Pricing gems and precious metals

[darthauthor]

Player characters want to sell some stolen copper, gold and silver.

I ask for help, here, in putting a universal credit price for them.

Maybe price varies by location:

Lazlo?
Chi-Town Burb?
Kingdom of Ishpeming? (or the Northern Gun Company)
Merc Town?
Free Quebec?
Naruni Enterprises?

[Grazzik]

Player characters want to sell some stolen copper, gold and silver.

I ask for help, here, in putting a universal credit price for them.

Maybe price varies by location:

Here is my spot price list I use based on a mix of canon and fudge factor... feel free to modify as you see fit. Some basic design house rules tho...

1. Gold is megaversally constant in scarcity, so it maintains whatever intrinsic value it has anywhere in the Megaverse and makes for a simple way of dealing with currency across dimensions.
... Rifts Earth 16000 universal credits/lb
... Phase World 3200 universal trade credits/lb
... Palladium 2500 GP/lb
Any other trade item may increase or decrease in value depending on local supply, demand, legality or industrial use. Gold is extremely stable in the grand scheme of things.
2. Silver on Rifts Earth is 1000 Cr/Oz due to Minion War
3. 1 PF GP = 6.4 Universal Credits
4. $ prices probably need 10% inflation added since gold is now $2k/oz
5. For gems go to the books.
6. Identifiably stolen goods are not traded at spot price, but at a very steep discount.

Metal . . . . . Rifts Cred/Oz . . . . GP/Oz . . . . . $/Oz
Palladium . . . . 3000 . . . . . . . 470 . . . . . . . $2,300.00
Platinum . . . . .1500 . . . . . . . 235 . . . . . . . $1,100.00
Iridium . . . . . . 2000 . . . . . . . 312 . . . . . . . $2,300.00
Rhodium . . . . .2000 . . . . . . . 312 . . . . . . . $15,000.00
Osmium . . . . . 800 . . . . . . . .125 . . . . . . . $400.00
Germanium . . .150 . . . . . . . . 24 . . . . . . . . $50.00
Gold . . . . . . . . 1000 . . . . . . 156.25 . . . . . $1,850.00
Silver . . . . . . . 1000 . . . . . . . 31.25 . . . . . . $30.00
Bronze . . . . . . 50 . . . . . . . . 15.625 . . . . . . $0.10
Copper . . . . . . 20 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . $0.20
Aluminum . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 0.6 . . . . . . . $0.06
Zinc . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . 0.8 . . . . . . . $0.07
Tin . . . . . . . . . . 50 . . . . . . . . 7.8 . . . . . . . $0.50

[darthauthor]

You are a beast Grazzik!

You crushed it!

More than I expected.

"Incredibly" detailed.

Over produced.

Mad respect for you.

[Grazzik]

You are a beast Grazzik!

I do a lot of merchant/occupational adventures (read: PCs with giant targets on their backs), some megaversally. So, a solid grasp of economics and trade is essential. I also hate doing math over and over, so the reference table helps big time.

Also, by keeping silver and gold at the same price, PCs can be sloppy and smelt down jewelry with both metals on the fly in the same cupel and not have to worry about the processes for separating them. Leave that to the NPC trader to do.

Or use a NB TtGD modified Create Steel spell to separate out precious metals... I like to call it Create Gold in keeping with PB's penchant for misnomer spells.

[glitterboy2098]

officially, Gold is 1000cr an ounce. and silver is 600cr an ounce.. except in mexico and the NA south west, where it's also 1000cr an ounce (because it's in higher demand due to vampires.)

[green.nova343]

Don't forget that if the PCs are selling gemstones & precious metals, they will not receive full market value for them. Mainly because the merchant they're selling it to has to make a profit...& if he pays full price for the materials, then if he sells them for list price he's not only not making money on it, he has no profit margin to cover any other costs he has (utilities, rent, food, purchasing other items, etc.).

What I would recommend is, at a minimum, you roll 1D4x10 or 1D6x10 (or even 1D4x10+20; although I would recommend the lower roll in general), and that's the percent of market price that the PCs will get from the transaction. The variation covers market fluctuations, differing profit margins needed for a particular merchant, etc. For characters that have high MA and/or PB, they can attempt to use their bonuses to influence the merchant (assuming that the merchant doesn't have a high MA/PB, which could counteract it). It could allow for some good role-play situations (which would involve some rolling of dice) or a strict rolling of the dice to see if they can maybe get a boost. I wouldn't recommend more of a +10% or +20% bonus be the result, however, because, again, the merchant needs to stay in business. Note that this can also provide some future role-playing situations for the party: making a good impression on the merchant could lead to them stopping by in the future, & after some successful transactions the merchant might start giving them a higher payout for what they bring (or maybe even a "favored customer" discount on purchases from the store); a bad impression, however, could result in the merchant giving them less money in the future.

Although it could also get complex, you could also incorporate an additional dice roll to affect the base prices, to further reflect market variations (including local variations, such as too much gold or copper being sold from scrap in the area, or a higher demand for a particular gemstone because one or more Techno-Wizards are making a particular device that needs it). Maybe something like:

• 01-10%: Market crash, GM's choice of either half normal base price or reduce base price by -2D4x10%
• 11-35%: Depressed demand, reduce base price by -5D6%
• 36-65%: No change, normal base price
• 66-90%: Increased demand, increase base price by +5D6%
• 91-00%: Hot market, GM choice of either double base price or increase base price by +3D6x10%

[Grazzik]

A couple of things when it comes to selling loot, here are some guidelines I've used.

When it comes to selling jewelry or gear or other manufactured goods, there is definitely a steep discount applied by the purchasing merchant or pawnbroker. A quick guide is RMB pg 206-209 to figure out reasonable rates. The BM Sourcebook is also helpful. I've my own macro driven tool that randomizes offered prices based on the type of merchant, the barter skill, etc. But, as always, it comes down to whatever the GM wants to offer PCs.

When it comes to gems - this is all up to the GM. The whole process of pricing gemstones IRL is so convoluted that unless you really know what you are doing or have faith in what goes into certifying the stone, then it is easy to be bamboozled. It goes beyond simply carat to include quality, color, flaws, cut, etc. Despite several tables in the books, they are way too simplistic for anything other than a quick exchange with PCs who aren't counting their pennies. Ultimately, the GM makes the final determination.

When it comes to precious metals, most reputable merchants in markets where there is reasonable competition and that deal in metal offer just below spot price. Not a steep discount. Jewelry will be traded at the same price as bullion and PCs will likely get little to no extra value because it is pretty. In all likelihood it will be melted down anyway. Coins are the big rip off unless you use them as legal tender. Sometimes from dealers or mints, you could end up paying 100+% for a coin's metallic value simply because of the artistic or collectable value of the coin. When a PC is selling a coin, it is treated as bullion unless the PC can make the pitch on rarity by being part of the collector crowd.

[Slider65]

I am curious how you would handle characters with the barter skill? Skill roll to increase the amount they can receive? I wouldn't let them get more than it is worth, but I would allow a higher amount that they would receive than someone without the skill. I also have had my players, who like to thing ahead, carry 1 oz. trade bars of precious metals, or gems/jewels to barter with.

I am also curious how people handle money when dimensionally travelling? For instance traveling from Rifts Earth to, say the United Warlock Worlds or Phase World, or even different Earths. I know there are rules in the Phase World sourcebook for converting RE credits to local tender, but what about other dimensional nexuses, or more out of the way places like Wormwood? I doubt your going to be paying your bar tab with a UCC from Rifts Earth. Just use the same rules from the Phase World sourcebook?

I do have a multi-dimensional banking consortium in my game that has branches in various other dimensions that allows the characters to convert their credits into local currency either before traveling there, if a planned trip. Or in the case of an unplanned one, they have various means of locating a "local branch." Of course this does require the characters to have an account with them, and one of their proprietary UCC's, and there is a small fee.. but they are happy to make the exchange.

[Grazzik]

As mentioned above, my house rule is that Gold has a persistent value through the megaverse as it has a consistent scarcity on average. This makes things much easier for a game when there's a common medium of exchange without having to apply multiple PhDs to model a transdimensional economy. This means rounds and bars are treated as currency and not usually subject to barter. In remote locales, where the metal may be perceived as useless or of little value, it is bartered like any other commodity.

I am curious how you would handle characters with the barter skill? Skill roll to increase the amount they can receive? I wouldn't let them get more than it is worth, but I would allow a higher amount that they would receive than someone without the skill. I also have had my players, who like to thing ahead, carry 1 oz. trade bars of precious metals, or gems/jewels to barter with.

a) when selling to a merchant, goods will always be selling at a discount, so barter increases amount received - also check out BM Sourcebook pg 74 for a rule that could be extrapolated... +5% value for merchants that might belong to a trading guild or bloc.
b) when selling to a customer, barter can increase amount above fair market value.

Rounds and bars are a commonsense tactic used frequently in my games. Gems are useless to maintain value, unless they are found loot.

I am also curious how people handle money when dimensionally travelling? For instance traveling from Rifts Earth to, say the United Warlock Worlds or Phase World, or even different Earths. I know there are rules in the Phase World sourcebook for converting RE credits to local tender, but what about other dimensional nexuses, or more out of the way places like Wormwood? I doubt your going to be paying your bar tab with a UCC from Rifts Earth. Just use the same rules from the Phase World sourcebook?

As I mentioned, using a Gold standard, 4oz Gold = $8000 = 4000 UC (Rifts) = 800 UTC (3G) = 625 GP. However, when converting UTC directly to/from UC, PCs are at the whim of the market and I use the ratios as per DB2 pg 53, though unofficial moneychangers may double the exchange rate (DB12 pg 32). The gold route is more advantageous, but I'm willing to let PCs benefit if it keeps the bookkeeping to a minimum.

[green.nova343]

Agreed. On Phase World, or maybe some of the major CCW/UWW (or even Kreeghor) worlds, you might find a place that can exchange Rifts Earth credits...but you'd have to exchange them first. On more backwater planets, though, they'd probably look at you funny if you mentioned "Earth Universal Credits". Or they'll pull a Watoo & say "Universal Credits are no good here!"

With precious metals or gemstones, they would definitely be more universal...but again, you'll want to exchange them first. The problem you run into with barter is when your non-cash items aren't "small" enough for small-scale transactions. A little gold bar might be plenty of cash to rent a hotel room for a week (or even a month), but if that's the smallest bit you have it's overkill for paying a restaurant bill.

[Grazzik]

The problem you run into with barter is when your non-cash items aren't "small" enough for small-scale transactions. A little gold bar might be plenty of cash to rent a hotel room for a week (or even a month), but if that's the smallest bit you have it's overkill for paying a restaurant bill.

Well, according to my house rule math (blind to rounding errors), a 1 gram Gold bar = $70 = 35 UC (Rifts) = 7 UTC (3G) = 5.5 GP.

1 gram bar is probably enough to buy a good meal or half a Rifts Instant Heat MRE, but I wouldn't want to buy a single candy bar. Also, they can be carried around discretely, sown into a belt or clothes hem, or kept en masse in a big jingly coin purse.

[green.nova343]

The problem you run into with barter is when your non-cash items aren't "small" enough for small-scale transactions. A little gold bar might be plenty of cash to rent a hotel room for a week (or even a month), but if that's the smallest bit you have it's overkill for paying a restaurant bill.

Well, according to my house rule math (blind to rounding errors), a 1 gram Gold bar = $70 = 35 UC (Rifts) = 7 UTC (3G) = 5.5 GP.

1 gram bar is probably enough to buy a good meal or half a Rifts Instant Heat MRE, but I wouldn't want to buy a single candy bar. Also, they can be carried around discretely, sown into a belt or clothes hem, or kept en masse in a big jingly coin purse.

Very nice! That's some forethought there.

[glitterboy2098]

i would assume three things:

1, that there is a big market for coins and other sorts of small tokens made from gold and silver that adventurers can carry as tradable funds. likely these would take the form of fairly small coins, less than an ounce, but could also take the form of small bars, decorative jewelry, etc. and probably will have identifying marks for the manufacturer.

2, that any society or community with a developed enough economy to make gold and silver useful trade goods, will have also developed some form of local scrip accepted across the community, if not a full blown local currency. so odds are, instead of handing over a gold nugget or a stamped silver coin directly for purchase, you'd instead be going to the local store or bank or the like, and trade in a larger amount for the local bottlecaps or stamps or whatever it is they use as the main means of exchange. if the society has a local currency or their own credit network, this would take the form of whatever bills they use or a bank account and credit-access-cards for their network.

3, anywhere that the economy is not developed enough to have a local scrip, probably isn't going to view gold and silver as very desirable or useful as a trade good, and thus you'll have to find alternative items of trade, most likely based around useful items (clothing, cloth, hand tools, etc) or skills (doing work in exchange for what you want/need)

[Grazzik]

Side note before I begin: For those who may be wondering, when I use the reference to "oz" in previous posts, I am not referring to Troy oz. If you want to use Troy oz and Troy lb, you're on your own to do the math.

i would assume two things:

Interesting, I've thought about this and see things a little differently.

Coinage and other tradable tokens
Yes, I agree, the nature of any exchange economy is to find a fair and reliable means by which the value of commodities or services could be represented over time, without transporting or performing the commodity or service itself. Coins are a great choice and, building on previous forum discussions, the material that gives inherent value to a coin that is not valued by fiat would be only a small component of it. For example, 1 GP coin would have less than 0.18g of gold which is tiny. For ease of production, it is likely that the gold would be blended into the base metal of the coin or token. This would prevent popping out the gold core and undermining the other functions of coinage - demonstrating political / taxation authority or trade control over a region, ensuring amount/quality of the precious metal in the coin, etc.

However, for more popular coinage metals such as copper, bronze, or silver, if the entirety of the coin isn't the precious metal, then the core of the coin may be removable to allow the coin or token to serve both as a means of exchange and as a direct input into whatever metallurgic process would consume the metal of value.

Jewelry as an exchange medium in a game context is annoying as there is artistic or emotional value to the owner that is of little value to the purchaser. That's why I always treat jewelry as a tradable good like MREs, eClips, horses, etc. that is open to negotiation and barter. Never a store of value beyond the inherent value of its material(s).

Marks would definitely be displayed - whether from a mint, a metalsmith, or some authenticating body. They allow the general populace to trust that the coin or token is authentic and reliable - it is what it says it is. In places like Splugorth kingdoms, Lazlo, or UWW where there is a heavy preponderance of magic, I'd expect that physical marks would be supplemented with mystic marks (MoM pg 82).

Local Scrip
This gets to the heart of the question - what kind of campaign is being run megaversally? If the party is flitting between Center, Splynn, Lazlo and Worldgate, then using a standard megaversal exchange currency keeps the game on track. There are likely enough brokers in these places that local businesses would have no concern accepting a recognizable currency. That's why 1 and 5 gram gold or silver bars are handy. (And yes, GB, my house rules aside, outside of Rifts Earth the value of silver falls precipitously to the books' value and makes a better metal for smaller transactions). That said, true megaversal currencies likely are widely accepted in all the finer communities that cater to megaversal travellers.

If the party leaves the megaversal enclave, they're on your own to figure it out.

Megaversal exchange
If I was selling lemonade at a street corner and an Ogre walked up to me offering a 1 gram bar of gold for some of the watered down sweetened lemon juice, I wouldn't care that it was a dollar bill, I'd take the gold with no change. Just because there is a scrip doesn't mean something that is megaversally and consistently scarce (according to my house rule) like gold wouldn't be accepted by any sentient being that operates an exchange economy. Throw that house rule away and, as a GM, you're on your own to figure out how to buy your lemonade. And most players do not want to spend their game time doing bookkeeping.

So, what do megaversal travellers keep in THEIR wallet? Credit-based currencies are a given and dependent on the ability to read the card, chip, implant or biologic that retains the credit data. Mystic contracts are also likely. But what about coins or tokens?

Naruni credits or coins/scrip: This is a given that in most places their money is accepted, as Naruni Enterprises is ever-present in the background. The megaversal equivalent of Rifts Earth BM Credits.

Splugorth coinage: I like to think that the Slugorth get a evil kick out of using outsized coins rather than credits or scrip. Magical contracts, such as a Blood Oath (Rifts WB35 pg 97), are probably used for larger transactions.

UTC: While used across 60% of the 3G, it is probably recognizable in megaversal ports of call and accepted at a premium exchange rate to cover the cost+ of having to hold and convert into a more usable currency.

Modeus coins (DB10 pg 129): As a new currency, this may not be recognizable by local businesses, but the megaversal trader would have seen demons passing these out like candy during the Minion war. A quick note on Mods - I assume the "rubies" referred to in the book are ruby chips of no real worth and the coin has only a small amount of gold to give it the 100:1 exchange for credits... but WHICH credits? The reference in the book for a place where it is exchanged is Splynn, but it is never explained what currency is used in Splynn - Rifts Credits, 3G UTC credits or something else. The problem is compounded by the megaversal aspect of the Splugorth. In my games, I've assumed that Splynn does not use Rifts UC - why would they use a fiat currency administered in ChiTown? I've also assumed that Splugorth credits are equivalent to 3G UTC because it makes life easier for me when a party is in Center. I also assume that Splugorth credits are equivalent across all kingdoms - I just don't need the additional headache. That means 1 Mod = 100 UTC = 500 UC = 0.5oz Gold. That is a heavy coin.

Palladium World Gold Pieces: This all hinges on whether you see a lot of megaversal traffic in your game to and from Palladium. In my games, to keep the flavor of the setting, I limit the megaversal traffic to dragons, powerful mages, demons, etc. The type of NPCs that would have chests of gold rather than Gold Piece coins. This means GPs don't generally float around the megaverse. That said, I did once play a game where there was a True Atlantean colony on the world and they acted as a megaversal enclave that bridged the gap between GPs and megaversal currencies.

PPE: I've always thought that stored and transportable PPE could be used as a currency based on its utility. Like long hair - when it grows long, it can be cut and sold to wig makers. I haven't done the math on a PPE economy yet, as gold is sufficient for my games, but if a GM was running a magic heavy megaversal campaign in BTS or Dead Reign, PPE batteries would be a hot commodity and could be used as wearable tokens of exchange.

Fiat currencies like credits and dollars are generally worthless, unless there is a megaversal enitity like Naruni Enterprises interested in backing any exchange.