Use of Magic to Eat or Feed People

[darthauthor]

Have been studying ways in which magic could be used to feed starving refugees and the adventurers.

One player has an idea. The spell "Stone to Flesh"

The caster can change 50 pounds of stone to "flesh" per level.
So, is that meat?

What I really want to know is, since the spell is permanent, costs 30(?) PPE, can the adventurers find some rocks, then cast the spell and start BBQ to eat and serve up to the starving refugees?

[Library Ogre]

Have been studying ways in which magic could be used to feed starving refugees and the adventurers.

One player has an idea. The spell "Stone to Flesh"

The caster can change 50 pounds of stone to "flesh" per level.
So, is that meat?

What I really want to know is, since the spell is permanent, costs 30(?) PPE, can the adventurers find some rocks, then cast the spell and start BBQ to eat and serve up to the starving refugees?

I have always held that, yes, you can do this. It is not "de-petrify", but "turn stone into flesh", which means you can turn a rock into meat.

What kind of meat? I lean towards a pork or chicken analogue, but I would, for example, let someone use a combination of spells to make what they want... make a cow out of clay (with or without the spell), turn it into stone, then turn the stone into meat? You have beef. Was that clay, then stone, ever cow? No. But you turned a non-living stone cow into a non-living flesh cow, so you have beef, and tripe, and hooves, because magic. I think there's precedent for this, from the spell combinations suggested by "Sculpt and Animate Clay Animals" (7th level Earth Warlock); leave off "Breath of Life" and you've got a corpse.

However, if you've got Create Bread and Milk, and "Stone to Potato", you've got a pretty good meal going.

[Grazzik]

Create Bread and Milk is the typical go-to spell.

However, if you want to get fancy, you could use the rules in Nightbane WB 3 to formulate your own spells...
Create Soup and Salad for starters
Create Steak and Lobster Tails for entrée
Create Apple Pie and Ice Cream for dessert

Basically, you should always have a culinary wizard on your team...

As an idea for GMs re Stone to Flesh, don't make it too easy for the players. It says "flesh", but what kind? Make up a random roll table and if the option rolled was human flesh... maybe with a partially formed ear or nose just to make a point of it... Perhaps in desperate circumstances, where it is the only option for sustenance, PCs would need an attribute check for ME. Keep it interesting...

[darthauthor]

Question:
Are Rifts Ley Line Walkers and such permitted to select the "Create Bread and Milk" as an invocation spell?

Do animals, like dogs and such, eat bread and milk?

I would think of it as a go to spell but imagine going for weeks eating nothing but bread and milk for breakfast lunch and dinner.

If a necromancer we came across with a chicken bone brewed some chicken soup I'd be singing their praises and offer them the bones of my enemies.

Tastes better than dirt.

Fusionist and russian Nature guy gets it.


BTW. Just thought of something.

Can stone to flesh spell be used to create skin grafts for paramedics and medical doctors to quick patch injured patients?

[Library Ogre]

Can stone to flesh spell be used to create skin grafts for paramedics and medical doctors to quick patch injured patients?

Now that is an interesting question. I don't have an answer, but I'd be more inclined to allow it if

1) You made a patient-like sculpture
2) You were using magical or psionic healing.

The patient-like shape would be sympathetic magic to make sure the flesh was more likely to be compatible, the magic or psychic healing would help integrate it into the body more seamlessly.

[darthauthor]

I love coming up with creative ways to use magic and psionics

[Mack]

For Stone to Flesh used on a rock, I'd make it come out like tofu. Edible and filling, but not satisfying like a steak.

The other option for starving refugees is the good old Sustain spell. It affects two others by touch, is only 5th level, lasts for a day per caster level, and only costs 12 PPE.

I think somewhere I created a Techno-Wizard food dehydrator that made Sustain-infused beef jerky. One ounce of jerky was as filling as a normal meal.

[Grazzik]

Are Rifts Ley Line Walkers and such permitted to select the "Create Bread and Milk" as an invocation spell?

Do animals, like dogs and such, eat bread and milk?

Yes, LLW could learn it through level advancement or purchase.

Dogs are able to eat bread like humans in moderation as they are omnivores. Bread-only diets are not particularly nutritious long term for either humans or dogs. Milk causes nastiness. Other animals depend on the species. For example, cats are carnivores and should not be fed bread.

Can stone to flesh spell be used to create skin grafts for paramedics and medical doctors to quick patch injured patients?

Now that is an interesting question. I don't have an answer, but I'd be more inclined to allow it if

1) You made a patient-like sculpture
2) You were using magical or psionic healing.

The patient-like shape would be sympathetic magic to make sure the flesh was more likely to be compatible, the magic or psychic healing would help integrate it into the body more seamlessly.

Here, I might suggest packing the wound with pebbles rather than sculpting. However, I agree that a second spell of healing would be needed for a basic graft. Especially if the pebbles are dirty and could contaminate the wound. With psionics, I'd say psychic surgery would be required if nerves and such needed connecting.

[Library Ogre]

Here, I might suggest packing the wound with pebbles rather than sculpting.

Oh, that's brilliant.

[quote]However, I agree that a second spell of healing would be needed for a basic graft. Especially if the pebbles are dirty and could contaminate the wound. With psionics, I'd say psychic surgery would be required if nerves and such needed connecting.

I'd let you get away with a psychic healing touch, but I think psychic surgery or, if the psychic themselves were injured, bio-regeneration. Psychic surgery would be better, but some sort of magical healing to make sure the graft took immediately would help.

[Grazzik]

For Stone to Flesh used on a rock, I'd make it come out like tofu. Edible and filling, but not satisfying like a steak

Like boiled chicken, eww.

I know it is unique to Wormwood as a spell of communion, but perhaps some variant of the Summon Edible Grubs (DB 01 pg 89) could be used by Summoners. Perhaps summons something like witchetty grubs that tastes like almonds.

[darthauthor]

The question was brought up to challenge the adventurers to a non-combat problem. I know they all have wilderness survival but that won't be enough to feed everyone and is unsustainable in a given area.

Sustain is an awesome spell that replaces eating food. The only disadvantage is non-mechanical in that characters act like robots. Also, miss out on experience points from skill uses. I also want to reward players with morale or at least npc's when they do human living things like relaxing with a good meal, bathing, enjoying music. The buff I reward with is a saving through bonus or skill bonus.

The refugees sing the heroes praises as they save them from famine, lift their spirits with domestic and performance skills, shepard them to the closest town while fending off predators, slavers, and such. They can't take off or the people will be picked off. The people are vulnerable not the players.

[Grazzik]

Casting a spell is problematic if you are looking for players to work for their XP. It's just too easy. However, perhaps have them run down their PPE to absolute minimum levels so they have no reserves in case they need to cast in defense.

Or have them struggle to cast... perhaps they enter a strange d-shifting zone where there are phenomena that act as wafting Anti Magic Clouds or a magical dampening field. These could disrupt the ability of spells and force the party to rely on ritualistic casting for the stronger spell strength. However, raiders might strike during the rituals disrupting the magic. Maybe they have to invent the ritual based on what little they know of the spells they know... could lead to some surprising outcomes.

Or have hordes of alien ants eat all the food as fast as they are able to squirrel it away for the journey. Follow the ants to their ant hill to recover the food. Tracking and xenobiology XP!

Or have one of the refugees steal the food. And have them sprinkle crumbs on someone else. Who's telling the truth? Investigation skills XP!

Have them pass by an indefensible farm or village where some refugees may choose to settle down, with or without the permission of the current farmer/villagers. Or have someone steal crops. Fight off angry farmers or make amends despite limited resources? Alignment check XP!

[Prince Artemis]

Stone to flesh flesh would not be fulfilling in the slightest. It would create the tissue, but you're talking flesh with no developed muscle, no nutrients, other than the nutrients from that particular rock itself. Since by the logic that it can convert any rock to flesh, it doesn't say that it creates any particular nutrients or anything like that. So you'd still be eating rock, just soft gooey rock.

[Library Ogre]

Stone to flesh flesh would not be fulfilling in the slightest. It would create the tissue, but you're talking flesh with no developed muscle, no nutrients, other than the nutrients from that particular rock itself. Since by the logic that it can convert any rock to flesh, it doesn't say that it creates any particular nutrients or anything like that. So you'd still be eating rock, just soft gooey rock.

I find this to be a specious conclusion; after all, if you cast Stone to Flesh on a transformed person, they become that person again. If you cast Stone to Flesh on the subject of a "Sculpt and Animate Clay Animals" creature (having first turned the clay to stone), you create a corpse, not an undifferentiated slab of meat.

Especially if the stone were shaped into an animal shape, I see no reason it wouldn't make actual meat. Make stone turkey legs, and you get turkey legs when you turn them into flesh.

[Killer Cyborg]

I guess the metaphorphosis spells would be the best way to use magic eat people.
Like turn into a dragon or some.

[taalismn]

Stone to flesh flesh would not be fulfilling in the slightest. It would create the tissue, but you're talking flesh with no developed muscle, no nutrients, other than the nutrients from that particular rock itself. Since by the logic that it can convert any rock to flesh, it doesn't say that it creates any particular nutrients or anything like that. So you'd still be eating rock, just soft gooey rock.

I find this to be a specious conclusion; after all, if you cast Stone to Flesh on a transformed person, they become that person again. If you cast Stone to Flesh on the subject of a "Sculpt and Animate Clay Animals" creature (having first turned the clay to stone), you create a corpse, not an undifferentiated slab of meat.

Especially if the stone were shaped into an animal shape, I see no reason it wouldn't make actual meat. Make stone turkey legs, and you get turkey legs when you turn them into flesh.

Sprinkle the rocks with extra minerals and vitamins just to make sure. 'Mystery meat' might fill your belly, but long-term, a regular diet is recommended for health purposes.

[Killer Cyborg]

Stone to flesh flesh would not be fulfilling in the slightest. It would create the tissue, but you're talking flesh with no developed muscle, no nutrients, other than the nutrients from that particular rock itself. Since by the logic that it can convert any rock to flesh, it doesn't say that it creates any particular nutrients or anything like that. So you'd still be eating rock, just soft gooey rock.

If the spell couldn't create nutrients, petrified people wouldn't return to normal when the spell was cast on them; they'd turn to dead.

The spell effect is: "transforms stone to flesh."

Transform- to change in composition or structure
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter of which rock is made.
Flesh- the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human.

There's nothing in the spell saying the flesh is created is special in any way, not that it's especially tasty and healthy to eat, nor that it's untasty and/or unhealthy.
It's just average flesh.
Just like the Basilisk's petrification ability doesn't say the stone created is soft and/or fleshlike in any way, so it's not.
Just like "Create Bread & Milk" doesn't say that it's only skim milk and Keto bread, so it's not.
Just like Fireball doesn't say it creates luke-warm fire that splashes around like water, or flows like air.

If the spells don't specify or describe an effect, it isn't there.
If we didn't know, for example, that the spell could be used to de-petrify people turned to stone, the description would only affect their actual flesh, leaving bone and skin still stoned.
But it does say that, so we do know it, or at the least can safely assume it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Have been studying ways in which magic could be used to feed starving refugees and the adventurers.

One player has an idea. The spell "Stone to Flesh"

The caster can change 50 pounds of stone to "flesh" per level.
So, is that meat?

Meat, fat, sinew, etc.
Everything but bone, skin, and I think the organs.

What I really want to know is, since the spell is permanent, costs 30(?) PPE, can the adventurers find some rocks, then cast the spell and start BBQ to eat and serve up to the starving refugees?

I don't see any reason why not.
I could make up some reasons if you like, but I don't see any reasons that necessarily exist.

[darthauthor]

Thanks Killer Cyborg,

I want player to be able to use magic and psionics creatively as long as it is NOT a direct attack that instantly kills who ever is opposing them without a chance.

If you have any ideas on creative uses of spells for flavor and to solve problems (not fighting) please share.

Very Respectfully,

[Prince Artemis]

Stone to flesh flesh would not be fulfilling in the slightest. It would create the tissue, but you're talking flesh with no developed muscle, no nutrients, other than the nutrients from that particular rock itself. Since by the logic that it can convert any rock to flesh, it doesn't say that it creates any particular nutrients or anything like that. So you'd still be eating rock, just soft gooey rock.

If the spell couldn't create nutrients, petrified people wouldn't return to normal when the spell was cast on them; they'd turn to dead.

The spell effect is: "transforms stone to flesh."

Transform- to change in composition or structure
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter of which rock is made.
Flesh- the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human.

There's nothing in the spell saying the flesh is created is special in any way, not that it's especially tasty and healthy to eat, nor that it's untasty and/or unhealthy.
It's just average flesh.
Just like the Basilisk's petrification ability doesn't say the stone created is soft and/or fleshlike in any way, so it's not.
Just like "Create Bread & Milk" doesn't say that it's only skim milk and Keto bread, so it's not.
Just like Fireball doesn't say it creates luke-warm fire that splashes around like water, or flows like air.

If the spells don't specify or describe an effect, it isn't there.
If we didn't know, for example, that the spell could be used to de-petrify people turned to stone, the description would only affect their actual flesh, leaving bone and skin still stoned.
But it does say that, so we do know it, or at the least can safely assume it.

By this logic, then anything cast by it becomes a fruit. Since that has flesh too. Just as nitpicky.

[Library Ogre]

Stone to flesh flesh would not be fulfilling in the slightest. It would create the tissue, but you're talking flesh with no developed muscle, no nutrients, other than the nutrients from that particular rock itself. Since by the logic that it can convert any rock to flesh, it doesn't say that it creates any particular nutrients or anything like that. So you'd still be eating rock, just soft gooey rock.

If the spell couldn't create nutrients, petrified people wouldn't return to normal when the spell was cast on them; they'd turn to dead.

The spell effect is: "transforms stone to flesh."

Transform- to change in composition or structure
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter of which rock is made.
Flesh- the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human.

There's nothing in the spell saying the flesh is created is special in any way, not that it's especially tasty and healthy to eat, nor that it's untasty and/or unhealthy.
It's just average flesh.
Just like the Basilisk's petrification ability doesn't say the stone created is soft and/or fleshlike in any way, so it's not.
Just like "Create Bread & Milk" doesn't say that it's only skim milk and Keto bread, so it's not.
Just like Fireball doesn't say it creates luke-warm fire that splashes around like water, or flows like air.

If the spells don't specify or describe an effect, it isn't there.
If we didn't know, for example, that the spell could be used to de-petrify people turned to stone, the description would only affect their actual flesh, leaving bone and skin still stoned.
But it does say that, so we do know it, or at the least can safely assume it.

By this logic, then anything cast by it becomes a fruit. Since that has flesh too. Just as nitpicky.

It only becomes a fruit if cast in June.

Happy Pride!

[hup7]

I am not sure everyone is using the same definition of the words. Now we need to be careful English has multiple uses / meanings for a lot of words. The word “and” has nine usages (possibly more) that I know. It is, given the rather short spell description almost impossible to definitively know what the author intended. Anything we assume is just our own interpretation, not a clarified fact.

"This spell transforms stone to flesh and can restore people who have been turned to stone back to normal."

A lot of people are taking the "and" as connecting two different things - "bread and butter." They are saying the spell can turn stone to flesh, and the spell can restore people who have been turned to stone. The spell has two separate functions.

Then they assume the "flesh" is edible, nutritious and not poisonous. Why? The flesh of many plants is poisonous, the flesh of some animals is poisonous. The flesh of some animals is not at all nutritious. Is the assumption that the "flesh" is human because the spell ALSO restores those previously turned to stone back to their flesh? But then does the rock become a homogenous blob? Is some of the flesh human brain matter? Are you then eating human flesh? And why would it be human when any creature could be turned to stone? And if you want to take that even more literally does that mean someone restored doesn't have any bones?

My reading of the sentence uses a different definition or usage of the word "and"; which is to introduce additional comment or interjection or show that one thing causes another. "The government lied to us in the past and now no one will believe them." Consider the following:

"This spell transforms stone to flesh and therefore can restore people who have been turned to stone back to normal."

Yes, a word was added for clarity but even if you remove the extra word the meaning is still the same if using "and" as an additional comment on WHAT stone can be turned to flesh. Suddenly the spell makes perfect sense and there is no need for interpreting what “flesh” is created. Personally, that is how I read / interpret the spell - I might be wrong, but that is MY interpretation.

However, that does not mean I would not allow people to creatively use the spell. Do you have to get through a wall of stone – turn it to flesh and carve your way through. Fine. Turn stone to flesh to eat? Or simply to create flesh? Well let me think – can I abuse it. Do you get to choose the type of flesh it creates? Can I create dragon blood? Why not? Seems to open a can of worms I would rather not have in my campaign. Not to mention the most likely instance is you are eating human (or whatever species you are) flesh. It is a high level spell and depending on the circumstances (I would probably make the caster roll some skill check that might be appropriate – biology? Chemistry? Hunting?) I would probably allow it – but as a general, daily use probably not.

If you are using a high level spell to create food - there are better options. Yes, I am constantly amazed that Create Water is such a high level spell, but hey half the fun of Rifts is the randomness.

Have fun, use the spell how you and your GM agree.

[drewkitty ~..~]

...
Transform- to change in composition or structure
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter of which rock is made.
Flesh- the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human.

...

correction of idea:
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter another word for Rock.

[darthauthor]

Hup7,

What are the better options?

[hup7]

Create Bread and Milk (PF p198)
Troop Supply (R#29 p40)
Sustain (BoM p109)

Not to mention most of the summons. But hey if you don't want to eat your summons - just send them out to hunt. Really I would simply be using spells to hunt or gather food.

Further from "standard" casters biomancer has a few options, as well as others. Maybe check out Cargo Cult (R#47 p25)

Anyhow just my opinion - happy gaming.

[darthauthor]

hup7,

I thought about what you wrote.

"Why not Dragon or dragon's blood?"

As a GM, I would say the magic would NOT create the flesh of a supernatural being or creature of magic.

Basically, as food it is harmless. Well, food that has to be cooked (BBQ - yum).

As the spell restores those who have been turned to stone whether they are human or orc or D-Bee. Looking at it like that it would not, in my mind, make stone into human flesh exclusively.

You ask a GOOD question with, "Can I abuse it?"

Well, as a GM or player the first thought is, "Can it be used to kill, harm or otherwise incapacitate someone?"

You are a creative sort, can you see a way?

I don't.

I feel we can both agree the spell does no damage. So it is useless as an attack.

So I keep asking myself, "How can it be abused after that?"

In the narrowist interpretation the spell can only be used for one thing and one thing only. Turning people back to normal who were turned to stone by a spell or something.

Besides that, turning people to stone never happened in the games I was in either.

Does it happen much in yours?

[taalismn]

h
Does it happen much in yours?

Not INTENTIONALLY, mind you....
It's more the anime-style "you just got friend-zoned; the love of your life chatters away oblivious to the fact that you've just turned to stone upon learning she's romantically seeing a Titan."


OR.... 'Damnit, Al, of all the beings you choose to date, why'd it have to be a GORGON? And YOU, young lady, what did we say about wearing PROTECTION??!!!!"
Gorgon: "I'm really sorry..the hairnet just...slipped..."
"Okay, alright....let me just get out the destoner and fix this..."

[Grazzik]

Fast Food (CE SB2 pg 37) for when you have an item of food that can be copied.

[Soldier of Od]

"This spell transforms stone to flesh and can restore people who have been turned to stone back to normal."

Interesting ideas, hup7, but I would point out the wording of the Stone to Flesh spell in the Palladium Fantasy main book: "This transformation spell enables the spell caster to change 50 pounds (22.6 kg) of stone per level of experience, into flesh. This spell will also restore people who have been turned to stone, via magic petrification, back to normal."
The different phrasing in this book shows more clearly that the spell can do both things (on the Palladium World, at least). What exactly the flesh is, however, is still open to some interpretation!

[ShadowLogan]

A list of Food & Water Production Magic that I found going through the Rifts Book of Magic, and I probably missed some stuff so this is by no means a complete list.

Long Term (farming or gardening):
-Accelerate Plant Growth (Biomancy)
-Grow Plants (Elemental: Earth)

Food Generating Items:
-Feast Sign (Nazcan Line), provides energy but no nutrients (or water). Okay for short term and potentially PPE efficient (6PPE = 6 wafers, 2 wafers = 1 meal)
-Bottomless Purse: Kanebukoro (Japan), type2 (4x per day)
-Palladium Fantasy magic items include a water skin (produces #gallons of water per day)

Survival Style (find/convert/summon):
-ID Plants (Elemental: Earth)
-Dowsing (Elemental: Water)
-Salt Water to Fresh (Elemental: Water)
-Liquids to Water (Elemental: Water)
-Water to Wine (Wizard)
-Purification (Wizard), can purify existing source of water or food contaminated with disease, toxins, and bacteria
-Various Summon Spells (Wizard, Circle, etc)

Water (most indirectly, by converting ice it creates into liquid but):
-Freeze Water (Elemental: Air)
-Wave of Frost (Elemental: Air, Wizard)
-Sheet of Ice (Elemental: Water)
-Create Water (Elemental: Water, Wizard, Cloud)
-Orb of Cold (Wizard)
-Ice

Food:
-Feast from Heavens (Cloud)
-Sculpt & Animate Clay Animals Spell Chain for Zombies (Elemental: Earth and Air)
-Stone to Flesh (Elemental: Earth, Wizard. NOTE: Elemental is x2 as powerful per level)
-Create Bread & Water (Wizard)
-Sustain

Assessments:
Using a Summon & Control: XXX means you could summon one or more creatures that you could then convert into food by some means (either via using it in hunting, like for bait or tracking, etc, or directly by killing it).

Water to Wine. Technically you should be able to get some nutritional value from consuming wine. Though here you need a source of water to turn into wine, but there is the Create Water spell or other methods to create water (by capturing melting ice that was magically created).

The Sculpt & Animate Clay Animals from Earth Elemental magic has a spell chain (w/ Clay to Stone, Stone to Flesh) that requires an Air branch spell (Breath of Life) that can be used to create a fleshy Zombie-like creature. If available this might be the best option since you could in theory get an entire “animal” to use for food and might avoid the issue of “flesh” using just the Stone to Flesh spell due to the spell chain.

Stone to Flesh. The primary purpose of the spell is to reverse petrifaction, but it is worded such that it can be used to turn stone into flesh. The only real issue I see is what form that “flesh” would take if the rock was not sourced via petrifaction (is it animal or plant flesh or something else?). I’m going to also ignore the chemical composition of the rock in question issue, and just assume that the magic involves alchemy (turn one element into another). In terms of raw production for the PPE spent, Stone to Flesh can be very effective (50 or 100 lbs per level depending on if you are using the Wizard or Elemental version of the spell) when compared to Create Bread and Milk at later levels.

Create Bread and Milk. It crates 2d6 loaves of bread of undetermined size, plus 1 gallon of milk. A Gallon of Milk has a weight of approx. 8.6lbs. Bread Pans come in a variety of sizes between yielding a loaf of 1-2.5lbs (via quick google search, possibly even smaller) depending on size, so 2-30lbs of bread depending on how many loaves are created and how large they are. However, this does not go up in level, so after a few levels Stone to Flesh (combined with Create Water) will produce more with less PPE spent for food and drink.

[hup7]

"Why not Dragon or dragon's blood?"
As a GM, I would say the magic would NOT create the flesh of a supernatural being or creature of magic.

So, you cannot restore a dragon (probably a hatchling given the weight limitation) who has been turned to stone? What about other creatures of magic? IF the spell can restore them - logically it can create their flesh (and their bones, organs, and so on). So, is it abusable to be able to create an unlimited supply of dragon blood? And if you want to say it only creates 'flesh' - that is still fine; dragon tongues are 100,000cr. Is the flesh drained of blood? Note we do bleed most animals before cooking and consuming their flesh so perhaps it comes completely dry morel ike jerky?

As the spell restores those who have been turned to stone whether they are human or orc or D-Bee. Looking at it like that it would not, in my mind, make stone into human flesh exclusively.

Now, I used dragon as the hyperbolic example. However, can a necromancer use the spell to create the flesh of whatever creature they want? The question then becomes does the caster choose the flesh they want? (Note this is why I suggested making the caster roll biology or chemistry or some skill).

You ask a GOOD question with, "Can I abuse it?"
Well, as a GM or player the first thought is, "Can it be used to kill, harm or otherwise incapacitate someone?"

Can it completely disrupt the economy of my game? But yes, if you can choose the flesh - then you have immediate access to an almost unlimited list of toxic chemicals. For instance - tetrodotoxin from puffer fish can be used to kill. I am not going to make a list of dangerous chemicals that can be harvested from animals – but read up poison arrow frogs, toads, jellyfish and so on. How much will unlimited poison and venom disrupt your game? Again the question comes from how much can you sell exotic chemicals for?

You are a creative sort, can you see a way?
So I keep asking myself, "How can it be abused after that?"

My issue isn't with a one-off use to save some people in an emergency, my issue is setting a precedent. I have not read every book cover to cover - is there some d-bee whose flesh explodes on contact with air? I don't know - probably? There are d-bees whose flesh heals? Is some player going to come up with something I haven't thought of - most likely.

Besides that, turning people to stone never happened in the games I was in either.
Does it happen much in yours?

At least one person has been turned to stone in every Rifts game I have ever run or played. There are too many creatures for me to bother making a comprehensive list but off the top of my head: gorgon, basilisk, thornhead, magot, and anyone who can cast the spell Petrification or summon magot.

Now as I mentioned earlier IF I was going to let people make 'flesh' I would impose some sort of roll if they were trying for something edible, otherwise I would randomly determine how inedible it was - from making people sick to making them dead. But as I say there are better options - perhaps I should say more palatable options. Just my opinion.

[Grazzik]

All really good points, Hup7. This is a very abusable spell in my experience and, as a GM, I've always put some sort of limits on it using common sense, rather than relying on quibbled arguments over grammar.

[darthauthor]

Grazzik,

"This is a very abusable spell in my experience."

Would you share that story?

[darthauthor]

Thinking more about what you have said,

As a GM, I would put three rules about the spell, "Stone to Flesh"

1. First and foremost, it restores those who have been turned to stone.

2. Generic Stone that is converted to flesh cannot be made into the flesh of creatures of magic or supernatural beings. I consider the stone of a being made stone by spell or supernatural ability the exception and can be made back into the supernatural flesh that it before being petrified without complication.

3. For the exotic frog or fish who has poison properties:
A. The stone must be carved by the spell caster into the being whose flesh you are trying to extract things from.
B. The spell caster, if they want the flesh to have the properties they desire must believe, know, and visualize them in a way only someone with the level of skill for such a thing (Zoology).
C. As for posion extraction, I'd imagine the caster would have to have a skills like toxicology or they would ruin it or poison themselves or something.

With all that, I'd remind the player that roleplaying is using your character's knowledge and skills not your own. What they are suggesting with frog poisons and such, is like a D&D player trying to create bomb out of gunpowder when their character had no knowledge of what bombs are (they never saw or heard of one), what gunpowder is or how to make it.

So I'd ask how the spell caster knew about frog poisons and such. Where is the skill selection Zoology and how does it fit in the character's backstory. For someone who has never done it before I'd probably require them to have one of the actual frogs on hand and to have transformed them back and forth from stone to flesh a few times.

If the worst case scenerio is that a spell caster builds themselves such that they have all the skills and spells they need to create frog poison or something then I'd have to remember IF a player character wants to play a baby dragon that's a thing. Also, that the world of Rifts has demons and adult dragons. That poison has to be stored carefully and used safely. That EBA's exist. So do Partical Heavey Weapons and "Call Lightning" spells and Glitter Boys giant robots. Also, a lot of monsters and such are immune to things like poison and diseases.

IF someone really wants to kill you there are ways whether that is an exotic frog poison or something more mainstream like an MD energy rifle.

I do like your creativity though.

How would you, as a player, use frog poison?

[Grazzik]

Grazzik,

"This is a very abusable spell in my experience."

Would you share that story?

Long story short, I've been in too many discussions over the nature of spells like this one that lack much canonical definition to really care that much. As a player, live within the limits set by the GM though challenge them. As GM, be clear on what you will or will not allow and stay open to new ideas. As hup7 suggested, players will find ways to squeeze every last credit or gold piece out of what can be magicked up. I've heard players suggest everything from cloned bodies for surgical transplant to flesh golems to lumps of zombie flesh catapulted over castle walls that regenerate into the full blown zombies devastating a sieged town. All that is perfectly fine for an NPC empowered by handwavium, but giving such leeway to PCs can ruin a good spell by setting the wrong expectations. Whether the GM allows such outlandish ideas comes down to a few contextual elements:

- the setting or game you are playing
- the flavor of story being played out
- the economics of the setting AND the play group... hup7 is right, once a player is told an advantage is OK, they expect that same advantage every single time
- the scale and nature of what the caster is looking to do

My advice to GMs when dealing with ambiguous spells like this one, avoid predefined absolute rules unless you are sure that's how the spell is going to work in your games and you have thought of the consequences for every aspect. Best to just set some general principles and use the context of the scenario to guide use of the spell and if you are slightly inconsistent in your ruling, blame some environmental factor like a pulse of ambient PPE in the mystical ether. I'm a fan of keeping players guessing and entertained through random effects.

[Killer Cyborg]

Stone to flesh flesh would not be fulfilling in the slightest. It would create the tissue, but you're talking flesh with no developed muscle, no nutrients, other than the nutrients from that particular rock itself. Since by the logic that it can convert any rock to flesh, it doesn't say that it creates any particular nutrients or anything like that. So you'd still be eating rock, just soft gooey rock.

If the spell couldn't create nutrients, petrified people wouldn't return to normal when the spell was cast on them; they'd turn to dead.

The spell effect is: "transforms stone to flesh."

Transform- to change in composition or structure
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter of which rock is made.
Flesh- the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human.

There's nothing in the spell saying the flesh is created is special in any way, not that it's especially tasty and healthy to eat, nor that it's untasty and/or unhealthy.
It's just average flesh.
Just like the Basilisk's petrification ability doesn't say the stone created is soft and/or fleshlike in any way, so it's not.
Just like "Create Bread & Milk" doesn't say that it's only skim milk and Keto bread, so it's not.
Just like Fireball doesn't say it creates luke-warm fire that splashes around like water, or flows like air.

If the spells don't specify or describe an effect, it isn't there.
If we didn't know, for example, that the spell could be used to de-petrify people turned to stone, the description would only affect their actual flesh, leaving bone and skin still stoned.
But it does say that, so we do know it, or at the least can safely assume it.

By this logic, then anything cast by it becomes a fruit. Since that has flesh too. Just as nitpicky.

Not according to the primary definition of "flesh" in the dictionaries I've looked at.

I'd say that use of "flesh" is metaphorical.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am not sure everyone is using the same definition of the words. Now we need to be careful English has multiple uses / meanings for a lot of words. The word “and” has nine usages (possibly more) that I know. It is, given the rather short spell description almost impossible to definitively know what the author intended. Anything we assume is just our own interpretation, not a clarified fact.

"This spell transforms stone to flesh and can restore people who have been turned to stone back to normal."

A lot of people are taking the "and" as connecting two different things - "bread and butter." They are saying the spell can turn stone to flesh, and the spell can restore people who have been turned to stone. The spell has two separate functions.

Then they assume the "flesh" is edible, nutritious and not poisonous. Why? The flesh of many plants is poisonous, the flesh of some animals is poisonous. The flesh of some animals is not at all nutritious. Is the assumption that the "flesh" is human because the spell ALSO restores those previously turned to stone back to their flesh? But then does the rock become a homogenous blob? Is some of the flesh human brain matter? Are you then eating human flesh? And why would it be human when any creature could be turned to stone? And if you want to take that even more literally does that mean someone restored doesn't have any bones?

My reading of the sentence uses a different definition or usage of the word "and"; which is to introduce additional comment or interjection or show that one thing causes another. "The government lied to us in the past and now no one will believe them." Consider the following:

"This spell transforms stone to flesh and therefore can restore people who have been turned to stone back to normal."

Yes, a word was added for clarity but even if you remove the extra word the meaning is still the same if using "and" as an additional comment on WHAT stone can be turned to flesh. Suddenly the spell makes perfect sense and there is no need for interpreting what “flesh” is created. Personally, that is how I read / interpret the spell - I might be wrong, but that is MY interpretation.

Hm.
Well, even just adding the "therefore" would leave the original connotation, that the primary effect of the spell is to turn stone into flesh, with the ability to de-petrify people.

I think what you're going for would be more along the lines of "This spell can restore people who have been turned to stone back to normal, by transforming the stone back into flesh."

Which actually could be what Palladium intended to say; their language is incredibly imprecise.

But as it's written, the spell isn't restricted just to petrified people, and can be used on any stone.

However, that does not mean I would not allow people to creatively use the spell. Do you have to get through a wall of stone – turn it to flesh and carve your way through. Fine. Turn stone to flesh to eat? Or simply to create flesh? Well let me think – can I abuse it. Do you get to choose the type of flesh it creates? Can I create dragon blood? Why not? Seems to open a can of worms I would rather not have in my campaign. Not to mention the most likely instance is you are eating human (or whatever species you are) flesh. It is a high level spell and depending on the circumstances (I would probably make the caster roll some skill check that might be appropriate – biology? Chemistry? Hunting?) I would probably allow it – but as a general, daily use probably not.

If you are using a high level spell to create food - there are better options. Yes, I am constantly amazed that Create Water is such a high level spell, but hey half the fun of Rifts is the randomness.

Have fun, use the spell how you and your GM agree.

Exactly.

[Killer Cyborg]

...
Transform- to change in composition or structure
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter of which rock is made.
Flesh- the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human.

...

correction of idea:
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter another word for Rock.

Let Encyclopedia.com know your complaint.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/science-an ... ures/stone

[drewkitty ~..~]

...
Transform- to change in composition or structure
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter of which rock is made.
Flesh- the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human.

...

correction of idea:
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter another word for Rock.

Let Encyclopedia.com know your complaint.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/science-an ... ures/stone

Thank you for posting a text that supports my correction.

[Killer Cyborg]

...
Transform- to change in composition or structure
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter of which rock is made.
Flesh- the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human.

...

correction of idea:
Stone- hard solid nonmetallic mineral matter another word for Rock.

Let Encyclopedia.com know your complaint.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/science-an ... ures/stone

Thank you for posting a text that supports my correction.

It’s apparently where I got the direct quote you took issue with.
If reading more of the same source sorted everything out for you, you are indeed welcome.