Turn Dead

[Veknironth]

Well, our group was attacked by a bunch of ghouls yesterday. Our priest tried several times to turn dead, to no avail. I look and ghouls are listed as Demons so of course it won't work. I tell him to not bother (yes I rolled on my Monsters and Demon Lore). Well, he then responds that it works on ghouls. Sure enough, right there on page 67 of the Main Book it says that it "only affects aminated skeletons and corpses, mummies and ghouls." What? Are ghouls some sort of special exception, or is this just another poor editing mistake?

-Vek
"Regardless, would Turn Dead work against this form of living demon?"

[kiralon]

Poor editing if i remember correctly, there are multiple places that have contradictory information
Turn dead says mummies are affected
Mummy description says it isnt affected as it is undead.
Zombie description says turn dead does not work on zombies because it is an undead.
The spell turn dead says it works on mummies as well.
It says it MIGHT work on work on vampires, ghosts, wraiths and spectres.
It takes 2 rounds to do so is a pretty useless ability, is light on information on what it does (how many does it effect,whats its range, how far away do they go, how long until they can come back, can they do anything while leaving, what happens if they are commanded to return by their created, which wins?)
So i use a different games system for turning undead.

edit
I do not class ghouls as demons, so yes, but by the rules no, as they aren't dead, or a mummy.

[ShadowLogan]

I did look up Turn Dead in the Main PF Book (2E). Now this is where it can get a bit interesting:
-the Priest Ability on pg67 does state "It affects only animated skeletons and corpses, mummies and ghouls." and later states "Vampires, ghosts, wraiths, and specters may be temporarily kept at bay, hesitating".
-the Invocation on pg191 states "This magic only affects skeletons, mummies, and corpses that are magically animated like marionettes; it will not affect vampires, zombies, ghouls, ghosts, or any corpse or skeleton possessed by a living entity."
-the Invocation Ritual pg211 "and turn dead (the mummy is an undead) do nothing at all" and a tad later "protections circles will hold a mummy at bay."
-now Ghoul & Nasu are found on pg318 and are classified as Lesser Demon.

The Preist-TD vs the Invocation-TD might have a larger reach due to the Devine source of their power, at least if we are looking for "internal world logic" though from a presentation standpoint I do agree it does seem like poor editing...

...Or does it. Well it is , but I couldn't help but wonder if there might be different types of mummies and ghouls that could qualify as "dead" instead of "undead". This rest is a bit more Megaversal in terms of sourcing as I don't have many PF books, but here goes.

Now memory wise I couldn't help but recall something called Mummy Immortalus and went looking. It wasn't in Rifts Conversion Book 1(Revised), so I tried PF's Land of the Damned#2 and found it (pg111) but it wasn't as helpful as it wasn't a reprint of the species description only a summary of how that creature relates to the LotD. It did steer me toward Monsters & Animals (pg121) which is a book I don't have, BUT there was a bit about them being the creation of Necromancy Spell of Legend (and it is an undead).

The Necromancy thing got me thinking to cross check the SoL, but it doesn't appear in the Rifts Book of Magic (and I don't have the PF book where Necromancy appears) but while reviewing various Necro spells I found this in the Command Ghouls spell (Rifts BoM pg189, Level 4) that states "This spell will affect Grave Ghouls, the Dybbuk and similar creatures, but has no affect on Dimensional Ghouls or ghoulish Demon Lords. [...] Grave Ghouls are too timid to consider retribution."

The spell Command Ghouls appears to indicate there are different types/levels of Ghouls, some of which are immune to the spell. Interestingly the Rifts writeup for the Dybbuk (WB1o pg174-5, not sure if it retains in WB1r or appears elsewhere in Rifts or where in PF) calls it a "The Demon Ghoul" (it can inhabit a recently deceased body). Still I am not aware of writeups for "Grave Ghouls" or "Dimensional Ghouls" (PF's Circle Magic does reference them in Summon Lesser Demon pg146) or "Demon Lords" (aside from the Nasu/Ghoul in PF, or are these the Dimensional Ghouls?) in terms of writeups, but it does seem like there are different types of ghouls so some of them might be vulnerable to Turn Dead (and if ghouls are like this than maybe there are Mummies also are like this).

[kiralon]

The spells name that makes the mummy immortalis is not mentioned in monsters and animals.
The maxpary shambler, which is noted to be an undead creature multiple times is affected by turn dead according to the maxpary shambler description.
The problem is in game when a player reads one bit and works off that knowledge, then can find out that there is contradictory information so the GM has to make a decision and inform the players who get turn dead what it will work on, and if this doesn't happen it causes friction at the game table, especially when the DM has planned an adventure on one premise and the player has planned using the other. Not knowing its range of effect is a pain as well, not to mention its duration. Its activation time is a pain as well, especially in larger playing groups as you get to site there and do nothing for 2 rounds and often by the time it gets to your action to actually do the ability the fight is mostly over. 2 rounds is waaay too long. It's why I scrapped the palladium version.

[ShadowLogan]

The name isn't mentioned in LotD2 (pg111), all it says is "The Mummy Immortalus is not the ordinary mummy slave created through common wizardry. It is the product of a Necromantic Spell of Legend, usually only performed by Necromancers and gods of death." It doesn't identify the SoL's name either, but we know such a SoL exists given the book text (even if we seem to becoming up dry on the details).

The MI discussion in LotD2 would seem to establish that like the Ghoul, there are different types of Mummy. If that is the case then it is possible then the idea that there are "dead" Ghouls and Mummies and "undead" Ghouls and Mummies would seem to make some sense, the lack of identifying which is which IS an issue of course (after all what is a Grave Ghoul and how is it different than a Dimensional Ghoul or Demon Lord Ghoul? And which if any does the Ghoul/Nasu relate to on the list?))

[kiralon]

I reckon it just talks about the ghoul in the palladium book, which i think likely would be the grave ghoul, but it is definately in the demon/devil part, so wouldnt work. It also looks like turn dead was initially aimed at just the animated dead (thus only working on the dead) and isn't named turn undead, and then later authors/editors incorporated ideas from other systems that include undead and they slipped through editing. The fact that it doesn't work on ghosts, spectres and the like reinforces that idea, and i am not keen on the description saying it may work on something without defining what will stop or allow it to work.

[ShadowLogan]

Dragons & Gods (PF2E) writeup for the God Anubis Lord of the Dead (pg154-6) under Minions (pg156) "Mummies: Anubis has many different kinds of Mummies, some with quite extraordinary powers. He can summon as many as he likes according to their abilities, or simply in quantity up to 500)."

So, there is additional evidence there is supposed to be different types of Mummies. Now those "different kinds of Mummies" are not detailed AFAIK, but still we're told the exist (a tidbit a GM can expand on?).

I went through D&G looking at Death Gods (and there were several), but this was the only real applicable tidbit I could find that might even be applicable here. There was a Hades Demon Lord of Ghouls (Mormo Lord of Ghouls, pg217-8), so it doesn't look like the Ghoul/Nasu in PF2E mainbook are the same as a Demon Lord.

[kiralon]

I'd assume the mummies anubis has have been buffed by anubis himself and likely started as normal mummies. It says he can summon them so does that mean there is a stock of them somewhere?
The Mummy Immortalis does not mention turn dead at all but does say they are undead.

[GoliathReturns]

Dragons & Gods (PF2E) writeup for the God Anubis Lord of the Dead (pg154-6) under Minions (pg156) "Mummies: Anubis has many different kinds of Mummies, some with quite extraordinary powers. He can summon as many as he likes according to their abilities, or simply in quantity up to 500)."

So, there is additional evidence there is supposed to be different types of Mummies. Now those "different kinds of Mummies" are not detailed AFAIK, but still we're told the exist (a tidbit a GM can expand on?).

I always took this to mean that he used various types of base creatures, and turned them into mummies.

IE, he took a few hundred wolves, and made them mummies to be guard dogs. A few elephant mummies to use as impressive rides. Some giants as warriors.

Etc etc

-GS

[kiralon]

I like the idea of a dragon mummy lol

[ShadowLogan]

I'd assume the mummies anubis has have been buffed by anubis himself and likely started as normal mummies. It says he can summon them so does that mean there is a stock of them somewhere?
The Mummy Immortalis does not mention turn dead at all but does say they are undead.

I mentioned the MI being undead. Assuming the MI is an actual type of Mummy and not just loose word usage then it would establish that there are different types of Mummies (and then we have the Anubis reference).

As far as Anubis. I'd assume the opposite that these variants are from the result of tinkering with the Ritual and can't be done post creation (precedent being Golems and the diamond heart option altering stats per the description in Rifts BoM, so a Megaversal example). That isn't to say something like enchantments & diabosim couldn't be combined or gear given, but I don't think that is what the text was shooting for, not that some of them couldn't fall into this category either given the vagueness of the text.

And it does seem like Anubis does have a stockpile of them somewhere, which for a God that is 1000s of years old shouldn't be that much of a surprise. Unlike Zombies or Golems, Mummies don't have some limitation (aside from supply) in terms of production either allowing one to mass produce them in volume.

I'm certainly willing to allow the Priest-TD ability to work on Mummies to be some function of the devine nature of their TD. The Invocation-TD like I said I have to wonder if there is some variant of Mummy we don't know about to explain the contradiction between it and the Mummy writeup. Then again Animate&Control Dead could work on non-magical Mummies technically so maybe that is what it is referring to avoid potential pitfalls (I-TD only countering animated skeletons with A&CD, allowing it to work against other types of remains, fresh corpses or really old dried out corpses).

I always took this to mean that he used various types of base creatures, and turned them into mummies.

Possible. In the real-world, there are examples of Mummies that aren't human, so we know it is possible. IINM there are examples of "undead" animals, so an animal Mummy would seem plausible.

I guess the question is how the stats would differ for the non-humans.

[Veknironth]

Well, would any of these mummies be affected by turn dead?

-Vek
"Stay on target, stay on target."

[kiralon]

I'd lean to no,
turn dead says yes to mummy, but no to undead, and mummy says no.
But i believe this would be a roll 1d6 for the yes/no answer.

[GoliathReturns]

Well, would any of these mummies be affected by turn dead?

-Vek
"Stay on target, stay on target."

So, the way I rule it, is based on sentience.

If it's a self-aware, thinking for itself being, turn dead wouldn't work.

But, if it's a "controlled" thing, like an animated skeleton, then it's subject to turn.

So, if we focus on mummies..

Mummy Immortalis is self aware, so no turning. Now, if you have an "animated and controlled" mummy, then it would be subject. IMO

-- GS
You wouldn't be able to Turn Karloff. He was the perfect Mummy.

[ShadowLogan]

Well, would any of these mummies be affected by turn dead?

The Priest version of TD, I would say yes since the Priest invokes the name of their deity (it also takes 30seconds to cast, unlike the Level 2 Wizard Invocation which is faster IINM) which could give the ability more umph given holy symbols can also impact vampires/undead holding them at bay (LotD2 pg117). Now invoking the deity may work on undead Mummies, but that may be a feature/bug of that type that is not present on other undead.

The Wizard version of TD I am starting to think no (at least the versions stated versions so far). My reasoning is that "mummies" in this case are not the Ritual-Mummies (or more powerful Immortalus), but rather a classification of a dead body that someone can animate using "Animate & Control Dead" as the text "are magically animated like marionettes" and NOT "any corpse or skeleton possessed by a living entity", which is an odd negative based on what we know of the Ritual Zombie (and even Mummy) that no possessing entity is involved. Basically what I am saying is that you can encounter 4 basic types of Mummy:
-1. non-magical Mummy, natural or artificial means have rendered a corpse in a mummified state
-2. a temporary enchanted non-magical Mummy (Mage animates a corpse that also qualifies as being a mummy due to its physical condition)
-3. a permanent enchanted Mummy (ex. the Invocation Ritual or the Immortalus variant, likely also the undescribed Anubis ones)
-4. a possessing entity is involved (I'm not aware of any examples, but basing this on the text for the Invocation suggests this is possible), this might also be how the Immortalus variant works (using your own life essence to possess your own dead body?) but that is speculation on my part here.

[Mogge]

Just a follow-up question, since I am rather new to PF and have had no priest (unfortnately in my group). Isn´t TD rather useless if it takes 2 full turns? 30 seconds and rather open for attacks seems like a bad trade-in, especially if your group are small.
Im considering to make TD a 2 actions prayer insteadt of 2 full turns, would that upset other rules or be overpowered (I don´t see how, but..).

Best regards.

[kiralon]

If ya want i can pm you the rules i use.

[Soldier of Od]

I consider the priestly turn dead works against ghouls. It doesn't say that it "works on ghouls because they are some kind of dead thing", just that it works on them. So there is no contradicting information (unless you count the title of the power, but the titles generally used in Palladium are quite loose and don't often define the details of the ability as such. Palladium priests just refer to their power as "turn dead", because to call it "turn dead and ghouls and mummies and keep vampires and ghosts at bay" would be silly).

The mummies thing is more difficult, as it looks like there is conflicting information. I think the turn dead spell, by saying "This magic only affects skeletons, mummies, and corpses that are magically animated like marionettes" shows that it works against corpses that have been mummified in a traditional non-magical way, and subsequently "animated", but not against magical mummies created via the create mummy spell. Others have already pointed that out. So no contradiction there.

The create mummy spell says "Magic charms, mind control, sleeps, curses, illusions, illness, paralysis, and turn dead (the mummy is an undead) do nothing at all!" - you could read that specifically as magic charms, magic mind control, and such don't work, so the limitation is for magic turn dead, and not necessarily priestly turn dead. A bit of a stretch maybe.

I believe the references to mummies in the turn dead spells and clerical ability refers to ordinary mummified corpses later animated, so neither will work on a "create mummy" mummy.

However, I think I would consider adding a house rule that priestly turn dead works on mummies. It is already shown to do more than the turn dead spell. And (as others have said) it takes so long to do it deserves to to more.

The priestly version does have a few more advantages I think - it doesn't specify range, duration and such, like the spell does, but does say that it is "similar to exorcism", which could mean that it lasts for 6 months, instead of the 24 hours of the spell, and that the range covers a dwelling or an "area" (which may at least included something as large as a graveyard), instead of the spell's 60ft. Also, there is no limitation on numbers, so I assume it affects all animated dead in the area instead of only 1D6 per level. And, although there is a success rate, there is no saving throw, so if it works, all the dead in the area leave. With the spell, there will always be stragglers - on average only around two-thirds of the targeted dead would leave. So, although two melee rounds is a very long time to cast a power, it does have greater effects.