Spoiled for Choice? Wizards cause problems

[slade the sniper]

A "problem" that I have observed is that wizards (especially) seem to have too many choices when it comes to options in combat/utility. Mundane characters or psionics (or those who get a fixed number of abilities) pick their options and those are their options for that game (at least). A wizard (in Rifts, other Palladium games, but especially in other game systems) seem to be spoiled for choice and are often stuck between A, A[sub]1[/sub], A[sub]2[/sub], A[sub]3[/sub], A[sup]1[/sup], A[sup]2[/sup] and A[sup]3[/sup] when each option is just a bit different from the other options. A mundane would have a choice of frag grenade or flash bang, and a psion would have a choice attack or invisibility... but a magic user has a choice of a bunch of spells that all slightly different from each other.

This problem seems to arise from how different classes get rewarded. Most are cool with cash or guns or XP, but magic using OCCs seem to attract spell collectors who want spells, more and more spells. That is how they choose to attack the problems in RPGs. Do more choices lower creativity and speed at the table?

Is this something that only I have experienced or is this an issue for others?

-STS

[eliakon]

I see it as a feature not a bug.
A lot of my mages *do* go out of their way to collect tons of spells and try and get all the neat variations and whatnot...
but when it comes to doing things they tend to have a core list of "go to spells" that they use.
A couple DD spells
Maybe an AOE or DOT if they know one
An Armor Spell
A couple favorite debuffs
A couple favorite buffs
maybe a healing spell

Most of the minor variations tend to never get used or get pulled out for specialist situations.
Or the mage might be like a friend of mine who put all the similar combat spells on cards and drew them in battle so as to generate a "skittles" effect of different beams and bolts flying everywhere.

[Killer Cyborg]

Do more choices lower creativity and speed at the table?

Short answer, Yes.

Long answer, it depends heavily on how good the players are at basic utility filtration. Some players will literally pore over every piece of equipment, every skill, every ability, and so forth, before making a decision when their turn comes, because they legit have to LOOK at "Climbing" to know whether or not it might be a good idea to do in the middle of a pitched firefight in a flat field.

The classic example in my own gaming experience was playing Middle Earth RPG back in high school. The party was exploring some ruins. My dwarf warrior was down on the ground, and the party's Elf Archer (who knew a couple spells) had climbed a ruined tower to get a good vantage point, when a group of orcs attacked.
I started swinging my axe, fighting for my life.
The elf archer who had a melee-proof high ground and a clear line of fire against the attacking orcs studied his character sheet, then eventually cast a spell to boil the water in his waterskin, so he could squirt boiling water 20' or so down at the attacking orcs. Which effectively did nothing.
Since the other half of the party was elsewhere, and couldn't get to me in time, my character died.
Because the dude playing the elf archer had spells, and that distracted him from doing the ONE thing his character was optimized for; shooting orcs full of arrows.

I've seen similar stuff in Rifts quite a bit, though nowhere near as bad. Some mage players want to use magic for EVERYTHING, even though the most obvious and useful thing for them to do in most combat encounters is to do what everybody else is doing; grabbing their gun, seeking cover when possible, and unleashing mega-damage energy blasts at the enemy.
And that stupid Rifter essay reprinted in the RGMG didn't help; I've seen mages take 2-3 attacks to cast a spell for 4d6 MD instead of spending those 2-3 attacks inflicting 4d6 MD (or more) per attack with their weapon.

Many players don't seem to understand that Thinking Outside The Box tends to only be useful when the proverbial Box doesn't already have the situation adequately handled. They want the XP or credit or good feels for coming up with a Clever Idea, when things go faster and smoother most of the time doing the Normal Idea of just shooting the bad guys in a game where shooting the bad guys is really the core of combat.
And for these players, having a dozen or two dozen spells to browse every time they have to make a decision does NOT help things move fast or well.

On the other hand, for players who a) have a pretty good mental grasp on what their spell capabilities are, and b) have a decent understanding of what capabilities are appropriate to a situation and what are not, it doesn't matter significantly if they have a couple dozen spells that are superfluous to the situation.
Especially if the players aren't of the "mages should use all magic all the time like somebody with a hyper-fixated fetish for one narrow slice of their overall life skills" school of thought.

[darthauthor]

I guess it depends on the game.

Part of that is the set up and how good the GM presents the information as well as how good the characters perceive it.

One game I GM'd, the player made the character. I had a rough idea of him but didn't pour over him. I looked mostly for thing like if he had "Sixth Sense" so I had to warn him.

Player rescued some prisoners.
The prisoners are dying of thirst. Everyone is in the middle of the woods with no map or supplies. Nearest stream is at least 5 miles away through rough country. Prisoners are too weak to make it.

Player gave up their canteens of water and was seriously looking at running back and forth to bring back water.

The thing is, the player forgot he had magic spells like "Create Water."
Forgot he had skills like dowsing.
Forgot he could cast "Sustain"
When I had the D-Bee prisoners, who didn't speak American, tried to give him clues, he forgot he had the "Tongues" spell.

Later on he wanted to track some CS grunts who killed the prisoners and took off in a hover vehicle.
I told him hover vehicles don't leave ground tracks. He had to find another way to figure out their destination.

I hoped he would clue into using the "Locate" spell. That or using tech to zero in on their location by radio messaging. He didn't pick Radio: Basic or such.

I kind of had to change how I GM'd after the game and after I re-read his character sheet.
I explained to him that he had the skils, spell, and even could have role-played his way threw obstacles but he just forgot what his character could do. Pretty much shot and destroyed his way threw everything he encountered unless he couldn't then he ran away.

I had to add NPC's to his every adventure that would say things and being lower level would fail at their attempts to do spells for lack of PPE or really because I wanted the player to do it.
NPC's lead the way for the player to remind them spells they already had and the ones that would not work vs the ones that would.

In short, the player need an NPC to be an example and reminder to them of how the world worked and did not work.

Examples:

The jail cell with a theif in it who complains, "If only my had my lock picking tools I could unlock the cell door. You wouldn't happen to know any spells would you?" The player character has "Escape" spell.

[slade the sniper]

Um... those stories are kinda painful. Were those bad players or just... bad at remembering things? Isn't that what a character sheet is for?

-STS

[!REAPER!]

My experiences are very similar to Killer Cyborg sadly. I also have to deal with the players spending too many minutes going over scenarios in their heads of what might happen if they cast THIS spell instead of THAT one. Very much a case of analysis paralysis. Fortunately I never had to worry as much about them not wanting to use their other gear and weapons.

[slade the sniper]

My experiences are very similar to Killer Cyborg sadly. I also have to deal with the players spending too many minutes going over scenarios in their heads of what might happen if they cast THIS spell instead of THAT one. Very much a case of analysis paralysis. Fortunately I never had to worry as much about them not wanting to use their other gear and weapons.

That illustrates my case perfectly.... when you have a small tool box but are very good with those tools, you can be creative and fast. When a wizard or some other toolkit heavy class has to do something, it just takes forever for the PC to do anything.

I don't want to penalize players of magic OCCs but it just such a recurring issue that I don't want to deal with it anymore as GM.

-STS

[darthauthor]

I feel like the players in my games are . . . I'm not sure there is a word for it.

They make new characters a lot of the time.

Sometimes forgot who they are playing and what their character's can do.

Play the same regardless of the character they are playing.

I feel like they suffer from a lack of BOTH memory and creativity due to impatience and desire brute force their way through problems. Felt like they suffered from the kind of inside the box thinking (use violence) instead of magic, psionics, role-playing or skills.

[Fenris2020]

I use a timer.
Doesn't matter if they're a mage or mundane, if you haven't got what you're going to do within 30 seconds you've lost initiative and an action.
Being a combat vet, I can tell you that thinking for 30 seconds is a long time.

[darthauthor]

I just remembered a teenager player (daughter of one of the players) who played an atlantean undead slayer.

When she leveled up she was entitled to a new magical atlantean tattoo.

She mostly operated on her supernatural strength. Most of her tattoos she never used and because it she had a chance to get a new one she couldn't decide what she wanted to get. Felt a great deal of pressure trying to decide. Told her she didn't have to decide today just that it was her due and that she needed to tell me what it would be before she used it.

She is not a bad person but an uncomplicated player.

I guess it is like the favorite level of a video game.
Some players just want to run and gun.
Puzzle solving, dialogue picks, scene exploration, easter egg hunting, companion interaction, things like that they just don't want to do.

Some video games provide you with more than one way (I think the classic is 2 or 3 ways) to resolve an obstacle depending on your attributes, inventory (have the tool or ingredient or go find it), powers, and skills.

[The Beast]

Do more choices lower creativity and speed at the table?

No and yes.

More choices don't lower creativity. If you're playing a Man-at-Arms class your choices are pretty much limited to which weapon do you use in combat. Those with extra abilities (be they magic, psychic, mutant, or whatever) might be able to use their powers to do something other than shoot the monster.

More choices will slow the game down though, mainly because Palladium doesn't always clearly define what a power can and can't do, and leave it for the GM to handle. This in-turn leads to the GM and player needing to hash out exactly what the player's wanting to try, looking up the ability to see if it could conceivably do what the player wants to do, figure out if there's some obscure Palladium rule that would/wouldn't allow the player to try their idea, see if the idea goes against a previous ruling the GM already made, and so forth.

And that's problems not just limited to Palladium Book's games. My current group is playing a D&D campaign at the moment and we occasionally have to stop and figure out something when one of us try to get creative with a power and the idea isn't exactly covered in the rules. Nor are the mundanes immune to this sort of thing. I once ran a PFRPG game where our dwarf fighter decided to pole vault over a bunch of orcs that were stuck in a Carpet of Adhesion. He took about two minutes to come up with this idea by the time it got to his turn when he could have attacked with a ranged weapon or split (which was what the others in the party had in mind, IIRC). The table then took another couple minutes to see what skill pole vaulting would fall under, if there was something in PFRPG that wouldn't allow this, and so on before I told him to give me a decent d20 roll to see if he cleared everything.

[Aermas]

There are a lot of people who have poor critical thinking skills. It has nothing to do with magic options versus more mundane problem solving, or even their personal level of creativity. It just feels highlighted. Sometime you get a person with great critical thinking skills who can REALLY make a complicated character shine. A situation pops up & they devise a solution from the most obscure & arcane of sources, & never even slowed down the game.

Some people "play the character sheet" & think that is their only interface to the game world.

[eliakon]

I would agree that its not a problem with having choices. Its a problem with some players having analysis paralysis.

[hup7]

I use a timer.
Doesn't matter if they're a mage or mundane, if you haven't got what you're going to do within 30 seconds you've lost initiative and an action.
Being a combat vet, I can tell you that thinking for 30 seconds is a long time.

This ^. (glad I am not the only GM who can be this brutal) I remind players combat is fast and dangerous - you will make the wrong decision time to time, but it is more important to make a decision, compared to doing nothing. Donjon's initiative tracker for 5e has a timer (which you can pause if you need to explain something as a GM) next to the current players turn - just choose how long (30 seconds IS longer than most people think) if they haven't decided by then - 'default' action if they have a valid target.

In DnD, I advise players to have a "default" action - cantrip, shoot bow or use sword if enemy nearby or something like that. The same holds in Rifts have something you WILL do as your default action. Players should be thinking about what they are going to while everyone else is acting. With spell casters (or psionics) there is usually a "good" default action - honestly if you have it you can never go wrong with magic net - the opponent (or opponents) have to use and action to defend - so worst case they used up their action, best case an opponent is taken out of the fight for some time. This is usually my goto, if I am playing a character that cannot cast magic net - buy a netgun or device as soon as possible. Another great one is the storm rifle - wind rush; as far as action economy goes you put someone out of commission for a limited amount of time.

Certainly discuss with characters what they will do when pushed... Sixth sense is a perfect example you have very limited time to decide.

[Killer Cyborg]

I would agree that its not a problem with having choices. Its a problem with some players having analysis paralysis.

Succinctly said!

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I use a timer.
Doesn't matter if they're a mage or mundane, if you haven't got what you're going to do within 30 seconds you've lost initiative and an action.
Being a combat vet, I can tell you that thinking for 30 seconds is a long time.

I like the timer idea. It's inconsiderate of people to take longer than 30-60 seconds anyway.

The only way I think it'd be difficult to keep track of your spells, is if you're a Lord Magus. Not as much with the High Magus, since they don't have many low level spells that'd be used in the middle of combat.

But most average mage OCCs from low to mid levels don't know that many spells. And if someone can't keep track of that limited number, then they should either play a different class, or design their character to use a very specific set of spells that they'd remember easily. Like, all spells related to fire, or electricity, or healing, etc.

[Crimson Dynamo]

There's very little reason for a player to take a ridiculous amount of time deciding what to do when their turn comes up. They've had however long it's taken everyone else at the table to get through their moves. It doesn't matter if they're a magician or not; having a lot of options doesn't change a thing.

The only real exceptions are 1) if the player right before them does something completely unexpected that throws them off guard, or 2) they're the first to act in a new combat situation. In either case, a little extra time is both understandable and excusable.

Coming up with mechanics or tricks to try to solve the problem is treating the symptom, not the cause. You need to just take the player aside after the game or sometime before the next session, and explain to them what they're doing is a problem and they need to work on it.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Coming up with mechanics or tricks to try to solve the problem is treating the symptom, not the cause. You need to just take the player aside after the game or sometime before the next session, and explain to them what they're doing is a problem and they need to work on it.

I like timers though, because they add psychological pressure. In a real world situation, even something as simple as talking to someone face-to-face, we feel some psychological pressure (subconsciously or not) to answer somebody quickly, lest we look stupid, indecisive, like we're not paying attention, etc.

Even when playing a single-player RPG video game, I don't want to have all the time in the world to make a decision. It's just not realistic. I like mechanics that nudge you along, as long as it's not obnoxious.

[slade the sniper]

I love the timer idea. I used it.... once. My players noped out of that and basically said they play RPGs for fun, not a tactical exercise in stress. So that was the one and only time I used it.

-STS

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I love the timer idea. I used it.... once. My players noped out of that and basically said they play RPGs for fun, not a tactical exercise in stress. So that was the one and only time I used it.

-STS

I'unno, seems like a weak excuse for them to use. A lot of games are timed. Jeopardy, Pictionary, Scrabble, etc.

I guess it depends on how a person philosophically approaches a game. I consider it enjoyable based on A) offering some kind of intellectual or problem solving challenge, and B) learning how to work within the rules system to overcome said challenges. If you aren't limited by sometimes annoying rules, then the challenge part kind of goes out the window.

But if screwing around is the chief consideration....

[Fenris2020]

I love the timer idea. I used it.... once. My players noped out of that and basically said they play RPGs for fun, not a tactical exercise in stress. So that was the one and only time I used it.

-STS

Beats having nap-time while some doof takes 15 minutes to figure out what to do.

[Aermas]

I love the timer idea. I used it.... once. My players noped out of that and basically said they play RPGs for fun, not a tactical exercise in stress. So that was the one and only time I used it.

-STS

Beats having nap-time while some doof takes 15 minutes to figure out what to do.

Now that I'm older & have kids... naps are something I look forward to...

[Fenris2020]

I love the timer idea. I used it.... once. My players noped out of that and basically said they play RPGs for fun, not a tactical exercise in stress. So that was the one and only time I used it.

-STS

Beats having nap-time while some doof takes 15 minutes to figure out what to do.

Now that I'm older & have kids... naps are something I look forward to...

Just not during a game-session.

[Curbludgeon]

Certain timers are stressful, just based on their sounds. Have you played Scattergories? The timers I've seen for that seem intentionally offputting. Even something like the Final Jeopardy theme can come off poorly. Have some 20 second half-pleasant clip (maybe purring with chimes near the end?) and people could more easily get behind the idea that option paralysis slows gameplay.

[slade the sniper]

Certain timers are stressful, just based on their sounds. Have you played Scattergories? The timers I've seen for that seem intentionally offputting. Even something like the Final Jeopardy theme can come off poorly. Have some 20 second half-pleasant clip (maybe purring with chimes near the end?) and people could more easily get behind the idea that option paralysis slows gameplay.

Thank you for that idea!

-STS

[Quentin Harlech]

Beats having nap-time while some doof takes 15 minutes to figure out what to do.

Eh, if a timer that drives away players is the only thing you can think of to help with the situation, that says a lot about your creativity as a GM.

[Aermas]

Certain timers are stressful, just based on their sounds. Have you played Scattergories? The timers I've seen for that seem intentionally offputting. Even something like the Final Jeopardy theme can come off poorly. Have some 20 second half-pleasant clip (maybe purring with chimes near the end?) and people could more easily get behind the idea that option paralysis slows gameplay.

Ha! I have a friend who HATES the jeopardy theme. We'll be talking & he'll stop to think of a word or something & if you start humming/singing it, even though there is literally no pressure, he will freak out

[Fenris2020]

Beats having nap-time while some doof takes 15 minutes to figure out what to do.

Eh, if a timer that drives away players is the only thing you can think of to help with the situation, that says a lot about your creativity as a GM.

I've never had a timer drive anyone away. Guess my players aren't that weak-minded.
I have asked people who don't know their characters' abilities after two or three sessions to leave, however.

[Hotrod]

I made a spell selector tool that broke down spells by category, level, and actions to cast. I’ve found it quite helpful in playing/writing spell-casting characters. It’s on my Patreon page if you’re curious.

[Hotrod]

Also, in fairness to the players who get confused or find themselves with analysis paralysis, consider that lots of players get handed pre-generated characters with either a disorganized wall of text describing the spells they know, or else being told that they know “all spells level 1-XX” with a few extras. If you don’t already have the spell section memorized, you’re going to struggle. This is especially true at convention games.

The learning curve for spell casters is steep, and the way spells are organized and presented in the book and in stat blocks and character sheets is a significant part of the problem. I’d known this game for 25 years and I still found it annoying to handle spell casting NPCs for this reason. Making a spell selection tool was a literal game changer for me in this way.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

The learning curve for spell casters is steep, and the way spells are organized and presented in the book and in stat blocks and character sheets is a significant part of the problem. I’d known this game for 25 years and I still found it annoying to handle spell casting NPCs for this reason. Making a spell selection tool was a literal game changer for me in this way.

I've tried to come up with my own lists of 'must have' spells, but invariably I end up with, like, 30+ spells, at which point it's not a useful list anymore.

I have noticed a trend where I want to take a disproportionate number of spells from the level 4-11 range. I think the middle levels are where the most versatility and power can be found. High-level spells are generally impractical for everyday use, and the 1-3 range are generally too weak to do more than provide brief distractions or otherwise minor advantages.

One thing I do with my character sheets, is separate spells that are level 1-5 from anything higher. I try to avoid casting anything 6+ in the middle of a fight. At least not without cover or some kind of protective/stealth spell running first.

[Hotrod]

The learning curve for spell casters is steep, and the way spells are organized and presented in the book and in stat blocks and character sheets is a significant part of the problem. I’d known this game for 25 years and I still found it annoying to handle spell casting NPCs for this reason. Making a spell selection tool was a literal game changer for me in this way.

I've tried to come up with my own lists of 'must have' spells, but invariably I end up with, like, 30+ spells, at which point it's not a useful list anymore.

I have noticed a trend where I want to take a disproportionate number of spells from the level 4-11 range. I think the middle levels are where the most versatility and power can be found. High-level spells are generally impractical for everyday use, and the 1-3 range are generally too weak to do more than provide brief distractions or otherwise minor advantages.

One thing I do with my character sheets, is separate spells that are level 1-5 from anything higher. I try to avoid casting anything 6+ in the middle of a fight. At least not without cover or some kind of protective/stealth spell running first.

How I broke spells down:
First, I categorized them into the following bins: Disable, Attack, Empower, Protect, Spy/Evade, Move, Heal, Get Minion, Communicate, and Affect Object.

Next I clustered and color coded the spells in each category by the actions required to cast each spell: 1, 2, 3, or Ritual Only.

Finally, I put each spell in level order in its group, and I included the level, spell name, P.P.E. cost, Duration, range and radius, and its RUE page number.

Doing it this way, you can quickly choose what kind of action you want to take, select according to the actions you have available, and voila! You've narrowed your choices down to just a few, with their PPE cost and effect/range/radius conveniently listed for quick comparison. There's a lot less to analyze/compare, and all the vital information is right there.

Want to do a magic attack with one action? You have five options, one of which is for undead only (Lifeblast). One does S.D.C., one lets you zap people for 1 melee, one is a one-shot fire bolt, and one lets you do MDC punches. It's *so* much faster and easier for me.

[Fenris2020]

Also, in fairness to the players who get confused or find themselves with analysis paralysis, consider that lots of players get handed pre-generated characters with either a disorganized wall of text describing the spells they know, or else being told that they know “all spells level 1-XX” with a few extras. If you don’t already have the spell section memorized, you’re going to struggle. This is especially true at convention games.

The learning curve for spell casters is steep, and the way spells are organized and presented in the book and in stat blocks and character sheets is a significant part of the problem. I’d known this game for 25 years and I still found it annoying to handle spell casting NPCs for this reason. Making a spell selection tool was a literal game changer for me in this way.

I never hand out when I run, nor accept when I play, pre-gens.
Why? No-one makes a character the same way. You can have six people, all of whom want to play, say a Ley Line Walker. Two are going to make elves, one will make a D'Nor. None are likely to pick exactly the same spells, and definitely not the same skills.
As well, with a pre-gen, the player hasn't invested anything into the creation, and therefor really won't care what happens to the character (most pre-gens tend to be "builds" instead of characters, anyway).

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Want to do a magic attack with one action? You have five options, one of which is for undead only (Lifeblast). One does S.D.C., one lets you zap people for 1 melee, one is a one-shot fire bolt, and one lets you do MDC punches. It's *so* much faster and easier for me.

Sounds like a solid system.

But in the above quoted case, I'd just whip out a MR-15 Particle Beam Rifle instead.

I kid, I kid....

(but no, seriously, I would)

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I never hand out when I run, nor accept when I play, pre-gens.
Why? No-one makes a character the same way. You can have six people, all of whom want to play, say a Ley Line Walker. Two are going to make elves, one will make a D'Nor.

Pfft, Dewtani all the way.

I do agree on pre-gens though. I'd never want to use one.

[hup7]

Having run DnD at conventions in the past. You pretty much can't have people generate characters when you are trying to gather new players. With the much hated 4th edition you could have pregens and still let them pick their powers / cards. Similar when I ran Gamma World. I have always had a bunch of decent pregens (I rarely used those that came with the promotional materials from Hasbro) that people could choose from. Usually you are trying to spruik to new players, rather than existing players.

Rifts? "Hey have you got ten hours? Want to make a character and then come back tomorrow to play that character?" Yes, I am making a joke, but I cannot imagine in my worst nightmares running Rifts at a convention and going through rules, character building and a game with newbies. But worse, I cannot imagine running a rifts game where people bring their homebrewed Rifts super-munchkin to play at a convention.

All that being said - anyone here going to PAX AU and want to run / play a rifts game? I can run a bit of a session zero online if I know who is showing up, to prepare characters. I have few ideas in mind for one-shot scenarios; which can then build into campaigns.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Rifts? "Hey have you got ten hours? Want to make a character and then come back tomorrow to play that character?" Yes, I am making a joke, but I cannot imagine in my worst nightmares running Rifts at a convention and going through rules, character building and a game with newbies. But worse, I cannot imagine running a rifts game where people bring their homebrewed Rifts super-munchkin to play at a convention.

Ha, fair point. I've gotten my Rifts character creation down to like, 2 hours.

As for munchkins, I take a little pride in avoiding those as much as I can. I'll make a few True Atlanteans and Neural Intelligence Terminators just for the hell of it, but if I was going into a public game, I would very likely use a plain old human Mystic just to not ruffle any GM feathers.

If you don't know what kind of game someone's going to run, it's better to have a weak character that can be artificially enhanced (with extra spells available at level 1, or excellent weapons/armor, or starting at level 5 instead of level 1, etc), rather than a hyper-optimized character that can't really be dialed back.

[Fenris2020]

Having run DnD at conventions in the past. You pretty much can't have people generate characters when you are trying to gather new players. With the much hated 4th edition you could have pregens and still let them pick their powers / cards. Similar when I ran Gamma World. I have always had a bunch of decent pregens (I rarely used those that came with the promotional materials from Hasbro) that people could choose from. Usually you are trying to spruik to new players, rather than existing players.

Rifts? "Hey have you got ten hours? Want to make a character and then come back tomorrow to play that character?" Yes, I am making a joke, but I cannot imagine in my worst nightmares running Rifts at a convention and going through rules, character building and a game with newbies. But worse, I cannot imagine running a rifts game where people bring their homebrewed Rifts super-munchkin to play at a convention.

All that being said - anyone here going to PAX AU and want to run / play a rifts game? I can run a bit of a session zero online if I know who is showing up, to prepare characters. I have few ideas in mind for one-shot scenarios; which can then build into campaigns.

Rifts characters don't take 10 hours; generally 30 minutes to an hour, most of which is writing down skills and equipment.
Rolemaster, on the other hand... yeah, 10 hours.
Also, as for the homebrewed super-munchkins... I'd run a convention game like the ones at home: RAW character only. You want to play a human Vagabond (for whatever reason), fine; a godling? Fine also. Just as long as the character creation process is followed as written.

[Aermas]

If I was at a convention, I'd probably run a CS campaign. Psychics, Psi-Stalkers, Dogboys, Juicer, Borgs, & even Vanguard would be allowed, & let everyone sample all the different avenues of character type. Then point them at some of the crazier & evocative bad guys like the Splugorth & such. Everyone is part of a mixed unit, pick the most trustworthy guy at the table to be the CO. no need for tavern scenes, instead you have a briefing room & some orders.
Simple recon job turns into something big, you take down the slave barge or something & wrap up.

[Fenris2020]

If I was at a convention, I'd probably run a CS campaign. Psychics, Psi-Stalkers, Dogboys, Juicer, Borgs, & even Vanguard would be allowed, & let everyone sample all the different avenues of character type. Then point them at some of the crazier & evocative bad guys like the Splugorth & such. Everyone is part of a mixed unit, pick the most trustworthy guy at the table to be the CO. no need for tavern scenes, instead you have a briefing room & some orders.
Simple recon job turns into something big, you take down the slave barge or something & wrap up.

You'd allow Vanguard....

...who would immediately get blasted into atoms by the rest of the party.

As for conventions, I suppose running an all-CS game might work, if you could get the players to be interested.
I prefer to play elves. The friends I show up with might prefer wolfen, dwarves, dragons, et cetera. We like Rifts because of the choices; we have to live as humans, and see no reason to be pigeon-holed into it in a game.
Part of an advantage of playing what you like, is you generally understand what your character can do so you're not slowing up game-play.
If I play an Asgardian High Elf Temporal Warrior, I know what the racial abilities are as well as the OCC abilities, and have my spells planned and I know what they do. A situation arises and I know what my character can do, so I don't take very long to do it.
Give me some pre-made character, I'm probably not going to have much of a clue. If I decide to play a new race and OCC, it might take me a game session or two to fully use the character's advantages and cover for the weaknesses.
I find that usually it's the newer players who try a magic or psychic OCC who slow game-play a bit; it's understandable to a point. Like i said though, if you don't know what your character can do after three game sessions, I generally ask the player to leave or play something... simpler.

[eliakon]

For convention games you sort of *need* Pr-Generated characters.
It comes with the time limit.
At a non-convention game though I agree that you should make your own character.

But this is probably off topic to "spoiled for choice"

[Aermas]

You'd allow Vanguard....

...who would immediately get blasted into atoms by the rest of the party.

Not if they don't show off, or if we talk as adults & decide, Vanguard-Dude is a trusted old friend & everyone kinda knows somethings up but he's been loyal & useful, so as long as no one "sees" anything then the reports are clean.

And even if the occasional lightningbolt goes flying, into the face of a charging Fury Beetle... well, we had some very strange weather today haven't we?

[Hotrod]

Also, in fairness to the players who get confused or find themselves with analysis paralysis, consider that lots of players get handed pre-generated characters with either a disorganized wall of text describing the spells they know, or else being told that they know “all spells level 1-XX” with a few extras. If you don’t already have the spell section memorized, you’re going to struggle. This is especially true at convention games.

The learning curve for spell casters is steep, and the way spells are organized and presented in the book and in stat blocks and character sheets is a significant part of the problem. I’d known this game for 25 years and I still found it annoying to handle spell casting NPCs for this reason. Making a spell selection tool was a literal game changer for me in this way.

I never hand out when I run, nor accept when I play, pre-gens.
Why? No-one makes a character the same way. You can have six people, all of whom want to play, say a Ley Line Walker. Two are going to make elves, one will make a D'Nor. None are likely to pick exactly the same spells, and definitely not the same skills.
As well, with a pre-gen, the player hasn't invested anything into the creation, and therefor really won't care what happens to the character (most pre-gens tend to be "builds" instead of characters, anyway).

In a group where people are going to be coming back and playing together, I take the same approach. As others have mentioned, at conventions, there's just not time, so Rifts games at such get-togethers tend to all be pre-gen characters. That's how Kevin does it with his Lord DeSilca adventure sequence he's run at a bunch of conventions.

GMing raises a similar issue. Most NPC magic users get "all spells level 1-XX." Changing gears from one NPC magic user to another is tricky for me; I like to have different magic-using NPCs take different default approaches. One might like to blast, while another might prefer to cripple foes, while another might focus on protection, and still another might focus on empowering allies, while another might be all about summoning and directing minions, and other might be a coward who's all about escaping and hiding in a fight. Categorized lists help each magic N.P.C. feel and play differently without me having to do much digging.

[Hotrod]

Rifts? "Hey have you got ten hours? Want to make a character and then come back tomorrow to play that character?" Yes, I am making a joke, but I cannot imagine in my worst nightmares running Rifts at a convention and going through rules, character building and a game with newbies. But worse, I cannot imagine running a rifts game where people bring their homebrewed Rifts super-munchkin to play at a convention.

Rifts characters don't take 10 hours; generally 30 minutes to an hour, most of which is writing down skills and equipment.
Rolemaster, on the other hand... yeah, 10 hours.
Also, as for the homebrewed super-munchkins... I'd run a convention game like the ones at home: RAW character only. You want to play a human Vagabond (for whatever reason), fine; a godling? Fine also. Just as long as the character creation process is followed as written.

Wow, you're a lot faster than I am! This whole thread got started because of issues with analysis paralysis in playing a character. Building them? Sheesh, I get bogged down fast. What O.C.C. to pick, how to roll/allocate attributes, what optional skills/abilities to take... I could spend a lot of time just pondering what secondary skills my character will have, even though I'll never use most of them. I get all wrapped up in the personality of the character, how and why he/she would learn a given skill/power, what that means for the character as a person, and how he or she might use such skills in a given scenario. It's part of the fun for me, but it's a huge timesink.

It's even worse for me as a GM, unless I just swag the stats for everything, which I really don't like to do. That's a big part of why I made my NPC generators.

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts? "Hey have you got ten hours? Want to make a character and then come back tomorrow to play that character?" Yes, I am making a joke, but I cannot imagine in my worst nightmares running Rifts at a convention and going through rules, character building and a game with newbies. But worse, I cannot imagine running a rifts game where people bring their homebrewed Rifts super-munchkin to play at a convention.

Rifts characters don't take 10 hours; generally 30 minutes to an hour, most of which is writing down skills and equipment.
Rolemaster, on the other hand... yeah, 10 hours.
Also, as for the homebrewed super-munchkins... I'd run a convention game like the ones at home: RAW character only. You want to play a human Vagabond (for whatever reason), fine; a godling? Fine also. Just as long as the character creation process is followed as written.

Wow, you're a lot faster than I am! This whole thread got started because of issues with analysis paralysis in playing a character. Building them? Sheesh, I get bogged down fast. What O.C.C. to pick, how to roll/allocate attributes, what optional skills/abilities to take... I could spend a lot of time just pondering what secondary skills my character will have, even though I'll never use most of them. I get all wrapped up in the personality of the character, how and why he/she would learn a given skill/power, what that means for the character as a person, and how he or she might use such skills in a given scenario. It's part of the fun for me, but it's a huge timesink.

It's even worse for me as a GM, unless I just swag the stats for everything, which I really don't like to do. That's a big part of why I made my NPC generators.

I can do a Rifts character in 30 minutes. I've probably done one in 15 minutes, back when I was in practice, but it'd be a pretty basic character like a Vagabond or GB pilot.
But I've also spent an hour or multiple hours making a character, depending on what I was going for, because that's pretty darned fun, and there are a TON of books to draw on!


Just little stuff like wanting something more personal than "9mm handgun," and poring through the Compendium of Modern Weapons for a specific make and model, or looking up real-world handguns, finding the type you want, determining that it's not already listed in the books, then determining what Palladium would most likely stat it as, can make a world of difference!
Oh, and you get a melee weapon of choice?
Out comes the book of Armor, Weapons, and Castles...
And it can get at least as complex if you get into various races, esoteric skills, and so forth.

A mutant animal Vagabond with super powers and N&S martial arts can take a LONG time!

[Blue_Lion]

It really comes down to the players. Some are good at finding being creative with their spells and equipment quickly and efficiently. Some get distracted by the choices and slow the game or make poor choices.
Magic users are defiantly one of the harder to play because of the amount of choices.

I have seen creative mages, and a few core ability mages and I have seen stalled mages.

I would generally say a good mage player can make quick choices and adapt on the fly.

[Hotrod]

It really comes down to the players. Some are good at finding being creative with their spells and equipment quickly and efficiently. Some get distracted by the choices and slow the game or make poor choices.
Magic users are defiantly one of the harder to play because of the amount of choices.

I have seen creative mages, and a few core ability mages and I have seen stalled mages.

I would generally say a good mage player can make quick choices and adapt on the fly.

I guess I've just never been a good mage player, at least not until I made my crutch of a spell selector tool. I've generally gravitated more to the skill monkey and simpler-power classes.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

It really comes down to the players. Some are good at finding being creative with their spells and equipment quickly and efficiently. Some get distracted by the choices and slow the game or make poor choices.
Magic users are defiantly one of the harder to play because of the amount of choices.

I have seen creative mages, and a few core ability mages and I have seen stalled mages.

I would generally say a good mage player can make quick choices and adapt on the fly.

I guess I've just never been a good mage player, at least not until I made my crutch of a spell selector tool. I've generally gravitated more to the skill monkey and simpler-power classes.

Have you ever tried Spirit West OCCs? I'm starting to find I really like those, because they're limited in scope.

For example, the Mask Shaman makes masks that have, on average, about 7-8 spells each. At level 1, you get two masks, and I think you can make a new one per subsequent level. Switching them in the middle of a fight takes 2 melee actions, I think.

This would allow you to easily compartmentalize each mask's focus.

The Spirit Warrior also has some limited spells and spell-like abilities that could be used in some pretty inventive ways, but without overwhelming anybody with choices.

[Fenris2020]

You'd allow Vanguard....

...who would immediately get blasted into atoms by the rest of the party.

Not if they don't show off, or if we talk as adults & decide, Vanguard-Dude is a trusted old friend & everyone kinda knows somethings up but he's been loyal & useful, so as long as no one "sees" anything then the reports are clean.

And even if the occasional lightningbolt goes flying, into the face of a charging Fury Beetle... well, we had some very strange weather today haven't we?

It seems... out of character for the CS.
It's kind of like saying to a group of Waffen SS, "Here's Goldstone, the trusted Jew. He's been helping us out for a long time."
As soon as the Dog Boy or Psi-Stalker sense the mage, the mage gets dusted. If you have a squad of people without the psi-sensers, they'll blast the mage at the first sign of a spell. That's how indoctrination works.

[Hotrod]

You'd allow Vanguard....

...who would immediately get blasted into atoms by the rest of the party.

Not if they don't show off, or if we talk as adults & decide, Vanguard-Dude is a trusted old friend & everyone kinda knows somethings up but he's been loyal & useful, so as long as no one "sees" anything then the reports are clean.

And even if the occasional lightningbolt goes flying, into the face of a charging Fury Beetle... well, we had some very strange weather today haven't we?

It seems... out of character for the CS.
It's kind of like saying to a group of Waffen SS, "Here's Goldstone, the trusted Jew. He's been helping us out for a long time."
As soon as the Dog Boy or Psi-Stalker sense the mage, the mage gets dusted. If you have a squad of people without the psi-sensers, they'll blast the mage at the first sign of a spell. That's how indoctrination works.

Psi-stalkers working with other psychics and magic users are instinctively going to see their teammates as prey, and it takes some training and discipline to fight that. However, in the case of the CS, I could see a case for Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers routinely working with other psychics (each other, for instance), so I don't think it's an overwhelming urge.

As for the "goes against the party line/indoctrination" argument, I think that's fair, but reality is always more complicated, and there are plenty of cases where individuals and even some small groups in terrible organizations have bucked their ideology/indoctrination. It's not common, but it happens, even with organizations as extreme, authoritarian, and evil as Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany in WW2. I wouldn't dismiss the idea of CS troops working with magic users. This happens canonically in the Minion Wars. It's also worth noting that there are plenty of CS citizens who were alive back when it had a magic division, and with cybernetics, some of them might even still be serving in the military. There are also soldiers who join the CS Army in order to get citizenship, many of whom have likely grown up around magic users. Not everyone is going to be a true believer, and if a small group is operating well away from hard-core zealots, it seems reasonable that they might ally with a magic user. This would be an exceptional case, but player characters are generally exceptional people.

Authoritarian and fascist regimes like to use propaganda to push the idea of everyone in their nation being fanatical loyaltists in total lockstep with their rulers' ideologies. They can and do get a lot of followers who buy into that, but the idea of them being monolithic societies in which everyone buys into their shared values is a myth propagated by those states (trying to get their citizens on their bandwagons) and their foes (it's easier to fight/kill them if you think they're all evil fanatics who will never see reason). That Rifts allows its players and GMs to explore, adventure, and roleplay through a more nuanced and complex world is one thing I really like about this game and setting.