Hidden Circle Magic Options?

[ShadowLogan]

Palladium Fantasy Main RPG (2E) pg182 (underline emphasis mine, bold/italics emphasis in text) has a passage that reads: "Summoning & Creation magic can be spell, ritual, or circle but almost always requires a formal ceremony and the making of a circle to summon something or to create a being such as a zombie or golem."

The above has me wondering: Does this mean that a Summoner in PF could lean Wizard Magic Rituals that involve circles that aren't duplicated in their (available) listing to perform:
-the Create Zombie Ritual (pg212-3, Level 12) which in the description does state it uses a Circle?
-the Create Golem Ritual (pg213-4, Level 13) even though it states Pentagram and not Circle? Does this mean the Pentagram in Wizard Invocations are enclosed in a circle? Or Pentagram Rituals can be converted to Circles by some means?
-Summon & Control Entity (pg213, 250 PPE) and/or Summon Greater Familiar (pg216, 580 PPE) both/either might be very attractive to a Summoner given it doesn't require a Battle of Wills IF it does involve a Circle, though here other Circles can stand in (PPE Cheaper) though it isn't stated in either that a Circle is required

What about Wizard "Circles" like (Cast as spell/Ritual or as physical requirement Circle):
-Circle of Flame (pg196, technically nothing indicates it requires physical components, but being a "Circle" Magic of a type could they learn/cast it)
-Circle of Concealment (pg200, technically it isn't clear if you need physical components), though this might be covered by an existing Circle IINM (its just under a new name)

Wizard Summoning & Creation Listing (PF2E) that I found, but not mentioned above that seemed to already be covered
-Protection Circle: Simple (pg207-8, 45 PPE) and Protection Circle: Superior (pg214, 250 PPE) are already in their inventory, granted here the Wizard has a higher PPE cost (not at the normal non-Specialist Penalty either)
-Summon & Control Canines (pg208, 50 PPE), Summon & Control Rodents (pg210, 70 PPE) and Summon & Control Animals (pg211-2, 125 PPE) already exist under one Circle (and PPE Cost is cheaper for them to)
-Summon & Control Shadow Beast (pg210, 140 PPE), might already be covered by an existing Circle (that would be cheaper)
-Summon & Control Fog (pg212, 140 PPE) and Summon & Control Storm (pg214-5, 260 PPE) are covered by Summon Elemental Forces Circle (which is PPE cheaper, and gives access to additional spells on top of it)

Though the above list includes stuff that could be duplicated by an existing generic Circle, I have to wonder if there aren't more specialized version of those Circles given the Wizard invocations (ex S&C Canines or Rodents could be covered by Circle of Summon Animal) that would be PPE Cheaper (after all generally the Wizard pays x2 the PPE for Spell/Rituals over a specialist like a Necromancer, Warlock, or Conjurer). If the Wizard has to pay the usual x2 cost due to their generalized nature, S&C: Canines would be 25 PPE to cast or S&C: Rodents would be 35 for a specialist Circle Magic User (like a Summoner) which would be cheaper than the 60PPE for using the generic Circle of Summon Animal.

[Library Ogre]

I would use such things as the basis for circle magic, not having the summoner learn those spells, per se. So, there would be a Create Golem power circle, and it would look a lot like the Create Golem spell, at least in results.

[Curbludgeon]

I'm inclined to gloss over the circle/pentagram distinction, particularly after reading the Book of Magic's Summon Canines description attributing the separation of such to Chinese Geomancers. Just throw a circle around a pentagram and call it a pentacle.

I could see reverse engineering some rituals, and possibly flavor some-to-all of them as being rediscovered lost circles. Converting spells which just have the word circle in the name feels a bit silly, which ain't to say I'm entirely opposed.

Starting with BoM, and acknowledging there are a great many unmentioned spells with a circular or spherical area of effect.

Elemental
Circle of Rain
Circle of Cold
Circle of Flame

Invocation
those aforementioned
Circle of Travel
Summon Ally
Vicious Circle

Nature (check out the durations)
Circle Dance
Protective Magic Ring

The costly effects don't seem all that out of keeping with the Summoner. Maybe Circle of Cold and other effects which work at a distance could be the sort of thing available from a homebrew variant Power Circle.

[ShadowLogan]

I would use such things as the basis for circle magic, not having the summoner learn those spells, per se. So, there would be a Create Golem power circle, and it would look a lot like the Create Golem spell, at least in results.

That is what I am thinking along. They can't learn the Spell Invocation, but would have to learn the Ritual Invocation and said Invocation would have to include physical construction of a circle for it to be considered an existing "Hidden" option for Circle Magic at a 1:1 import.

Though if I was going for a non-1:1 import, I could see a Circle Magic Golem not inducing the SDC cost but linking it to the Circle's life (ie destroy the circle and it stops existing) either as a static feature or an option (pay the SDC cost and it is no longer tied to the Circle's life).

Converting spells which just have the word circle in the name feels a bit silly

I agree, that is why I focused more on looking for Magic Invocations that involved the actual construction of a circle in their use, and there are several just in the Main Book (Megaversally even more). This way everything is really there to establish it as being part of Circle Magic. And given the quoted text even if it isn't mentioned it would seem that "Circle" construction might be involved with some types of Invocation Magic (Summoning) even if it isn't stated.

Though as I said some Invocation options already might fall under some of the other generic circles, but the Invocations would seem to indicate there could be "targeted" Circles (Canines or Rodents instead of the generic Animal) that could be cheaper to cast (PPE wise) and easier to setup (if the invocation doesn't detail the components in casting, it could be very flexible). In some ways they are also more potent potentially (Canine/Rodents summon multiple, where the generic Animal is just one).

[thorr-kan]

I've often felt certain spells should only be available as rituals, not invocations: protection circles, summoning, transformation.

So any of those would probably be good examples for conversions.

[Curbludgeon]

Several of the spells I listed (Circle of Travel, Summon Ally, Protective Magic Ring) involve circle construction. Lifeward does as well, but the circle being so simple and applied directly to a person makes me think it would be better adapted as a diabolism ward.

[GoliathReturns]

I consider them two very separate things, as the circle for the spell rituals is more of "component", and very different than the "circle magic" that summoners do.

If a summoner player wanted to have a circle that mirrors on of the spells, I'd go through the process of designing a circle with them, or tweaking an already existing one.

--
GS

[kiralon]

I consider them two very separate things, as the circle for the spell rituals is more of "component", and very different than the "circle magic" that summoners do.

If a summoner player wanted to have a circle that mirrors on of the spells, I'd go through the process of designing a circle with them, or tweaking an already existing one.

--
GS

This is the way i would do it, circle magic is not the same as a ritual that uses a circle.

[ShadowLogan]

Scarecrows are believed to be created by a Summoner and/or Diabolist given their history in their descriptions (which means Circle Magic, Wards, or a combination of them), though no one is sure if it was summoned or created (process was lost).

Which would seem to indicate Circle Magic could have been involved in their creation (then again it could also be purely a Diabolist thing or require a combination of said magic). If that is so, then a Golem or Zombie isn't to far fetched either. A scarecrow is basically in a manner of speaking a "Super" Golem (just like a Zombie is a "Super" animated dead example).

[GoliathReturns]

Scarecrows are believed to be created by a Summoner and/or Diabolist given their history in their descriptions (which means Circle Magic, Wards, or a combination of them), though no one is sure if it was summoned or created (process was lost).

Which would seem to indicate Circle Magic could have been involved in their creation (then again it could also be purely a Diabolist thing or require a combination of said magic). If that is so, then a Golem or Zombie isn't to far fetched either. A scarecrow is basically in a manner of speaking a "Super" Golem (just like a Zombie is a "Super" animated dead example).

I'd put this as a top-shelf level of "lost magic".

Scarecrows are sentient beings, and there's none of the magic that actively creates intelligent, sentient life. There's a few spells that create a semblance, but nothing even close to what would be needed for a Scarecrow. That means none of the modern diabolists or summoners would even have a basic foundation of the "right kinds of magic" to build on for research.

As such, I'd put it out of bounds for everyone except the near-deific power levels

The only feasible way I'd see something like this working would be to physically make a body, using wards to keep it whole and powered, and then using summoning to conjure an intelligence (possibly an intelligence fragment, like when a VI creates a vampire. Possibly using an Alien Intelligence? ), and using more wards to anchor it. Which wouldn't work with the wards and circles known, so new/lost ones would be essential.

--
GS

[ShadowLogan]

I only bring up the Scarecrow because of its history description connecting it to a rogue Summoner/Diabolist, so there is a 1 in 3 chance it was either purely Diabolism or Circle Magic or both.

I agree that Scarecrow creation is a lost magic, and reads like it was a reproducible experiment (given so many exist, unless they can actually reproduce...) so should be if someone(s) find the key. The Scarecrow is also far more intelligent than the various "robot" constructs one can point to, but it is also far more independent it seems (unless that is a result of the S/D's last orders before they died).

As for origins: I could see it being from a Summoner who was experimenting with a variation(s) of the Animate & Control Dead Power Cricle that did not strike of necromancy (ie no army of dead bodies). That might explain the Scarcrow population, given its ability to mass produce vs other methods of magical constructs (Golem, Zombie, Mummie, those Warlock Earth/Air spell chains only produce x1 per casting). If they where a Diabolist to, they could have introduced "foreign" Ward/Runes into the process (I haven't checked, but does Circle Magic use all known Ward/Runes or just select few in terms of known examples?) that could have had unintended consequences (also why no one has been able to reproduced it).

I'm not saying there aren't other ways one could go about producing explanations for Scarecrows. Another option not limited to just C/D magics might be Ludicrous Magic (Rifter 9.5) had the Clown Golem (which is scarecrow-ish in terms of construction, which could be combined with Permanency Ward to overcome the Spell's main limitation (yeah this Golem is a Spell and not a Ritual, which shortens its life span considerably PLUS doesn't have the blood/SDC cost). The CG can also cast magic, something normal golems can't but Scarecrows can. If a Permanency Ward is put into place, it could mean other Ward Phrase(s) could have been placed upon it to (mutating it). This requires a Collaborative effort, which could have been lost to time (what self respecting mage would admit to working with a Ludicrous Mage like this after all).