Possession

[darthauthor]

Edited:

Good Day,

I need some clarity on the power of Possession.

So there are two types of possession, as I see it, the super-psionic power, and those by entities and monsters.
I am referred to the kind by Entities.

Argument in advanture group.

Does the psionic power of "Mind Block" make one immune against the power of "Possession"?

Strictly reading the literal definition in Rifts Ultimate Edition it does not say immune to possession.

2nd. IF the power of "Mind Block" does not protect against possession Does Automatic Mind Block?

I feel we all agree that "Possession" is considered an attack and that you get a saving throw.
I'm just not CERTAIN if Mind Block is a defense against it (even if only a bonus of +1 or somthing).
May have made the mistake in the past of granting immunity with Mind Block.

The last adventure, player wanted to play a new character without keeping the old one.
Turned the retired characters into an NPC villian by possession only they have Automatic mind block so they argued that it wouldn't work.

So here I am checking with the experts.

Follow up:

I read that the possessor does not get the memories or skills of the host but do they get the psychic powers or magical abilities / spells. Someone told me that spells are NOT skills.

On the other side, the possessor, like a Mind Melter, can they use their pyshic abilities in the possessed "body" using their body of origins I.S.P and / or P.P.E. (if they can cast spells too)

[drewkitty ~..~]

the power of possession.....where are you pulling this out of a text from?

psionic power, HU superability: Transferal/possession, or the natural power of possession that some SN beings have?

But to just spit ball at all three..... psi-possession: yes, HU SA: the text does not say if it does or not, SN Nat. Ability: no, not a psi attack.

quote from the RUE MB text....

Note:Mind Block only blocks psionic attacks that affect the psychic's mind and emotional state (i.e.Telepathy, Empathy, Hypnotic Suggestion, etc.). It offers not protection from magic.

To bring the grade level down on the last line of the quoted text & in the power description....
' The Mind Block psionic power offers no protection from magic.'

[ShadowLogan]

Does the psionic power of "Mind Block" make one immune against the power of "Possession"?

Strictly reading the literal definition in Rifts Ultimate Edition it does not say immune to possession.

2nd. IF the power of "Mind Block" does not protect against possession Does Automatic Mind Block?

No, regardless of Mind Block, Group Mind Block or Automatic Mind Block, it does not block psionic possession (it does grant a bonus to save vs psionic attacks that it isn't immune to). Non-psionic possession, Mind Block types don't work against generally (there might be specific exceptions related to that form/source*).

*example, Nxyla's possessing entities require a flat roll regardless of class abilities or bonuses EXCEPT a flat +3 to save for all psychics (WB12)

The last adventure, player wanted to play a new character without keeping the old one.
Turned the retired characters into an NPC villian by possession only they have Automatic mind block so they argued that it wouldn't work.

I agree that AMB won't work to protect the characters from possession. However, w/o knowing the class of the character in question (off hand), they might have bonuses against possession (ex. if a Mind Melter they are +4 specifically per possession with not restriction on type) or outright immunity (ex if a Nega Psychic or Psi-Nullifier). Which could make them less likely a target/victim of possession, so the player might have some justification even if it isn't where they thought it would be.

Though I do think it can come across as a bit of a [bleep] move what you did with the character. IMHO retired PCs, while they can be used as NPCs really should be largely left alone (this way PCs can always bring them out of retirement w/o to much potential baggage).

[drewkitty ~..~]

'Follow up' section response:
yep, Spells are not skills. The closest thing I can think of that is analogues in a grade level that almost anybody can understand is a recipe or a song.

To continue the analogy, the cooking skill or the singing skill is analogues to the mage's ability to cast spells. (note, it is an ability to cast spells, not a skill.) So knowing different spells is sort of like knowing how to cook different recipes, or sing different songs.

So the literal meaning of the text, means that the one possessing the body of a mage can cast its magic and has access to the mage's class powers.

However, what I think the text was intended to mean, is that the possessor can use what spells the possessed has & their class powers, and that it can use it' own magic through the possessed body.

[darthauthor]

The player never plays the same character twice.

The situation did not have a convenient exit for the character.

Possession was a real threat in the environment setting.

I didn't know that mid campaign the player would want to change "characters" and I did not want to just kill the character. That player changes characters almost every game.

It also created a situation in which all the players would have to make a choice between slaughter or taking someone alive, for once. Sort of make an exception for once or murder your comrades possessed body.
So it is possible to take someone alive IF you really want to

What I am NOT sure of is how a possessing entity or SN being or psychic's possession gets to fight in someone else's body.
In terms of:
Hand to hand combat moves and bonuses

W.P. strike

Psionics

Magic

In doubt and not want to be over powered I had the entity fight like a zombie.
2 attacks per melee round.
No bonuses to strike.
No psionic attacks.

The way I saw it, any [Bleep] moves were performed by the players against an NPC character they knew was played once and retired from the game.
I even gave the character a public saving throw against the possession. The NPC lost.

The players could run away, subdue him and take him back for an exorcism or if they choose to kill.
The choice was theirs.
The circumstances just gave them a new reason to show restraint.
The choice to exercise restraint is theirs.
No bomb was going to go off.
No deadly weapon was being fired upon the group.
They had plenty of time and numbers to take him alive or kill him without risk of being killed themselves.
Made for a good fist fight.

I told the players, loud and clear, "If you don't want to fight him, you can run away or let him run away. You don't have to fight him. You don't have to kill him. But if you don't STOP him, you KNOW he's possessed and could do ANYTHING. IF you feel nothing for your ex teammate and just want to ignore him YOU CAN. OR you can rescue him as a side quest. BUT right here and now you need to decide because he's punch at you."

[darthauthor]

Is Possession blocked by Armor of Ithan or anything or is it just like a magic curse / de-buff or something like "Befuddle" ?

It is clear to me that "Mind Block" won't stop a possession attempt; especially since possession is more a magical attack than psionic unless it is the psoinic superpower (And I don't know about the heroes unlimited version because i don't have the book)

[ShadowLogan]

There isn't anything that can block a generic possession AFAIK. Though I wouldn't be surprised if there was a cybernetic/bionic system that does this essentially, or some specific magic options might exist.

As far as what the possession entity retains in the new body, only their memories, personality and skills (so any skill based bonuses they retain). They lose access to psionics (along with super abilities and spells). They also have to use the hosts body attributes (which might be better or worse depending on respective scores). This is in general (going off the super power in HU2E, PB does tend to go cookie cutter in terms of effects between Super Powers and Psionics and Magic so), some specific cases might be different (example the essence fragments used by Nyxla to create Xombies, or Elementals, etc)

[Stone Gargoyle]

My understanding of possession is that in the psionic version the invading entity retains their psionic abilities, mind and memories and cannot access those of the possessed person, whereas in the superability it is only the invading person's memories and personality that goes into the possessed individual and they can access all of the abilities and powers of the invaded person. I am going by how the entries are worded in the Heroes Unlimited game, specifically Mentally Possess Others page 312 and Transferral Possession page 295. I think the reason they are different is that a psychic would want to retain their psionic abilities while in possession of someone else, and a possessing super would want full use of all of the possessed person's abilities. I am curious how other people view them,whether they play all forms of possession as the same or if they see them as different the way I do.

[darthauthor]

Thanks Stone Gargoyle,

For me it was a lot to consider.

Some was obvious. Psionically possess a guy, he's got a gun. You his body. You have his gun. You shoot the gun.

You psionically possess a Dvyil Devil-kin.
You tell the GM you want to shape change to look like your real self, then use the possessed body's FIre Warlock magic.

It gets complicated.

Some guy punches your Devil-kin body.
You can punch him back; no problem.

He strikes your body with a sword.
You want to create your Mind Melter Psi-Sword or cast a spell you know.
GM scratches his head about if he should allow you to be able to do that.
Player asks if it takes I.S.P. or P.P.E. from the host body or their original human one.

Meanwhile an area of effect spell or hand-grenade goes off and kills the players host body
while in the demon.
Players wants to argue they have until the duration is up on their mentally possess others psionic super power.

Wants to astrally project and or mentally possess another body of another guy astrally projecting or in a coma.
GM doesn't know what to decide.
Goes along with it. Then says, "Congrats! Now you are in a coma!"

He tells the other players to use magic or psionics to heal him.
GM says, "Why would they don't even know you are in "there" that body? You never said you told them what you were doing. You leap before you looked."

All the players look at you.

Then he wants to telepathically tell them from the coma body.
Wants the buddys to do field surgery on the orginal body so he can transfer back.

It's a lot. Judging what can and can't go on is part of the game.

Sometimes, with nice players, it can get very amusing and as a GM I am inclined to accomadate intent over literal what they say during play. Take into account what the character knows over what the player did.

Hey, the games for FUN.
The players come to play; not be prison inmates and if they kinda of are, then every now and again they should get a chance to make an escape attempt and be an escapee.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Under the psionic ability, you have no way of accessing the magic abilities of the demon, which is why it is complicated. You let the GM sort it out. As a GM, my question was about the differences between the psionic ability and the Transferral/Possession superability. The superability seems to give you access to everything of the host body but none of your own abilities when possessing a body. I believe this is due to the psionic ability transferring and overriding everything in the host body. That was really what I wanted to discuss.

[Killer Cyborg]

Does the psionic power of "Mind Block" make one immune against the power of "Possession"?

Not that I can find, no.
You would get the +1 bonus to save vs psychic and mental attacks, because possession is a) mental, and b) an attack.

2nd. IF the power of "Mind Block" does not protect against possession Does Automatic Mind Block?

Nope.

I read that the possessor does not get the memories or skills of the host but do they get the psychic powers or magical abilities / spells. Someone told me that spells are NOT skills.

They're not skills per se, but if nothing else they ARE memories.
Spells have to be learned, memorized, just like any other knowledge.
If the possessing entity can't remember you learning to ride a bike, it cannot remember you learning to cast Armor of Ithan, and would have no idea how to do so (at least, it would not gain any idea how to do so simply because it possessed a mage).