P.P.E. Energy vs Conventional

[Kaleb]

I am fairly certain there is a post for this already but I haven't seen it. If anyone knows of a post about this please link it in this thread.

Why would anyone use techno-wizard weapons that require their own personal P.P.E. when fighting an enemy that doesn't require magic to damage it?

Wouldn't it just be better to just use conventional weapons? If you have an e-clip recharger you have unlimited recharges.

For P.P.E. powered weapons you will eventually run out of your own P.P.E. and have to hide until they build it back up.

[Aermas]

What's easier, carrying a nuclear reactor on you 24/7 or swinging by a leyline?

[Kaleb]

I feel like running to a Ley line might work if you're not in the heat of battle. Especially if you happen to have TW weapons like Tolkeen had which don't have P.P.E. clips that you can switch out quickly.

I feel like you might quickly run out of P.P.E. and get overwhelmed.

If you are fighting against someone like the Coalition or people from Northern Gun or the NGR, they usually have e-clip recharging generators somewhere in their group.

I think this even more so applies when you are dealing with conventional power armor and robots. The weapons they have built into them are powered by the nuclear reactors of the power armor or robot itself and don't need e-clips.

[Curbludgeon]

TW items are more often about utility than just doing damage, and many of those weapons are either intended specifically for use on a ley line, have a PPE battery, or can use PPE clips. If any caster I played wasn't an intentional technoprimitivist for whatever reason they had a conventional weapon with a long range.

[ShadowLogan]

Why use a PPE powered weapon over an Eclip powered weapon?
1. Carrying Considerations.
While Eclips don't have listed weights IINM, we can assume they have some weight, plus they take up volume. What could you replace each "spare" Eclip with if you didn't have to carry them?

2. Time.
How long does it take to swap Eclip vs pump the PPE in? At minimum the swapping likely takes at least 2x Actions to perform (1x to remove, 1x to replace). At minimum I don't think they establish how long it takes to pump PPE/ISP into a device so it could be 1x action (unless we're dealing with PPE clips then see prior bit else recharging the PPE clip)

How long does it take for an Eclip Recharger to work vs Natural PPE recovery methods? 4PPE for sleep/rest or 8PPE for meditation (TW, other OCCs vary), plus you can tap others for PPE, plus you can tap LeyLine/Nexus (10PPE per 15seconds nomrally, modifiers also apply for increased rates).

The Eclip recharger in MercOps (pg118) lists an 1hr to fully recharge one standard Eclip (and it can do 8x simultaneously). Ironically that is enough to recharge all the spare Eclips of a CS Grunt's standard gear, so a SQUAD of Grunts would require multiple hours using 1x unit.

Assuming Meditation it would take more than 15 hours for a Level 1 (generic) mage to recharge their PPE (assuming max roll). Not exactly practical.

Against a Ley Line in that same period: 1 hour = 60 minutes, a Ley Line can provide a (generic) Mage with 40PPE per minute OR 2400PPE (x2 for Nexus, other modifiers apply based on time of day/year) with no limit to the number that can tap it for PPE (so a SQUAD of Mages could recharge simultaneously). At 40PPE per minute a (typical) Magic User is likely to be completely rechaged w/n 10minutes (though will vary by case). PPE clips AFAIK don't list actual amounts in WB16o, so I don't know how much PPE is actually in each PPEclip (pistols can be directly powered for 10PPE per shot, and with 12x shots being the max in the book = 120PPE, and depending on which high value rifle used in the book could mean 20PPE for 20x rifle shots = 400 PPE, that might be an outlier so lets go with average of 6 w/o it for 20x6 =120PPE) but speculated at 120PPE per PPEclip means they could charge upto 20x such devices in the same time frame.

The Eclip Recharger though doesn't require one to be at a LeyLine/Nexus as it is portable. So it has an advantage there over a Ley Line/Nexus.


3. Cost.
Long Term or Short Term, PPE cost is going to be free.

An Eclip Recharger will cost 790k credits (MercOps) and the unit will last 12 years, I don't know what a jury rigged affair will cost. There might be other examples to use to.

Now personal maintenance costs could be factored in, but the reality is that would be a wash since both users have to pay it and I don't recall anything about mages needing more in this regard.

I feel like you might quickly run out of P.P.E. and get overwhelmed.

This is certainly possible.

The generic TW TK Machinegun in RUE (pg137-8) takes 20 PPE to charge completely and holds 60x shots doing 2d4MD per bolt (or 120-480MD).

The CS C-12 in RUE (pg257-8) holds 20 shots standard Eclip doing 2d6MD (or 40-240). (A long Eclip holds 30shots or 60-360MD)

A CS Grunt carries 5x clips (1x in gun, 4x spare per RUE pg233). A (LEVEL 1) TW has enough average (roll) PPE for x3 recharges, LLW for 6x, Shifter for x4, Mystic for x2. Plus the Mages can technically use their ISP to recharge the weapon, so potentially extra shots (3x for a TW) if not completely recharged, and I did not factor in PE bonus to PPE (so in come cases might get another recharge), nor any fractional full charges.

This means a CS Grunt can put out 200-1200MD worth of damage using those x5 clips (if we allow them to use their pistol clips basically double). If they are Long Eclips 300-1,800MD, though likely can't share.

It also means a TW can put out 360-1,440MD worth of damage, and that falls w/n the middle ground of classes looked at.

Based on this it would seem that the CS Grunt is more likley to be overwhelmed than the TW if using Standard Eclips, though a slight edge if using Long Eclips. Now this obviously can change depending on various factors (swap the guns around, OCC amounts carried, OCC level, etc), but it does seem to be fairly close such that if 1x side is going to have issues with staying in a fight then the other side isn't going to be doing much better.

[Mersharr]

Having a GM who hates dealing with the intricacies of controlling many combatants at once, I have never run out of ammo during combat. Thus being able to recharge my PPE-clips myself at any time without need for an external power source or waiting an hour, allows me to (almost) always start combat with a full clip, reinforcing the likelihood of not running out during the next combat either. And if I did empty a clip, I'd simply switch to my next weapon because I play a TW with the Weapons Engineer skill, who carries enough guns for a whole squad. I'm way more likely to run out of PPE from setting up buffs and debuffs, setting up the environment, or providing utility.

[Library Ogre]

This means a CS Grunt can put out 200-1200MD worth of damage using those x5 clips (if we allow them to use their pistol clips basically double). If they are Long Eclips 300-1,800MD, though likely can't share.

It also means a TW can put out 360-1,440MD worth of damage, and that falls w/n the middle ground of classes looked at.

Based on this it would seem that the CS Grunt is more likley to be overwhelmed than the TW if using Standard Eclips, though a slight edge if using Long Eclips. Now this obviously can change depending on various factors (swap the guns around, OCC amounts carried, OCC level, etc), but it does seem to be fairly close such that if 1x side is going to have issues with staying in a fight then the other side isn't going to be doing much better.

Also: Every person who dies around you can help refill your PPE. OTOH, a Dead Boy can take e-clips off their dead buddies.

[ShadowLogan]

This means a CS Grunt can put out 200-1200MD worth of damage using those x5 clips (if we allow them to use their pistol clips basically double). If they are Long Eclips 300-1,800MD, though likely can't share.

It also means a TW can put out 360-1,440MD worth of damage, and that falls w/n the middle ground of classes looked at.

Based on this it would seem that the CS Grunt is more likley to be overwhelmed than the TW if using Standard Eclips, though a slight edge if using Long Eclips. Now this obviously can change depending on various factors (swap the guns around, OCC amounts carried, OCC level, etc), but it does seem to be fairly close such that if 1x side is going to have issues with staying in a fight then the other side isn't going to be doing much better.

Also: Every person who dies around you can help refill your PPE. OTOH, a Dead Boy can take e-clips off their dead buddies.

Agreed, but I would put that under the heading of various factors.

In both cases there is no way to properly account for either, since Kill A could yield up 12 PPE but Kill B 8 PPE, etc and extra Clips on a fallen buddy can't be projected either.

However, it should be noted nothing stops the TW/Mage from picking up and using anyone's tech gear ("dropped" or "borrowed") either, where the opposite is not true of a CS Grunt (out of desperation) picking up and using a TW Weapon (unless they just happen to be psychic, which is not a guarantee either).

[Kaleb]

Why use a PPE powered weapon over an Eclip powered weapon?
1. Carrying Considerations.
While Eclips don't have listed weights IINM, we can assume they have some weight, plus they take up volume. What could you replace each "spare" Eclip with if you didn't have to carry them?

2. Time.
How long does it take to swap Eclip vs pump the PPE in? At minimum the swapping likely takes at least 2x Actions to perform (1x to remove, 1x to replace). At minimum I don't think they establish how long it takes to pump PPE/ISP into a device so it could be 1x action (unless we're dealing with PPE clips then see prior bit else recharging the PPE clip)

How long does it take for an Eclip Recharger to work vs Natural PPE recovery methods? 4PPE for sleep/rest or 8PPE for meditation (TW, other OCCs vary), plus you can tap others for PPE, plus you can tap LeyLine/Nexus (10PPE per 15seconds nomrally, modifiers also apply for increased rates).

The Eclip recharger in MercOps (pg118) lists an 1hr to fully recharge one standard Eclip (and it can do 8x simultaneously). Ironically that is enough to recharge all the spare Eclips of a CS Grunt's standard gear, so a SQUAD of Grunts would require multiple hours using 1x unit.

Assuming Meditation it would take more than 15 hours for a Level 1 (generic) mage to recharge their PPE (assuming max roll). Not exactly practical.

Against a Ley Line in that same period: 1 hour = 60 minutes, a Ley Line can provide a (generic) Mage with 40PPE per minute OR 2400PPE (x2 for Nexus, other modifiers apply based on time of day/year) with no limit to the number that can tap it for PPE (so a SQUAD of Mages could recharge simultaneously). At 40PPE per minute a (typical) Magic User is likely to be completely rechaged w/n 10minutes (though will vary by case). PPE clips AFAIK don't list actual amounts in WB16o, so I don't know how much PPE is actually in each PPEclip (pistols can be directly powered for 10PPE per shot, and with 12x shots being the max in the book = 120PPE, and depending on which high value rifle used in the book could mean 20PPE for 20x rifle shots = 400 PPE, that might be an outlier so lets go with average of 6 w/o it for 20x6 =120PPE) but speculated at 120PPE per PPEclip means they could charge upto 20x such devices in the same time frame.

The Eclip Recharger though doesn't require one to be at a LeyLine/Nexus as it is portable. So it has an advantage there over a Ley Line/Nexus.


3. Cost.
Long Term or Short Term, PPE cost is going to be free.

An Eclip Recharger will cost 790k credits (MercOps) and the unit will last 12 years, I don't know what a jury rigged affair will cost. There might be other examples to use to.

Now personal maintenance costs could be factored in, but the reality is that would be a wash since both users have to pay it and I don't recall anything about mages needing more in this regard.

I feel like you might quickly run out of P.P.E. and get overwhelmed.

This is certainly possible.

The generic TW TK Machinegun in RUE (pg137-8) takes 20 PPE to charge completely and holds 60x shots doing 2d4MD per bolt (or 120-480MD).

The CS C-12 in RUE (pg257-8) holds 20 shots standard Eclip doing 2d6MD (or 40-240). (A long Eclip holds 30shots or 60-360MD)

A CS Grunt carries 5x clips (1x in gun, 4x spare per RUE pg233). A (LEVEL 1) TW has enough average (roll) PPE for x3 recharges, LLW for 6x, Shifter for x4, Mystic for x2. Plus the Mages can technically use their ISP to recharge the weapon, so potentially extra shots (3x for a TW) if not completely recharged, and I did not factor in PE bonus to PPE (so in come cases might get another recharge), nor any fractional full charges.

This means a CS Grunt can put out 200-1200MD worth of damage using those x5 clips (if we allow them to use their pistol clips basically double). If they are Long Eclips 300-1,800MD, though likely can't share.

It also means a TW can put out 360-1,440MD worth of damage, and that falls w/n the middle ground of classes looked at.

Based on this it would seem that the CS Grunt is more likley to be overwhelmed than the TW if using Standard Eclips, though a slight edge if using Long Eclips. Now this obviously can change depending on various factors (swap the guns around, OCC amounts carried, OCC level, etc), but it does seem to be fairly close such that if 1x side is going to have issues with staying in a fight then the other side isn't going to be doing much better.

This is a very well thought out and detailed explanation and brings to light some things that I didn't even consider or know.

For example I didn't even realize that stats had been given regarding recharge times for e-clips. I thought it was much quicker than this.

[ShadowLogan]

Actually I think that is the only dedicated E-Clip re-Charger that I am aware of with stats, and it is supposed to be portable (as such it has to strike a balance between portability, life span, charge rate, and number it can recharge at once, etc something intended to be more "fixed" in location might work faster or able to handle larger loads).

I know there are various weapons and a few bionic systems that have "recharge" times, but a standalone dedicated unit I don't recall seeing another actual example of. These probably also have additional constraints that the dedicated system does which might explain their performance (ex. WB2 has a few that take 4 hours to recharge 40 shots for example, the Cyber-Centaurs have self-charging weapons at 1 blast per 10 minutes for a 10 blast payload, so even worse than the Splugorth ones)

[Killer Cyborg]

Wouldn't it just be better to just use conventional weapons? If you have an e-clip recharger you have unlimited recharges.

That’s a pretty hefty IF, unless you GM hands out big items like candy.

Granted, many DO, but it screws the economy mics of the game.

In general, it costs something like CR 800-1500 to recharge an e-clip, in a world where soldiers often earn less than that in a week (iirc).

Not to mention the relative scarcity of recharging facilities; in many parts of the world, like the wilderness, there won’t be a way to recharge an e-clip at any price.

But PPE for a mage can come back in an hour or two.

[Blue_Lion]

The advantage of PPE over e-clips is that ppe recovers naturally, and can be harvested from ley lines. If the group does not have a e-clip charger (something that is supposed to be expensive and rare) then ppe can recovery means you can spend more time in the field.