Rethinking the Conjuror?

[Ace, TW]

So, I've been rolling up a lot of premade characters for any impromptu Rifts games I might get into.

One of which is the conjuror.

First of all, in our game we house ruled that conjurors can create permanent MDC items at greatly reduced cost compared to those stated in the book. No more 100 PPE (70+30) tax for every conjuring. All the other wizards do everything as MDC, so it is only fare. Everything magical in this world is MDC the majority of the time.

Once I got to filling out his skills and possessions, I noticed that their mechanical and military skills are all available. So are piloting skills all the way up to jets and robots.

So, while a conjuror could not create an entire power armor suit wholesale, what is stopping one from conjuring individual parts and assembling them into a working finished product given his higher than regular skill set? He could not generate an original or custom design, but He could make perfectly stock copies of smaller and lighter suits or armor and weapons and even power armor. A bit like the Johnny Cash song where he built a Cadillac out of smuggled parts over the course of time.

Even simpler is that I don't see any reason a conjuror could not copy Bandito Arms' Big Bore series of weapons and shells or Wilk's CTF line of weapons and chem-laser "bullets".

I'm even considering adding to the class by letting them create an item at greatly reduced cost if they have an existing working example to use as a focus. For instance, a borg might have a ruined limb but the conjuror could create all the needed spare parts to replace to restore it to working order as long as they are not completely destroyed or missing.

And we let Conjurors who are major psychics take telemechanics and total recall as their only psi powers. Someone like that could examine a partial piece of an item, see the schematic in their mind and then generate the parts to finish it.

And I've been watching a new anime called "The Daily Life of a Middle-Aged Online Shopper in Another World" where the main character is more or less a conjuror in practice. It's been fun seeing it work out in a game world.

And based on what went down in that show, what about this. Large things can be conjured, but not "completely permanent" by that I mean, when not in use, they disappear into a Time Hole/D-pocket/Astral Realm waiting to be re-conjured at a discount later, since it already exists. Basically, the conjuror has the world's best "ace up his sleeve" on steroids so to speak. As time goes on the conjuror build up a warehouse of useful items that can be brought forth in a time of need and stored away for later rather than being created whole cloth every time. This would have the effect of turning the conjuror into the Rifts equivalent of the Green Lantern and their force field constructs. Or even store items that were never conjured in the first place but just a stockpile of regular manufactured goods that can then be conjured into use when needed.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[hellbender]

"Even simpler is that I don't see any reason a conjuror could not copy Bandito Arms' Big Bore series of weapons and shells or Wilk's CTF line of weapons and chem-laser "bullets"."

Snagging something from an iteration of 40k, orks can shoot some weapons because they believe the guns will shoot, thus making psychic bullets, something like this can work. These orks also believe that painting a vehicle red makes it go faster, so there is that. Maybe for these things to work the user needs to be convinced that it will work, like with the pieces of power armor working together as one unit.

[ShadowLogan]

So, while a conjuror could not create an entire power armor suit wholesale, what is stopping one from conjuring individual parts and assembling them into a working finished product given his higher than regular skill set? He could not generate an original or custom design, but He could make perfectly stock copies of smaller and lighter suits or armor and weapons and even power armor. A bit like the Johnny Cash song where he built a Cadillac out of smuggled parts over the course of time.

Several Factors (considering the RAW version, not your house ruled version):
1. "and permanently expending 1d6 P.P.E from his personal base."-BoM pg54 (its also in WB16o pg85, I'm sure someone else can provide the WB16r or the PF2E references). That means optimistically rolling Max personal PPE (and PE) and min PPE cost AT LEVEL 15, you can only create 278 permanent items. Sure taking PE physical skills might help, but you'd still be only talking a few extra items in the optimistic best case scenario (4 in the worst case scenario, but you'd still have PPE left over).
2. Duration would be another factor, you might not be able to conjurer and assemble all the parts in the available time (even if you had the PPE or where on a Ley Line)
3. the shear number of required parts (for something like a suit of Power Armor), never mind that some parts likely can not be "conjured" like the avionics ("computers, radios, (...) batteries, generators, engines (... are all examples of objects the CAN NOT be conjured"-WB16o pg83/BoM pg53) and certainly their power source. While you might argue that some of these could be broken down into their sub-components and assembled I think you still run into the issues of what can actually be conjured at some point (computers will require software to run, which isn't something you can conjurer)
4. From a Skills perspective you don't have access to the Electrical Skills necessary for something like Power Armor (mechanical yes, electrical systems no), now some assemblies items you might be able to get around this if you do it right (with the right skill), but in terms of Power Armor you'd have gaps in systems
5. Assembly might require additional tools & equipment, possibly even specialized equipment, conjuring them just adds to the issue in terms of numbers and time.

Even simpler is that I don't see any reason a conjuror could not copy Bandito Arms' Big Bore series of weapons and shells or Wilk's CTF line of weapons and chem-laser "bullets".

While they could assemble either weapon families, the ammo in both cases IMHO doesn't work.

nd based on what went down in that show, what about this. Large things can be conjured, but not "completely permanent" by that I mean, when not in use, they disappear into a Time Hole/D-pocket/Astral Realm waiting to be re-conjured at a discount later, since it already exists.

No, that sort of defeats the purpose of temporary duration.

[Ace, TW]

And having a temporary duration to conjurations defeats the purpose of the entire class imho.

We’ve got Techno-Wizards, Scathach Druids, Mystic Kuznya, and even regular Ley Line Walkers that can make permanent magic items (amulets and Talismans) without needing to use up permanent PPE, but the class specifically made to create mundane objects can’t muster the skill to hand out a pair of socks? Heck, I could play an Astral Mage and create an entire pocket dimension in the astral plane. Now, granted the LLW who is making golems, or using the level 15 enchant weapon spell are using up permanent PPE, and so is an Astral Mage making his domain, you have to admit that you are getting a lot more than something like a permanent bag of SDC nails for your trouble.

Seems wonky to me.

Ok, how would you change the class to bring it more in line with the rest of Rifts?

[ShadowLogan]

See I don't think the temporary duration of their abilities (w/o loss of permanent PPE) defeats the purpose of the class. I think that is the purpose of the class to fill the niche of "Pick Up to Two: You can have it fast/cheap/good" with them favoring the fast/cheap part where a TW (and others) does it good.

Don't believe me, well a Conjuring of a MDC Sword to do 2d4MD by RAW takes what 55PPE (cheap) and at best what a melee to conjuror (fast, actually it isn't clear how long it takes to poof exactly)? Compare that to a TW, who would need hours (slow), raw materials (& appropriate spells) and a lot more PPE and could deliver a more effective (ie more damage) weapon.

What about a Horse? We know how long and how much PPE the TW Glittermount Horse takes to create, which is a lot more than a Conjuror would spend in PPE and time to "conjuror" one.

Really the Conjuror isn't there to make permanent items, they come across more as a "fill in the blank" for missing item(s) the party might need temporarily or not want to lug around all the time or simplify logistics.

As far as fixing the class I'm not sure about that. Yes there might be things that need clarification, but overall I don't see it needing massive changes.

[Ace, TW]

The conjuror we have feels more like a sleight of hand stage magician pulling coins out of ears and doves from his hat.

The one I’d like to play is more like the Green Lantern.

I also liked the image of a diligent conjuror being able to make anything, given enough time, much like a techno-wizard.

Our group hasn’t house ruled much of anything yet, but we unanimously agreed that the permanent PPE cost had to go.

Maybe I should just multi-class into a Diabolist for a level or two and come back to Cojuration. Permanent Wards would be really easy to come by in a world full of demon bones.

[ShadowLogan]

When you get down to it Palladium's Conjurors' are more like Green Lantern's than slight of hand magicians. The class just isn't advanced enough as the art of conjuring is relatively "new" (per RAW, something like 50years or so IIRC, in PF I don't know how old the craft is, but it also makes sense they wouldn't be as "high tech" either given the setting), so it makes sense there would be boundaries they haven't completely figured out how to push through.

While you may like the idea of a Conjuror being able to construct anything given enough time, it seems outside of the intended scope of the class for their powers in RAW. Nothing stops the class from doing it w/o their powers, and they probably make excellent jury-riggers (something a Techno-Wizard or Operator could not match given they can replaced missing parts with "authentic" as opposed to "make shift" parts assuming they had the knowledge/skills and only needed it for a short time, or the PPE cost would be worth it).

As far as dropping permanent PPE cost, that is something that is pretty dumb when you think about it. A Conjuror can now just "poof" money into existence, could destabilize economies (why go to a blacksmith for X that will take days to forge when the Conjuror can do it in 15seconds? for example). Such a penalty is there for game balance when you get down to it.