Too Few skills

[Blackwater Sniper]

I think the number of skill slots a character has available to them is woefully too few.

To prove a point, I did a fast look at the skills I had in my life up to getting out of the Army (30ish years ago). I could easily double the number if I really sat down and included college and experience from my actual careers.

Athletics
Basic Computer (grew up with a Radio Shack TRS-80 running MS-DOS and now know just enough to be dangerous)
Bicycling
Camouflage
Debate (lettered in HS, I was a nerd)
Driving: Car (I’ve been driving with a farm permit since 1984)
Driving: Semi-Truck (one of my MOSs was 88M)
Driving: Farm Equipment (came with growing up on a farm)
First Aid
History
HtH: Basic (these days probably couldn’t throw a punch without breaking my wrist)
Land Navigation (very low percentage; good with shooting azimuth, but everything else sucks)
Lore: Military (most of my personal knowledge is out of date)
Lore: Pilot Airplane (I grew up with a plane in my back yard (Piper Tri-Pacer, tail number N2224A), we also had a grass runway in an adjacent field)
Lore: Religion (grew up “in the church” but haven’t attended in years)
Map Reading
Marksmanship: Pistol
Marksmanship: Rifle
Marksmanship: Shotgun
Military etiquette
Military Parachuting
Play Musical Instrument: Trombone (usually last chair, caused me to not care about band)
Radio: Basic
Research
Running
Swimming
Weightlifting (not much in the past few years, but I know the basics)
Writing (mostly SOPs for work, but also fiction as a hobby)

I don’t think the initial outlay of skills should be increased, but characters should be able learn additional skills beyond waiting for certain target levels.

To teach a skill, a Player/NPC must have a high Charisma and applicable skill percentage of at least 75% (you have to know what you are talking about).
To learn a skill, Regular skills are easy to learn, just a willingness to learn, but the player must possess an IQ of 12 and above for Advanced skills.

Of course, the GM has the ultimate say in which skills a player may learn. It should be an adventure, not just waiting for your next level and picking one from the book. Why not set up the character with a multistep adventure to gain the knowledge?

Spells could be treated similarly; find someone who is willing/able to train you and be sent on a quest.

Why Charisma for teaching and not Intelligence?

The best Teachers and Professors I’ve ever had possessed the ability to reach the students more than what was in the book. I had very Intelligent teachers who put us to sleep because they taught the book. I can read the book myself, but I’ll only come out with what the author wanted me to learn, no experience to back up the lessons.

I had one prof in particular, Intro to Accounting, who made me want to change my Major to Accounting….and I suck at math. He knew how to make Accounting come alive, gave us a reason to like accounting more than being able to justify our back accounts.

[Grazzik]

I thoroughly agree with you. Being on my third career, I once tried to stat myself up and had to multi class a couple of times.

That said, in my games, I make it easy for PCs to get skills they need. Leveling up takes so long, I see no harm of giving them secondary skills that won't unbalance the game since they often don't top out any higher than 60%.

I really like the idea of MA playing a role in teaching.

My house rules for learning are:

Cost of Education Rule (per Secondary skill)
Wilderness Scholar - 250K cr
Small School - 4K cr (-5% penalty)
Academy / College / University - 12K cr
Advanced University - 32K cr (2x study time, +5% bonus)
Exclusive University - 120K cr (2x study time, +10% bonus)
Max 3 skills can be studied consecutively
Base level Secondary skill can be learned over 312 hours of study
(intense: 13 wk @ 24hr/wk [-10% penalty], formal: 39 wk @ 8hr/wk)
Manuals give base skill level while using the manual, +/- depending on quality and situational modifiers, literacy required

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I think the number of skill slots a character has available to them is woefully too few.

Depends on the setting, I think. In Rifts Earth, formal education is supposed to be a rarity unless you take one of the OCCs that gives some educational background (like the Rogue Scientist, which offers potentially very high-level types of knowledge along with class-specific skills).

The limitations of Rifts education for mages is one of the reasons I've strongly considered importing the Mystic Study OCC from Heroes Unlimited; if you have a 4 year university education (not necessarily with a completed degree) you can get a much better mix of skills that can all be pertinent to Rifts Earth (which I know is metagaming, but whatever). For instance, taking a broader range of physical skills than most mage OCCs allow in Rifts, along with a Wilderness Survival skill group and an ancient weapon group of WPs will give you a well-rounded, physically adept mage. Or you could go another route and get the military specialist package in HU, which can grant a lot of Rogue/Espionage choices.

The only skill penalties that apply to a character imported from HU Earth to Rifts Earth are technological, so all you need to do is avoid getting tech skills in the HU programs, and everything else will function equally in both settings.

[Slider65]

I agree with all of the above. People don't stop learning ever. If I was going by the Palladium Rules, my college education after leaving the service would have accomplished nothing, and I certainly would not have picked up any of the skills I was taught there, as they are not on "the list" of approved skills based on my military MOS/Rate or O.C.C. by the Rifts rules. And because no one ever, in the history of the world, ever picked up a second career after leaving the military I guess I am just unable to pick up the second O.C.C. that reflects that. /s.

But seriously, one of the things I have always let my players do it further their education outside of their O.C.C. either by going to a college, or a trade school, or whatever. It takes time, but by using the education skill tables in say, HU, for career paths my players have an actual way to spend their (begrudgingly) hard earned credits to do something besides buy new toys to make my life as GM difficult, or the never ending bar crawls that appear to be the major credit sink for many. And it even allows me, the GM, to have time pass in a non arbitrary fashion, so if I need to say, skip a few years here or there, or the players just decide to take a break from being shot at as their main source of entertainment, they can do something meaningful while the time passes. They can even <gasp> do both! Not sure how many people in literature, or comic books, or TV are full time students while still finding time to juggle school with real life and stick to getting shot at on the weekends. Sometimes even successfully. "C'mon guys, I know we need to clear up this mystery and foil the bad guys plans, but I have a term paper due Monday!"

As a for instance, my party of sometimes reluctant targets, I mean Players, found themselves in the 3 Galaxies and in possession of a slightly stolen starship that not a one of them had the skills to use. And rather than hire a Very Expensive crew to do it all for them, they decided to take a break for a bit and do such things as go through a piloting school for one, an engineering course or three for another, and another one even decided to take a college course in magical lore of all things at the Warlock University on Center to expand her knowledge into space magic that might prove useful. And I was able to tell them sure, two or 3 years later, you all have learned the basic skills for each of your chosen courses, again using the college courses from HU as a guide. All it took was time, and a lot of credits, and we could still do the occasional odd job on the side to keep things interesting.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I agree with all of the above. People don't stop learning ever. If I was going by the Palladium Rules, my college education after leaving the service would have accomplished nothing, and I certainly would not have picked up any of the skills I was taught there, as they are not on "the list" of approved skills based on my military MOS/Rate or O.C.C. by the Rifts rules. And because no one ever, in the history of the world, ever picked up a second career after leaving the military I guess I am just unable to pick up the second O.C.C. that reflects that. /s.

Aren't all level 1 characters assumed to be in their early 20s? I mean that age is associated generally with character level. As I get older I don't really like the idea of playing a 20 year old, as I can't relate anymore to my younger self or young people in general, but I still understand the conceptual necessity of it. Otherwise we have to assume that a thirty-something character starting at level 1 with limited skills simply sat around and didn't do anything for most of their life. Which is totally possible in the real world, but not likely in an RPG adventure setting.

There is a legit by-the-book path to gaining a new set of skills, and that's just multiclassing, right? So, somebody who was in the military for 4 years from age 18 to 22, would have, for example, the Merc Soldier OCC from Rifts with a specific MOS. Say you reached level 4 in those (in-game, not time played) years, and then that progress freezes when you leave service and do something new with a second career (OCC). By the age of 30 you could, in theory, have 3 OCCs each at level 4, roughly reflecting 1 year of player character time spent gaining each level from age 18-30.

As long as you don't do anything to really complicate things (become a Juicer, detox, become a Crazy, become a Ley Line Walker, etc), bouncing from regular, skill-based OCCs to other skill-based OCCs shouldn't be that difficult in game terms.

[Slider65]

I agree with all of the above. People don't stop learning ever. If I was going by the Palladium Rules, my college education after leaving the service would have accomplished nothing, and I certainly would not have picked up any of the skills I was taught there, as they are not on "the list" of approved skills based on my military MOS/Rate or O.C.C. by the Rifts rules. And because no one ever, in the history of the world, ever picked up a second career after leaving the military I guess I am just unable to pick up the second O.C.C. that reflects that. /s.

Aren't all level 1 characters assumed to be in their early 20s? I mean that age is associated generally with character level. As I get older I don't really like the idea of playing a 20 year old, as I can't relate anymore to my younger self or young people in general, but I still understand the conceptual necessity of it. Otherwise we have to assume that a thirty-something character starting at level 1 with limited skills simply sat around and didn't do anything for most of their life. Which is totally possible in the real world, but not likely in an RPG adventure setting.

There is a legit by-the-book path to gaining a new set of skills, and that's just multiclassing, right? So, somebody who was in the military for 4 years from age 18 to 22, would have, for example, the Merc Soldier OCC from Rifts with a specific MOS. Say you reached level 4 in those (in-game, not time played) years, and then that progress freezes when you leave service and do something new with a second career (OCC). By the age of 30 you could, in theory, have 3 OCCs each at level 4, roughly reflecting 1 year of player character time spent gaining each level from age 18-30.

As long as you don't do anything to really complicate things (become a Juicer, detox, become a Crazy, become a Ley Line Walker, etc), bouncing from regular, skill-based OCCs to other skill-based OCCs shouldn't be that difficult in game terms.

And if RAW allowed you to get a second O.C.C. I would completely agree with you. But it doesn't. Do most people house rule it and say you can? Yup I would imagine they do. But that is an entirely different conversation.

[Grazzik]

The level to start at really depends on lived experience. Yes, a 18yo would be level 1, but so could be a mid-20 something who really accomplished nothing or lived a cloistered life. The average person, I believe, never gets past level 3 or 4 since they do the same thing day in, day out. In stable parts of the world, like Australia or the heart of NGR territory, I'd imagine military OCCs may not crest higher than level 5 or 6. In less stable parts of the world, maximum levels may in fact be lower on average due to attrition - life's dangerous in Rifts! So, to get to learn sufficient skills to be a meaningful heroic character (whether a specialist or generalist) needs that boost from a number of sources:

1) multi-classing if the GM allows
2) the "Desire to Learn" knack from WB13 (take twice as a normal human and that is six extra secondaries by level 6)
3) extra-curricular learning of secondary skills (using house rules)
4) on-the-job training for specific mission-critical skills (usually I apply a heavy penalty due to non-comprehensive training)
5) Advanced Training from HoH
6) Buy a pocket AI or get an AI-enabled cybernetic implant that can guide you like a top-quality interactive manual

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

And if RAW allowed you to get a second O.C.C. I would completely agree with you. But it doesn't. Do most people house rule it and say you can? Yup I would imagine they do. But that is an entirely different conversation.

But doesn't Rifts allow second OCCs? Super Spy OCC is effectively a multi-class, as is a detoxed Juicer. I know those aren't the best examples, but I'm saying there are precedents. I also know that Palladium generally frowns on the concept of multiclassing more than D&D, but is it explicitly disallowed anywhere?

[ShadowLogan]

I don’t think the initial outlay of skills should be increased, but characters should be able learn additional skills beyond waiting for certain target levels.

I'd say your list example is likely missing some skills to, like Literacy, Language, Math: Basic, and some level of science skill given high school graduation requirements (which may vary). I'd also say that some of the skills listed might actually be considered part of existing skills or don't have an actual skill (like Debate).

The Rogue Scholar OCC in RUE does have the special ability of "Storyteller & Teacher" which allows one to grant (secondary) skills after a given amount of time. Though how the ability works isn't clear.

The Conversion Book also grants imported characters from other lines access to new skills regardless of level after the spend enough time in the world of Rifts. The old 1E Robotech also had rules for granting new skills when moving characters forward in time from older Eras (found in BK5), and IIRC even the Zentreadi could get "new" skills w/o leveling up (Main Book or BK3). Heroes Unlimited also has rules for this.

It's probably also important to remember that it takes time to learn new skills, which seems to be inferred in the level advancement to have been going on behind the scenes IMHO so to speak (you don't suddenly know how to Pick Locks just because you leveled up and took the skill, you likely have been studying in spare time and have "reached" the minimum proficiency when you take the skill).

But doesn't Rifts allow second OCCs? Super Spy OCC is effectively a multi-class, as is a detoxed Juicer. I know those aren't the best examples, but I'm saying there are precedents. I also know that Palladium generally frowns on the concept of multiclassing more than D&D, but is it explicitly disallowed anywhere?

Palladium doesn't really allow multi-classing, even in your examples given wouldn't be considered multi-classed. Palladium does allow one to change OCCs that follow the basic approach where the old OCC is frozen forever skill wise (unless a skill is taken again in the new OCC and even then it doesn't advance until the new OCC reaches the same level as the old one).

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Palladium doesn't really allow multi-classing, even in your examples given wouldn't be considered multi-classed. Palladium does allow one to change OCCs that follow the basic approach where the old OCC is frozen forever skill wise (unless a skill is taken again in the new OCC and even then it doesn't advance until the new OCC reaches the same level as the old one).

As I said, I've never seen a rule listed that explicitly bans multiclassing. Yes, it's clearly discouraged by the rules, but not outright disallowed.

While the freezing of skills is problematic, it's not that big a deal. You could, in theory, have multiple OCCs each frozen at level 4, and still use the skills from each. While you'd never get high percentages for any skill, you'd still have a very broad range of skills at around 40-60% depending on how large the OCC starting bonuses were.

In principle it's not far removed from what the OP discussed. He was in the military 30 years ago; have any of the skills he learned back then improved? Probably not--unless they coincide with whatever he's still doing or did more recently in his day-to-day employment. That's essentially the same as skills freezing from no-longer-active OCCs.

You could make a character who was a merc soldier from 18-22, then became a wilderness scout from 23-27, then while out in the hinterlands had a spiritual awakening and became a mystic relatively late in life.

Sure it'd be a nightmare to fit into a single character sheet, but it's still doable.

[ShadowLogan]

As I said, I've never seen a rule listed that explicitly bans multiclassing. Yes, it's clearly discouraged by the rules, but not outright disallowed.

I've never seen a rule(s) for Multi-classing only Changing OCCs. And I can point to various examples of Changing OCCs Rules in various Megaverse books (1E RT, Rifts scattered for specific cases, PF2E, the old website cutting room floor).

While I can find plenty of examples of NPCs with multiple OCCs (across various lines), those examples seem to be examples of changing OCCs and not Multi-Classing (like in D&D). Now some OCCs and RCCs allow combinations of existing classes, but the result isn't true multi-classing given it still functions w/n a single class (for XP purposes) which wouldn't make it multi-classing.

On the main website they have this to say on the Cutting Room Floor about Dual OCCs for the PF line, and this is pretty much how it works in the known Rifts examples:
https://palladiumbooks.com/questions-re ... -dual-occs

[Library Ogre]

My general opinion is not that there are too few skill selections, but too narrow of skills.

Consider "Moving fluidly in unconventional ways". In PF, that's three different skills... Gymnastics, Acrobatics, and Tumbling. And, yes, these are very different disciplines... but Tae Kwon Do, Juijitsu, and Capoeria are all bundled into "Hand to Hand: Martial Arts" in most places other than Ninjas and Superspies. RMB had skills for hover vehicles and motor cycles... but then a skill for "hover cycles" was introduced, throwing into question what you were supposed to use for hover cycles in the first place.

I had a few ideas to fiddle with the skill system and combat styles (Freyr's balls, they're almost a decade old), one of them (Number 9) being reducing the number of skills DRASTICALLY.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

As I said, I've never seen a rule listed that explicitly bans multiclassing. Yes, it's clearly discouraged by the rules, but not outright disallowed.

I've never seen a rule(s) for Multi-classing only Changing OCCs. And I can point to various examples of Changing OCCs Rules in various Megaverse books (1E RT, Rifts scattered for specific cases, PF2E, the old website cutting room floor).

While I can find plenty of examples of NPCs with multiple OCCs (across various lines), those examples seem to be examples of changing OCCs and not Multi-Classing (like in D&D). Now some OCCs and RCCs allow combinations of existing classes, but the result isn't true multi-classing given it still functions w/n a single class (for XP purposes) which wouldn't make it multi-classing.

Right, I understand that we're not truly multiclassing in Rifts; but my point is that by switching OCCs the end result is functionally similar to multiclassing.

Not only that, but it's much easier to reach level 4 in terms of XP needed, than it is to reach level 12. So it wouldn't require much play time to have 3 OCCs up to level 4. The only thing you'd really be missing out on is advancing hand to hand combat levels.

[Grazzik]

I think we can all agree that while (Multiclassing / Changing OCC / whatever we want to call it) is not expressly canon in Rifts - it is a PFRPG mechanic after all - it does exist RAW for very specific instances (becoming a Borg, City Rats growing up, etc.)... and yet, whether canon or not, I'd bet dollars to donuts most of us do it anyway for one reason or other. So, it doesn't really matter if it is canon, just that it is an expedient to getting the skills you want for your PC that without proper oversight can be easily abused.

My general opinion is not that there are too few skill selections, but too narrow of skills.

Some folks may like a crunchy game and so skills need to be a more expansive set of skills. Others may prefer a more streamlined game and a reduction of skills may be in order. I'd like to see a consistent megaversal system where the skills are tiered so you could choose to roll skills up to big buckets and play fast and loose, or deep dive to narrow specific skills depending on game play you want. Having built such models for real world use, I know it could be done but it would be a sourcebook in its own right.

In the absence of such a model, it is really up to the GM to cobble together a compromise of different RAW and/or house rules to meet the needs of their play group.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I think we can all agree that while (Multiclassing / Changing OCC / whatever we want to call it) is not expressly canon in Rifts - it is a PFRPG mechanic after all - it does exist RAW for very specific instances (becoming a Borg, City Rats growing up, etc.)... and yet, whether canon or not, I'd bet dollars to donuts most of us do it anyway for one reason or other. So, it doesn't really matter if it is canon, just that it is an expedient to getting the skills you want for your PC that without proper oversight can be easily abused.

Personally, I don't see a great need for stacking OCCs. There are a few dedicated skill monkey classes out there (Rogue Scientist, Operator, most special forces OCCs, neural AI player characters, etc), and then there's magic/psionic classes that can perform a lot of different 'skill-like' actions by using magic or psionics. For instance, you can turn your basic everyday Mind Melter into the ultimate schmoozer/trickster using mostly psionics; no need to pick all the Rogue skills. Or you could turn a lowly Mystic into a hacking expert with Super Telemechanics at level 4, along with some magic spells that fit into the tech theme (Energy Disruption, etc).

Using multiple OCCs isn't something I'd bother doing, just for the extra paperwork alone; but I still think others should be allowed to do so, if they're of a masochistic bent.

My general opinion is not that there are too few skill selections, but too narrow of skills.

Some folks may like a crunchy game and so skills need to be a more expansive set of skills. Others may prefer a more streamlined game and a reduction of skills may be in order.

I like the option of drowning in superfluous skills. But a simplified alternative could exist and not harm anything. Taking Library Ogre's idea and simplifying it even further, I'd streamline the system to make entire skill categories easy, medium, or hard. Obviously there'd be glaringly illogical exceptions (basic math being considered hard, etc), but who cares when expedience is the goal. For example, everything under Domestic, Physical, Communications, etc, would be easy. Easy skills start at 25% and gain 5% per level. Medium difficulty skills would be everything under the Technical, Piloting, Wilderness, etc, categories; those would start at 30% and gain 4% per level. And finally, hard skills would start at 35% and gain 3% per level; this would be the entire Science category, along with Medical and Electrical, etc.

My logic in having the difficulty threshold increase the base starting percentage, is simply a matter of balance. Make harder skills progress slower, with a cap that falls short of 100% without a substantial OCC bonus to make up the difference. Only easy skills can be raised from base proficiency to 100% (or 98) without an OCC-related bonus.

[ShadowLogan]

I think we can all agree that while (Multiclassing / Changing OCC / whatever we want to call it) is not expressly canon in Rifts - it is a PFRPG mechanic after all - it does exist RAW for very specific instances (becoming a Borg, City Rats growing up, etc.)... and yet, whether canon or not, I'd bet dollars to donuts most of us do it anyway for one reason or other. So, it doesn't really matter if it is canon, just that it is an expedient to getting the skills you want for your PC that without proper oversight can be easily abused.

One thing to note about the City Rat "growing up" phase found in the Bionics Source Book is that they can actually lose skill proficiency over time (pg17, Step1 & 3) and similarly mentioned again in the switch to Bionic OCC section later in the book (pg63) and the old skills are now frozen (unless re-selected). Which is IINM unique compared to the Borg/Juicer/T-man specific cases that exist in other Rifts books (even SB1o's FAQ pg9).

If the Bionic SB examples are taken as a new standard for Changing OCCs, at least for Rifts, then it puts some negatives on the idea of changing classes in order to gain extra skills that previous rule examples would seem to suggest would allow.

Right, I understand that we're not truly multiclassing in Rifts; but my point is that by switching OCCs the end result is functionally similar to multiclassing.

I would disagree that it is functionally similar to multi-classing like in other game lines like AD&D2E or the D20 system that I am familiar with. In those other systems you can choose to switch back and forth in terms of when and where the earned XP are delivered, not to mention they have a different method of skill development (atleast D20) that is radically different than Palladium allows. Trying to equate the two different approaches under a single term can lead to miscommunication/expectations with newer players coming over to PB from those systems.

Not only that, but it's much easier to reach level 4 in terms of XP needed, than it is to reach level 12. So it wouldn't require much play time to have 3 OCCs up to level 4. The only thing you'd really be missing out on is advancing hand to hand combat levels.

Depending on what set of Palladium OCC changing Rules you use though, you start out at Level ZERO and are required to earn multiple levels (enough to qualify for Level 2 IIRC) just to reach Level 1. And then you need the additional XP to pull even between the Old OCC and the New OCC. And that assumes the Bionic SB rules aren't in play either, which can put a damper on some skills given enough in game time (and time should be a factor also in learning a new oCC, unless it is an "upgrade" OCC like in the old 1E Robotech line going from RDF to REF versions of the same OCC).

Then depending on the approach again there is the switching bit found in Bionic SB mentioned above that might put a serious damper on the effectiveness of this approach to get extra skills.

I think it is also important to remember that not all "real life skills" have equivalent in the Palladium Skill system, and skills end up grouped together. If lack of skill slots is an issue, it might be easier to just do universal starting package of skills (either predefined skills OR # of skills in Other/Related and Secondary that get added onto the OCC/RCC's starting number).

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Depending on what set of Palladium OCC changing Rules you use though, you start out at Level ZERO and are required to earn multiple levels (enough to qualify for Level 2 IIRC) just to reach Level 1. And then you need the additional XP to pull even between the Old OCC and the New OCC.

Correct, but even with the additional XP waste between old and new OCCs, levelling up 3 different OCCs to level 4 would still require far less XP (about 100k less) versus hitting level 12 in one.

The only OCCs that really need to be high level to be powerful are mages and combat-oriented characters who need the bonuses from hand to hand levels. If you wanted to make a pure skill-based character, you would not be losing much by remaining stunted at level 4 (or whatever) for two of your three OCCs. You'd have high failure rates, but that's the nature of being a jack of all trades.

I think it is also important to remember that not all "real life skills" have equivalent in the Palladium Skill system, and skills end up grouped together. If lack of skill slots is an issue, it might be easier to just do universal starting package of skills (either predefined skills OR # of skills in Other/Related and Secondary that get added onto the OCC/RCC's starting number).

I find the educational system from HU2 to be the easiest to work with. Instead of importing HU characters into Rifts, it'd be easier to just say your Rifts character had a wealthy upbringing and had access to traditional education. Take the HU system and fill it with Rifts' expanded skill selection, boom, done. At maximum (PhD) levels, the HU system offers 4 skill programs at +30% (which is extremely generous), plus 10(!) secondary skills. That offers plenty of flexibility to make exactly the kind of skill loadout you want. You can sacrifice a few secondary skills to learn the common hand to hand skills up to/including Assassin.

You could use the HU education system to completely replace the skills offered by any given OCC; only class-based specialty skills would be unchanged (like the Operator's, Vagabond's 'eyeball a fella', etc).