Casting wards

[W.R.Xavier1]

One of my players wants the option to cast wards like a spell and not have to go through the requirements a diabolist would. However, I do have a house rule if that it is another Palladium product and if you RP for it then it becomes possible to quest for. Player mentioned they believed they had seen such a thing in Nightbane, however I do not have those books and couldn't find it in the forums. Does anyone remember if that Wards as a castable spell is in any of the settings or was it an option presented in the Rifters. What they said did ring a bell so I figured I'd go digging a bit more if it brings more RP to the table. If they are willing to earn it I'm willing to entertain it.

[GoliathReturns]

I'm unaware of anything like that, so I'd say POSSIBLY a rifter, if anywhere.

However, I'd strongly advise against it. That is 100% not a diabolist thing.

Wards require thinking and planning. Sure, if you have the wards prepared, you can assemble and activate in seconds. But that's not "the norm".

If you have a ward phrase prepared, you can force activate it. But, that's having the phrase prepared. Otherwise, it takes time.

Which is the entire point of the class. Diabolists are about thinking ahead, and planning. What wards and ward phrases will I need? How can I best use them?

[kiralon]

There is a spell called Wards in Nightbane and is likely what he is thinking, and is very much a lesser version of a diabolists wards as it has 9 possible effects, and if damage is done it does not scale. I would allow it in my games with the minor modification of when it is cast again, the old wards disappear and the new ones takes its place, which will stop people filling a stick with wards and hitting something with it.

[ShadowLogan]

The Spell called "Wards" kiralon mentions is also found in the Rifts setting (Book of Magic for sure, also the old Rifts Main Book but not RUE) in the Wizard's Invocation section. I could have sworn the spell was also in PF2E's main book (likely due to the largely C&P nature of the spells from RMB) but appear to be mistaken. I don't have see an issue with importing the spell per say (beyond the usual setting conversion issues like MDC to SDC if coming from Rifts).

Rifts does have the Nazca Line Magic (Rifts World Book 9 and Book of Magic) might also be a good stand-in depending on just what the player is looking for. The Nazca Line Magic does mention "circle making diabolist" having a knack for it when discussing other magic classes learning it (note I'm not 100% sure what they are referring to since PF's Summoner/Circle-Magic and Diabolist are separate classes and Rifts doesn't have an equivalent). Diabolist Wards are mentioned in one of the OCCs for the class, but also notes its not used by anyone who has any contact with this block (even internally).

As I said depending on just what they are looking for you might also be able to just use the Mystic or Wizard classes (or something similar) and just have it as "flare" in terms of how they learned to cast spells where they have to "draw" the spell in mid-air before it gets cast (I'd suggest the character requirement to pick up the Art Skill at minimum and NOT as a secondary skill) as part of the spoken incantation (or in place of) given gestures can be part of the casting process (and Rifts Ocean magic in WB7/BoM does cover spoken incantation aspects underwater when the caster could not speak properly, I'm not sure if PF has such rules) and drawing requires gestures.

[GoliathReturns]

The Nazca Line Magic does mention "circle making diabolist" having a knack for it when discussing other magic classes learning it (note I'm not 100% sure what they are referring to since PF's Summoner/Circle-Magic and Diabolist are separate classes

In PF, diabolists have some affinity with circles as well. Much more limited than it was under 1E, but it's still somewhat present.

--
GS

[Veknironth]

Well, this is a novel way for a player to get around the built in limitations of the Diabolist OCC. I'd just say no. Just play a spell caster.

-Vek
"Diabolist is not a great adventuring OCC."

[GoliathReturns]

-Vek
"Diabolist is not a great adventuring OCC."

I'll give that it isn't a GREAT one, but it is a decently solid one.

1) you've got the skillset of a scholar
2) with some planning, and just a few rounds of prep work, you've got a deadly defensive line
3) way more PPE than you need, so with some creativity, it's available for any wizards with you

It is my favorite class to play in PF. The biggest downside to it is that you'll be spending a LOT of your loot on components.

Probably the only class harder to PLAY as an adventurer is a summoner.

--
GS

[kiralon]

I had a lot of fun DM'ing a Diabolist in a one on one game as the player was also artistically inclined and was happy to draw the wards and symbols as he went.

[drewkitty ~..~]

One of my players wants the option to cast wards like a spell and not have to go through the requirements a diabolist would. However, I do have a house rule if that it is another Palladium product and if you RP for it then it becomes possible to quest for. Player mentioned they believed they had seen such a thing in Nightbane, however I do not have those books and couldn't find it in the forums. Does anyone remember if that Wards as a castable spell is in any of the settings or was it an option presented in the Rifters. What they said did ring a bell so I figured I'd go digging a bit more if it brings more RP to the table. If they are willing to earn it I'm willing to entertain it.

No Wards are not not 'cast', like spells are. They are only created by writing.
I have all the canon NB books. Including the NightSpawn book and the Rifts Dark Conversions. There is no text in them that lets a mage cast Magic Writing spells (a.k.a. wards) as invocation/common magic spells in them.

Note there is the 'Create Ward' common magic spell, but that is limited to a defined set of wards and the wards are not written magic spells and act differently.

[Hotrod]

Well, this is a novel way for a player to get around the built in limitations of the Diabolist OCC. I'd just say no. Just play a spell caster.

-Vek
"Diabolist is not a great adventuring OCC."

Hard disagree from me on this. Diabolists make great adventuring O.C.C.'s. In tactical situations, a diabolist with a fully-prepped ward arsenal can empower and force-activate area effect wards that can disable enemies pretty handily (and leave their teammates alone to boot). For planned fights, they can buff the party pretty effectively, and they can do so permanently with permanence wards. They pair magnificently with spell casters, and they get some nice skill possibilities/bonuses, enough to be skill monkeys in their own right.

That said, their effects are somewhat limited in scope compared with, say wizards. I sometimes think that summoners and diabolists should have been revamped and possibly combined in 2nd Edition, and written up in such a way that ward/circle knowledge is something to be acquired, rather like wizards and spells.

[Library Ogre]

That said, their effects are somewhat limited in scope compared with, say wizards. I sometimes think that summoners and diabolists should have been revamped and possibly combined in 2nd Edition, and written up in such a way that ward/circle knowledge is something to be acquired, rather like wizards and spells.

So, in writing up stuff for Mysteries of Magic, I had a couple things.

1) While most alchemists are 6/6/3 Wizard/Diabolist/Summoner, I also allowed for 6/9 Wizard/Diabolists.
2) I figure that Summoning is actually a relatively recent rediscovery since the Millennium of Purification; no way would the Synods allow demon summoning to remain as an independent art, but Diabolists know enough to figure it out if they have sources and, from their, form the backbone of a truly dedicated Summoner training program.

[Veknironth]

Well, my problem with Diabolists is just how long it takes them to do anything, even if they do have some unusual utility. Skills-wise, they do have a lot and they're really the only ones who can recognize wards with any proficiency. So, if you're walking around somewhere festooned with wards, they're great to have around. If you have a wagon train or caravan you can chalk the wagon wheels and circle the wagons and have a great perimeter, as long as no one travels outside of that perimeter to take a leak or anything. They are great for home security or extermination of pests.

But in an adventuring, it's a tough ask. Any sudden encounter, puts them well behind the curve. They have to go to where their premade wards are stored, activate the ward, and then hope someone stumbles into one. This is where someone will mention Area of Effect Wards, but I think that the line at the top of Page 126 negates carrying around Area of Effect Wards. Under the heading of "Area of Effect Wards" it says:

"Such wards can be placed on large stationary objects such as floors, walls, ceilings, archways, locked doors, large trunks, crates, and so on, but not items that are frequently used or carried."

So, that seems to rule out the preplanned AoE ward arsenal. That leaves you with a ward on the ground that someone has to touch or bump into. So, any unplanned attack means that the Diabolist is essentially a Man At Arms. Of course, straight 2nd Edition that diabolist can take H2H: Expert, Paired Weapons, and W.P. Chain and be just as good in a fight as anyone else since there are no martial differences between men at arms and non-men at arms other than non-men-at-arms can make wards and cast spells. I digress.

They can buff people pretty well, and if you can lay a trap in a fixed location you likely ONLY need a Diabolist. But, that's a really tricky thing to do. You need to know who your target is, where they'll be, and when they'll be there. If you're using AoE wards then you also need to know that no one else will be in that area to accidentally spring that trap. And you need the group to trust the Diabolist with their true names so that they aren't walloped by the ward. That's A LOT of trust to give someone and more likely they just stand outside of the radius of effect. Now, that all could work. But you could also just have a spell caster waiting and watching and do the same with with greater precision and flexibility.

Permanence wards sewn on someone should be way more common. It takes only 20 PPE and a little Demon bone. Imagine a group of people with a summoner who can bring up a weak demon, and then some goons with Superhuman Strength and Demon slaying weapons waiting for it to appear. Lots of Demon bone to be had there! Then the diabolist sells these permanent wards. You'd make as much gold as you can spend! Of course, this isn't really that great for adventuring. I'd gladly pay a Diabolist to festoon me with tiny wards sewn into my skin to protect me from a litany of ills, but I'm not excited about giving an equal share of loot with this person.

-Vek
"Like I said, just make a wizard or warlock."

[Library Ogre]

But in an adventuring, it's a tough ask. Any sudden encounter, puts them well behind the curve. They have to go to where their premade wards are stored, activate the ward, and then hope someone stumbles into one. This is where someone will mention Area of Effect Wards, but I think that the line at the top of Page 126 negates carrying around Area of Effect Wards. Under the heading of "Area of Effect Wards" it says:

"Such wards can be placed on large stationary objects such as floors, walls, ceilings, archways, locked doors, large trunks, crates, and so on, but not items that are frequently used or carried."

So, that seems to rule out the preplanned AoE ward arsenal.

As I've argued before, I think that makes an absolute restriction (it is completely impossible to do this) out of a practical one (if you do this, you're going to run into problems when someone moves the thing). Note that the next paragraph goes into more detail:

"Limitations: Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects, because the area affected becomes magically centered on the spot where the ward is first activated, not on the ward or the object itself. If the warded object is moved, it goes off instantly, affecting that area. Tossing the object away will not change/move the area currently being affected."

How do you toss away the floor? Move the ceiling?

We've had this argument before, of course; I just maintain that Palladium material isn't written as a precisely worded technical manual. The Megaverse runs on vibes.

[kiralon]

Lol @ wards on a boat. Not to mention the planet spinning and moving through space.

[GoliathReturns]

But in an adventuring, it's a tough ask. Any sudden encounter, puts them well behind the curve. They have to go to where their premade wards are stored, activate the ward, and then hope someone stumbles into one. This is where someone will mention Area of Effect Wards, but I think that the line at the top of Page 126 negates carrying around Area of Effect Wards. Under the heading of "Area of Effect Wards" it says:

"Such wards can be placed on large stationary objects such as floors, walls, ceilings, archways, locked doors, large trunks, crates, and so on, but not items that are frequently used or carried."

So, that seems to rule out the preplanned AoE ward arsenal.

As I've argued before, I think that makes an absolute restriction (it is completely impossible to do this) out of a practical one (if you do this, you're going to run into problems when someone moves the thing). Note that the next paragraph goes into more detail:

"Limitations: Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects, because the area affected becomes magically centered on the spot where the ward is first activated, not on the ward or the object itself. If the warded object is moved, it goes off instantly, affecting that area. Tossing the object away will not change/move the area currently being affected."

How do you toss away the floor? Move the ceiling?

We've had this argument before, of course; I just maintain that Palladium material isn't written as a precisely worded technical manual. The Megaverse runs on vibes.

This has been a sticking point for a long time.

I've always been under the impression that an ACTIVATED AoE ward cannot be carried around.

But, carrying around a pre-formed ward phrase, inactive, would be fine. You then roll it out, activate it, and at that point, it's not moving until such time the magic is gone.

--
GS

[Veknironth]

Well, an activated AoE ward can be carried around, but the effect will remain in whatever location it was when it was activated.

But let's assume that you can carry around a pre-made AoE Ward and then force activate it. That only helps if all of the group members have entrusted the diabolist with their true names so that it doesn't affect them. I find that pollyannaish, but I bet that a lot of groups would have no problem with assuming that Character A trusts Character B implicitly because they're both player characters. Now in that situation, the diabolist could quickly make a field of sleep/death/fire, whatever to ward off an attack. That's even better than spells because it can exclude party members. Just be sure that you don't pull this out in a populated area. The downside is the time it takes the Diabolist to fish out whatever the ward is on, energize it, and then force activate it.

If the group is a little more precious about their true names, then that limits the Diabolist quite a bit. Then you have a field that only the Diabolist can enter safely, and it's stuck in one place. In that situation a regular caster is much better.

Now, one of the things that really boosts the Diabolist as a solo character is if you can bring an AoE Ward with you and then energize/force activate it anywhere you want in a two or three level dwelling and just put everyone to sleep or to death. Then you can leisurely rob the place and loot the bodies. It's also a great tool for assassination. If you have a 3rd level Diabolist, you only need to be within 25 feet of someone to have a bunch of death wards go off. You'd take out all of their guards as well. If you could get above or below someone, you could break out an AoE Ward and kill them without even being seen.

Imagine the blackmail or ransom opportunities for a Diabolist. You slap permanent AoE wards on entrances to businesses or churches and demand payment to remove them (through an intermediary). You could trap wealthy people in their homes and force them to pay you to remove the wards. It would also be great for siege protection. "The Wall is coming down? No worries, I'll just drop this tablet down and anyone who comes within 20 feet of the wall will fall asleep and take damage while sleeping!".

None of these are really great for adventuring, though. But as I said before. If we're talking 2nd Edition, there is nothing that says that a Diabolist can't wear plate mail, take Hand to Hand: Expert and W.P. Chain, and Paired Weapons and be just as good as any fighter who doesn't have W.P. Battle Axe/Paired Weapons/Hand to Hand: Assassin.

-Vek
"But in Second Edition, there's no good reason to play any Man-at-Arms in terms of capablities."

[Hotrod]

For AoE force-activations, there are workarounds to avoid and mitigate team fratricide:

Conditions can help discriminate who gets affected:
-As Vek mentioned, inscribing true names gives immunity. This requires trust, but I don't think a diabolist can do much harm with a true name, at least not directly (a summoner or wizard is a different story).
-If the party has entirely good alignments, then the Good condition can ensure that the AoE doesn't affect them.
-On the flipside, if the party and nearby innocents don't include evil alignments, then the Evil condition can ensure that the AoE only affects evil characters (who tend to be enemies anyway in most encounters).

Some wards intrinsically only affect certain kinds of people:
-AoE mystic energy drain wards can eliminate a foe's advantage without impacting a party at all. If the party has no other magic users, draining magic can be handy against spell-casters. It's also handy against invisible enemies. Other effects are more situational, but still handy.
-Unless your party includes undead, the Undead ward will not affect them, but will affect undead enemies.

Some wards are empowering by nature:
-Knowledge can be handy for non-combat uses (the whole party can now speak, read, and write all languages!).
-Invisibility can be quite handy for the group.

Other wards don't inflict any direct harm:
-Sleep is super-handy, especially if you have some more permanent way to secure a prisoner.
-blind and confusion are useful debuffs that don't directly hurt anyone.
-Despair and Fear are nice ways to scatter a crowd and mitigate a dog-piling scenario.
-Charm is particularly handy in areas where you're worried about affecting innocents/friends. "My new raider friends, please release those child hostages. Ok kids, go run back to the orphanage and lock the door behind you. My raider friends, please relax and unburden yourselves! Toss those weapons over there, strip your clothes and purses off, and go have a swim in the river! My fellow adventurers and local townsfolk, please take the discarded weapons, money, and armor, and secure them in the wagon. Then we'll tie up the raiders." It's kind of like The Voice in Dune.

The diabolist can adjust his/her position and radius of the AoE so it affects enemies, but not friends.
-Cry "Leroy Jenkins," charge in, and force-activate AoEs. Battle-Diabolist FTW!
-Walk to the enemy as if to surrender, then force-activate AoEs. Kinda dishonorable, but viable.
-Coordinate with the party to leap back at a signal you give just before you hit the AoEs. INCOMING!

[Library Ogre]

The diabolist can adjust his/her position and radius of the AoE so it affects enemies, but not friends.
-Cry "Leroy Jenkins," charge in, and force-activate AoEs. Battle-Diabolist FTW!
-Walk to the enemy as if to surrender, then force-activate AoEs. Kinda dishonorable, but viable.
-Coordinate with the party to leap back at a signal you give just before you hit the AoEs. INCOMING!

Play a burrowing race. I got thinking about them playing a kobold diabolist... ultimate in pop-up AoE murder.

[Hotrod]

The diabolist can adjust his/her position and radius of the AoE so it affects enemies, but not friends.
-Cry "Leroy Jenkins," charge in, and force-activate AoEs. Battle-Diabolist FTW!
-Walk to the enemy as if to surrender, then force-activate AoEs. Kinda dishonorable, but viable.
-Coordinate with the party to leap back at a signal you give just before you hit the AoEs. INCOMING!

Play a burrowing race. I got thinking about them playing a kobold diabolist... ultimate in pop-up AoE murder.

I like it! And a flying broom or carpet might do the same from above.

[Library Ogre]

The diabolist can adjust his/her position and radius of the AoE so it affects enemies, but not friends.
-Cry "Leroy Jenkins," charge in, and force-activate AoEs. Battle-Diabolist FTW!
-Walk to the enemy as if to surrender, then force-activate AoEs. Kinda dishonorable, but viable.
-Coordinate with the party to leap back at a signal you give just before you hit the AoEs. INCOMING!

Play a burrowing race. I got thinking about them playing a kobold diabolist... ultimate in pop-up AoE murder.

I like it! And a flying broom or carpet might do the same from above.

"He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates 2 dimensional thinking."

[Hotrod]

The diabolist can adjust his/her position and radius of the AoE so it affects enemies, but not friends.
-Cry "Leroy Jenkins," charge in, and force-activate AoEs. Battle-Diabolist FTW!
-Walk to the enemy as if to surrender, then force-activate AoEs. Kinda dishonorable, but viable.
-Coordinate with the party to leap back at a signal you give just before you hit the AoEs. INCOMING!

Play a burrowing race. I got thinking about them playing a kobold diabolist... ultimate in pop-up AoE murder.

I like it! And a flying broom or carpet might do the same from above.

"He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates 2 dimensional thinking."

Diabolists don't believe in the no-win scenario.
"KHAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!"