What if Tolkeen had packed their bags and ran?

[darthauthor]

Working on a story line.

What if Tolkeen had packed their bags and ran when the CS Army invaded.

I had imagined 5 or 10 percent would stay behind (ordinary humans).

I had imagined they would do a burned Earth number on anything they could not take with them but could be used against them or just did not want the CS to have.

I'd imagined the CS would be smug over their easy victory.

Best guess, they would move their people in.
Make it a forward operating base.
Search it for traps.
Kill the Tolkeen sympathizers or put them in a work camp.

Destroy momuments and magic.

When they are done, focus on Free Quebec.

With no help from Tolkeen, I'd imagine the CS war of Free Quebec would go on.
I'd imagine, half the CS troops against Tolkeen would be re-deployed against Free Quebec.
That or the Xiticix or New Lazlo.

The Cyber-Knights would stay unified.

Lord Duncan would smile and laugh for a couple of days then go, my greatest enemy just scored a huge victory. Use it to rally the peoples of the Federation of Magic.
Be a fear monger of CS invasion.

I'd imagine some Tolkeenites would rally towards him.

Lazlo would think they made the wise move but then what is their next move?
They would be flooded with people.

Necromancers would not have gotten the boost to their reputation.

The City of sleeping Dragons, Freehold, would not budge so easily.
Probably laugh at Tolkeen but would act sooner and take things more seriously if Tolkeen left.
No one else would do their fighting for them.
They would have no choice but to look to themselves.
They are dragons with enormus egos and power to boot.
When they get pushed out, it will be double the shame.

I'd imagine the CS would be harassed by Tolkeen insurgants.

I'd imagine the CS would be in a better position when the Minion War kicks off.

What do you think?

[darthauthor]

Question:

IF Tolkeen had walked away, "Who would the CS have attacked next: The Xiticix or someone else?"

[Warshield73]

Without the actions of Tolkeen the civil war between FQ and the CS would likely have continued so you would have to see how that shakes out.

As for the next target of the CS they seem to hate the more active magic communities the most rather than just animalistic kind of threat that is the Xiticix. Given that Lazlo is engaged in a war against the Xiticix I could see the CS try to go after the Federation of Magic while those two powers are busy.

[darthauthor]

That is probably the most intelligent answer.

I'd mention something about the closest target but your assessment of Lazlo engaging the Xiticix is accurate.
The CS would rather they fought and died.
If the CS came round it might confuse the Dead Boys to fight along side the Lazlo wizards and baby dragons.

Better to finish the job on the Federation, once and for all.

[Slider65]

I'm not sure how a population the size of Tolkeen would just "up and walk away" too begin with. And where would they go? Going east just makes them easy targets for the CS to defeat in detail, and I seriously doubt that Lazlo has the capacity to take on such a large surge in population to begin with.

Going west is a safer bet, but that is still a very large group of people crossing hundreds of miles of territory to get to...? The Colorado Baronies? Not sure if they could handle the influx to be honest.

Southwest is just a Bad Idea as it possible leaves them in a vice between Lone Star and the rest of the CS. Not to mention all the other friendly folks that call that corner of the U.S. their home. Pecos Raider's would see them as an invading force, and a potluck meal at the same time.

But here is a fun idea, why stay on Rifts Earth to begin with? There are certainly a large number of shifter's among Tolkeen's forces. So, lets say they all walk through a Rift.

Center in the 3 Galaxy's might be an idea, if that large a group just doesn't get stopped at the gates and sent back home just as fast as they got there. And the Gate closing behind them.

There's the possibility of a place like the UWW having both the size and resources needed to take them in, but some of the nastier elements of Tolkeen's forces, and several of the Warlords, I don't imagine being very welcome to say the least, and could certainly get up to all kinds of mischief. But at the least the UWW would be a very welcome place for most of Tolkeen's citizens.

For just all kinds of fun, Wormwood would be an... interesting destination to say the least. Although I cannot recall if the Living Planet would have the capability to keep such a large population fed. And as long as they are willing to join in the fight against the Unholy, I imagine they would be welcomed with open arms. And could quite possibly tip the balance in favor of the forces of goodness and light (cough, cough) But I could also see some of the Warlords, and those forces loyal to them, deciding that the Unholy seems like a nice fellow and there is certainly room for advancement on his side as well.

Just a few ideas if anyone finds them interesting.

[Grazzik]

Ran a mini campaign where the Tolkeenite powers that be locked down the ley lines via the pyramids to prevent citizens from just Rifting away, abandoning their duty to defend against the CS forces arrayed against them. So, the local BM boss recruited an Astral Lord psychic to take select clients (those that couldn't dimensionally self teleport) to an astral domain to bypass the magical lockout, in the expectation that a portal would be opened up somewhere safe far away from Tolkeen. It was a game of cat and mouse with the authorities who learned of this traitorous operation, while also an ethical dilemma for the PCs when the BM boss ordered all the air to be evacuated from the domain - killing the refugees.

[taalismn]

I'm not sure how a population the size of Tolkeen would just "up and walk away" too begin with. And where would they go? Going east just makes them easy targets for the CS to defeat in detail, and I seriously doubt that Lazlo has the capacity to take on such a large surge in population to begin with. .

I'm figuring hypothetic 'big arse Rift event'...but that could take EVERYBODY. Sort of a 'Cities in Flight' scenario, only it's extradimensional transposition.

Let's face it, it would be funny as hell if the CS army came over the horizon ready to rumble and found a big hole in the ground with a sign on the edge saying something along the lines of 'Moved to Happiness' or some other 'left without a forwarding address' message.

Cue a few Deadboys spiking their helmets into the ground, kicking and cursing, and more than a few others breathing a sigh of relief.

And CS high command nervously wondering where the hell those Tolkeenites could have gone.


Uglier scenario would swap Tolkeen for an alternate techno- fortress city even MORE prepared to rumble with these black-armored goons who are onsite when the former were apparently snatched from their surroundings.

[Grazzik]

Makes me think of the teleporting Stormspire (WB16), except on a grander scale.

What if Battleship Galatica's armada were, instead of space ships, a flotilla of towers packed with Tolkeenite refugees slowly teleporting their way across the prairies...

[Slider65]

Oh, I like the idea of Stormspire getting involved in the evacuation. That just opens up all kinds of Possibilities. For one, Stormspire teleporting in and packing in as much stuff (and people of course) as it can hold and then returning back to it's home. Talk about an opportunity for K'Zaa to get his hands on all sorts of new and interesting techno-wizardry that Tolkeen had developed, plus as many of the actual people involved in the making of said items, and he would be ecstatic.

[Warshield73]

I had a small town trapped between the CS and FoM where a techno-wizard tried to teleport it away, he accidentally turned it into a Fade-Town.

The problem for Tolkeen is how large it is so moving as one unit is almost impossible. I could see an evacuation where non-combatants evacuated to...all of the above. Some end up in the UWW, others in Center, some to Lazlo and New Lazlo and still others all over the world. In this situation I could see, instead of swapping Tolkeen for a nastier place, just inviting hordes of demons and monsters in to take over so that when the CS arrives you have glorious scumbag on scumbag violence.

I could see them trying to fold the entire city into a pocket dimension but who knows how bad that might go.

[Killer Cyborg]

Frankly, I’m an infinite Megaverse, I always found it odd that magical cities like Tolkeen don’t relocate to an unpopulated world in the first place, or at least have a colony somewhere that doesn’t have CS and vamps and Xiticix and such.

[Grazzik]

Frankly, I’m an infinite Megaverse, I always found it odd that magical cities like Tolkeen don’t relocate to an unpopulated world in the first place, or at least have a colony somewhere that doesn’t have CS and vamps and Xiticix and such.

You ARE an infinite Megaverse in my books, KC!

Jokes aside, logic would suggest that an extra-dimensional backdoor escape route would make total sense. But when dealing with crazy leaders drunk with insane levels of power and fragile egos, they may commit others to an unwinnable cause for the sake of pride rather than think of the greater good of the people. Hence the game I ran where people weren't allowed to evacuate via rifts, as they were expected to fight and defend the kingdom down to the last being, giving rise to black market trafficking to an astral domain. Makes for a good tense story of desperation when you restrict access to the one thing you'd imagine would be freely available in a magical kingdom littered with nexuses... namely, PPE. Most people don't have the PPE to open a Rift without a ley line buff and with authorities cracking down on ritual ceremonies / unauthorized gatherings. Think of a squad of deputized Alu demons kicking down the door to a birthday party because it might be cover for an illegal draft-dodging dimensional teleport ritual to safety. Personal freedoms are often the first victims of war.

[Ice Dragon]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

[Killer Cyborg]

Frankly, I’m an infinite Megaverse, I always found it odd that magical cities like Tolkeen don’t relocate to an unpopulated world in the first place, or at least have a colony somewhere that doesn’t have CS and vamps and Xiticix and such.

You ARE an infinite Megaverse in my books, KC!

[taalismn]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.

Of course, there will be one or more CS commanders who acquire Ahab-style obsessions with HUNTING DOWN TOLKEEN! to the point that when cooler heads back in Chi-Town call on them to return home, the generals disobey orders to keep going. Possible mutinies in the ranks when the troops learn that their units are now considered to be running rogue.

The Emperor, realizing that while he's got some proven zealots pursuing a traditional enemy as he'd like, the same force is also dangerously overextending itself and follow-up units being sucked in along them by the chain of command. Other fronts are acting up, and while the character-shielded CS military machine is whipping up new formations, legions of skelebots, and cannon fodder shock troops from the 'burbs, even that's not enough to keep the empire form stretching itself too thin. So he has to make the difficult decision to recall the troops, even might order the assassination of a few rogue officers if necessary to enforce the orders.

[Warshield73]

Frankly, I’m an infinite Megaverse, I always found it odd that magical cities like Tolkeen don’t relocate to an unpopulated world in the first place, or at least have a colony somewhere that doesn’t have CS and vamps and Xiticix and such.

The problem with that is that any place with enough ambient PPE to support a Tolkeen is also going to attract vamps, demons and worse. Look at what happened to the Lord of the Deep and Lemuria. They got stuck in a place they couldn't escape from which might be a problem for the inhabitants of a place like Tolkeen.

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

I have to agree with some of the others, if they go far enough away I just don't see them following that far or for that long. That said I could see a few squads of special operators and especially mercenaries sent out to cause trouble for the survivors and then you have to take into account what the Vanguard might do.

[Fenris2020]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.

Of course, there will be one or more CS commanders who acquire Ahab-style obsessions with HUNTING DOWN TOLKEEN! to the point that when cooler heads back in Chi-Town call on them to return home, the generals disobey orders to keep going. Possible mutinies in the ranks when the troops learn that their units are now considered to be running rogue.

The Emperor, realizing that while he's got some proven zealots pursuing a traditional enemy as he'd like, the same force is also dangerously overextending itself and follow-up units being sucked in along them by the chain of command. Other fronts are acting up, and while the character-shielded CS military machine is whipping up new formations, legions of skelebots, and cannon fodder shock troops from the 'burbs, even that's not enough to keep the empire form stretching itself too thin. So he has to make the difficult decision to recall the troops, even might order the assassination of a few rogue officers if necessary to enforce the orders.

Judging by Holmes' survival, I'd say that the CS is immune from the need for supply lines.

[Warshield73]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.

Of course, there will be one or more CS commanders who acquire Ahab-style obsessions with HUNTING DOWN TOLKEEN! to the point that when cooler heads back in Chi-Town call on them to return home, the generals disobey orders to keep going. Possible mutinies in the ranks when the troops learn that their units are now considered to be running rogue.

The Emperor, realizing that while he's got some proven zealots pursuing a traditional enemy as he'd like, the same force is also dangerously overextending itself and follow-up units being sucked in along them by the chain of command. Other fronts are acting up, and while the character-shielded CS military machine is whipping up new formations, legions of skelebots, and cannon fodder shock troops from the 'burbs, even that's not enough to keep the empire form stretching itself too thin. So he has to make the difficult decision to recall the troops, even might order the assassination of a few rogue officers if necessary to enforce the orders.

Judging by Holmes' survival, I'd say that the CS is immune from the need for supply lines.

Any group that uses vehicles equipped with reactors with lifespans measured in decades and energy weapons that can be recharged in those vehicles is going to have a degree of freedom from supply lines. When my characters where first starting out the only supply they ever had problem with was food and you can keep a lot of MREs in some of those APCs.

[Grazzik]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.
...

Judging by Holmes' survival, I'd say that the CS is immune from the need for supply lines.

Any group that uses vehicles equipped with reactors with lifespans measured in decades and energy weapons that can be recharged in those vehicles is going to have a degree of freedom from supply lines. When my characters where first starting out the only supply they ever had problem with was food and you can keep a lot of MREs in some of those APCs.

Which brings up a point that I haven't seen discussed - can you eat Xiticix? Insects are eaten all the time IRL. There was a thread that discussed eating Xiticix parts for necromancy, but there was no discussion as to whether eating Xiticix (for whatever reason) could actually be done or whether Xiticix flesh under the chitin is edible. It would appear from the books that Xiticix have a bio-chemistry compatible with Earth life as they eat fungus and various Earth plant matter. So, could Holmes and gang simply eat whatever Xiticix they run into and replace or supplement any MREs or foraged food they may have? Yes, a hive would swarm if they saw the CS troops pose an imminent threat, particularly if the humans were known to eat Xiticix, but Xiticix are likely intelligent enough to realize where to leave Holmes et al alone to pass through without swarming if it would best serve the hive to avoid a potentially disastrous fight. So, while it may be opportunistic, Holmes et al could survive well if Xiticix were edible.

[Warshield73]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.
...

Judging by Holmes' survival, I'd say that the CS is immune from the need for supply lines.

Any group that uses vehicles equipped with reactors with lifespans measured in decades and energy weapons that can be recharged in those vehicles is going to have a degree of freedom from supply lines. When my characters where first starting out the only supply they ever had problem with was food and you can keep a lot of MREs in some of those APCs.

Which brings up a point that I haven't seen discussed - can you eat Xiticix? Insects are eaten all the time IRL. There was a thread that discussed eating Xiticix parts for necromancy, but there was no discussion as to whether eating Xiticix (for whatever reason) could actually be done or whether Xiticix flesh under the chitin is edible. It would appear from the books that Xiticix have a bio-chemistry compatible with Earth life as they eat fungus and various Earth plant matter. So, could Holmes and gang simply eat whatever Xiticix they run into and replace or supplement any MREs or foraged food they may have? Yes, a hive would swarm if they saw the CS troops pose an imminent threat, particularly if the humans were known to eat Xiticix, but Xiticix are likely intelligent enough to realize where to leave Holmes et al alone to pass through without swarming if it would best serve the hive to avoid a potentially disastrous fight. So, while it may be opportunistic, Holmes et al could survive well if Xiticix were edible.

I could be wrong but my understanding was that Xiticix could not eat earth life. I thought the fungus was of their world and they simple fed it the remains of plant life. I am currently 4 states away from my books and don't have PDFs on this device so I can't check but my understanding was they basically Xiti-form all planets eliminating all life in favor of themselves and the fungus they eat.

As for eating them, if they can eat earth plants, and are mortal creatures then you should be able to crack the MDC shell and eat the innards but who knows. My feeling is that even if you just use modern rations as baseline a single Mark V with no troops and an empty sky cycle bay could hold weeks of rations for hundred of troops. Go to the high tech Triax stuff and food is all the sudden not an issue.

Whenever people talk about modern supply line problems it is mostly fuel. Of course aircraft guzzle gas like nothing but tanks like the Abrahams with that thirsty gas turbine engine those fuel conveys were always the ones that got hit the hardest.

A Rifts military with high end reactors (no fuel), and energy based weapons (powered by those reactors) and you can really reduce the reliance on resupply. Hell those reactors open up all sorts of possibilities for other things like water allowing teams in the field to purity any source.

Modern Rifts militaries like the CS or NGR could have T3Rs of 1 to 1 or even favoring combat troops like we saw in WWI. The single biggest issue, IMO, would be maintenance and repair.

[Grazzik]

I could be wrong but my understanding was that Xiticix could not eat earth life. I thought the fungus was of their world and they simple fed it the remains of plant life. I am currently 4 states away from my books and don't have PDFs on this device so I can't check but my understanding was they basically Xiti-form all planets eliminating all life in favor of themselves and the fungus they eat.

No worries, see:

Note: Although the fungus is the primary food source of the Xiticix, they can, in a pinch, also eat fresh or rotting fruit, mushrooms, lichen and potatoes.

The single biggest issue, IMO, would be maintenance and repair.

Bingo, agreed.

[darthauthor]

I agree about maintenance and repair.

All the damage the Xiticix would do to the vehicles, I believe, would make the force that came down from the North a shambles. Plus, unless you could fit all the men in vehicles they would panic and shoot and the Xiticix would kill them.

With the men dying or dead they would probably be enough food with rationing.

WATER, however, would be, in my mind, the biggest issue.

[Warshield73]

I agree about maintenance and repair.

All the damage the Xiticix would do to the vehicles, I believe, would make the force that came down from the North a shambles. Plus, unless you could fit all the men in vehicles they would panic and shoot and the Xiticix would kill them.

This has been discussed many times and no doubt will be again. It all depends on how you view a militaries discipline. In this case the ability to ignore provocation and push ahead with the certain knowledge that if you don't you will be wiped out to the last person.

With the men dying or dead they would probably be enough food with rationing.

WATER, however, would be, in my mind, the biggest issue.

The ability to pump, purify and decontaminate water on the go is limited only by power and availability of water. There is no shortage of water in Xiticix territory and the reactor provides the power so water shouldn't be an issue.