Would a rapid-recharge mage be OP?

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Inspired by the Chi-Gung Seng Ren (WB 25 China 2), I thought how convenient it'd be for a mage OCC to share the same concept. The balance of the class would revolve around how limited the overall PPE pool would be, and the rate of recharge.

I'm thinking ~50 PPE would be a good absolute maximum; not able to be overcharged temporarily, not affected by Ley Lines (these limitations could be explained away by fluff text). This would effectively limit the spell usage to level 9 and below. A regen rate of 3-5 PPE per melee round (5 being the maximum) would keep low-level spell spamming down to a reasonable level.

The idea would be to have a mage that's always effective, no matter the party's proximity to Ley Lines or any other power source. The regen rate isn't high enough to be overwhelming in combat, but is high enough to always have an emergency reserve.

Any major objections?

[taalismn]

Nope; I figure there's gotta be individuals and specialized magic classes that recharge faster than normal(and conversely, there would be those like the Ultrovians who recharge SLOWER than average).

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Nope; I figure there's gotta be individuals and specialized magic classes that recharge faster than normal(and conversely, there would be those like the Ultrovians who recharge SLOWER than average).

Are there any official OCCs/RCCs with natural PPE regen that I might be ignorant of? Small boosts to meditation or hourly recovery aren't enough, I'm speaking strictly of per-melee round regen.

The main reason I thought the character's overall PPE pool should be limited, is to avoid reaching the 120 needed to activate Energy Sphere. A mid to high level character could walk around anywhere, far from any line or nexus, yet constantly building up hundreds of spare PPE in the Energy Sphere's bank; and that would just be overkill in my opinion.

[Curbludgeon]

If kept below 60 they can't really recharge a Talisman*, and they're limited in what they might recharge to things like Vajra, Crystal Magic temporary batteries, and TW items. In a game where Talisman access is seen as excessive one might lift a couple of spells from the Dweomer Mage class in Rifter 17. If it's more a blanket ban for PPE receptacles I'd say there wouldn't be an issue with drawing upon a ley line, and I'd still say TW item activation is cool.

*they could still insert three castings of a 3 PPE effect, or 1 10 PPE per 60 PPE.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm speaking strictly of per-melee round regen.

No I do not think such an ability exists for PPE (or even ISP) off hand (I could be wrong). There are method(s) for converting HP/SDC into PPE (Life Source Spell, which also mentions a similar Shaman ability) and of course lots of bio-regeneration rate. There are also examples of races/classes that have psionic abilities to such an extent there is no ISP cost (ISP can be converted to PPE) to use said abilities (like the CK Psi-Sword or the Psi-X aliens and TK assisted movement, etc).

IF such a class/race existed I would think it would work by one of two means based on canon (others w/more extensive Rifts collection might be able to come up with more):
-a "Life Source" warped version of the bio-rengeneration process that substituted PPE (or ISP if doing this for a psychic) for the more normal HP/SDC/MDC
-the individual is somehow simultaneously in two places at once, like being on the physical material plane and the astral plane (where time elapses faster, normal PPE recovery rate is 1hour = 5 PPE per hour of rest and on the astral plane time progress 10,080x faster, IINM that means 42minutes astral travel = 1 minute real world, giving you 2/3 of the 5PPE or 3PPE per minute) or where the spell Time Hole takes one (6hours in = 1 hour out, or 6 minutes for every 1 minute outside). If we also assume slightly higher rengen rates than baseline, it wouldn't be hard to see a 1d4 PPE per melee round (15second) period recovery for PPE.

Regardless I'd probably also put the following additional caveats in place:
1. they can't take advantage of any accelerated healing process (no magic healing, no psionic healing, no bio-reneration, etc). So if they "accidentally" broke an arm, they'd have to heal at the "natural" rate and not pop-off to see Tim the "Enchanter" for healing to get back into form like others.
2. they likely would become hot commodities for the Splugorth for Bio-Wizardry, at least if this was a race (at least if the race didn't have some other mechanism to protect them from being used here)
3. Bio-System and Bio-Wizard limbs don't work for them and it disrupts the mechanism by which they are able to do what they do. So implants like this are more "primitive" (like an "eye patch" or "glasses" to deal with visual decline, or old fashioned hook/peg assisted limbs)

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

IF such a class/race existed I would think it would work by one of two means based on canon (others w/more extensive Rifts collection might be able to come up with more):
-a "Life Source" warped version of the bio-rengeneration process that substituted PPE (or ISP if doing this for a psychic) for the more normal HP/SDC/MDC
-the individual is somehow simultaneously in two places at once, like being on the physical material plane and the astral plane (where time elapses faster, normal PPE recovery rate is 1hour = 5 PPE per hour of rest and on the astral plane time progress 10,080x faster, IINM that means 42minutes astral travel = 1 minute real world, giving you 2/3 of the 5PPE or 3PPE per minute) or where the spell Time Hole takes one (6hours in = 1 hour out, or 6 minutes for every 1 minute outside). If we also assume slightly higher rengen rates than baseline, it wouldn't be hard to see a 1d4 PPE per melee round (15second) period recovery for PPE.

Well, the Chi-Gung generates its own ISP internally, and it's just an OCC. So it doesn't really require a racial mutation or a scientific cause, as much as a philosophical/spiritual dedication to self-awareness.

Even if we take into account the chi nerf to Chinese OCCs outside of China (which I'm not sure should even apply to the Chi-Gung, since its power is consistently called 'internal' and the chi nerf applies to drawing chi from the environment), it would still allow the Chi-Gung to generate 7 ISP per melee round anywhere in the megaverse (the penalty to being outside of China is 50% reduction in Chi/ISP generation, and the Chi-Gung's maximum rate is 15 per melee, so I rounded down). That's still a pretty healthy amount of regen.

Since PPE is a function of stamina, essentially (as it's derived from the Physical Endurance stat), then rapid PPE regeneration could be considered something trainable with a monk-like dedication to physical perfection. The use of magic also has a mental component, which would need to be honed in conjunction with the physical training. But the whole process would be fundamentally different than the way, for example, a Lord Magus might go about learning magic; or the Ley Line Walker or Mystic, where it's mostly intuitive learning.

So if I were to make an OCC with a high PPE regen, it would entail the dedicated (i.e, totally obsessive) training of both mind and body. It might be a logical continuation to have the OCC eschew technology as a result (and also work as a convenient balancing mechanism) and have limited skill selection.

With the physical training focus (that is unusual among most magic practitioners) and the limited overall PPE pool, the end result would be something like a magic warrior monk.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

If kept below 60 they can't really recharge a Talisman*, and they're limited in what they might recharge to things like Vajra, Crystal Magic temporary batteries, and TW items. In a game where Talisman access is seen as excessive one might lift a couple of spells from the Dweomer Mage class in Rifter 17. If it's more a blanket ban for PPE receptacles I'd say there wouldn't be an issue with drawing upon a ley line, and I'd still say TW item activation is cool.

Then there's also Sub-Particle Acceleration, which only costs 20 PPE and allows E-clip recharging. I still don't see that as game breaking, but more of a convenience.

[Library Ogre]

I don't think it would be OP, largely because PPE regen is seldom an issue, in my long-ago experience. Most "standard" wizards have large PPE bases, so are able to last fairly long with combat spells (those that are 6th level and lower, usually), especially if they take a few rounds to gather PPE from the fallen and falling.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I don't think it would be OP, largely because PPE regen is seldom an issue, in my long-ago experience. Most "standard" wizards have large PPE bases, so are able to last fairly long with combat spells (those that are 6th level and lower, usually), especially if they take a few rounds to gather PPE from the fallen and falling.

It'd be a big improvement on the hybrid mages, like Mystic. If you only have ~80-100 PPE, then something like Power Bolt (20 PPE) is prohibitive after 1-2 uses. Even a low-level Lord Magus doesn't have a great PPE pool.

Then you've got spells like Targeted Deflection, which are somewhat wasted on mages with low combat/physical skills; while regular parry bonuses don't apply, at least the 'warrior monk' could learn both of the physical skills that boost PP, unlike most mages. And learn WP: Targeting besides, which is something most mages also wouldn't bother with.

Crushing Fist, Throwing Stones, Orb of Cold, are all fairly cheap spells that would be of much more use in the hands of a high-PP, physically skilled character.

[ShadowLogan]

Well, the Chi-Gung generates its own ISP internally, and it's just an OCC. So it doesn't really require a racial mutation or a scientific cause, as much as a philosophical/spiritual dedication to self-awareness.

ISP and PPE are both internally generated there's nothing really special about that aspect per say. We also know some races don't generate ISP (can't be psychic) and/or have limited PPE (might prevent them from selecting a magic OCC), so I could certainly see some races having the opposite issue (high rate of recovery, as opposed to being unable to at all) and of course some that are enhanced recovery (but not to the extent you're looking at). PPE is also present in ambient form in the environment, so I could see someone able to absorb that ambient PPE for higher PPE regen (IINM don't dragons and CoM do something similar so they don't need to eat/drink?)

I would think having the mechanics worked out based on existing material would also allow one to check to see if it is overpowered or not in ways that you aren't necessarily accounting for. You could also mask these mechanic in the fluff of philosophical/spirit if you want for the front facing aspect to the players. I would also think knowing how the ability works might give adventure/background ideas to be used to add spice to the description for the class/race you are creating making it feel more filled out. It could also offer other "balance" factors or limits beyond just the handwavium approach.

it would still allow the Chi-Gung to generate 7 ISP per melee round

However we know that there is an ISP to PPE exchange ratio of 2 ISP = 1 PPE from a variety of sources (and very few with this reversed IIRC). That means at best you'd be looking at 3-4PPE as opposed to 3-5 PPE by the general conversion ratio. The PPE is a bit higher than using the methods I worked out along the baseline (Life Source method would net 1-2PPE after conversion and such if the Chi-Gung is the basis for ISP, the other Astral/Time anchors also yield about 1 PPE per melee round for simplicity), if a higher recovery rate is used for PPE as present in some classes they would line up even better.

This all leads me to think that as presented in the Original Post, no this is not over powered. Even without the caps you imposed (and I'm not saying those are bad and need to go, they are fine).

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Well, the Chi-Gung generates its own ISP internally, and it's just an OCC. So it doesn't really require a racial mutation or a scientific cause, as much as a philosophical/spiritual dedication to self-awareness.

ISP and PPE are both internally generated there's nothing really special about that aspect per say.

Right, but what I meant was that the Chi-Gung is described as being a fountain of overwhelming chi/ISP. And that state of overflowing chi was only reached accidentally, after years of meditative introspection and isolation from the world at large. So, theoretically, any monastic/isolated existence with a regimented lifestyle could result in the same anomalous reaction--but for PPE instead of ISP; and perhaps more importantly, not limited to a Chinese origin. Such a character could be generated anywhere, just like a Mystic OCC, and wouldn't have the nerf that Chinese characters suffer outside of China.

Speaking of the Mystic. Since that OCC's already an 'accidental' self-realization of mystical ability, the rapid-regen OCC concept could be presented as a variant of the Mystic, like the Grey Seer OCC. A more dedicated, focused, physical-oriented Mystic, with the side-effect of said dedication being the rapid regen. Maybe the OCC could have a choice during creation: to emphasize PPE regen, ISP, or both. If both, then the bonus would be split to something like 2 each per melee.

This all leads me to think that as presented in the Original Post, no this is not over powered. Even without the caps you imposed (and I'm not saying those are bad and need to go, they are fine).

Good, and thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

[Curbludgeon]

I'm not sure to what degree such a class must, or even should be too focused on physical activity. The Chi-Gung gets one of the book-specific martial arts (though not a mystic one), two physical skills, and a few archaic weapon skills, and is otherwise a pretty mundane monk. As a variant of the Mystic presumably with less training than a Mystic Knight or Grey Seer, I'd say a little broader modern skill access and the potential for HtH:MA+Boxing is more than enough. Thinking of it in terms of a Mystic also brings up if the class is meant to be able to learn spells, or must intuit them.

For PPE, I think it might be best to just have a blanket statement preventing the casting of spells above 50 PPE. Given the quick regen rate of the Chi-Gung, I'd say the initial PPE rate could be 1/round increasing from 1st to 5th level, with the maximum PPE/spell increasing by 5 every 2 subsequent levels. Their personal PPE total would be large enough that they can swing at least 1 round of magic-forward casting (PE+1d6+10.+5/lvl?), and while they can't draw from a ley line to "top off their tank" (being something I think tables have differently held opinions on its possibility in the first place) or power rituals, they can use ley line energy to cast something in the same round.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I'm not sure to what degree such a class must, or even should be too focused on physical activity. The Chi-Gung gets one of the book-specific martial arts (though not a mystic one), two physical skills, and a few archaic weapon skills, and is otherwise a pretty mundane monk. As a variant of the Mystic presumably with less training than a Mystic Knight or Grey Seer, I'd say a little broader modern skill access and the potential for HtH:MA+Boxing is more than enough. Thinking of it in terms of a Mystic also brings up if the class is meant to be able to learn spells, or must intuit them.

Chi-Gung OCC has unrestricted access to all physical abilities: the two mandatory physical skill choices from the OCC allow you to choose from all the most powerful physical skills, and the 4 OCC-related choices also give you 'Any' from the physical category, and even the 3 secondary choices allow you to use the same list as the OCC-related. Typically only combat-oriented OCCs give that much access to physical skills. Yes, you could ignore that freedom to emphasize physical skills--but why would you? Especially because one of the Chi-Gung's abilities (Mystic Body) converts SDC into MDC; thus stacking SDC is going to result in a much tankier character when it temporarily converts to MDC. All you're achieving by forgoing physical training is lowering your MDC total.

Secondly, as it pertains to my custom OCC: the logic was that the focus on physical training is a way to build the character's stamina/PE, which in turn unlocks the metaphysical ability to regenerate PPE or ISP much faster than normal. It goes beyond simply being in good physical conditioning. It's got to be obsessive training to set it apart from other OCCs. And also to subvert the 'mages neglect their physical skills' cliche.

For PPE, I think it might be best to just have a blanket statement preventing the casting of spells above 50 PPE.

I was thinking of making the PPE pool PEx2 to start, with a progression of 2 per level. Assuming an average starting PE of 20 (with all those physical skills) would result in a PPE pool of 40, by max level it's still only 70, which still eliminates most level 10 and up spells.

I'd rather avoid hard limits like 50 PPE for the entire duration of the character's career, since it makes progression dull. At least with minimal PPE gain per level, it means that once every 5 levels or so, you'll be able to use spells you couldn't use before.

Given the quick regen rate of the Chi-Gung, I'd say the initial PPE rate could be 1/round increasing from 1st to 5th level, with the maximum PPE/spell increasing by 5 every 2 subsequent levels.

I want to firmly keep the PPE regen under 10 per melee because if it were to reach or exceed 10, it would be the equivalent of standing on a ley line or a nexus at all times, no matter where you are. And I find that imbalanced.

Beyond that, the Chi-Gung is (officially, at least) nerfed outside of China. So we can't compare its maximum of 15 chi/ISP per melee to what would be considered balanced in other parts of Rifts Earth.

By keeping the regen limited to 5 PPE per melee, it's pretty hard for anybody to call that overpowered.

[Curbludgeon]

The last sentence you quoted could have been worded differently. I was saying the PPE/round would cap at 5 (while still allowing access to ley lines), but the maximum PPE/spell increases every 2 levels after 5th, i.e. 55@7, 60@9, 65@11, 70@13, 75@15. Limiting the maximum PPE pool to something akin to the ISP total of the Seng Ren outside China focuses the character into the 1 spell every couple of minutes role, which is something, but doing so while also lacking the kind of personal combat effects the Seng Ren is capable of leaves the character with a dearth of useful actions in a fight. Separately, pegging the maximum available PPE/spell allows species which grant additional PPE like Elves to more heavily modify the utility of the class than it might otherwise.

It is worthy noting just how limited the skill selection and number the Seng Ren gets, even in comparison to a Mystic. It's reminiscent of Mystic China's PCCs, who are even more hamstrung.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

The last sentence you quoted could have been worded differently. I was saying the PPE/round would cap at 5 (while still allowing access to ley lines), but the maximum PPE/spell increases every 2 levels after 5th, i.e. 55@7, 60@9, 65@11, 70@13, 75@15. Limiting the maximum PPE pool to something akin to the ISP total of the Seng Ren outside China focuses the character into the 1 spell every couple of minutes role, which is something, but doing so while also lacking the kind of personal combat effects the Seng Ren is capable of leaves the character with a dearth of useful actions in a fight. Separately, pegging the maximum available PPE/spell allows species which grant additional PPE like Elves to more heavily modify the utility of the class than it might otherwise.

It is worthy noting just how limited the skill selection and number the Seng Ren gets, even in comparison to a Mystic. It's reminiscent of Mystic China's PCCs, who are even more hamstrung.

Ah, I misunderstood. I agree with what you're saying now, of course. I guess allowing ley line boosting wouldn't be excessive, since the Mystic Knight already gets a functionally larger bonus anyway.

I was thinking that to compensate for the niche role my OCC would fill, it should be given better starting spell selection than a standard Mystic. The same 8 choices at level 1, but from levels 1-8. And then 4 choices at level 2. One choice per level thereafter, same 1-8 limit, until it reached levels 9 and 10, and which point it could pick from those levels too. After that it doesn't matter, since almost every spell is over 100 PPE and out of reach. It's more front-loaded than the basic Mystic, with worse progression to balance it out.

This distinction would separate it from the other combat-oriented mages, chiefly the Battle Magus and the Mystic Knight, both of whom are generally stronger OCCs, but also more specialized into strictly combat spells. I think the freedom to choose from a larger spell pool, along with the rapid regen, would make it a good alternative.

On the psionic side of things, I would eliminate the Mystic's starting selection, and instead have 2 choices from each category at level 1, aside from super; it would never get super. Again, this is to allow the original Mystic to have some advantages so it wouldn't be rendered obsolete. Beyond that, I'd give it a steadier progression of 1 choice from the 3 psionic categories, every other level. So it gains access to physical psionics, but loses access to supers.