Golemancers—How do they stay in business?

[taalismn]

Okay, maybe I’m dumb, even after writing up several new kinds of Golem creation spells, but after looking at Rifters #25 and #84, I gotta ask; how do Golemancers stay in business?
The sticking point for me is the permanent loss of 6 SDC (or 4 Hot Points for Earth Warlocks)for activating the Heart….Now, I realize it’s a means of keeping Golemancer PCs from building an army of pain-free, regenerating, magic robots and taking over the world, but as a profession, it seems to limit the amount of practice the would-be Golemancer can have if every time he or she animates a golem, it’s a permanent loss of four or more points of their constitution.
In Rifter #84, we have an entire business devoted to selling or renting golems…but even with 115 magic-using employees, that means there’s a limit to how many they can create without bleeding their workforce dry! And there’s nothing in the spell descriptions about the mage regaining the lost SDC/HP when the golem is destroyed.
So either they’ve found an (unmentioned) way(s) of reducing/eliminating the SDC/HP cost, transferring it to the commissioning (and possibly non-magic-using) party, replacing the lost SDC/HP(or choosing spells and timing that allow them to temporarily gain extra SDC/HP that they can then immediately burn off in golem creation), or they’re constantly cycling in new employees to donate SDC/HP. Otherwise, their business model would be doomed.

So, while I'm not in favor of golems, with all their advantages, being cheap, and they should be treated like buying yourself a tank(that drives itself ad regenerates, something about a Golemancer (or business of them) turning out only a a handful in a life time seems rather limited for the practice. Especially if they're marketing them(I know if I created something that cost me some of my life force and durability, I wouldn't be handing it off to somebody else no matter how you paid me; I'd want that big boy guarding my skin!).

Or is the secret of the dedicated (and missing) Golemancer OCC that they’ve found a way around this limitation? Maybe it was the threat of golemancers being able to, given enough time, create armies of tank-like servants that made them extinct during the wars following the Time of a Thousand Magics? Because anybody with a whiff of strategic sense would go after them like the Eighth Army Air Force after German tank production.

So what gives? Thoughts? Am I missing something in the (con)text here?

[ShadowLogan]

Several ideas (note I am not familiar with the OCC in question, but it is something I've looked at to build an army via regular caster):
1. An oversight in writing the Class
2. There is a spell chain or spell/ritual variant that achieves a similar end effect that does not incur the cost (ex. Elemental Warlocks Air-Earth chain that can create similar beings to Golems and Zombies, or Rifts Fed of Magic has the Automatons).
3. The SDC is regained via skill selection of physical skills (11d6+2d4+10 = 84 possible SDC from skills in PF2E main book w/o considering base class/race, which would allow 14 Golems assuming max die rolls not "army" but certainly a "squad" in the army, and this ignores creatures like dragons that could probably come close to making a "platoon" at the hatchling stage never mind the adult or ancient). I don't think one can select the same skill multiple times which would put a cap. And gaining SDC from level up is pretty rare (it isn't non-existent though), but it could be a feature of this class
4. The SDC cost can be "shared" like the PPE cost when multiple people are involved in the ritual (I don't like this idea per say)
5. There is a way to "shield" one from the SDC cost, either via spell or psychic power or ward or "artifact" that general practioners do not know about. These options could be commonly available but this application is unknown to other branches of magic (ex. Wizards have limited knowledge of Wards and Circles in PF setting, something similar here).

[drewkitty ~..~]

Because it would be like an Alchemist or Rune Mage, they would be a NPC class because they really just make stuff, and not an adventuring class.

Thou, there are examples of what could be their work in the PF2 core book, Guardian stones.

[taalismn]

Because it would be like an Alchemist or Rune Mage, they would be a NPC class because they really just make stuff, and not an adventuring class.

Thou, there are examples of what could be their work in the PF2 core book, Guardian stones.

Ah yes, the teasingly powerful Alchemist, or why we don't have more(any) PC potion masters wandering around the Palladiumverse.

[Shark_Force]

Ah yes, the teasingly powerful Alchemist, or why we don't have more(any) PC potion masters wandering around the Palladiumverse.

actually, I would argue that the druids and the herbologist out of rifts england could reasonably be described as potion masters

but yes, it does seem odd that a process which drains the very life force out of you would be so casually up for sale. maybe they're all multiclassed african witches?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Ah yes, the teasingly powerful Alchemist, or why we don't have more(any) PC potion masters wandering around the Palladiumverse.

actually, I would argue that the druids and the herbologist out of rifts england could reasonably be described as potion masters

but yes, it does seem odd that a process which drains the very life force out of you would be so casually up for sale. maybe they're all multiclassed african witches?

But PF does not have the list of magical herbs and plants that of in the RE WB. Yes, some of the lists can be used, but because they are different worlds, the lists would not be the exactly the same. And that some of the magic plants would need to be grown in high magic areas...which the PF world does not have.

[Library Ogre]

I would say that Golemancers likely know a method (a spell or a ritual) that allows them to transfer the cost to another being. It costs a lot more PPE, but it lets you keep in business, even if Bessy eventually dies of your magic.

[Rogerd]

The sticking point for me is the permanent loss of 6 SDC (or 4 Hot Points for Earth Warlocks)for activating the Heart. In Rifter #84, we have an entire business devoted to selling or renting golems…but even with 115 magic-using employees, that means there’s a limit to how many they can create without bleeding their workforce dry!

Or more than likely somebody thought it would be kewl, but never stopped to think about the actual implications in this class. I would just be inclined to ignore the permanent cost, and make it temporary as the person that donated the energy gradually get it back over the next week or two.

Because ultimately that makes anyone that takes that class a friggin' serial killer, and therefore more likely to warrant being skewered by the heroes, not left to continue their grisly business.

Players are supposed to be fantasy heroes after all!

[taalismn]

I would say that Golemancers likely know a method (a spell or a ritual) that allows them to transfer the cost to another being. It costs a lot more PPE, but it lets you keep in business, even if Bessy eventually dies of your magic.

THat's what I was thinking....
Now Earth Elementalists might be able to get around the cost by infusing the golem with part of an Earth Elemental...an animal-level essence fragment or less. However that would require some negotiation, and there might be the possibility tat a true/full Earth Elemental encountering. gplem might just smash it to free the entrapped essence.

[Shark_Force]

I mean, *technically* earth warlocks can cheat by just transferring themselves into a new body every time their current one is about to die from giving up too much life force.

though I imagine many GMs wouldn't be terribly pleased with a PC trying that stunt...

[Killer Cyborg]

Not every spell is suited to be a career?

[Killer Cyborg]

I mean, *technically* earth warlocks can cheat by just transferring themselves into a new body every time their current one is about to die from giving up too much life force.

though I imagine many GMs wouldn't be terribly pleased with a PC trying that stunt...

I'd be pretty pleased with it.
Nice loophole!

[Prysus]

I mean, *technically* earth warlocks can cheat by just transferring themselves into a new body every time their current one is about to die from giving up too much life force.

though I imagine many GMs wouldn't be terribly pleased with a PC trying that stunt...

I'd be pretty pleased with it.
Nice loophole!

Greetings and Salutations. I don't think I'd object per se to the concept, but not sure it would work well either. The question for me would be if the character can still cast magic after the transference.

Considering a transfer into a golem (and not an object), the new body is treated like a robot (this is actually in the text). So if an Earth Warlock had a robot body through a transferred intelligence (not the magic spell), would they still be able to cast magic? I believe the canon answer would be no (though I could be mistaken).

Since this is done through magic, maybe this would be an exception. But I feel it's unclear, and at least worth considering and not just taking one result as an automatic conclusion. Farewell and safe journeys.

[ShadowLogan]

Cannonically in Rifts there is at least 1x NPC that qualifies here: Denwyn Ironheart (Sot#6 pg103-5, technically not a Warlock but a Ley Line Walker) is in an Iron Golem body and it is established he can cast spells (and learn new ones), though due to the metallic nature of the Golem suffers penalties (presumably a Stone Golem wouldn't have this issue? though it might not be compatible with what ever method was used for the transfer).

Robot RCC in Rifts SB1o (pg95) for Transferred Intelligence (AI type) allows for limited psychic powers (no mention of spell casting, but there are several examples of TW 'borgs so it isn't a stretch). Megaversally would Rune Weapons could as a transferred intelligence (which can cast magic/psychic).

[Shark_Force]

I mean, there is no particular reason the warlock cannot choose to inhabit an "animal of clay creation" (presumably referring to the "sculpt and create animals" spell) which is currently made of flesh, or is subsequently turned into flesh after their mind is transferred in.

that said "absolutely cannot cast spells under any circumstances" seems like it would be a big enough deal when discussing a spell that can *only* be cast by a fairly advanced spellcaster that you'd expect them to make a specific mention of that fact (but then again, this *is* palladium)

[taalismn]

Researching this has made me realize just how useful a TW device using Earth Elemental Petrification magic can be, especially sine it makes the target MDC stone. And since Rifts RUE gives suggestions for the genstones that can used for EE magic....
Terminal illness? Stine'em until you develop a cure.
Lifeboat situation? NO finicky stasis systems...strike a pose and freeze!Trapped disaster victim? AS long as they're not about to be cleaved in half or drop into lava, stone 'em, and they'll keep until you can figure outa. way to safely extract them.
Of course, for all this to work, you need easy to use Stone to Flesh applicators.

[Mack]

Researching this has made me realize just how useful a TW device using Earth Elemental Petrification magic can be, especially sine it makes the target MDC stone. And since Rifts RUE gives suggestions for the genstones that can used for EE magic....
Terminal illness? Stine'em until you develop a cure.
Lifeboat situation? NO finicky stasis systems...strike a pose and freeze!Trapped disaster victim? AS long as they're not about to be cleaved in half or drop into lava, stone 'em, and they'll keep until you can figure outa. way to safely extract them.
Of course, for all this to work, you need easy to use Stone to Flesh applicators.

Reminds me of an NPC concept I toyed with... an Earth Warlock who was part of Lazlo's Xiticix research team. He would lure individual Xiticix, petrify them, then have them transport them back to Lazlo where they could be safely returned to flesh and studied.

[taalismn]

Yah, and like an art student studying a sculpture like Dying Gaul, a med team could study a patient's injuries...maybe even do subsurface scans...and have the appropriate medical gear and supplies ready to go when the patient is un-stoned. Less guesswork of messy exploratory work.

[Axelmania]

The sticking point for me is the permanent loss of 6 SDC

It's not a problem if you reject the assumption that only one Familiar Link is possible.

I would say that Golemancers likely know a method (a spell or a ritual) that allows them to transfer the cost to another being.

when you cast via a ritual, others can lend PPE, so why not share the SDC cost as well?

earth warlocks can cheat by just transferring themselves into a new body every time their current one is about to die from giving up too much life force

Hm...

what about a Mystic with Mentally Possess Others?

Briefly inhabit some poor shmuck, perform ritual in that body, sacrifice their SDC permanently, bounce back to your body which is fine?

[ShadowLogan]

RE: Golemancers and SDC cost
"Create Clown Golem" Spell (Rifter 9.5 pg91-2) is a variation of the Golem Ritual in spell form. While I am not sure what (if anything) is official in R9.5, this is a SPELL FORM of a Golem ritual that does not list an SDC cost (though unlike the ritual version it has a duration). Rifter 29 (pg38) offers up the "Armor Golem" as an OPTIONAL material (so take it with a grain of salt), again it is a SPELL Form of a Golem that does not list an SDC cost and has the trade off of limited duration. Off hand I do not know of any additional Golem variants in print aside from Federation of Magic (Rifts WB16), and those do not incur an SDC cost either (there is of course the Astral Golem, but that is psychic in nature and not magic).

I bring this up because in Rifts Conversion Book 1revised, while reviewing the Scarecrow monster (pg173-5) the background text on the creature states "These supernatural beings were created by an insane Diabolist/Alchemist on the Palladium World before the madman was slain and the means to their creation (or summoning?) was forever lost. Still, he had successfully created a small army of Scarecrows" (pg173). Additional text gives the impression these could be (or intended to be) a type of Golem, but it got me thinking...

What if the Golemancer's Golem is not the result of the Invocation Ritual, but an energized ward phrase SIMILAR to this Diabolist/Alchemist used to create an army (RCB1r indicates hundreds may exist)? Alternatively since the guy might have been an Alchemist he would have additional levels in Invocation and Circle magic, so a lost and secret/unknown example of Circle Magic might also explain it. Working out what the ward phrase of a Diabolist would need to look like I don't know, but Circle Magic does have the ability to raise an army of animated dead, allowing for some precedent in this branch.

Then again the Golemancer's might know the Ritual version in Spell form that given Rifters might mean they are temporary and do not incur SDC, but then add in a touch of Diabolist's permeance ward and you get can now mass produce golems without an SDC cost.

[Library Ogre]

Idea: Create a Golem whose sole power is to cast Create Golem. Then, you don't have to invest anything but the ability to recreate that one golem every time that golem stops working.

This plan is perfect.

[ShadowLogan]

You might be on to some there Mark, but there is a problem the base Ritual requires blood from the caster and the one to take the SDC cost ("...a single drop of his blood on the behemoth's forehead to bring it to life. The process permanently drains the mage of six S.D.C. points"-PF2E pg214). That did make me think of the Strawman NPC in PF:LotD2 (pg184-7) where a scarecrow has created 4 Iron Golems but has not paid any SDC cost (6*4=24 cost, NPC has 300, max roll, and no known physical skills, paying via HP doesn't allow for all 4 either unless it is much higher level than stated Or is not using RCB1r stats). How could a Scarecrow create Iron Golems without providing his own blood, his creature description doesn't suggest it has blood (though I suppose something else could substitute). An Iron or Stone Golem runs into the same issue, it can't provide "blood" and the description seems to imply the mage has to cut him/herself to provide the blood.

This might in fact indicate there is another way to create a Golem that does not involve an SDC cost given the Strawman has no blood AFAIK. Granted NPCs in Palladium do not always follow the rules PCs would have to.

[taalismn]

Mark, you might wanna take it a bit further...what would the Living Spell equivalent pf Create Golem be? A golem themselves? Or one that would just burn themselves out in the process of creating golems?

[The Beast]

The only thing I can think of is that the SDC/HP cost is paid by the person who will be the master of the golem. That would at the least spare the golemancer their life force for their own personal creations. That still leaves the problem of their being golems for rent, but that could be chalked up to a Rifter author who didn't do their research before writing their article.

[Astral Pantheon]

Okay, maybe I’m dumb, even after writing up several new kinds of Golem creation spells, but after looking at Rifters #25 and #84, I gotta ask; how do Golemancers stay in business?
The sticking point for me is the permanent loss of 6 SDC (or 4 Hot Points for Earth Warlocks)for activating the Heart….Now, I realize it’s a means of keeping Golemancer PCs from building an army of pain-free, regenerating, magic robots and taking over the world, but as a profession, it seems to limit the amount of practice the would-be Golemancer can have if every time he or she animates a golem, it’s a permanent loss of four or more points of their constitution.
In Rifter #84, we have an entire business devoted to selling or renting golems…but even with 115 magic-using employees, that means there’s a limit to how many they can create without bleeding their workforce dry! And there’s nothing in the spell descriptions about the mage regaining the lost SDC/HP when the golem is destroyed.
So either they’ve found an (unmentioned) way(s) of reducing/eliminating the SDC/HP cost, transferring it to the commissioning (and possibly non-magic-using) party, replacing the lost SDC/HP(or choosing spells and timing that allow them to temporarily gain extra SDC/HP that they can then immediately burn off in golem creation), or they’re constantly cycling in new employees to donate SDC/HP. Otherwise, their business model would be doomed.

So, while I'm not in favor of golems, with all their advantages, being cheap, and they should be treated like buying yourself a tank(that drives itself ad regenerates, something about a Golemancer (or business of them) turning out only a a handful in a life time seems rather limited for the practice. Especially if they're marketing them(I know if I created something that cost me some of my life force and durability, I wouldn't be handing it off to somebody else no matter how you paid me; I'd want that big boy guarding my skin!).

Or is the secret of the dedicated (and missing) Golemancer OCC that they’ve found a way around this limitation? Maybe it was the threat of golemancers being able to, given enough time, create armies of tank-like servants that made them extinct during the wars following the Time of a Thousand Magics? Because anybody with a whiff of strategic sense would go after them like the Eighth Army Air Force after German tank production.

So what gives? Thoughts? Am I missing something in the (con)text here?

Depends, can the company have access to Splugorth's Bio-wizardry. Or something similar.
Atlantis [WB2] page 107 to 108
Additional S.D.C. Cost: 2000 credits per each point up to 300.
(zero to 300) costs 600K credits
Can be done 6 times before worry [Beyond 6 : transmutation and possible death]

So, 300 divided by 6 is 50 golems. 600K for 50 Golems not too bad.
If you did it 5 times per person. 3million credits for 250 golems
250 times 100 magic users[easier for math] equals 25,000 Golems (300 million credits).

Of course, if the company just made techno-wizard device that took others S.D.C. to make the Golems but keep control of said Golems...that would be much better.

[ShadowLogan]

Here is are a few wild ideas.

What if the Golemancer's also acquire Familiars (via Familiar Link Invocation). The Familiar option would grant additional HP, which could be spent in place of SDC I would think. If a Familiar dies of natural causes (read not killed, this is getting into rules lawyer territory in terms of exploiting technicalities I think), then the mage would not suffer the permanent HP loss and waiting period (had it been killed). If a familiar is chosen that has a short life span, this might allow a Mage/Golemancer to produce an army over time. Then again it might be possible to have more than 1x Familiar?

A second idea I had was what if the Golemancer's have made a Pact or the equivalent of a Pact with a Super Natural Entity that grants them SDC (that can only be spent on Golem creation). One option for the Gift of Power for a Witch (PF2E) is 200 SDC (33 Golems).

[Borast]

Okay, maybe I’m dumb,

You're mute?

...even after writing up several new kinds of Golem creation spells, but after looking at Rifters #25 and #84, I gotta ask; how do Golemancers stay in business?
The sticking point for me is the permanent loss of 6 SDC (or 4 Hot Points for Earth Warlocks)for activating the Heart….Now, I realize it’s a means of keeping Golemancer PCs from building an army of pain-free, regenerating, magic robots and taking over the world, but as a profession, it seems to limit the amount of practice the would-be Golemancer can have if every time he or she animates a golem, it’s a permanent loss of four or more points of their constitution.
So what gives? Thoughts? Am I missing something in the (con)text here?

Not having done any real reading on the subject ... maybe if they deactivate the golem's heart they regain the HP/SDC?
...maybe if they can create a temporary heart? One that triggers only under certain circumstances, then self destructs when it's time is up?

[Axelmania]

Strawman NPC in PF:LotD2 (pg184-7) where a scarecrow has created 4 Iron Golems but has not paid any SDC cost
(6*4=24 cost, NPC has 300, max roll, and no known physical skills,

Ah, but NPCs might always have skills we don't know about, since it's usually phrased "skills of note" though I haven't checked if that's case here

How could a Scarecrow create Iron Golems without providing his own blood,
his creature description doesn't suggest it has blood
(though I suppose something else could substitute)

This might in fact indicate there is another way to create a Golem that does not involve an SDC cost given the Strawman has no blood AFAIK.

One thing I think about first is how Life Source functions in a situation where you can draw on other people's PPE to cast spells.

Is that just for paying the 2 PPE it costs to start it?

Or: should it also allow them to spend SDC and HP too since those are also costs?

If others were able to pay SDC/HP costs to generate PPE from Life Source then it wouldn't be far beyond that to also let them pay the SDC costs associated with a golem

In that case though since it was a "shared spell" I kinda like the idea that all spells with PPE paid from multiple people count all PPE contributors as the caster, kind of like with an Astral Realm.

IE more than one person could command a skeleton/golem

Like an Astral Mage, if a Scarecrow doesn't like that he can always just murder the co-creator later to get sole control.

If a Familiar dies of natural causes (read not killed, this is getting into rules lawyer territory in terms of exploiting technicalities I think), then the mage would not suffer the permanent HP loss and waiting period (had it been killed).
If a familiar is chosen that has a short life span, this might allow a Mage/Golemancer to produce an army over time.

I think that's possible under the old rules but HOM48 gives free lifespan extension to familiars so I don't even think it's possible for them to die of natural causes before their wizard.

It's especially odd since the very next page (49 of Heart of Magic) has rules taken from Nightbane WB3: Through the Glass Darkly on sacrificing PPE to give them abilities, EXCEPT for the one where you spend PPE to extend your familiar's lifespan, which is now free and mandatory it seems.

Then again it might be possible to have more than 1x Familiar?

Odin wants to wink twice simultaneously at this.

Even if there's no new rule introduced prohibiting it, this is something which now comes with more risks than it used to.

HOM48 elaborates on the rule that you take whatever damage your familiar takes.

pg 128 of Rifts Book of Magic includes that too... "if the familiar is hurt or attacked, its master also takes the same damage even if miles apart."

this is also in RMB 182 so it's nothing new as I first thought, just something I didn't notice or forgot I noticed...

This line is absent on RMB87/RUE123 for the Shifter's OCC ability so I guess that must be one of the major advantages to playing a Shifter: a Familiar who can be hurt without it hurting you.

Well, DAMAGING you anyway, "feels the pain as if it was his own" still applies. So if you are some 10 HP 10 SDC shifter and your 20 HP 40 SDC tiger familiar (you had it since it was a kitten) gets his for 40 damage, it's going to send you into spasms but you won't be knocked into a coma or die from it like a mage who used the inferior 9th level spell would be.

There's probably some kind of reasonable cut off though, like damage that takes the familiar below negative PE no longer transfers. Otherwise you could literally beat a dead horse to kill a wizard who made it a familiar since it was a fillie, even if the wizard had 600 HP.

[MayBeThePoet]

Mystic China.
Zenjoriki (Xian Chi)
Discorporate (Kai Tian)

[eliakon]

maybe a form of ritual magic in which you can have people donate HP/SDC and not just PPE.
This would allow the "purchaser" to be linked to the golem they buy while 'paying the tab' for its creation.

Mostly though I think its an example of "this is a neat idea we had but its the Rifter so we don't have to make it make sense, or even work within the rules as written."

[Library Ogre]

As a thought: What if you could use Ley Lines and Nexuses to supply the "permanent" PPE/HP/SDC? They're wellsprings of phenomenal power, after all.

[ShadowLogan]

I think it might just be easier to assume either:
A. Just treat it as a Trade Secret of the OCC in how they avoid the issue of SDC
B. They utilize a more advanced form of the Golem Ritual that avoids the issue of SDC

Both have precedents. You can't make a Cyclops divulge the secrets of making Lightning weapons (RCB1r). The Federation of Magic (WB16) has their Golem cousins the Automotauns.

EDIT: There are also additional Golem-cousins I remembered: Rifts Japan's Kami Statues (WB8/BoM) and PF's Alchemists Gaurdian Statues (PF2E mainbook)

[eliakon]

As a thought: What if you could use Ley Lines and Nexuses to supply the "permanent" PPE/HP/SDC? They're wellsprings of phenomenal power, after all.

RAW you can't do that.
The Ley Lines are not the caster and can't consent to pay the price even if they were.
Now sure, if a GM wants to make it trivially easy to make huge quantities of Golems and other pernament magic effects...
but I would suggest that if you do permanently burn off parts of a ley line that it be permanently burned off aka the line will get weaker and weaker, ley line storms will brew around the psychic wound...supernatural immune systems may deploy to deal with the cancer eating reality...

[taalismn]

but I would suggest that if you do permanently burn off parts of a ley line that it be permanently burned off aka the line will get weaker and weaker, ley line storms will brew around the psychic wound...supernatural immune systems may deploy to deal with the cancer eating reality...

...and adventurers get hired to acquire an artifact capable or repairing/containing the damage and/or escorting the mage or mages who can use it into the storm zone to heal the megacosmic breach-wound.

[Library Ogre]

As a thought: What if you could use Ley Lines and Nexuses to supply the "permanent" PPE/HP/SDC? They're wellsprings of phenomenal power, after all.

RAW you can't do that.
The Ley Lines are not the caster and can't consent to pay the price even if they were.
Now sure, if a GM wants to make it trivially easy to make huge quantities of Golems and other pernament magic effects...
but I would suggest that if you do permanently burn off parts of a ley line that it be permanently burned off aka the line will get weaker and weaker, ley line storms will brew around the psychic wound...supernatural immune systems may deploy to deal with the cancer eating reality...

I like the idea of it increasing the ley line storms and random rifts. An instability that's eventually smoothed out by the torrent of psychic energy, but which causes dangerous short-term turbulence.

I know it's not RAW. But it's cool.

[Curbludgeon]

I'm tickled by the notion of the "Nazca" civilization in pre-Rifts Earth having some facility in leveraging ley line surges towards PPE burn effects. Such could prove an adjunct to the creation rituals behind the "Rune" Warriors in SA2, and help justify some of the use of permanent Pattern Walls in both prehistory and PA. To whatever degree pyramids and line magic mitigate both line storms and permanent drain to a given line could be a function of settlement size, number of participants, potential sacrifice, etc.