE and takes a 2 foot step.20 feet away.
CS 3 perception 16 throws a frag 8 21MDC mage down to 19 MDC.
CS 1 perception 11, throws frag 10 17 MDC Mage has 2 MDC.
5th action.
CS 2 perception 2
Mage no actions left.
CS 3 shoots 12-6 miss
CS 1 attacks 2-6=lol

now then as you can see even without his own weapon the mage can not be killed until he runs out of impervous to energy.(last bit of protection rule means the last frag can't kill him). If he is on a ley line he can pull in PPE to shred the 3 grunts with magic. The mage is range to use electric arc. But his low PPE means he needs to withdraw if not near a ley line. Basically he can run away, the grunts can try to chase him down but chasing something you can not see would be hard, and the mage has other tools.
Because the mage was moving while invisible I required a perception roll to find his general location to have a chance to hit but shooting something you can't see is shooting wild -6 with no bonuses.
Invisibly simple does not break when the mage attacks.
If like most mages the ley line walker had a energy weapon he could have simply shoot and relocate untill the grunts die.


1 with tactics a mage can deal with larger number. (thinking persons game)
2 the mage is not helpless in direct combat. the tech users are at a disadvantage in this scenerio.
3 mages are not intended to tank damage
4 Mages with their magic and smart tatics can try and control what is happening on the battle.

[lothian]

A lot of people have already weighed in and brought up great points. Magic is not weak. It's only considered weak if you are trying to 'blast' with it. As others have said it offers incredible utility/options and with ley lines a nearly endless resource. It's always better to just bust out a TW gun or a normal gun if you need to blast.

Abuse Invisibility: Simpe. ALWAYS. It should be your go to first action. Then you branch into what others have suggested -- Magic net, Carpet of adhesion, befuddle, etc. You can really snowball after that.

As to our games we always try to have someone as a sensor type. Mind Melters are too ridiculous to not have someone at least be able to detect a psychic around to let them roam free. Since when dealing with psychics there is no way to tell if someone is using them you better hope the mind melter in that earlier scenario isn't going to start bio-manipulation everybody while pretending to surrender. Bursters too as long as they hold off the need to flame bust can start fires etc without any indication they are doing anything out of the ordinary. No wiggling fingers, incantations, etc. Suddenly lots and lots of fire everywhere.

Magic is great! Psychics are great! Abuse both! It's RIFTs!

[Grazzik]

Pulse rifles so energy weapons of some sort. Is there a rason you did not use a spell like impervious to energy?

It was an old build I pulled out that didn't have much combat related spells, so no ItoE. I wanted to see how it would fare just trying to shoot back with no mystical shenanigans. Clearly didn't do well. Meh, worth a try.

Anyway, Impervious to Energy has a hint of munchkin to it that turns me off using it (I realize the irony when speaking of a 12th lvl Lizard Mage build). Still... Also, Invisible: Simple is similarly problematic with not breaking during combat. I don't like making things too easy. Personal preference, I guess.

[Incriptus]

Not standard equipment, but note to self.

Requisition thermal optics for dealing with Invisibility Simple
Back up C5 Pump Pistol for Impervious to Energy

[Blue_Lion]

Pulse rifles so energy weapons of some sort. Is there a rason you did not use a spell like impervious to energy?

It was an old build I pulled out that didn't have much combat related spells, so no ItoE. I wanted to see how it would fare just trying to shoot back with no mystical shenanigans. Clearly didn't do well. Meh, worth a try.

Anyway, Impervious to Energy has a hint of munchkin to it that turns me off using it (I realize the irony when speaking of a 12th lvl Lizard Mage build). Still... Also, Invisible: Simple is similarly problematic with not breaking during combat. I don't like making things too easy. Personal preference, I guess.

So your goal was to focus on magic DPS that has been stated as not the strong suit of magic.
You wanted to check the strength of magic by avoiding what you see as over powered unbalanced abilities?
What was his second magic OCC?

[Blue_Lion]

Not standard equipment, but note to self.

Requisition thermal optics for dealing with Invisibility Simple
Back up C5 Pump Pistol for Impervious to Energy

Not sure thermal optics work the spell says only people with the ability to see invisible can see them.

Although the penalty should have been -9 not -6.

[Orin J.]

looking at it from the persepctive of the GM, my strategey for making magic users feel contributing can be summed up with "magic is only as powerful as it's prep time". magic can do a LOT of stuff nothing else can and used correctly can win you a lot of fights that would not be winnible otherwise, but that requires you to set up a situation where the magic is able to work at full effectiveness so the GM has to be willing to look for angles that might work out. with the average adventuring party, that means 1: you set up a situation for the magic users to take advantage of out of circumstance or 2: you sleezstack the bad guys a bit so they'll fall for obvious stuff.

2 is usually hard to make work, because the players can spot when they're getting conned by the enemies suddenly dropping 60 IQ points when a mage shows up, and 1 is often impossible simply because players will backslide to the path of least resistance, which is a firefight with direct cover. the trick is finding ways to give them enough time before a fight will happen so that when the party ineivitably falls back on that firefight (half the average party's skillset is "gun" if we're honest) the mage already have a few tricks ready in their back pocket. without prep time, their "go-to" skillset is always gonna be very lacking.

unfortunately it's very easy for a GM to make magic powerful because we're able to handwave OUR prep time as something happening behind the curtain but letting the players get good use out of their magic means building them a framework as often as anything, and that's the kind of gamemastering skill you don't learn in books. it's one of those things ol' kev seems to understand but have never been able to explain.

tech will always win out in a contest of sudden surprise action, and if the GM lets things coast on the seat of their pants that's what the game is, magic is only as strong as it's prep time.

[Library Ogre]

I will note, however, that the flexibility of learned magic users (Ley Line Walkers, Shifters) vastly outstrips granted or intuitive magic-users (Mystics, Warlocks). If learning new spells is a matter of levelling up, only, your psi-mystic is going to lag a lot behind those who can learn new spells when they encounter them.

[Killer Cyborg]

I will note, however, that the flexibility of learned magic users (Ley Line Walkers, Shifters) vastly outstrips granted or intuitive magic-users (Mystics, Warlocks). If learning new spells is a matter of levelling up, only, your psi-mystic is going to lag a lot behind those who can learn new spells when they encounter them.

Yes, but only so long as the GM actually does provide the book mages with books and such to learn from.
I've had GMs in the past where I learned to always play intuitive magic users, because the GMs were so stingy or thoughtless when it came to providing loot in the form of new spells, that I needed the guarantee provided by automatically getting spells as I level up.

If a GM is doing things right, you're absolutely correct.

[darthauthor]

Well written people. Enjoyed the read.

Want to ask about how PSIONICS compares with TECH and MAGIC.

Or should I ask, "Psionics vs Tech? Psionics vs Magic?"

I could start another post. I just like some many of what writers have posted here, I thought I would ask here first

[Blue_Lion]

looking at it from the persepctive of the GM, my strategey for making magic users feel contributing can be summed up with "magic is only as powerful as it's prep time". magic can do a LOT of stuff nothing else can and used correctly can win you a lot of fights that would not be winnible otherwise, but that requires you to set up a situation where the magic is able to work at full effectiveness so the GM has to be willing to look for angles that might work out. with the average adventuring party, that means 1: you set up a situation for the magic users to take advantage of out of circumstance or 2: you sleezstack the bad guys a bit so they'll fall for obvious stuff.

2 is usually hard to make work, because the players can spot when they're getting conned by the enemies suddenly dropping 60 IQ points when a mage shows up, and 1 is often impossible simply because players will backslide to the path of least resistance, which is a firefight with direct cover. the trick is finding ways to give them enough time before a fight will happen so that when the party ineivitably falls back on that firefight (half the average party's skillset is "gun" if we're honest) the mage already have a few tricks ready in their back pocket. without prep time, their "go-to" skillset is always gonna be very lacking.

unfortunately it's very easy for a GM to make magic powerful because we're able to handwave OUR prep time as something happening behind the curtain but letting the players get good use out of their magic means building them a framework as often as anything, and that's the kind of gamemastering skill you don't learn in books. it's one of those things ol' kev seems to understand but have never been able to explain.

tech will always win out in a contest of sudden surprise action, and if the GM lets things coast on the seat of their pants that's what the game is, magic is only as strong as it's prep time.

They do not need to drop IQ, set up is not always required providing the mage has the right spells. The right spell can provide a needed bonus to help win, or make fights easier.

it is not always about wining unwinnable fights; simple invisibility provides a good bonus against most foes. CoA can stop enemy movement, magic net tie up a melee monster. The mage needs to look for the best way to use his spells to provide themself and their team mates as much advantage as he can. Well magic may not be a we win button in most fights it can provide a tactical advantage.

[darthauthor]

The way I look at it:

1. Psionics are great for healing others or yourself of SDC damage.
Better than magic. Cheaper and faster than tech.

2. Sensitive Psionics are also superior to Magic when it comes to information gathering (level 1). Tech can also get some great detection with bionic/cybernetic eyes with multi-spectrum optics and amplified hearing.

3. Besides telekinesis Non Super Psionic powers don't do damage or protection. Besides a few immunities and mind block physical psionics are thief and spy abilities; survival in the wild. Magic based immunities are superior in their protection. Tech offers no immunities besides MD armor with environmental seals.

Direct fight blasting away. Tech is the winner against 1st level opponents.
MD armor is better than 1st level Armor of Ithan. Tech wins for defense, except when it comes to immunities.

Magic has Armor of Ithan but at 1st level it is only 10 MD per spell caster level.
Spells level 1 thru 4 just give you Electric Arc and Fire Bolt which is still better then Non-Super psioncs.

Super Psionics:
Bio-Manipulation is Fantastic. Paralysis as long as they fail the save.
Electrokinesis. MD electical attack. Range is terrible but 3d6 MD
Pyrokinesis. Has Fire Ball its 6d6 MD but only at 30 feet
Telekinetic Acc Att. Has range but only 3d6+4 MD. Basically it is a substitute for a energy rifle. Cost so much ISP a mind melter would be out in the 2nd round if not the first.
Psychic Body Field: Basically Armor of Ithan but you can't cast it on others and its 10 MD @ lvl 1

Tech MD armor wins at levels 1 thru 4.
Also, wins the fight if the battles is measured in range, rate of fire, and "ammo supply"

IF Psionics beat Tech its at levels 5 and above.

And they don't beat Magic, except in healing with the exception of restoring limbs and ressurection.

Feels like psychics, at low levels, are support NPCs good for healing SDC damage and investigating like a detective.

With the exception of Bio-Manipulation, Telekinesis, and Telekinetic Force Field they are not any more useful during battle than a non-pyschic with a energy rifle and MD armor. Which they can do just not with the stats of a crazy, juicer or such who would get extra Attacks per melee, auto dodge and such.

They have a few tricks up they can pull that seem cool but NO one I have ever played with or heard of has used mentally possessing others or Telemechanics or Machine Ghost.
Mind Bond is unique and super superb at getting quick intel.

[Mack]

If you're talking about combat in the wilderness, then yes, psychics fall behind.

However, if you're talking about adventuring in an urban environment, where folks are not walking around armed & armored, then psychics are the bees-knees.

[darthauthor]

If you're talking about combat in the wilderness, then yes, psychics fall behind.

However, if you're talking about adventuring in an urban environment, where folks are not walking around armed & armored, then psychics are the bees-knees.

Your GM and play style is more mature and realistic.

I had not considered city environments.
Players visiting Lazlo and such are pretty well behaved except when gambling.

Merc Town is is little different

But I must admit you are right.

I'd imagine that would also be true for spell casters.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Where Tech is weak, Magic is stronger.

[Library Ogre]

1. Psionics are great for healing others or yourself of SDC damage.
Better than magic. Cheaper and faster than tech.

I don't think I can agree with this statement.

From the RUE, a few healing spells:
*Negate Poison (3rd level): 5 PPE, one melee action to cast.
*Cure Minor Disorders (4th level): 10 PPE, one melee action to cast.
*Heal Wounds (5th level): 10 PPE, one melee action to cast. 3D6 SDC and 1D6 HP.
*Cure Illness (6th level): 15 PPE, one melee action to cast.

All quick, cheap, and effective. Because it's magic, your healer can probably borrow your PPE, and recharges fairly quickly... they can work themselves down to no PPE, then meditate for an hour and Heal Wounds again.

Psychics?
*Bio-regeneration takes a full minute each time for 6 ISP. It cures more HP, but it doesn't do both HP and SDC in the same use, and will wear you out if you do it too much.
*Healing Touch is TWO minutes for 6 ISP, and heals less.
*Psychic Purification: 8 ISP and 6d6 MINUTES.
*Attack Disease: 12 ISP, 1d4 Minutes of concentration, and the psychic feels the disease for a few hours.
*Bio-Regeneration: Super: 20 ISP, one minute of concentration.

Standard spell magic doesn't have anything to match Psychic Diagnosis or Psychic Surgery without getting high level and really expensive, not gonna claim that they do. And an hour of rest will get you enough for two Bio-R or Healing Touch... but you usually can't draw ISP from other people like a mage can, and most of your healing is a lot slower, and lower in effect, than what a mage can do. AND, because a mage is a mage, learning spells as they wish, instead of a few choices by level, they can be a competent healer on in the morning and blow things up that night (though they're not as good as 1000 guys with laser rifles).

***

That said, tech is unrivaled for damage and communication; while a high-level mage can do some serious damage, so can a first level grunt with a laser rifle and 2d4 grenades. For comms, not much matches radio when you don't have satellites; if you want point to point, you've got lasers (and I've got feelings) of the communication variety, and cryptography can really slow down people interpreting your broadcasts. Tech also scales really well... you need smart people to build your radios and laser rifles, but the guy in the field doesn't really need to know much about them (at the very basic level) aside from "push to talk" and "front towards enemy."

Magic does versatility and concealment really well. A standard Mage is a Jack of All Trades, with a spell in his back pocket for many situations. While spells themselves are limited (you can't as easily turn a wrench into a hammer, as it were), a mage can have a lot of them. Spell magic also has lots of concealment options... Chameleon and Invisibility: Simple are quick, low-level spells that provide great protection against visible light detection. Magic doesn't scale well... pretty much all of it has to be done by particular individuals who undergo years of training.

Psionics? Psionics is absolutely the best at predictions and sensing. Astral Projection, Clairvoyance, Object Read, Remote Viewing... all are fantastic for spying, and Clairvoyance can give you advance warnings of things before they happen. Sixth Sense? It's a 60 second warning, which can be life-saving. Remember Radar in MASH? Who'd announce "Chopper's coming" and everyone would start getting ready to receive patients? Imagine that you have someone who can do that for "We're about to get ambushed" or "Bomb's about to go off."

Like magic, psionics doesn't scale well... BUT you also have 10-25% of the human population who has some sort of psychic ability. And that can be amazing, especially when you have a huge number of people. If a bomb is going off in the motorpool, that might not directly affect me (so Sixth Sense won't work), but my husband works in the motorpool, so I might get a clairvoyant dream the night before, without even trying. And if 1 in every 240 people has Clairvoyance1, then a city of 1000 people has 4 clairvoyants (statistically). With a million people, you have 4000 clairvoyants, and that's an incredible network of Radars.

1 Assuming 25% of the population and a relatively even distribution of psychic powers; the number will actually be better, because major psychics skew the count from what I have.

[Mack]

So... pointless math excursion.

On Rifts Earth, about 1 in 66 people have Clairvoyance.

Spoiler:

There's a 15% chance of having Minor Psionics. Of those, one-third will have Sensitive ones, so 5%. If you randomly pick 2 Sensitive powers, there's an 8.5% chance one of them will be Clairvoyance.
-- 5% * 8.5% = 0.425%

There's a 10% chance of having Major Psionics. Half will have 8 powers from one category, and half will have 6 powers from up to three categories.
For the first 5% group, one in three will have Sensitive powers, and then has 8 chances (39%) of having Clairvoyance.
-- (5% / 3) * 39% = 0.658%
And for the other 5% group (multiple categories) we'll assume they get 2 Sensitive powers (8.5% chance of Clairvoyance).
-- 5% * 8.5% = 0.425%

Add up our three groups: 0.425% + 0.658% + 0.425% = 1.508%
And 1 / 1.508% = 66.3. So on average, 1 in 66.3 people have Clairvoyance in Rifts. That's 15 people out of every 1,000.

This result is the same for any given Sensitive power. It's a bit different for Healing & Physical because there's a different number of powers available.

[darthauthor]

Love the Math!

I see some assumptions. Specifically that all psionic powers have an equal chance of occuring in an individual. I'm okay with that assumption.

Other assumptions are that the kids with such powers survive into adulthood.
Likewise, that they are not enslaved or such.
That their parent or guardian or such or they themselves don't get bionics/cybernetics which would impede a psychics ability.

I forgot the statistic percentages on people with bionic/cybernetics. The groups are diverse with city folk having the bulk of tech implants. The bigger and more advanced the city the greater the percents (with exceptions Federation of Magic, etc.).

The groups in the wilderness may or may not demonize those with psychic ability which might mean that they are exiled, killed, weaponized and put on the front lines.

It would seem it is NOT always the weak who are killed and the strong who survive. Sometimes it is safer to be weaker. Kept as the protected of stronger beings. And if their protector is defeated they seek another.
Being strong can sometimes mean others will seek you out and burden you with their need. While those who feel threatened by you want to destroy or enslave you for your strength.

Also, heroes get themselves killed fighting or sacrificing themselves for others.

Still I agree with a 50 / 50 distribution knowing no other better alternative.
So:
1 in 66.3 becomes 1 in 256.2 or an "average" of 15 in 4,000 people.

These people will have the psionic power of clairvoyance but not necessarily the skill at using it. Even after training by a master or have been self taught their base percentage (%) is still only 58 percent. They aren't right or even see anything (at least useful) almost 40% of the time.