Optional damage rules: When should these be applied?

[Soldier of Od]

The optional damage rules for PFRPG are on page 20. The opening paragraph reads as follows:

Optional damage rules:
A character receives severe physical damage when he loses a great amount of hit points (80% or more). The following are optional tables that list side-effects from serious physical injury. The effects of the damage are generally temporary and cumulative. Thus, if a character suffers severe damage during several different battles within a short period of time, he or she will suffer the multiple effects from that damage. Roll each time severe damage is endured.

There are two tables, the Minor Injury Table and the Side-Effects from Physical Damage (Hit Points) table. They include the following notes:

Optional: Minor Injury Table
Remember, symptoms and penalties are cumulative; roll each time the character is badly hurt.

Optional: Side-Effects from Physical Damage (Hit Points)
Roll on this table when 80% to 95% (almost all) of your hit points are depleted.

There are also rules for when a character recovers from being dead or in a coma (zero Hit Points or less).

If these optional rules are introduced to a game, when do you think a character should roll on these tables? Does the first paragraph mean that you shouldn’t use either table unless 80% or more of a character’s hit points are gone? Is “badly hurt” the same as taking “severe damage”? In which case, don’t the two tables basically overlap? If not, what does “badly hurt” mean? Is the GM supposed to make a judgment call as to when to use the first table, e.g. if the character is hit by a particularly damaging blow, or if they take a lot of damage in a single battle? Whatever a lot of damage means. Would this apply even if the “lot of” damage is only to their S.D.C.? How do you guys think this should work?

And… what happens if 96-99% of the character’s hit points are depleted?

[green.nova343]

Hmmm...yeah, those are similar to the rules from the RMB book as well (although it had a 75% threshold for the severe). But they're not exactly clear on the "minor" portion. I think at one time there was something about optionally using them for when a critical hit occurred, or possibly when a single attack inflicted a "significant" percentage of damage, but can't remember the exact metric.

What I would suggest is the following:

• Severe Injury table only applies when they've exhausted all of their SDC & have lost at least 80% of their HP. That sticks with how the table is written. Note that those injuries will last for 1D4 weeks.
• Minor injury table is rolled on when they have exhausted their SDC but still have at least 20% of their HP left. Those are cumulative & last for 3D4 days (each one rolled separately).
• If they've only taken SDC damage but haven't lost any HP, they don't roll anything.

So, for example, someone has 30 SDC & 20 HP. The first 30 points of damage they take will drop their SDC to 0, but they haven't suffered any actual injuries. Then they get stabbed twice by a Dagger (3 HP first time, 4 HP second time) & once by a Short Sword (5 HP). That's 3 rolls on the Minor Injury table...but they still have 8 HP (40%). However...if the next attack that hits them inflicts 4-7 HP of damage, they now have to roll once on the Severe Injury table (because they've dropped below the 20% threshold).

[Soldier of Od]

Thank you for your ideas, but they seem a little harsh to me -
Non-man-at-arms O.C.C.s only get 1D6 S.D.C., and may well have selected no physical skills to bump that up further; so, even at higher levels when they have loads of H.P., they are likely to fall very quickly into Hit Point damage in every battle they face. I think would be a bit much to have those characters receive (cumulative) penalties from every fight they take part in.
Also, receiving a minor injury from every individual hit that causes Hit Point damage, could end up being a bit lopsided. I could take 3, 4 and 5 points of damage as in your example, and have three injuries to contend with from a total of 12 points of damage, or I could take a massive 40 point hit and have only one injury.
I do appreciate your input, but I don't these particular ideas will work for me in their current form. Thanks anyway!

[GoliathReturns]

I don't use it as written, but, my general rule of thumb is

SDC is SDC. It's your cuts, scrapes, bumps and bruises.

But,
If you take 40% of your total HP in a single blow gives a chance for some form of minor permanent injury.

If you take 80% of your HP in a single blow, a chance for a more severe injury.

If you take 100% of your HP in a single blow, but don't die (or do die, but get brought back), then it's a guarantee of some form of injury- depends on how bad the beating was for how severe.

I also will adjust this as needed. Such as a character who got killed, and while dead, his body took a lot more damage- a gigantes used it as a weapon for a while, and then when the Gigantes was killed, it landed on the body. When our hero was brought back to life, I took all that additional battering into account for his injury.


In general, I don't like the "random" tables for something permanent like that- I'd rather it be tailored to the circumstances

-GS

[Soldier of Od]

Interesting... so kind of the opposite idea - even if a character's H.P. were whittled down to -80%, they wouldn't need to roll on the table in this case? Only if it happens all in one go does it cause an injury?

[Stone Gargoyle]

They really need to make trauma tables lke the ones in the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons, only for stab wounds and such. You shouldn't be able to shrug off damage once it starts going to Hit Points.

[Grazzik]

They really need to make trauma tables lke the ones in the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons, only for stab wounds and such. You shouldn't be able to shrug off damage once it starts going to Hit Points.

Yes - clarity about cumulative effects from damage is important and CCW does a decent job of that... there must be consequences!

However, the problem using CCW and similar tables in the various books, like Conversion Book 1, is that is not always clear what is or isn't minor or major or severe damage... a bit of a judgement call. Also there must be more of a spectrum than what is a glancing blow, a heavy hit and dead. A sliding scale would be helpful. Kinda like taking the CCW optional rules and combining them with the knockdown tables in CB1... perhaps milestone impacts (a la CCW), but a % chance of extra penalties based on the amount of damage (a la CB1). Sure this could be (nah, definitely is) a tad overengineered, but adds a bit of chance that isn't all or nothing.

[GoliathReturns]

Interesting... so kind of the opposite idea - even if a character's H.P. were whittled down to -80%, they wouldn't need to roll on the table in this case? Only if it happens all in one go does it cause an injury?

If it's whittled down, I may give them some minor injuries that they'll recover from, depending on the type and method of damage.

For example, Bob The Wizard has 10 hit points. He takes several arrows to the leg, totalling 8 points of damage.

It wasn't one impact of 80%, but, I may apply some penalties to his leg. These would be temporary, and once he's healed up, they'd go away.

Now, if these weren't all to the leg, but maybe, one leg, one arm, and two to the torso, I may not do those penalties at all.

It really is for the spice.

I'll also give chances to injuries on critical hits that do max damage.

--GS

[drewkitty ~..~]

if you are doing a 'Roll' playing game, don't use them.
If you are doing a 'Role' playing game, use them where the GM sees fit.

[kiralon]

I find injuries as a good storytelling tool, but if you jump off a 60ft building onto paving, if you survive the fall don't expect to walk away. Magical healing pretty much fixes the problem however, if i remember correctly it wont even leave a scar so generally an injury will usually only last for a session or less and applying the injury tables to opponents is too much work for them all and i try to treat the players the same as the npc's so i do not use them.

[Soldier of Od]

Interesting... so kind of the opposite idea - even if a character's H.P. were whittled down to -80%, they wouldn't need to roll on the table in this case? Only if it happens all in one go does it cause an injury?

If it's whittled down, I may give them some minor injuries that they'll recover from, depending on the type and method of damage.

For example, Bob The Wizard has 10 hit points. He takes several arrows to the leg, totalling 8 points of damage.

It wasn't one impact of 80%, but, I may apply some penalties to his leg. These would be temporary, and once he's healed up, they'd go away.

Now, if these weren't all to the leg, but maybe, one leg, one arm, and two to the torso, I may not do those penalties at all.

It really is for the spice.

I'll also give chances to injuries on critical hits that do max damage.

--GS

How do you take an arrow "to the leg" using Palladium Fantasy rules?

[GoliathReturns]

Interesting... so kind of the opposite idea - even if a character's H.P. were whittled down to -80%, they wouldn't need to roll on the table in this case? Only if it happens all in one go does it cause an injury?

If it's whittled down, I may give them some minor injuries that they'll recover from, depending on the type and method of damage.

For example, Bob The Wizard has 10 hit points. He takes several arrows to the leg, totalling 8 points of damage.

It wasn't one impact of 80%, but, I may apply some penalties to his leg. These would be temporary, and once he's healed up, they'd go away.

Now, if these weren't all to the leg, but maybe, one leg, one arm, and two to the torso, I may not do those penalties at all.

It really is for the spice.

I'll also give chances to injuries on critical hits that do max damage.

--GS

How do you take an arrow "to the leg" using Palladium Fantasy rules?

Called shots, primarily. But I'll also take into account things like cover, and size.

If you're really close to, for example, a gigantes warlord, the leg might be the only thing you reasonably CAN hit.

Or if in an area with, again example, some partially collapsed buildings, and the villain (or hero, depending on the Party's alignment) is taking covet, there might be gaps where his leg shows, or where only his arm is exposed.

It's all those small little things. If players successfully take advantage of that stuff, then I'm going to let then have some nice perks of it.

I counter these perks with the "good for the goose" rule. I will use things like called shots against the players equal to the number of times players use called shots against villains, minus one. So if players go around doing called shots every time theyre rolling attacks? Then villains will as well.


-GS
Your players were so obsessed over if they could, they never stopped to ask if they should.

[Stone Gargoyle]

We haven't even discussed when damage goes directly to Hit Points and Penetration Value.

[GoliathReturns]

We haven't even discussed when damage goes directly to Hit Points and Penetration Value.

Technically, "generation value" isn't in PF.

Most "direct to hit points" are magic or psionics.

When it comes to long-term effects of magic or psionic damages, I tend to focus it on phobias, or similar mental impacts.

-GS

[Stone Gargoyle]

Some people make anything that pierces internal organs, like a stab wound, go direct to Hit Points on a called shot/strike. The idea that you can stab someone and not have them bleed out is also absurd. I always make players make a saving throw when they are stabbed and blood loss continues to cause damage unless a wound is treated. This idea that characters can cut each other up and keep battling is also absurd. Common sense says that characters would retreat before they took enough damage to have to apply optional damage effects, but often players keep going as if they are indestructible.

[GoliathReturns]

I don't do bleed damage until it's HP. To me, that's what the SDC is all about - it's surface damage. Cuts, bumps, bruises, etc.

If it goes to HP, I generally do 1 point per round per critical hit they take.

After combat, this changes to a constant 1 point per round, even if there were no critical hits, or if there were 10 of them. Just a flat one point.

I'm not put to just kill the characters, but, combat can be lethal.

This isn't MERPS, where I have huge massive charts for anything and everything (although, I have gone that route in the past). Sure, that way is cool- but it can massively bog everything down.

--GS

[green.nova343]

Thank you for your ideas, but they seem a little harsh to me -
Non-man-at-arms O.C.C.s only get 1D6 S.D.C., and may well have selected no physical skills to bump that up further; so, even at higher levels when they have loads of H.P., they are likely to fall very quickly into Hit Point damage in every battle they face. I think would be a bit much to have those characters receive (cumulative) penalties from every fight they take part in.
Also, receiving a minor injury from every individual hit that causes Hit Point damage, could end up being a bit lopsided. I could take 3, 4 and 5 points of damage as in your example, and have three injuries to contend with from a total of 12 points of damage, or I could take a massive 40 point hit and have only one injury.
I do appreciate your input, but I don't these particular ideas will work for me in their current form. Thanks anyway!

No problem. I will say, however, that the situation probably won't come up too often. The whole point of non-men-at-arms OCCs is that they're not supposed to be wading into combat. That's what the warriors/tanks are supposed to be doing. The others -- especially squishy spellcasters -- are supposed to be using combat as a secondary option, using their spells & other abilities first. But even for most warriors, that 3D6 SDC base isn't going to be much protection. That's good for maybe a single hit from a Battle Axe, Claymore, Flamberge, Berdiche, Scythe, Lucerne Hammers, Halberd, & many other Pole Arms (3D6 damage), or a Voulge (4D6 damage), & even most other weapons are going to eliminate most of their SDC base, like Stone Axes, Awl Pikes, Beaked Axes, Glaives, Guisarmes, Long Spear, Scimitar, Falchion, Long Sword, or an arrow from a Long Bow (2D6 damage for all of those).

But all that means is that the men-at-arms don't start losing HP until the second hit. When it comes to HP, men-at-arms don't get a bonus; they have the same issues that the non-men-at-arms do. Average 1st-level character is going to have 13-15 HP, avg. of 14 (3D6 for PE = 10 or 11, +1D6 at 1st level = +3-4). By 5th level, they're maybe only looking at 25-31 HP, avg. of 28 (starting PE 10-11, +3-4 HP per level x 5 levels = +15-20).

What I think is overlooked is that in the Palladium system, HP (& to a lesser extent SDC) are both an absolute and a relative measurement of a character's toughness. Having more SDC can mean that your skin/tissue is naturally more "tough" than some other character's...but then you'll also tend to see some sort of "natural A.R." also be involved. Most of the time, higher SDC just means that in a combat situation you can look it as either the character is better able to shrug off "inconsequential" damage, or that the character is knowledgeable enough that even though they can't avoid the damage, they still have the knowledge/experience to shift their body around, maybe even "move with the attack", to the point that it's not as impactful on them than on someone else. With HP, it's similar: a character with 14 HP who's already depleted their SDC is stabbed by a Long Sword (let's say max damage of 12) has taken a severe hit -- probably a major stab in the gut or chest, possibly near the heart, or severe trauma to one of their limbs; there's going to be blood loss that will render them unconscious within 2 melees (assuming they don't take additional damage), & you're looking at that role on the severe injury table (because they've taken more than 80% of their HP base). But they're a 1st-level character, hence their low HP base. Same scenario, same Long Sword damage (12 damage), but in this case the target is 5th level & has 28 HP. Yes, they'll have blood loss...but assuming they can avoid damage, they now have minutes instead of seconds to have it treated (around 4 minutes instead of 30 seconds) before they'll fall unconscious. And in this case, instead of the sword going all the way through them, or causing massive trauma to an arm or leg, it's dealt an injury that's less severe. Maybe it only caused a stab wound in their quadricep instead of breaking the bone; maybe it penetrated the torso but missed a major organ or the ribs; maybe they took a knock to the head but didn't get a concussion. Same weapon, same total damage...but different effect because the relative level changed.

Even with less damaging weapons you can see something similar. At 14 HP, you might not worry about the first two stabs of a knife (1D6 damage), but after the 3rd you're going to be sweating it no matter what your character is. At 28 HP, you don't start worrying until the 4th or 5th knife stab (maybe more, depending on how badly your opponent is rolling for damage). At 42 HP (average for 9th-level adventurer with PE 10-11), unless your opponent rolled a Critical Hit you can even survive a max damage hit from a Voulge (24 damage) with only a roll on the non-severe injury table; if it comes to knife wounds or arrows from a short bow, you won't start sweating it until maybe the 9th or 10th one.

That being said...any time that combat has reached the point that you're out of SDC (& possibly no armor SDC left) and you're taking HP damage, you should seriously be considering following Brave Sir Robin's example & running away.