Detachable SAMAS Flight System

[Grazzik]

WB11 pg 118 - the Super SAMAS specifically details how the flight system can be detached to reduce weight by 50%. As far as I can tell, it is the only SAMAS design with a detachable flight system. As such, I've always assumed the flight system is an integral component of the original SAMAS suit and cannot be detached.

However, assuming the flight system for the original SAMAS is also 50% of the suit's weight (~170lbs), does it make design sense for the flight system to also be detachable? As the system overheats after 10 hours of above cruising speed flight, it would be advantageous to be able to swap out hot jets every couple thousand miles, whether for the same pilot or when swapping out pilots during extended engagements. Also, if required to engage indoors or on the ground in tight spaces, it would be a big plus for the SAMAS to drop the flight system to shrink the suit's profile and move more quietly. Not mention the impact such a heavy load would have on the suit's center of gravity when not in flight.

Has anyone else ever played the SAMAS as being able to detach their flight system?

[Aermas]

Most SAMASare non detachable. The Super SAMAS is a special case. If you want though, you can stick a Condor or Icarius Flight System onto the back of your chosen power armor

[Dustin Fireblade]

Has anyone else ever played the SAMAS as being able to detach their flight system?

Yes, been doing that since 1990/91 when we started playing Rifts. It didn't move faster and certainly not quieter (well minus the jet engine roar I guess), but yeah it'd be easier to get into tight spaces.

[Warshield73]

Has anyone else ever played the SAMAS as being able to detach their flight system?

Yes, been doing that since 1990/91 when we started playing Rifts. It didn't move faster and certainly not quieter (well minus the jet engine roar I guess), but yeah it'd be easier to get into tight spaces.

I think the biggest problem with this is where is the nuclear power plant and the ammo for the rail-gun. Also looking at the artwork, especially the full color work on pages 241-242 or RUE it just doesn't look like the original SAMAS can detach it. It appears to be that the Super SAMAS has the detachable thruster pack just to reduce size and weight.

Just my opinion

[Grazzik]

Most SAMASare non detachable. The Super SAMAS is a special case. If you want though, you can stick a Condor or Icarius Flight System onto the back of your chosen power armor

No doubt, such flight systems are good if picking any man-sized PA suit. However, the question is specifically looking at SAMAS and whether folks have played it as detachable.

Yes, been doing that since 1990/91 when we started playing Rifts. It didn't move faster and certainly not quieter (well minus the jet engine roar I guess), but yeah it'd be easier to get into tight spaces.

Thanks. Yeah, I meant that moving on foot would likely be quieter than the noise from the large jets or even the hovering system.

I think the biggest problem with this is where is the nuclear power plant and the ammo for the rail-gun. Also looking at the artwork, especially the full color work on pages 241-242 or RUE it just doesn't look like the original SAMAS can detach it. It appears to be that the Super SAMAS has the detachable thruster pack just to reduce size and weight.

Just my opinion

Good questions.
- I think of PA suits like FT-005 (RUE pg 272), T21 (SB1r pg 41), NG-UELX45 (WB34 pg 126) and UELX42 (pg 139). They are nuclear powered and weigh 160lbs, 100lbs, 124lbs and 215lbs, respectively. So, this in line with a small form factor of fictional power plants in my games - like a micro fusion plant. That said, there are diverse player/GM views on Rifts tech and everyone is entitled to their own views. Also, the T21's jet pack is removeable, so the nuclear plant is not in the flight system, it's in the suit itself and the art shows the suit as pretty tight fitting.
- Presumably, the ammo drum attaches to the SAMAS suit under the jets, as RUE pg 240 says a second drum attaches to the jets' undercarriage - my guess is because there's no more space to attach directly to the suit. If the flight system can be removed, the first drum would probably still attach, but perhaps a second drum may not be feasible.
- The art is what gave the first impression that the system is not removeable. However, art is neither considered canon nor particularly detailed, and the text said nothing about the flight system. I know it is specifically called out in the SuperSam write-up, that's a given, but it reads as a needed clarification since the suit is over a ton even without the flight system. That's why I was wondering how others have interpreted the stat blocks wrt whether the flight system is detachable for other SAMAS which are significantly lighter.

[Jefffar]

The Rifts novels has it detach as well IIRC.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Has anyone else ever played the SAMAS as being able to detach their flight system?

Yes, been doing that since 1990/91 when we started playing Rifts. It didn't move faster and certainly not quieter (well minus the jet engine roar I guess), but yeah it'd be easier to get into tight spaces.

I think the biggest problem with this is where is the nuclear power plant and the ammo for the rail-gun. Also looking at the artwork, especially the full color work on pages 241-242 or RUE it just doesn't look like the original SAMAS can detach it. It appears to be that the Super SAMAS has the detachable thruster pack just to reduce size and weight.

Just my opinion

I don't disagree to much with that. Way back then, we just didn't really care much with the how to be honest. Later we started working things out though. For example, the artwork shows that ammo you mentioned just behind the left shoulder air intake and mounted over/on the left side thruster. So at first this would pop off separately, then could be re-attached to the back of the armor. This problem went away completely though when we decided to make our rail guns single shot only, so the C-40 became a magazine fed model (all other stats the same). After that, we hand waved that the thruster pack was more or less a backpack that had various connection ports to the armor itself.

The reactor was also decided to be on the backside, but inside the armor itself. I don't recall any canon mention of how big these things are (hmm maybe in the Japan WB?), but we figured it's really small. Then a lot of that went away after a rather popular movie came out 15 years ago (!) that I think gave many gamers a visual of what power armor could look like.

[Library Ogre]

I would also be inclined to go with something like the Robotech's Silverback... you might have SAMAS-like suits made out of parts from a proper SAMAS. A flight system and the associated hardware and software are expensive. A ground-based SAMAS, perhaps with jet-pack mounts, would be cheaper, but still give you power-armor troopers.

[Grazzik]

I would also be inclined to go with something like the Robotech's Silverback... you might have SAMAS-like suits made out of parts from a proper SAMAS. A flight system and the associated hardware and software are expensive. A ground-based SAMAS, perhaps with jet-pack mounts, would be cheaper, but still give you power-armor troopers.

This makes a lot of sense, particularly post-Tolkeen with salvaged or mothballed suits and as the armor transitions to ISS and state militias that may not have access to regular army resources. Great suggestion! Also, this could allow for custom loadout to meet the needs of ISS/militia missions, while also considered an incremental step up from the CA-6EX exoskeleton.

[Curbludgeon]

I'd be cool with more modular SAMAS. They could take a page from the NGR's Jaegers, with possibility of limited missile use, communication/sensor suites, and flight modules, making the SAMAS a more default medium infantry than suits like Death Knights.

[Aermas]

I'd be cool with more modular SAMAS. They could take a page from the NGR's Jaegers, with possibility of limited missile use, communication/sensor suites, and flight modules, making the SAMAS a more default medium infantry than suits like Death Knights.

A "universal" suit of medium range armor which could have weapon systems added or modified, different levels of armor with different modular capabilities, SAMAS systems with different speeds & capabilities, etc. Would be fun. I know most RIFTS writers & players are more military minded & that's why the books reflect that, but getting some mechanics to write up a Robot, Power Armor & Vehicle book would be fun. Imagine taking the Power Armor equivalent to a K-Car & modding it, or the equivalent to a stock car, with different mod kits prepackaged by the manufacturer, "Turn your SAMson, into a SAMAS!" Young kids in Northern Gun tricking out their suit with dreams of being in the robot gladiator arena.

[Grazzik]

I'd be cool with more modular SAMAS. They could take a page from the NGR's Jaegers, with possibility of limited missile use, communication/sensor suites, and flight modules, making the SAMAS a more default medium infantry than suits like Death Knights.

A "universal" suit of medium range armor which could have weapon systems added or modified, different levels of armor with different modular capabilities, SAMAS systems with different speeds & capabilities, etc. Would be fun. I know most RIFTS writers & players are more military minded & that's why the books reflect that, but getting some mechanics to write up a Robot, Power Armor & Vehicle book would be fun. Imagine taking the Power Armor equivalent to a K-Car & modding it, or the equivalent to a stock car, with different mod kits prepackaged by the manufacturer, "Turn your SAMson, into a SAMAS!" Young kids in Northern Gun tricking out their suit with dreams of being in the robot gladiator arena.

Agreed, though I'm sure there might be restrictions in CS-allied kingdoms like NG and MI on mod kits that emulate/simulate CS hardware, even if only made from SDC materials. That said, it might be something of interest to the Black Market, particularly in places where, despite a low CS presence, there might be cachet with some groups. The CS themselves might promote such kits in areas where they want to grow influence, recruit potential talent, or cause some instability like Whykin, FQ, GAW or El Paso. Why say no to the kindly CS who has donated SDC SAMAS mod kits to upgrade your crappy Chipwell suits in exchange for some mineral concessions?... Not everyone prizes the actual performance of a new suit of armor - some just want to look cool or dangerous.

[ShadowLogan]

WB11 pg 118 - the Super SAMAS specifically details how the flight system can be detached to reduce weight by 50%. As far as I can tell, it is the only SAMAS design with a detachable flight system. As such, I've always assumed the flight system is an integral component of the original SAMAS suit and cannot be detached.

However, assuming the flight system for the original SAMAS is also 50% of the suit's weight (~170lbs), does it make design sense for the flight system to also be detachable? As the system overheats after 10 hours of above cruising speed flight, it would be advantageous to be able to swap out hot jets every couple thousand miles, whether for the same pilot or when swapping out pilots during extended engagements. Also, if required to engage indoors or on the ground in tight spaces, it would be a big plus for the SAMAS to drop the flight system to shrink the suit's profile and move more quietly. Not mention the impact such a heavy load would have on the suit's center of gravity when not in flight.

Has anyone else ever played the SAMAS as being able to detach their flight system?

No we don't play the SAMAS as having a detachable flight pack unless specifically stated.

I'm not sure it makes sense to make the flight pack of the other SAMAS units modular like it is on the Super-SAM. A 10-hour flight above cruise speed is likely not something that is done regularly.

As for CQ profile, IINM most (if not all) won't see an alteration in height and the change in width will be minimal since the wings can collapse to just beyond shoulder width. The biggest change to a CQ profile would be in terms of length of the unit. There would be at least two drawbacks to the loss of the flight pack system, 1. you won't have "on-demand" flight capabilities for several minutes if you need to withdraw or give pursuit to a fleeing enemy, and 2. (which might be controversial) you could in theory use the wings as "shields" to protect from attacks coming from the side (though the wings are not designed for this). There is also the issue of the C-40R Rail Gun and its ammo and power supply, though if the Super-SAM is any indication the gun might have its own power source and the ammo bin could be moved.

[Grazzik]

No we don't play the SAMAS as having a detachable flight pack unless specifically stated.

I'm not sure it makes sense to make the flight pack of the other SAMAS units modular like it is on the Super-SAM. A 10-hour flight above cruise speed is likely not something that is done regularly.

As for CQ profile, IINM most (if not all) won't see an alteration in height and the change in width will be minimal since the wings can collapse to just beyond shoulder width. The biggest change to a CQ profile would be in terms of length of the unit. There would be at least two drawbacks to the loss of the flight pack system, 1. you won't have "on-demand" flight capabilities for several minutes if you need to withdraw or give pursuit to a fleeing enemy, and 2. (which might be controversial) you could in theory use the wings as "shields" to protect from attacks coming from the side (though the wings are not designed for this). There is also the issue of the C-40R Rail Gun and its ammo and power supply, though if the Super-SAM is any indication the gun might have its own power source and the ammo bin could be moved.

Those are some good points to consider and I'll keep them in mind. Losing "on-demand" flight is definitely a drawback, no argument. Yeah, I've used the wings as shields before and in a pinch it's handy.

RUE specifically says the railgun is powered by the suit, so if it is determined the power plant is in the body of the suit and not the jet pack, then the railgun is a non-issue. Same with ammo, it is unclear where/how the ammo drum is actually fastened. As suggested by Aermas, a sourcebook specific to R&PA might be helpful... particularly if schematics for the more popular model templates (SAMAS, Samson, etc.) were included similar in detail as to what was provided for the Glitterboy suit.

Depending on the campaign, 2000+ miles in 10 hours is very possible when running time-sensitive courier or chase/bounty missions. ChiTown to FQ City is ~2000 miles return trip as the crow flies and speeds at cruising over a notable expanse of enemy territory (Lazlo, FoM, whatever is in Lower Michigan's cluster of Nexuses) might put the courier at greater risk of interception. Similarly, a return trip skirting the northern border of Xiticix claimed territory from east to west and back clocks in around ~2000 miles, while a direct return trip would be only ~1200 miles. So, to avoid the Xiticix but still make it to the other side and back in time, travelling at higher than cruise may be the only option. Madhaven to Splynn is a smidge over ~2000 miles. If a buyer in Splynn of a lost relic dug up in the Madhaven ruins is impatient and won't stick around, the team better boot it across dangerous waters and treacherous Atlantean terrain. Now extend the adventure to track to other locales or give the team the ability to cache their flight systems to cool down while they play out a scenario or undertake a side mission on foot, and the ability to detach the flight system is a plus. Sure, in all these cases, magic would definitely be a better option to travel large distances. However, not everyone wants, trusts, can find, or can afford magic services.

(NB: all these distances are based on mapping to Google Earth and measuring their distance. Errors could be due to estimation of locations, tectonic shifts as a result of the Cataclysm, stretching/shrinking of reality due to d-shifting, or bad source data from the books.)

Re the CQ profile, I've always wondered about the reference to going down corridors... it reads as if the suit is flying or hovering down the corridor rather than walking/running. Either way, I see a sizing problem. Now, I'm no architect, but Google says the IRL minimum standards for hallways range from 2' 10" to 3'. Standard doors are similar widths. These sizes have developed over a long time based on cost, need, and aesthetics. The width of a SAMAS wings down is 3' 6". So, does this mean that building standards on Rifts Earth have changed to increase door/hallway widths by 6"? This would be a notable increase for no discernable reason, other than to accommodate power armor (which shouldn't normally be worn indoors) or larger DBees.

[ShadowLogan]

As suggested by Aermas, a sourcebook specific to R&PA might be helpful... particularly if schematics for the more popular model templates (SAMAS, Samson, etc.) were included similar in detail as to what was provided for the Glitterboy suit.

Which is not a bad idea per say, but one I don't think we'll ever see in terms of technical readouts that get to this level of detail.

Depending on the campaign, 2000+ miles in 10 hours is very possible when running time-sensitive courier or chase/bounty missions.

I do not dispute this; however, it is questionable if the SAMAS is the best unit to employ in these situations. A SkyCycle can fly faster AND can fly longer (WB11's units post 24hrs constant use) making it a better choice for courier duty. Chase missions, it's going to also come down to what the target(s) is using since they could run into the same constraints as the SAMAS or have superior ones like the Skycycle (in which case the SAMAS could get left in the dust).

Re the CQ profile, I've always wondered about the reference to going down corridors... it reads as if the suit is flying or hovering down the corridor rather than walking/running. Either way, I see a sizing problem. Now, I'm no architect, but Google says the IRL minimum standards for hallways range from 2' 10" to 3'. Standard doors are similar widths. These sizes have developed over a long time based on cost, need, and aesthetics. The width of a SAMAS wings down is 3' 6". So, does this mean that building standards on Rifts Earth have changed to increase door/hallway widths by 6"? This would be a notable increase for no discernable reason, other than to accommodate power armor (which shouldn't normally be worn indoors) or larger DBees.

Interior building sizes will vary for a variety of reasons on Rifts Earth:
-who built the structures you are going into will have an impact (example, Farie 'Bot vs human vs Wolfen vs Cyberoids)
-the purpose of the structure is also going to be a factor (a factory vs warehouse vs residential vs office vs medical vs etc)
-you could also have structures with multiple zones with differing requirements (example a repair garage is going to have areas built for cars, but also an "office" section that is not necessarily ideal for cars)

Even if you assume the OG SAMAS could shed its wings, it might not gain that much in terms of width reduction. Each wing appears to be ~0.077m thick (pg113 WB11) or ~3", so at best you might drop it down to 3ft and that assumes the wings can fold down perfectly and are mounted on the outer edge of the shoulder (the reused image pg113 has the wings at an angle which would actually give it a span of nearly its height and starting slightly within said demarcation). So, you'd still have potential issues with it being a tight fit.

[Grazzik]

Which is not a bad idea per say, but one I don't think we'll ever see in terms of technical readouts that get to this level of detail.

Ha! So true!

I do not dispute this; however, it is questionable if the SAMAS is the best unit to employ in these situations. A SkyCycle can fly faster AND can fly longer (WB11's units post 24hrs constant use) making it a better choice for courier duty. Chase missions, it's going to also come down to what the target(s) is using since they could run into the same constraints as the SAMAS or have superior ones like the Skycycle (in which case the SAMAS could get left in the dust).

Also true. Sometimes you just have to use what you have.

Interior building sizes will vary for a variety of reasons on Rifts Earth:
-who built the structures you are going into will have an impact (example, Farie 'Bot vs human vs Wolfen vs Cyberoids)
-the purpose of the structure is also going to be a factor (a factory vs warehouse vs residential vs office vs medical vs etc)
-you could also have structures with multiple zones with differing requirements (example a repair garage is going to have areas built for cars, but also an "office" section that is not necessarily ideal for cars)

Even if you assume the OG SAMAS could shed its wings, it might not gain that much in terms of width reduction. Each wing appears to be ~0.077m thick (pg113 WB11) or ~3", so at best you might drop it down to 3ft and that assumes the wings can fold down perfectly and are mounted on the outer edge of the shoulder (the reused image pg113 has the wings at an angle which would actually give it a span of nearly its height and starting slightly within said demarcation). So, you'd still have potential issues with it being a tight fit.

Again, all true. However, a corridor or hallway must be 4' 6" wide for the SAMAS (with jet pack) to turn around, otherwise it would be seriously exposed to attack from behind... unless a second SAMAS covered the rear by hovering backwards. Dropping the jets would allow the SAMAS to move inside and turn to cover their own backside.

Anyway, maybe it's better if the SAMAS have such limitations as stated, as it lends more importance to having effective infantry support that can go where the SAMAS can't. Otherwise, every grunt would want a flightless SAMAS suit...

[Aermas]

Given the one iconic artwork of a SAMAS with folded wings walking with his gun in hand & his wings folded & angled in front of him I don't see why using the folded wings as shields is out of the question, it's reminiscent of riot units slowly advancing with a gun & shield.

I'm surprised they haven't made a Dragoon themed SAMAS, who flies fast to the fight but fights as a ground unit with big defensive shield wings made to parry attacks

[Grazzik]

I'm surprised they haven't made a Dragoon themed SAMAS, who flies fast to the fight but fights as a ground unit with big defensive shield wings made to parry attacks

Since most manufacturers of SAMAS class power armor seem to make only a couple variants, you'd need a manufacturer that a) has a backstory where they gain access to the SAMAS blueprint, b) has adequate research facilities and resources to produce a dragon variant SAMAS, and c) has something about them where dragons (or some other winged creature) is a notable theme.

Dragons would not be in keeping with the CS human-centric motif. Even Hellion and Centaur Skelebots are considered by many as beyond the pale. However, Japan and the Geofront in China would be likely candidates.

[Aermas]

I'm surprised they haven't made a Dragoon themed SAMAS, who flies fast to the fight but fights as a ground unit with big defensive shield wings made to parry attacks

Since most manufacturers of SAMAS class power armor seem to make only a couple variants, you'd need a manufacturer that a) has a backstory where they gain access to the SAMAS blueprint, b) has adequate research facilities and resources to produce a dragon variant SAMAS, and c) has something about them where dragons (or some other winged creature) is a notable theme.

Dragons would not be in keeping with the CS human-centric motif. Even Hellion and Centaur Skelebots are considered by many as beyond the pale. However, Japan and the Geofront in China would be likely candidates.

DragOOn not dragon. As in based on the old mobile infantry dragoon who rode to war, but fought on foot

[Grazzik]

I'm surprised they haven't made a Dragoon themed SAMAS, who flies fast to the fight but fights as a ground unit with big defensive shield wings made to parry attacks

Since most manufacturers of SAMAS class power armor seem to make only a couple variants, you'd need a manufacturer that a) has a backstory where they gain access to the SAMAS blueprint, b) has adequate research facilities and resources to produce a dragon variant SAMAS, and c) has something about them where dragons (or some other winged creature) is a notable theme.

Dragons would not be in keeping with the CS human-centric motif. Even Hellion and Centaur Skelebots are considered by many as beyond the pale. However, Japan and the Geofront in China would be likely candidates.

DragOOn not dragon. As in based on the old mobile infantry dragoon who rode to war, but fought on foot

I honestly read it as "dragon"
Wouldn't that role already apply to the Super SAMAS and other heavy PA?

[Aermas]

The Super SAMAS is an air superiority fighter, it has a higher ceiling & faster speed than most any other SAMAS not from South America. It is very tanky for a SAMAS & a variant of it with a bunch of missles would be nice.

My idea for the dragoon would be more like a heavy version of the old SAMAS

[ShadowLogan]

Also true. Sometimes you just have to use what you have.

True, but sometimes what you have can't or won't be able to do the job. That is the problem with vague open ended scenarios like a Chase/Bounty there are just to many combinations available to evaluate.

Anyway, maybe it's better if the SAMAS have such limitations as stated, as it lends more importance to having effective infantry support that can go where the SAMAS can't. Otherwise, every grunt would want a flightless SAMAS suit.

Well technically the CS in WB11 had something like 1million of the suits in storage so in theory they could have equipped every infantry man with one. However, I do agree the limitations make sense and would push for better coordination.

I'm surprised they haven't made a Dragoon themed SAMAS, who flies fast to the fight but fights as a ground unit with big defensive shield wings made to parry attacks

While I would agree the wings can function as shields it should be considered a "desperation" move as the shields are the unit's actual wings which are needed for flight. Given a situation could go south you could end up crippling the SAMAS in terms of its ability to retreat.

The basic concept of what you describe could be considered a potential evolutionary development of the CS Deathwing (or whatever it was called in WB13, the CS version of WB10's Icarus unit) that was a flight unit that could detach from a suit of CS Power Armor. I would think giving it a hand-held shield should be possible to augment the PA sub-unit's armor (and be cheaper to replace), and while the CS isn't known to use physical shields it is something that exists in the setting (Kittani, Triax, and the Russians all have non-magical shields in their inventory)

[Aermas]

I'm thinking of the shield Wing as an ablative measure, & yeah it could be for a Flight System as much as a SAMAS as long as the wings fold.

You can have a light(ish) flying wing, with an ablative armored panel affixed to it, that's designed to better reduce directed damage (half damage when used to parry?) So you can get into a fight, block with the reinforced wing shield, & once the panel is compromised you can pop it off & replace it, or even still fly since the lighter armored understructure which actual holds the suit up is still perfectly fine.

[Curbludgeon]

I could see an Ironwing variant which drops the shoulder launchers in exchange for the wings wrapping forward a bit more and upping the MDC with ablative plating. At least some of the plating shouldn't add to the armor's ungainliness on the ground, by folding in. It shouldn't get the Death Knight's auto block, but maybe +2 to parry or the like. The four launchers have 25 MDC each, and the wings 100 each, so maybe the plating adds 80-100?

If Juicers can with one action magnetically lock into a moving flight system I figure a Smiling Jack could maybe do the same to a hovering one. Admittedly the juicer/Borg wings are three times the weight. The SAMAS drone/pack would have a separate power supple, so maybe offset the change by switching to UEL-fed weapons.

Changing out head designs is easy enough. It's mentioned somewhere NG does it. I kind of figure some of the ones like the Blue and Red Hawks had that in mind.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I'm surprised they haven't made a Dragoon themed SAMAS, who flies fast to the fight but fights as a ground unit with big defensive shield wings made to parry attacks

Doesn't the NGR have something like that now?

[Aermas]

I'm surprised they haven't made a Dragoon themed SAMAS, who flies fast to the fight but fights as a ground unit with big defensive shield wings made to parry attacks

Doesn't the NGR have something like that now?

We're could I find it? I'll be honest I don't always thoroughly read everything in a book

[Dustin Fireblade]

I'm surprised they haven't made a Dragoon themed SAMAS, who flies fast to the fight but fights as a ground unit with big defensive shield wings made to parry attacks

Doesn't the NGR have something like that now?

We're could I find it? I'll be honest I don't always thoroughly read everything in a book

Want to say it was in the Triax 2 book. There's a lot in that one.