Modern technologies that we don't see in robotech

[Zer0 Kay]

But according to official sources for Robotech, that is a solid-ammo cannon... not a laser.

(You may facepalm when ready, because we both know what the dialog says and I'm already doing it.)

Well nothing in the dialogue really establishes it as a solid projectile cannon (even the curving trajectory IS technically possible with a laser, both technologically and natrually), and the dialogue should really take precedent here. I almost have to wonder how much "series" checking actually happens, even though that is supposed to be at the top of the chain.

Also the RT.com Infopedia does mention a beam cannon upgrade "A later variant developed just in time for the Second Robotech War was the VHT-1A1, which differed from the earlier model in that it replaced the heavy cannon with a large beam cannon. ", which a laser would qualify as (per dialogue, so Dana was using a -1A1). I know it doesn't exactly mesh with the RPG (1E or 2E), but in terms of official.

The utility of optical cameras only works in long-term observation and analysis... LIDAR offers virtually instant results over distances of a light-second or so, which is all the range they actually NEED for their early warning system against shadow stealthed fighters.

(Mind you, it occurred to me that there's another way they should have been able to detect them... they have gravimetric sensors, so why can't they see the abnormalities in local gravitation caused by shadow fields?)

Star Trackers used for navigation aren't going to be that long term though in exposure times. One I read the specs on form the company website listed >90% accuracy in 60sec. Another can acquire full field acquisition in 5sec (0.4sec reduced field of view) max time. And the Shuttle used star trackers during "rendezvous or proximity operations with a target satellite" (quote per NASA website), which really cuts into the argument that camera systems are by default slow. A LIDAR system will still need to process the data, just like a camera system.

As for gravity based sensing, I don't think that would work. Recall that the N-S warheads use their shadow devices to "cloak" the strong gravitational forces of the matter w/n the warhead (PttSC), and IIRC didn't the rescue mission to the SDF-3 use the Shadow Device at the end point of its journey near the blackhole? Shadow Fields might show up in other EM band images as "blank spots" in the background though (unless they can refract background emissions around them w/o any tell tale signs).

Star Tracker Links:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/tec ... ar-tracker
http://www.ballaerospace.com/page.jsp?page=104 (quicklinks, these open PDF files)

LIDAR would only work slightly better at detecting an F-117 for the same reason as radar. Part of the stealth is the material, which the LIDAR would probably not be affected by but the angled surfaces would cause the laser beam do deflect just like a radio beam.

No it should be better at detection that radar. The angled surfaces and material are calibrated for specific frequency ranges, which LIDAR can operate away from. Plus LIDAR can be used in other ways to detect stealth aircraft.

No, the RAM is dependant on frequency the angles are not. An angled surface redirects the brunt of and beam radiated toward it. I'm sure the LiDAR can be used the same way a cell net has been theorized to work and the way a series of TPS-75s would.

[ShadowLogan]

Even the angles are dependent on frequencies. If angles are that effective against LIDAR, we wouldn't have the resolution in imaging we have. Not to mention we would have trouble seeing the thing with our own eyes (or a regular optical camera). While angles can play a role, materials also play a role. The F-117's shape and materials are designed to defeat Radar and passive IR sensors, not optical laser detection.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, the angles are just dependent on physics and geometry. otherwise the same stuff that effects radar wouldn't have effected sonar.. but they do. (in fact, it was the failure of a sonar based rangefinder on a camera when taking pictures of the F-117 that gave lockheed the idea of developing ocean vessels with their stealth tech.. though their early designs for a sonar invisible submarine were not viable due to the limits of the faceting based stealth at the time. but that is what got them working on the sea shadow, which was invisible to both radar from above and sonar from below.)

the laser light from lidar would also be deflected largely away from the sender, making the vehicle less likely to be detected.

[Seto Kaiba]

the laser light from lidar would also be deflected largely away from the sender, making the vehicle less likely to be detected.

Part of it, yes... but one of the beautiful things about using LIDAR for a purpose like this is that the actual detection reflectivity threshold is quite low. Much lower than an optical camera.

[eliakon]

the laser light from lidar would also be deflected largely away from the sender, making the vehicle less likely to be detected.

Part of it, yes... but one of the beautiful things about using LIDAR for a purpose like this is that the actual detection reflectivity threshold is quite low. Much lower than an optical camera.

But the lidar needs the specific light that is reflected back from the beam it sends out. A camera can use any light source. Thus the camera may (or may not, I do not know the exact thresholds involved here) need more total light, the lidar may be less efficient if its getting less of the specific light.

[Jefffar]

And electro-optical systems can detect surprisingly low levels of light.

[ShadowLogan]

actually, the angles are just dependent on physics and geometry. otherwise the same stuff that effects radar wouldn't have effected sonar.. but they do. (in fact, it was the failure of a sonar based rangefinder on a camera when taking pictures of the F-117 that gave lockheed the idea of developing ocean vessels with their stealth tech.. though their early designs for a sonar invisible submarine were not viable due to the limits of the faceting based stealth at the time. but that is what got them working on the sea shadow, which was invisible to both radar from above and sonar from below.)

the laser light from lidar would also be deflected largely away from the sender, making the vehicle less likely to be detected.

The Angles are dependent on the materials of the reflecting surface though, consider what it takes to make fiber-optic cable to redirect a laser signal. It isn't just the angle but also the material that makes it possible, so the material will matter.

How close though are laser frequencies/wavelengths to radar and sonar frequencies/wavelengths though. I've heard in Desert Storm/Shield about dead bats in F-117 hangars, but that was because their sonar was said to be close to radar frequency/wavelength to which the F-117 is built to reflect the signal away instead of return. So the F-117 shape is optimized for stealth at certain wavelength/frequency range, and is not universal for all emissions.

[SRoss]

Any variant of the Corner Shot.

[Zer0 Kay]

actually, the angles are just dependent on physics and geometry. otherwise the same stuff that effects radar wouldn't have effected sonar.. but they do. (in fact, it was the failure of a sonar based rangefinder on a camera when taking pictures of the F-117 that gave lockheed the idea of developing ocean vessels with their stealth tech.. though their early designs for a sonar invisible submarine were not viable due to the limits of the faceting based stealth at the time. but that is what got them working on the sea shadow, which was invisible to both radar from above and sonar from below.)

the laser light from lidar would also be deflected largely away from the sender, making the vehicle less likely to be detected.

The Angles are dependent on the materials of the reflecting surface though, consider what it takes to make fiber-optic cable to redirect a laser signal. It isn't just the angle but also the material that makes it possible, so the material will matter.

How close though are laser frequencies/wavelengths to radar and sonar frequencies/wavelengths though. I've heard in Desert Storm/Shield about dead bats in F-117 hangars, but that was because their sonar was said to be close to radar frequency/wavelength to which the F-117 is built to reflect the signal away instead of return. So the F-117 shape is optimized for stealth at certain wavelength/frequency range, and is not universal for all emissions.

Completely different and a straight aluminum tube with an el ow at the end with a flat piece of metal angled at 45 degrees will redirect all forms of EM Radio, high intensity colored light. They will all have a portion strongly detectable out the elbow. Finer optics are made specifically to CONDUCT light, single mode doesn't just bounce ot around inside, until it hits the other end, even multi mode is very specific and regardless of the angle you have the cable doesn't change the light conducted inside... Unless the cable snaps. If other wavelengths can't enter the medium than it isn't anywhere near a fair comparison to an open air surface. But yes a mirrored surface will redirect a greater amount of light, but light even on a flat black surface will reflect

Argh an angled surface reflects all EM it is only the RAM that is frequency dependant.

Bat Ecolocation 40-100KHz some say up to 120KHz
Radio Spectrum 3Hz-3,000 GHz
IR 430THz
Visible light spectrum Between 430-790 THz
UV 790 THz
RADAR 3MHz-110GHz
Majority of military use radar are S or X band
S 2-4GHz I worked on a AN/GPN-20 at 2.1 GHz. I forget what it's second frequency was and a WSR88D at 1.3GHz
X 8-12GHz used for most guidance systems

Bats 100,000 Hz
ASR. 2,100,000 Hz
IR 430,000,000,000 Hz

A bat's echo location is just as likely to reflect as a beam of light. Besides reflecting sound waves always happen especially in caves only the absorbtion of the soundwave would confuse a bat enough to make them run into a parked F-117. Nevermind that if that was the cause they'd be on or around the plane not scattered through the hanger, that sounds more like microwave scattering. If that was happening there were likely a lot of bugs that gathered too and that is what attracted the bats. There are tons of dead bugs around an WSD88. They're attracted by the frequency and then get fried due to close proximity and then there are occasionally dead birds, attracted by lunch but also get cooked. Lesson? Don't live near a radar, I'm talking feet though so REALY near.

[Zer0 Kay]

Even the angles are dependent on frequencies. If angles are that effective against LIDAR, we wouldn't have the resolution in imaging we have. Not to mention we would have trouble seeing the thing with our own eyes (or a regular optical camera). While angles can play a role, materials also play a role. The F-117's shape and materials are designed to defeat Radar and passive IR sensors, not optical laser detection.

Light and laser COMPLETELY different. Light is emmited in all directions the pbotons tending to scatter a laser is cohesive so most of the reflected light would be redirected. Granted the minute amount that does scatter back in the direction of the sensor may be enough for the sensor. While in the case of radar it requires quite a bit of return in order to classify it as a target. Could a radar operate of much lower returns? Yes, but then you get weapons officers, trolls and tower flowers identifying birds as aircraft or even raindrops if we go smaller. So they don't. The faceting on the 117 reduces the return as does the RAM it usually doesn't completely eliminate it, but the return is so low that the computer eliminates it as too small. Same reason the mother ship in ID4 didn't show it was to large and was eliminated by computers as weather.

[Zer0 Kay]

And electro-optical systems can detect surprisingly low levels of light.

Right, but is a LiDAR, like a RADAR set to ignore returns that are of "bird" size? Or does the LiDAR operator just have to deal with all the noise that is DEFINATELY not aircraft?

[Jefffar]

I am sure that the computers processing the results from RADAR, LiDAR and Electro-Optic Scanning systems all have ways to declutter the image.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am sure that the computers processing the results from RADAR, LiDAR and Electro-Optic Scanning systems all have ways to declutter the image.

Certainly... the important difference being that the sensitivity range of a LIDAR system is much, MUCH, MUCH wider than a conventional RADAR or electro-optic camera. That's one of the things that's given LIDAR systems such utility for space exploration... you can choose what size of objects you want the sensor to actively detect, and just by tuning the threshold for returning photons you can easily single out most any size object you'd like.

This, particularly for its scientific utility, is one of the reasons why LIDAR systems SHOULD have been an incredibly basic fixture of EVERY ship from day one. They're fantastic for not just range-finding and for the fiddly business of proximity maneuvers, they can also be employed for planetary survey work to study the atmospheric composition and surface topography of a planet or other stellar body... the former being one among many things a LIDAR can do that a camera cannot.

(It also has considerable utility, above and beyond what's available from cameras, in the realm of unmanned fighter navigation and collision avoidance.)

[eliakon]

I am sure that the computers processing the results from RADAR, LiDAR and Electro-Optic Scanning systems all have ways to declutter the image.

Certainly... the important difference being that the sensitivity range of a LIDAR system is much, MUCH, MUCH wider than a conventional RADAR or electro-optic camera. That's one of the things that's given LIDAR systems such utility for space exploration... you can choose what size of objects you want the sensor to actively detect, and just by tuning the threshold for returning photons you can easily single out most any size object you'd like.

Ummmmm this sounds a lot like techno-babble.
You don't set a 'threshold for photons' to 'single out size'
You analyze the strength of the returns to get size.
You do realize that lidar uses 'electro-optical cameras' to detect the returning light? So ALL lidar systems already, by default, have cameras built in?
But that the lidar only works on light that is reflected back where as regular camera imaging can use ambient light?
So really lidar would simply be an add on to a camera unit that would be of use only for instances when they need things like distancing and parallax....and don't mind an active sensor. In which case why not use the radar systems?

This, particularly for its scientific utility, is one of the reasons why LIDAR systems SHOULD have been an incredibly basic fixture of EVERY ship from day one. They're fantastic for not just range-finding and for the fiddly business of proximity maneuvers, they can also be employed for planetary survey work to study the atmospheric composition and surface topography of a planet or other stellar body... the former being one among many things a LIDAR can do that a camera cannot.

(It also has considerable utility, above and beyond what's available from cameras, in the realm of unmanned fighter navigation and collision avoidance.)

Lidar may be one of the many sensor systems on a full space ship that has a use for scientific sensors and might actually need to map a planet. But for a mecha? There is no advantage to the lidar over radar here. So I am not seeing why a mecha would want to add a third sensor (they already have cameras and radar, now we want to pack in lidar too?)

[Seto Kaiba]

You don't set a 'threshold for photons' to 'single out size'

Yeah... you do. That's what the strength of the return IS... the percentage of photons reflected from the target surface. You're looking for a particular frequency of light coming back, so ambient lighting isn't a significant concern... and because you're looking for a very particular frequency, you can freely tune the system to determine what constitutes a solid return based on the amount of reflected light received in the target frequency.

These systems can be VERY sensitive, able to register a solid return with a vanishingly small amount of reflected light in the proper frequency.

You do realize that lidar uses 'electro-optical cameras' to detect the returning light? So ALL lidar systems already, by default, have cameras built in?

*sigh* Not quite, no.

They use photodiodes or photomultipliers... much simpler hardware. You CAN build one with a full-blown CMOS or CCD photovoltaic imaging, but you don't actually NEED it for detection purposes.

But for a mecha? There is no advantage to the lidar over radar here. So I am not seeing why a mecha would want to add a third sensor (they already have cameras and radar, now we want to pack in lidar too?)

Would now be a bad time to point out that LIDAR systems are used for collision avoidance in unmanned vehicles?

[ShadowLogan]

But for a mecha? There is no advantage to the lidar over radar here. So I am not seeing why a mecha would want to add a third sensor (they already have cameras and radar, now we want to pack in lidar too?)

LIDAR does have advantages over radar:
-resolution of radar images can be much clearer
-active jamming should be much more difficult as you need to be far more precise
-if the system is multi-mode (like an AESA radar can w/extra hardware) you could use it for data transmission of much higher data volume than radio, obviously this is highly directional
-range vs power loss compared to a radio based system (like radar)

That doesn't mean LIDAR doesn't have disadvantages, or even potential disdvantages. But it does offer advantages.

Light and laser COMPLETELY different. Light is emmited in all directions the pbotons tending to scatter a laser is cohesive so most of the reflected light would be redirected. Granted the minute amount that does scatter back in the direction of the sensor may be enough for the sensor. While in the case of radar it requires quite a bit of return in order to classify it as a target. Could a radar operate of much lower returns? Yes, but then you get weapons officers, trolls and tower flowers identifying birds as aircraft or even raindrops if we go smaller. So they don't. The faceting on the 117 reduces the return as does the RAM it usually doesn't completely eliminate it, but the return is so low that the computer eliminates it as too small. Same reason the mother ship in ID4 didn't show it was to large and was eliminated by computers as weather.

Yes I know how laser light and regular light differ. I am also aware that the return radar isn't eliminated completely and that is cuts down the detection range (making it more like camouflage than invisibility).

The thing with Stealth Aircraft though is that as you change radar bands (freq/wavelength) you can make them more detectable (higher freq./shorter wavelength), that is a known fact. Current projections for generation of passive Stealth Aircraft in the US inventory (B-2, F-22, and even the F-35 when it enters service) will become detectable without the inclusion of active stealth during the projected life time of the aircraft (IIRC its supposed to be around 2030, but that was made around 10years ago). Optical Laser Frequencies are higher than VHF Radar (which can detect passive stealth aircraft), which means LIDAR would also be able to see a passive stealth design like the F-117.

[Zer0 Kay]

I am sure that the computers processing the results from RADAR, LiDAR and Electro-Optic Scanning systems all have ways to declutter the image.

absolutely, but when the decluttering removes the stealth target because it's return gets it classified as clutter, how does one change that.

[Zer0 Kay]

But for a mecha? There is no advantage to the lidar over radar here. So I am not seeing why a mecha would want to add a third sensor (they already have cameras and radar, now we want to pack in lidar too?)

LIDAR does have advantages over radar:
-resolution of radar images can be much clearer
-active jamming should be much more difficult as you need to be far more precise
-if the system is multi-mode (like an AESA radar can w/extra hardware) you could use it for data transmission of much higher data volume than radio, obviously this is highly directional
-range vs power loss compared to a radio based system (like radar)

That doesn't mean LIDAR doesn't have disadvantages, or even potential disdvantages. But it does offer advantages.

Light and laser COMPLETELY different. Light is emmited in all directions the pbotons tending to scatter a laser is cohesive so most of the reflected light would be redirected. Granted the minute amount that does scatter back in the direction of the sensor may be enough for the sensor. While in the case of radar it requires quite a bit of return in order to classify it as a target. Could a radar operate of much lower returns? Yes, but then you get weapons officers, trolls and tower flowers identifying birds as aircraft or even raindrops if we go smaller. So they don't. The faceting on the 117 reduces the return as does the RAM it usually doesn't completely eliminate it, but the return is so low that the computer eliminates it as too small. Same reason the mother ship in ID4 didn't show it was to large and was eliminated by computers as weather.

Yes I know how laser light and regular light differ. I am also aware that the return radar isn't eliminated completely and that is cuts down the detection range (making it more like camouflage than invisibility).

The thing with Stealth Aircraft though is that as you change radar bands (freq/wavelength) you can make them more detectable (higher freq./shorter wavelength), that is a known fact. Current projections for generation of passive Stealth Aircraft in the US inventory (B-2, F-22, and even the F-35 when it enters service) will become detectable without the inclusion of active stealth during the projected life time of the aircraft (IIRC its supposed to be around 2030, but that was made around 10years ago). Optical Laser Frequencies are higher than VHF Radar (which can detect passive stealth aircraft), which means LIDAR would also be able to see a passive stealth design like the F-117.

If it was invisibility it probably would have been called cloaking, stealth just suggests sneaky not invisible. It is media that tried to suggest invisible rather than low detection rate.

Your assuming too much. If that were so the Rich Middle Eastern nations wouldn't have issues with our stealth aircraft because they could already afford the detection equipment. As much as the EM spectrum stays the same, it also changes a lot. Just because high frequency radio waves can detect stealth. That would be like assuming that because one can look into a flashlight with minimal discomfort that they could look into a waveguide while transmitting. Boiled eyes anyone?

That being said someone needs to shine a flashlight at an F-117 in the dark and see how much light is reflected back.

[ShadowLogan]

Your assuming too much. If that were so the Rich Middle Eastern nations wouldn't have issues with our stealth aircraft because they could already afford the detection equipment. As much as the EM spectrum stays the same, it also changes a lot. Just because high frequency radio waves can detect stealth. That would be like assuming that because one can look into a flashlight with minimal discomfort that they could look into a waveguide while transmitting. Boiled eyes anyone?

That being said someone needs to shine a flashlight at an F-117 in the dark and see how much light is reflected back.

I'm not assuming too much here.

A flashlight on the F-117 would depend on the distance and the strength of the light, a better thing to do would be use a laser range finder as it would settle the whole issue.

[Jefffar]

I am sure that the computers processing the results from RADAR, LiDAR and Electro-. Optic Scanning systems all have ways to declutter the image.

absolutely, but when the decluttering removes the stealth target because it's return gets it classified as clutter, how does one change that.

Improve the computer processing the return to recognize that the average airspeed of an unladen swallow is not 500mph

[Zer0 Kay]

I am sure that the computers processing the results from RADAR, LiDAR and Electro-. Optic Scanning systems all have ways to declutter the image.

absolutely, but when the decluttering removes the stealth target because it's return gets it classified as clutter, how does one change that.

Improve the computer processing the return to recognize that the average airspeed of an unladen swallow is not 500mph

You @$$ give a warning not to drink anything before reading a post like that. Soda hurts out the nose. and no way to get you back for it

... African or European?

[Zer0 Kay]

Your assuming too much. If that were so the Rich Middle Eastern nations wouldn't have issues with our stealth aircraft because they could already afford the detection equipment. As much as the EM spectrum stays the same, it also changes a lot. Just because high frequency radio waves can detect stealth. That would be like assuming that because one can look into a flashlight with minimal discomfort that they could look into a waveguide while transmitting. Boiled eyes anyone?

That being said someone needs to shine a flashlight at an F-117 in the dark and see how much light is reflected back.

I'm not assuming too much here.

A flashlight on the F-117 would depend on the distance and the strength of the light, a better thing to do would be use a laser range finder as it would settle the whole issue.

For the question of a Lidar... Yes, but I'd also want to know the result with non cohesive light, just for s&g.

[Trav13369]

yeah, the tech in Robotech: Macross, after the SDF-1 crashlanded, jumps from modern day, to fusion tech, to gravitic tech, in a DECADE! And since other disciplines also get more advanced ("all boats rise at high tide"), advances in computers, metallurgy, medicine, genetics, nanotech, robotics, cybernetics, etc. would ALL be advanced. The tech in the Macross era of Robotech would be, barring the military classifying it all, much farther along than what is shown in the series. Yes, we see camera- and phone-robots milling about, and holographic effects at stadiums, but there would have to have been massive amounts of possible transhumanism in all these advances. Lang would have found the means to do so, easily. The Robotech Masters has incredible technology in the realm of life sciences, and Zor's battle fortress was the epitome of ALL of Tirol's scientific knowledge. The UEG was holding parts back, or, due to ethical/moral reasons, didn't want to touch anything smacking of transhumanism.

[shinchane101]

It's fascinating how Robotech's vision of the future missed some key technological advancements that define our world today. The absence of the internet and the limited functionality of computers and handheld devices compared to our modern counterparts are indeed striking differences. It goes to show how challenging it can be to predict the trajectory of technology and how rapidly it evolves.

[taalismn]

It's fascinating how Robotech's vision of the future missed some key technological advancements that define our world today. The absence of the internet and the limited functionality of computers and handheld devices compared to our modern counterparts are indeed striking differences. It goes to show how challenging it can be to predict the trajectory of technology and how rapidly it evolves.

To be honest, there was little opportunity to show an internet in the three story arcs...having the characters text each other on the SDF-1? Not really good for character development....and by the time they're back on Earth? Global communications are majorly disrupted.
The Southern Cross? Again, what action takes place in Monument City would have not have been influenced by an interneT(though if you want, imagine Louie spending his off-duty evenings hacking the civilian boards and geeking it up in chatrooms and online RPGs).
And New Generation? Again, global communications are down, unless you want to imagine Lancer coordinating his resistance activities using the few surviving energized landlines/fiber optic network connections.


Now wireless handheld PADDs would be logical for the SDF-1's crew if the series were made today, and the corded handsets we see would either be for secure connections(NSGalactica-style) or to keep people from walking off with the phone. You can imagine in 'Shadow Chronicles' that the spear-carrier NPCs in the background with clipboards are actually carrying smart-pads.

[glitterboy2098]

shinchane101, since you recently joined, i would like to point out that in this forum thread necromancy is generally frowned on, especially for something nearly ten years old.

As far as technologies go in RT, some tech ought to be there because it existed even when the show was being made, it just wasn't as prominent IRL yet. Like drones. Drones have been used for both offensive and recon use since the 60's, and the earliest forms of what would become the predator drone family was being used in the 80's. But they didn't gain prominence IRL until the post-9/11 war on terror. I tend to take the approach that they were developed in RT as well, with the GE 'gnat' drones of the 80's being developed into the MQ-1 Predator during the global war, and the UEDF army continuing to use them.. they just never developed the tech further (into stuff like the MQ-9) because the focus shifted, and aerospace interceptor drones like the Ghost had higher priority than light recon and ground support stuff.


(interestingly, the real world BGM-34 derivative of the Ryan Firebee from the 70's seems to have inspired the testing drones from Macross Plus)

[Sambot]

I don't know why people are saying drones weren't used. There's the QF-3000E Ghost drone fighter in Macross and drone Alpha Fighters in New Generation.

[glitterboy2098]

true. i think part of that is the fact that "drones" has become a shorthand for the light stuff used so much IRL, like the predator, reaper, Bayraktar, etc. not to mention the little hand launched remote controlled planes and quadrotors things.
since we don't really have anything comparable to the Ghost IRL yet (some of the in development stuff like the X-47 comes close) i think people have trouble thinking of units like the Ghost with the term 'drone'.

it doesn't help the the ghost got only a few seconds of screentime and none of that in combat (and iirc, just one dialog mention), and the Alpha Fighter and shadow fighter drones only showed up for one episode each.

[Sambot]

true. i think part of that is the fact that "drones" has become a shorthand for the light stuff used so much IRL, like the predator, reaper, Bayraktar, etc. not to mention the little hand launched remote controlled planes and quadrotors things.
since we don't really have anything comparable to the Ghost IRL yet (some of the in development stuff like the X-47 comes close) i think people have trouble thinking of units like the Ghost with the term 'drone'.

it doesn't help the the ghost got only a few seconds of screentime and none of that in combat (and iirc, just one dialog mention), and the Alpha Fighter and shadow fighter drones only showed up for one episode each.

Not remembering them do to limited screen time makes sense. Thanks.

[ShadowLogan]

true. i think part of that is the fact that "drones" has become a shorthand for the light stuff used so much IRL, like the predator, reaper, Bayraktar, etc. not to mention the little hand launched remote controlled planes and quadrotors things.
since we don't really have anything comparable to the Ghost IRL yet (some of the in development stuff like the X-47 comes close) i think people have trouble thinking of units like the Ghost with the term 'drone'.

it doesn't help the the ghost got only a few seconds of screentime and none of that in combat (and iirc, just one dialog mention), and the Alpha Fighter and shadow fighter drones only showed up for one episode each.

During the TRM-era the ASC/EF might have said "squad" level ROV drone units, but they might not be able to operate if the Masters Jamming was that good requiring AI or expensive/impractical jam-resistant links. The preproduction stuff for TRM (and Sentinels) did include robotic units that could be stand-ins for those ROV units (the EF Pegasus units did have detachable spy unit, and the SDC:SC had robotic birds though how "canon" those are for RT).

And IIRC the Masters might have had something like them in use with their Terminators for security operations (seen during the 15th's initial recon).

The NG-era its hard to say if they had squad level ROV/AI units since the focus in the storyline wasn't a proper military group, though the Invid Inorganics essentially are drones (Cougar, and IIRC the Crann, at least in 1E, could segment as both are heavy into the recon/patrol roles). The EF certainly had large units (Shadow Drone)

Though in terms of what Robotech missed, it might also be worth considering that some stuff might have been leapfrogged. Passive Stealth might have been rendered impotent due to the introduction of alien technology (even w/o alien technology, this is something even current gen. passive stealth designs are predicted to need w/n the next decade IIRC).

[green.nova343]

I would imagine that the reason we don't see the "small" drones that we're used to IRL wasn't just that they weren't in use at the time of the animation, but they'd essentially leaped forward. "Drone" to us just means a remotely-piloted vehicle (some guy sitting in an air-conditioned room with a joystick & a computer monitor), in essence drawing off of the real-world experience with things like the QF-series of drones used for target practice. Robotech/Macross, though, had autonomous drones, with AI programming (beyond anything we currently have) so that the Ghost fighters could operate without remote inputs. If you've been building fully-autonomous, AI-piloted units, you may not consider "going backwards" to something that requires a "man at the stick", even if he's not physically in the cockpit.

As for passive stealth, yeah, I would agree that changing your radar frequencies would most likely defeat the benefits of RAM installed on any aircraft. And even then, the design & materials used on stealth aircraft isn't like Romulan cloaking devices, making them invisible to radar, it just cuts down the amount of signal return you get from them. Eventually, your radar will pick them up. I would imagine that what may have led away from passive stealth would have been advances in signal processing. Alien computer tech would be able to process smaller & smaller signal returns to distinguish a target from "clutter", & could also be programmed to use other factors to discriminate targets. If your radar is detecting a "bird-sized" target that's moving horizontally at 300km/h (fastest bird in horizontal flight is the white-throated needletail, & it can only reach 169km/h), & is flying at 10,000m (most birds stay well below 150m, & even when migrating may only get up to 600-1500m, maybe 6,000m tops for certain ones)...chances are probably good that it'snot a falcon or stork. Throw in the use of different radar frequencies -- maybe even the potential for alien-based tech to use a "dual" radar beam (2 distinct frequencies), especially with LPI-style pulses, & your stealth fighter might as well not have any RAM installed at all.

I noticed in the older parts of the conversation people were really stuck on the lack of LIDAR. I'm not convinced that it would have actually provided much of a benefit over standard radar -- most of the sensors I've been able to get any kind of data for online seem to indicate maximum ranges measured in meters, topping out around 2,000 or so, & designed to be used to "look down" from a height of up to maybe 600-700m. That's great for ground-mapping (especially if you're measuring trees & canopy sizes), but by that range I would imagine the target is visible to the naked eye anyway. I suppose that this could be offset by just using a much more powerful laser...but then the problem becomes whether you can push enough power through the laser emitter to where you get as much range out of it as the radar set without taking up so much room that you can't even carry radar anymore.

As for why they didn't develop it as a counter to shadow technology...well, it took almost 20-30 years from the first development of radar in the 1920s to the forerunners of stealth tech in 1958, & even then it took over 20 more years to get the first "stealth fighter". Not surprising that they couldn't immediately stick lidar sensors on all UEEF mecha to defeat shadow cloaking tech...

[glitterboy2098]

actually the main limitations with LIDAR are the sensitivity of the optical receiver, rather than the strength of the laser. though that is obviously a factor as well.

and techically drones were in se at the time they made the show, just not in the same roles they later did, or in uses that made the news. (the earliest "proto-predator" AMBER drone for example was being used by the CIA at the time, and a decade or so earlier in vietnam there had been jet powered drones adapted from airborne targets used for recon, ECM/EWAR, and even direct strikes into heavily defended locations. they just tended to be footnotes in history at the time.

[Peacebringer]

Once, I ran a game of Cyberpunk 2020 set in Macross-city. It was basically a cyberpunk-game, set in a Robotech-world. We had all the cyberware and gadgets of CP:2020, with a bit of the Robotech, um, tech. It was light game; we only played on session because really, only two-players actually liked Robotech (one other guy and me).

[taalismn]

Once, I ran a game of Cyberpunk 2020 set in Macross-city. It was basically a cyberpunk-game, set in a Robotech-world. We had all the cyberware and gadgets of CP:2020, with a bit of the Robotech, um, tech. It was light game; we only played on session because really, only two-players actually liked Robotech (one other guy and me).

Ewww.....I keep trying tp wrap my head around that...."What if the SDF-1 had come down in the corporate battleground that was the Cyberpunk world?'.
Provided Macross Island wasn't nuked as collateral damage or a end-spoiler of a war for monopoly on the alien tech between Araska and Militech, the Zentraedi would have found themselves buggered by power armors well on the scene before Cyclones, and then toss in cyborgs and wired pilots.....

Then somebody tries hacking the SDF-1's computers...and EVE comes out to play.....

[Peacebringer]

Ewww.....I keep trying tp wrap my head around that...."What if the SDF-1 had come down in the corporate battleground that was the Cyberpunk world?'.
Provided Macross Island wasn't nuked as collateral damage or a end-spoiler of a war for monopoly on the alien tech between Araska and Militech, the Zentraedi would have found themselves buggered by power armors well on the scene before Cyclones, and then toss in cyborgs and wired pilots.....

Then somebody tries hacking the SDF-1's computers...and EVE comes out to play.....

We never got as far as the Zentraedi; once, I said, a year or two later, "We're going to play Robotech", and a few of the players were disinterested, until I said, "With Cyberpunk's Maximum-Metal rules" (Fuzion). Then they were interested, so I ended up making Zentraedi smaller and sometime similar to the guys from the movie Soldier and making the Tactical Battle-Pods as Walkers and ACPAs with auto-cannons and it was pretty fun.

[taalismn]

We never got as far as the Zentraedi; once, I said, a year or two later, "We're going to play Robotech", and a few of the players were disinterested, until I said, "With Cyberpunk's Maximum-Metal rules" (Fuzion). Then they were interested, so I ended up making Zentraedi smaller and sometime similar to the guys from the movie Soldier and making the Tactical Battle-Pods as Walkers and ACPAs with auto-cannons and it was pretty fun.

...And that gets me thinking of yet a further AU where the Tirolians/Robotech Masters arrive and discover that Earth is less awestruck/impressed by them because we'd already independently been producing vat-grown baby soldiers(I believe the original Cyberpunk RPG has a line about the future being a time when 'babies are grown in tubes' when it suggests playing in machinery spaces and basements to get the right feel).
Tirolian Centurions and Terminators versus vat-bred cyberpsychotic ninjas and animal-biomods? Just take my money, man!

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Actually, Louie's 'scanning' of The Masters' city-ship in Danger Zone means there must be SOMETHING akin to the original ARPA/DARPANet. Cochrane's lab had to be connected to some sensor platforms. Plus, in Volunteers the hovercycle LCD display has something that looks an awful lot like a map display, so a type of GPS might also be in use.

[Peacebringer]

...And that gets me thinking of yet a further AU where the Tirolians/Robotech Masters arrive and discover that Earth is less awestruck/impressed by them because we'd already independently been producing vat-grown baby soldiers(I believe the original Cyberpunk RPG has a line about the future being a time when 'babies are grown in tubes' when it suggests playing in machinery spaces and basements to get the right feel).
Tirolian Centurions and Terminators versus vat-bred cyberpsychotic ninjas and animal-biomods? Just take my money, man!

I'd say, the Tirolian body-armor is a lot more advanced, like SP:40 and similar to metal-gear with reflex-penalties: but, in some ways, the weapons in Cyberpunk are superior to the Tirolians; lasers are great, with near unlimited shots, but if you use CP:2020's system, they only do half-damage vs. vehicular-armor because they're D6. But, they're still Armor-Piercing, so it balances out, but not by much. They can really put infantry with flak-vests, in the hurt-locker though.

And I rewatched the Sentinels' cartoon about the Invasion of Triol. The Masters seemed like a weak and worn out society, that perhaps, put all their military-reliance on the Zentraedi, but hadn't invented any effective-weapons etc.
.
The resized Tactical-Battlepods were a surprise; so, Cyberpunk's rules on military-walkers makes them weak, and just about any weapon on the battlefield can take down a walk. But, I gave the Tactical-Battlepods mini-Particle-Beam Cannons. In Cyberpunk, PBCs do EMP-damage as well, so, anyone with cybernetics or electronics was toast.

[ShadowLogan]

And I rewatched the Sentinels' cartoon about the Invasion of Triol. The Masters seemed like a weak and worn out society, that perhaps, put all their military-reliance on the Zentraedi, but hadn't invented any effective-weapons etc.

The Masters forces on Triol in the Sentinels OVA were a weak & worn-out society location, but that wasn't because of their reliance on the Zentreadi. At this point the Masters main element was already enroute to Earth (left in 2013-ish, OVA was 2020-2 with an arrival time in 2029) and they had taken the best with them (and likely scavenged supplies and such).

[darthauthor]

I was never really clear about how the Robotech Masters Triol society work.

I am certain it was a surprise for the Masters to discover their Zentreadi Navy had been mostly wiped out.

So I guess the Masters thinking was, abandon ship (Triol), and go for the last ditch effort to secure the protoculture matrix and planet on which the flower of life grows.

For those left behind on Triol, we don't know what, if anything, they were told.
As the other posted, their best and brightest left (along with I suppose the best resources) with the Masters six or seven ships for their 20 or so year trip to Earth.

I guess they just kept trying to recreate the greatness that was before but lacked the resources. Had gone so long without challenges or threats they didn't need to innovate so they just recreated. Then the Invid came.

[taalismn]

I was never really clear about how the Robotech Masters Triol society work.
For those left behind on Triol, we don't know what, if anything, they were told.
As the other posted, their best and brightest left (along with I suppose the best resources) with the Masters six or seven ships for their 20 or so year trip to Earth.

I guess they just kept trying to recreate the greatness that was before but lacked the resources. Had gone so long without challenges or threats they didn't need to innovate so they just recreated. Then the Invid came.

Pretty much so...
Tirol had essentially become two cultures, the clone society under the Masters that controlled what amounted to an Empire, and a resident population of increasingly marginalized and aging natural-borns who lived on the dole the Masters provided them, under the protective umbrella of the aforementioned empire.
At its height, the Masters probably thought that they could generously provide the natural-borns with bread and circuses out of the surpluses that the Zentraedi were making possible with their conquests. More pragmatically, the Masters could have been using the natural-borns as eugenic reserves, kind of like how the world society in 'Brave New World' allowed non-engineered caste-people and dissidents to live on reservations as a hedge against unforeseen problems cropping up in the clone society. Anybody who posed a threat to their society, however, would be squashed(literally!) by Zentraedi or bioroid.
Under such reminders to toe the line and not make waves, the majority of natural-born Tirolians quit innovating, because the Masters made it clear that they controlled society and if you weren't a bio-mod clone, you had little chance of gaining any influence. Best you could likely hope for would be to have extra life extension and a clone line made of you that would be subservient to the existing power structure, since I think the existing Masters weren't about to let anybody else join their exclusive club at the top("Hey, we got three already").

If and when the Masters achieved a greater mastery of genetic engineering, might they have made the decision to get rid of the natural-borns as superfluous? Possible, but not likely. They'd just tamper off the medical support and luxuries and let nature take its course.

[darthauthor]

I never thought of "the Masters" as stupid.
Evil is a bit stong of a word but basically they made it to the top and never wanted to lose either their position or the empire over which they ruled. Everyone was a tool to them.
However, their empires depended upon protoculture. With its end came theirs.

The few other mistakes I can think that they made amounted to the dependency.
The Zentreadi.
Although, they mass defeat was really improbable.
I also felt "The Masters" should have had better oversight.
Attempting to destroy the Earth, to eliminate them as an influence to the Zentreadi was a waste
of a resource. I also wasn't sure they knew that the Flower of Life grew on Earth.

Another mistake was how "The Masters" responded to Earth's defense forces.
They could have communicated in the Zentreadi language or outright attacked to conquor.
Instead they lost a war of attrition because the allowed it to become one.
I can only imagine they saw Earth's people as inferior and technologically primitative by comparison.
The only thing I'd be scratching my head about, if I were them, was how they killed so many Zentreadi.

Only reason I can think of for them not to attack in full force at the beginning was the author need them to have a long war and lose.

Communication would have not made for a war story but more of an espionage one.
Probably more like the Taelons from the show Earth Final Conflict or the show V that also has visiting aliens
who appear peaceful.
It was a story for kids who wanted to see giant robots battle and I liked it.
I just don't like a story that wants us to believe smart people with strong motivations and advanced technology and experience making stupid decisions like a James Bond Villian.

[taalismn]

Part of the problem with the Southern Cross arc was because Robotech was stitched together from three separate series, with the circumstances of the alien invasion being different in each case. It would have been a lot more difficult to make a more convoluted plot from what Macek had available(they tried that, with the idiotic effort to make completely unrelated 'MegaZone' part of the Robotech storyline, and flopped miserably).

Yes, a smarter Masters set would NOT have arrived in low orbit and sat there looking intimidating until the Terrans fired first. They might have struck decisively and unexpectedly, snuck down and sucked the SDF monument dry(though its implied that something was blocking their sensors, making pinpointing the Matrix difficult), or might even have tried negotiating with Earth(THEN backstabbing us)...but hey, arrogant smug Robotech Masters who DID have superior tech. And that leads to giant robots and fleets of ships duking it out.

[Peacebringer]

Part of the problem with the Southern Cross arc was because Robotech was stitched together from three separate series, with the circumstances of the alien invasion being different in each case. It would have been a lot more difficult to make a more convoluted plot from what Macek had available(they tried that, with the idiotic effort to make completely unrelated 'MegaZone' part of the Robotech storyline, and flopped miserably).
. . .

That's actually really good from an RPG-material stand-point; if Robotech is nothing more than three shows stitched together, than you can stitch other shows into your games, like Dougram or Gundam and create their own story-arcs.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Yes, a smarter Masters set would NOT have arrived in low orbit and sat there looking intimidating until the Terrans fired first. They might have struck decisively and unexpectedly, snuck down and sucked the SDF monument dry

They DID try that. People forget that in their opening gambit, they basically sealed off Earth from the outside galaxy and from any reinforcements from deployed forces away from the planet for the foreseeable future (which amounted to a few months). They didn't just 'sit there up in orbit looking intimidating', they were damn near successful in a smash n' grab for the Ruins of the SDF-1 that were only foiled because Dana disobeyed a direct order and decided to check out the lights coming from SX.83 (and over Bowie's objections). In fact, it was at that point everything started going sideways for The Masters. Its also worth pointing out, despite the nonsensical and asinine 18-month timeline HG is wedded to, the series gives time cues again and again that points to the fact the 2nd Robotech War was short and very brutal (less than 6 months long). Dana's Story to Half Moon is only about a month tops, while Danger Zone to Deja Vu is only another month at max (the second attack in Danger Zone, Prelude to Battle and The Trap all take place within ~3-4 days). The only real big gaps are the time between Deja Vu and Triumvirate and again from Clone Chamber to Mind Games, but Mind Games to Catastrophe is only about 1 week (and that depends greatly on how long the 15th are prisoners).

[darthauthor]

I remember bits of the novels I read.

Some parts were very glossed over.

Something about Wraiths guarding the SDF-1.
Something the Master did not seem to have anticipated or had any idea about what do to about them.
The Master appear to be clueless about the location of the Protoculture matrix or how to find it and extract it.
It seemed short sighted of them to use a clone of Zor as a fighter pilot instead of nuturing a Zor as a scientist.

I also expected a more scientific and nuanced approach. The Master's empire had dealings with alien civilizations. They must have been customers, trading partners or at the very least subjects (maybe slaves).

I would have expected the Master's regime to attempt to communication with the Earthlings.
With their files, the same ones the Zentridi had access to only better, and smarter minds, it would be easy to understand the langauges of Earth. Also, the Master's could monitor and record the Earthlings communications with each other.

Instead, we get a story of a technologically advanced civilization lead by brillant, manipulative, and ruthless leaders who want to continue their way of life that relies on an exclusive and unique power source.
"Why didn't they just LIE?"

"Why not say they made the SDF-1 and they want their ship back."

"We are here for our ship. After our inspection we'll leave."

"We come to you in peace."