Are you getting sick of one eyed CS supporters?

[grandmaster z0b]

I'm really not trying to offend anyone, infact this post is more of a joke.
What I really want to know is are all the full on CS loyalists on the boards right wing conservatives in real life? This is the way they are presented in the books, but there seem to be many on these boards who will never admit that the CS are anything but the saviors of humanity.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've used some of the more eloquent posts defending CS actions in my games as CS propoganda, or statements by Coalition apologists. Actually, this gives me an idea...

dare I ask

[Dead Boy]

The question it all boils down to is, "Are the CS the 'bad guys' for the most part?" The most accurate way to answer that is in the form of two answers.

1) Yes, by modern day standards of morality, right, and wrong, the Coalition States is a force devoted to blind hatred, prejudice, and fascism.
2) No, because in the context of the setting, not only is it understandable for the people of the CS be highly conservative and defensive to the point of adopting a "shoot first, hash it out later" policy, it can be easily rationalized to be essential!

Part of the problem many have with the Coalition is that they fail to truly look at the situation and times they live in, as well as the history that put them on the road they travel on today (109 PA). By modern thinking, to be so brutally militant to the point of "racial cleansing" is deplorable and certainly the act of evil men. But within the context of the setting, what they do really isn't all that unreasonable. They are the bastard children of the survivors of a horrible event that has had Humanity reaping its reprercutions for the past 300 years, including the loss of their claim to the Earth by the millions of overtly hostile and territorial demons, aliens, monsters, and would-be gods. Chi-Town and the rest of the CS did not get to where they are today by being submissive and letting these extra-dimensional creatures walk all over them. They did so by doing what Humanity does best; kicking ass and using our great intellect towards destructive means. And after 300 years, you can't just turn something like that off. It becomes ingrained in the fabric of the society that used those attributes to climb up out of the ooze. And when they did try to turn it off and experimented with things alien to Humanity, what happened? The Federation of Magic took advantage of them and invaded, guns blazing and intent on killing every last man, woman and child. Something like that would surely reinforce the teaching that to even dabble with the inhuman and supernatural leads to disaster. And besides, if you look over their so-called evil deeds, their accomplishments far outshine their misdoings. Thanks to the CS, there is a thriving economy over the entire continent, food is plentiful, and tens of millions of Humans are free to live their lives with little fear of being eaten for dinner, enslaved like cattle, or terrorized for sport. Thanks to the war machines of the CS, Humanity is not looked upon by the dragons and demons as play things to be toyed around with as they see fit, but a deadly potential foe that they should regard as, if not equals, rivals to be respected and not harassed. So go ahead and look to Lazlo and point out how Humanity there is doing O.K. for itself there. It doesn't mean a thing in the grand scheme of things. Ironically enough, it was the brutal acts of the CS that made it possible for them to even exist. For if not for the Coalition, many of their family lines would have never survived that long.

[Mike Taylor]

The CS are savoirs of humanity. I may not agree with their methods, but the fact is, without them, humanity wouldn't exist anymore.


-Syndicate

Nevermind the fact that other successful human governments exist on Rifts Earth and in the Three Galaxies.

[grandmaster z0b]

I am also Pro CS... But I did not vote becuase I dont know who Grace is... and I dont think the CS should be expending important resources trying to save her.. BAH to Grace I say... Let her rot, CS is here to protect humanity as a whole. One person, this Grace chic, cant be all that important...

Barney

But Grace is a human, I thought the CS are the only hope for humanity, or are they too busy commiting mass genocide on a bunch of tree lovin hippy DBs to save the damsel in distress.

Actually I was going to edit that but now I think I'll leave it.

I didn't think pro CS people could even read let alone correct me on my bad spelling and grammar .

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Good one Malignor

I need not say any more on this.

[grandmaster z0b]

I voted YES THE CS ARE FASCISTS.

I also am pro-CS. Not because I think they're nice guys (which I don't), nor because I am pro-nazi in any way (which I am not). I am pro-CS because they make the Rifts world cooler by having a genuinely controversial power in the Rifts megaverse, which really brings questions of morality, about good and evil, about what makes someone who they are and the distinguishing of an individual from their society. They also have a cool necro-storm-trooper look, a questionable set of policies (that can be both defended and opposed by rational people) and they seem all too possible in the chaotic, dangerous setting that is Rifts. They are composed of some of the greatest heroes and the worst villans of all. Great material for an RPG, and defintely one of the main things that give Rifts its charm.

I'm also pro-CS because in alot of ways they are the underdog. They give themselves a handicap by denying one of the most flexible and powerful resources: magic. Yet they still keep growing and overcoming the supernatural powers around them, while giving their citizens a "Logan's Run" sort of utopia with long life and happiness and the bliss of ignorance. They're creepy in that I find myself asking my inner me "Would I wage war for a chance to live in that utopia?" and not being able to answer with absolute certainty and honesty... you would really never know until you came face to face with the reality of such a decision. The appeal of the CS belief system is eerily plausable. Great stuff. I love inner conflict, since it makes for such great stories.

Good point, I think this post has actually helped me understand the point of view of a pro-CS rifter, and I definately agree that the CS is far more plausible than Lazlo, even though if it were real I'd be living in Lazlo (apart from anything else I like to read too much).

What sometimes annoys me is when CS loyalists can't admit that the CS conduct in some of the worst atrocities, as bad as any demon. Eg. slavery (slave borgs and Dog boys) genocide of DeeBees, and the promotion of ignorance, illiteracy, bigotry and hatred.

But that's just me, a left wing tree lovin hippy (not really ).

[Kagashi]

I agree with Dead Boy and Malignor.

I did not vote because I believe that the CS higher ups are indeed facists, but the average citizen and soldier may not be. They are just trying to make due with what the world has given them.

[Dead Boy]

The CS are savoirs of humanity. I may not agree with their methods, but the fact is, without them, humanity wouldn't exist anymore.


-Syndicate

Never mind the fact that other successful human governments exist on Rifts Earth and in the Three Galaxies.

You beat me to it.

Psyscape, Lazlo, the NGR, half of south America, Free Quebec, the New Navy, Tritonia, even Tarnow and the Russian Warlords all show that the ways of the CS aren't the only choice and never were.

The thing is, ALL of these other example had advantages that the people of the CS didn't have early on, (pre PA calendar).
Psyscape had a population of uber-psychic to call upon.
Lazlo doesn't really count because it is predominately a city of d-bees and the supernatural with a small but visible Human populous.
The NGR had the Triax plant available to them from day one and were able to crank out an army of bots and PA early on for their protection.
Free Quebec had similar and had their Glitter Boys from day one, (even though they are almost as much as fascist as the CS given their heavy Human Supremest sentiments)
The New Navy was and still is a military power with Golden Age tech and had a strong organization to draw upon to give them stability.
Tritonia and Tarnow I'll have to read up on, but I'd wager they had advantages early on in the Dark Ages as well.

The people that not make up the CS on the other hand had to fight and scrape for everything they got. They didn't have a NEMA factory to call home, nor did they have any military training or structure to aid them. They made their nation off of the blood, sweet and tears of their forefathers the hard way. Is it any wonder that they carry on that tradition of being a hard people?

[Shiva7]

The CS are savoirs of humanity. I may not agree with their methods, but the fact is, without them, humanity wouldn't exist anymore.


-Syndicate

Nevermind the fact that other successful human governments exist on Rifts Earth and in the Three Galaxies.

You beat me to it.

Psyscape

Have uber psionic powers that not everyone can have. Though the C uses psychics, they pale in comparisn to the power of the Psyscape mutants.

Lazlo

Yes for now, but there is a lack of n formation on just how their society works, so it's hard to really say.

the NGR

Their practices are not all that different, and they aren't faced with a human enemy that weilds magic. The NGR is faced with a clear and identifiable enemy, thus it's much easier for them to distingush between friend and foes. The CS doesn't have this luxury. Nevertheless, the NGR is still a human suremist society.

half of south America

The top half?

Same as above, their enemies are either clearly aien, or distinuguishable in other ways. Pirates, though not always easy to spot, they can be identified much more easily than mages. And the Vapire plaguing Colombia are also a clear and identifiable enemy, too bad the magic weilding foes of the CS aren't as easily picked out froma crowd.

Free Quebec

Other than literacy and a few other bovernmental policies, their society is just as bad in deed as the CS, so it's not much of an improvement of how the CS does things.

the New Navy

Again, their enemies are much easier to identify. They also didn't go through the 300 years dark ages. Well, they did, but they were isolated ont heir ship and they could just pick up and move to friendlier waters if they so desired, the CS can't just move their entire society to another place to avoid their enemies.

Tritonia

Who are the enemies of Tritonia? Again, they can easily identify their enemies when they are faced with a conflict.

even Tarnow

Have a clear and identifiable enemy, the Brodkil.

the Russian Warlords

After wiping out all the easy enemies, they now war between themselves. It's one big chaotic warzone.

all show that the ways of the CS aren't the only choice and never were.

Though the CS surely has other option, and indeed had other options, their unique situation isn't comparable to the other human nations you mentioned.

I dislike the way the CS govenment operates, an that they would even put people like Drogue in positions of power, but unlike the US who is not really directly threatened in the same way as the CS, it is clear that certain measures of saftey have to be taken to maintain order and peace in such a large expanse of land that grows constantly.

[Shin Kenshiro]

The question is, Are the Coalition States of America fascist?

The answer of course is yet. While every citizen may not be personally fascist, the regime is fascist.

Just as the USA is a democratic republic, not every American is a supporter of this system of government.

Actually, the question is "are you getting sick of one-eyed CS supporters?"


And why mention the 3 Galaxies? Considering the ungodly amount of firepower floating around out there, I'm sincerely doubting they have the same kind of problems the CS does.

One good thing to know is, the CS has all those wonderful nukes in its arsenal. If the NGR is about to fall, it's gonna be a weather forecast of 1,000,000 degrees Farenheit up and down Europe. "But the Gargoyles will survive because a nuke does only 1D4x100!" No, they won't. You forget the first rule of Palladium! Mentioned stats are nothing when flavor text is written.

Let us not forget the one shot gargoyle killers in the NGR comic...

[grandmaster z0b]

I again invoke my mightly powers of quoting the books! Federation of Magic page 6:

...these three "Frist Magic Kingdoms" [Lazlo, Tolkeen, and The Federation of Magic] were amoung the earliest to prosper and rise to power. They were already well established and growing for generations before the formation fo the Coalition States in One P.A.

Humans were doing "O.K." in all three (and ruling two of them) without the Coalition. Tolkeen and the Federation were nice places before they felt threatened by the CS.

Totally agree, especially when I don't have the books with me to quote, and remember that Lazlo, Tolkeen and The FOM would have been larger, more peaceful and more prosperous if the CS hadn't been there killing and harassing them for the last 80 years.

If the only way for humanity to survive was through the CS, and they were even able to rid the world of all demons and aliens, I would jump into a random Rift to try to find a world where I was able to read and write and think for myself thankyou very much.

[grandmaster z0b]

You know this may sound "simple" but the reason i am such an avid CS supportor is i look at this way i am in no way racist i dont give a flying F*** what color your skins is what god you worship or what food you choose to eat or dont eat but i do look at this as this i am damn sure a Humanist

if a bunch of frickin demons and aliens started comming to earth (granted i can here a ton of arguements abut how some help blah blah blah but bottem line they aint all about that) an started to try an take over hell yeah id be right there stickin up for Humans and Humans only the rest can kiss my humanist arse

Lynx

What I find difficult about this argument is that it is NOT A RATIONAL ARGUMENT. It is simply an EMOTIVE argument based on the pre-conception that this is our planet.

We know that not all DBs and aliens are bad, there is no discussion here as it is printed in black and white that most races are like humans, there are bad ones and good ones. It is also stated that many races came here not of there own accord and not to conquer, infact most have no urge to conquer, they simply want to live out their existance, especially considering that Rifts Earth is not a very nice place and most would probably prefer to be back home where there weren't demons and aliens trying to eat them and facists trying to kill them simply because they exist and have a different genetic code.

Dog boys aren't human but instead of killing them the CS BREED them.

If a troop of CS soldiers accidently got Rifted into another dimension would you expect them just to sit down and die? Or would they fight for their lives, and if they couldn't get back try and make a life for themselves.

EDIT: simple whoops

[NoJack]

As there are no other "real" sentient creatures, they don't have any rights. Truth to be told nobody has unalienable rights. Sure everyone and their dog deserves them, but without the strength of our country and society to preservee them it could quite easily devolve into might-makes-right.

For all of our Moral prattling we are speaking from a position of relative ease and inexperience. (Myself included) It is all well and good to say "I would..." or "I would never..." but when push comes to shove and the Russian military is shoving an AK in your face... their requests seem a lot more reasonable, no matter how 'legal' it might be. Yes this has happened to me. It is VERY hard to stick to your guns with a gun to your head. Not impossible. (nope my friend had the pistol to his head not me.)

We have an unprecedented amount of freedom in the US and Canada, so it is difficult for us to see that it's not that way all over the world. We have our own issues and problems, however most of it seems to be argueing about what is or isn't wrong instead of soing something about it.

[Dead Boy]

I again invoke my mightly powers of quoting the books! Federation of Magic page 6:

...these three "Frist Magic Kingdoms" [Lazlo, Tolkeen, and The Federation of Magic] were amoung the earliest to prosper and rise to power. They were already well established and growing for generations before the formation fo the Coalition States in One P.A.

Humans were doing "O.K." in all three (and ruling two of them) without the Coalition. Tolkeen and the Federation were nice places before they felt threatened by the CS.

Hey, UNM, welcome to the boards! Always good to see fresh faces around here.

As to your quote, it has a major error in it. The CS wasn't created till 33 P.A. 1 P.A. was when the fledgling kingdom of Chi-Town decreed to the rest of the world that it and the many other kingdom's of man were on a strong enough footing to declare that Humanity was on the come-back trail and a force to be reconed with. Chi-Town and its allies were maturing and fighting off demons and monsters for generations upon generations before that. Perhaps as much as century or longer. So when I say that the CS has been fighting for the survival of Humanity for long enough for it to greatly impact the Human populations of Lazlo and others, I was referring to their forbearers. In fact, I could swear I used the term pre-CS in my previous post a few times to that very end.

Totally agree, especially when I don't have the books with me to quote, and remember that Lazlo, Tolkeen and The FOM would have been larger, more peaceful and more prosperous if the CS hadn't been there killing and harassing them for the last 80 years.

Ah, you do know that it was the Federation of Magic that drew first blood against Chi-Town back in 12 P.A., right? During a time when the Human kingdom was experimenting with magic and the supernatural in fact. A better question would be, what would the territories that eventually became the CS be like today if the FoM wasn't so belligerent and hostile? As for Lazlo and Tolkeen, both of them were in existence at that time, (as evidenced by UMN's quote), they could have easily come to the aid of Chi-Town to fend off the attack and bring stability to the land. They didn't. Given that one can draw one of two possible conclusions: that they were either in on it, or the two supposedly "peaceful" neighbors supported the attack after the fact. Either way, their inaction at that crucial time showed them to be the enemies of Humanity that they are.

[R Ditto]

I agree with Sir Darom about compassion and reason being good signs of being human.

Another distinguishing sign of being human is the ability to suppress or overcome baseline animal instincts and primal urges.

And has been pointed out, shape shifting nasties trying to cause harm to humans would be more likely to disguise themselves as humans or something humans trust (like 'harmless' domestic animals).
Since humans are one of the major powers in some areas, it would make sense for shape changing nasties to hide among humans, especially when it comes to human supremacist.
No reason hiding as a little elf kid if you're going to get shot anyways, better to hide where they won't think of looking for you... in their own back yard.

I kind of think of the CS as doing all the wrong things for all the right reasons, and for abusing their own power. E.g., using the situation at hand as a cover for maintaining their power and control. IMHO, for every good thing the CS does, there is a less than good alterior motive that is the actual reason for taking such an action.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Ah, you do know that it was the Federation of Magic that drew first blood against Chi-Town back in 12 P.A., right? During a time when the Human kingdom was experimenting with magic and the supernatural in fact. A better question would be, what would the territories that eventually became the CS be like today if the FoM wasn't so belligerent and hostile? As for Lazlo and Tolkeen, both of them were in existence at that time, (as evidenced by UMN's quote), they could have easily come to the aid of Chi-Town to fend off the attack and bring stability to the land. They didn't. Given that one can draw one of two possible conclusions: that they were either in on it, or the two supposedly "peaceful" neighbors supported the attack after the fact. Either way, their inaction at that crucial time showed them to be the enemies of Humanity that they are.

Also if I recall right to add to this, the original FoM started in Old Chicago, while the new Chi-Town Fortress City was some distance away. So the FoM, rather than asking for shelter within the Fortress and offering their services in its defense, started their own little club down the block. Rather anti-social of them I think.

[Shin Kenshiro]

it's always easy for those who have never been in combat to judge those who must fight daily to survive.....

[grandmaster z0b]

What I cannot understand is how all you CS supporters can justify the genocide of all non-humans, but at the same time support the fact that they CREATE non humans: Dog Boys. Also Psi-Stalkers civilized or not are not human, but a sub-species.

How can one justify the slaughter of all non humans on one hand and then actively use and CREATE them on the other?

Please don't give me some justification like "desperate times call for desperate measures", if non-humans are really that dangerous that they must be purged from the planet then you would not create them to serve you. If some non-humans are all right then the entire argument flies out the door.

I have yet to see anyone reconcile this dichotomy.

I love the CS as a believable fascist state, and the world of Rifts is so extreme their extreme methods are understandable, but NOT justifiable. If you like them as bad guys fine, but please do not pretend that their politics are excusable.

[Shin Kenshiro]

What I cannot understand is how all you CS supporters can justify the genocide of all non-humans, but at the same time support the fact that they CREATE non humans: Dog Boys. Also Psi-Stalkers civilized or not are not human, but a sub-species.

How can one justify the slaughter of all non humans on one hand and then actively use and CREATE them on the other?

Please don't give me some justification like "desperate times call for desperate measures", if non-humans are really that dangerous that they must be purged from the planet then you would not create them to serve you. If some non-humans are all right then the entire argument flies out the door.

I have yet to see anyone reconcile this dichotomy.

I love the CS as a believable fascist state, and the world of Rifts is so extreme their extreme methods are understandable, but NOT justifiable. If you like them as bad guys fine, but please do not pretend that their politics are excusable.

Because they are CREATING dog boys, and they have TAMED the psi-stalkers that are in the military. Yes, you have your feral dog boys. Yes, there are wild psi-stalkers. BOTH are hunted and killed without mercy by the CS. Lone Star pretty much sums up the Dog-Boy thing. You need something to find magic users, but in Rifts, you need something that can give you exactly where it is, not just bark alot. So you take the best of both worlds, brainwash the hell out of it, and use it for your own benefit like cannon fodder.

Why doesn't the CS use elves or something? To smart, and notorious for magic usage. Why put the time and effort into pacifying a species and teaching them how to do what you want, when you can just create one and pacify another (which is an evolved offshoot of your own species) that already has the abilities you're looking for. The CS is out there killing off anything different, and you make it sound like everyone keeps a dog boy around for a pet. They are exclusive property. Not pets, not equals, nothing but something to be used and abused.

[dark brandon]

I'm really not trying to offend anyone, infact this post is more of a joke.
What I really want to know is are all the full on CS loyalists on the boards right wing conservatives in real life? This is the way they are presented in the books, but there seem to be many on these boards who will never admit that the CS are anything but the saviors of humanity.

No. In real life I'm a bit more of a liberal. Truth is I'm sort of a fence rider. There are some things I like conservitives for and some things I like liberals for. I find myself agreeing with what liberals say more often that conservitives, but there are some things they make me thing "Wha? You didn't just suggest what I think you did?".

I have yet to see anyone reconcile this dichotomy.

Because no answer anyone gives regardless of how well thought out it is will be good enough for you. Truth is, there is probably no argument some can give me that will make me think they are evil. It's our differing belief/morals that make it such an impossible argument. So, we just argue this because we are bored and it's sometimes fun. In otherwords, there will not be any thing that will really change anyone's opinion.

You don't think they are justified. I do. I think things like morals, being humain, compasion for your enemy, and even a need to justify things are a privilages that can only come with security, stability and comfort. That is not something the CS feels it has. It reminds me of the Golden rule, "He who has the gold, makes the rules". those who have the power can make any reason for war as justification. Even if it's "We think they my be hiding Magics of Mass Destruction". Pretty much, that's all the justification they need.

CS to me isn't evil. CS to me is more of an anarchist. They'd be happy if everyone just left north america...better yet, just left the world all together. Lazlo would be principled, while atlantis is straight up evil.

How can one justify the slaughter of all non humans on one hand and then actively use and CREATE them on the other?

Dog boys and Psi-stalkers are "part" human are in controled aspects of society. Dogs have always been "mans best friend"...and psi-stalkers cannot feed on normal humans

If you like them as bad guys fine, but please do not pretend that their politics are excusable

I don't pretend anything. In my view it is you who is pretending. In your view, i'm pretending. In truth, we both are pretending...cause it is just a game after all.

[grandmaster z0b]

Because they are CREATING dog boys, and they have TAMED the psi-stalkers that are in the military. Yes, you have your feral dog boys. Yes, there are wild psi-stalkers. BOTH are hunted and killed without mercy by the CS. Lone Star pretty much sums up the Dog-Boy thing. You need something to find magic users, but in Rifts, you need something that can give you exactly where it is, not just bark alot. So you take the best of both worlds, brainwash the hell out of it, and use it for your own benefit like cannon fodder.

Why doesn't the CS use elves or something? To smart, and notorious for magic usage. Why put the time and effort into pacifying a species and teaching them how to do what you want, when you can just create one and pacify another (which is an evolved offshoot of your own species) that already has the abilities you're looking for. The CS is out there killing off anything different, and you make it sound like everyone keeps a dog boy around for a pet. They are exclusive property. Not pets, not equals, nothing but something to be used and abused.

I don't really see how this justifies genocide and slavery. Obviously non-humans aren't that bad if they can make a large part of the CS military. Whether their useful or not isn't relevant.

How can you justify the slavery of an intelligent species? Your essentially using the same arguments that southern pro-slavers used in the civil war. God gave this planet to us (the whites) and it is such a hard world that instead of killing all the negroes we're going to use them to grow cotton for us.

Why can't you all just admit that you love the CS for being hard ass bad dudes, who don't take no s@%^ from no one, instead of using psuedo intellectualism to try and justify their abhorrent policies.

GENOCIDE
SLAVERY
BIGOTRY
IGNORANCE

Remember that if you were Rifted into the Coalition States you would still be classified as a DB coz you were born in a different dimension and the fact you can even read would mean you are an enemy of the state.

[dark brandon]

The means of the CS are excusable. The means are carried out by people who are trying to be good-guys (and sometimes misguided). The policies are excusable because non-humans aren't human and do not belong on Earth (so the CS belief system goes).

The CS makes psi-hounds as manufactured slave-compainions. They are not making "people". If the CS acknowledged the psi-hounds as "people" they would have to give them rights like citizens have, and alter their policies on mutant non-humans. The same goes for psi-stalkers - they are mutants, and therefore tools to further CS goals. Nothing more. Since both of these mutant tools are willing to help the CS, and they share a common enemy with the CS (magic users and supernatural creatures), they are embraced and used and, though lesser things, they are still treated well... as almost-people. If there were other mutants that fed on or hated magic and the supernatural, or seemed specialized to defeat them somehow (like maybe psi-nullifiers? hmmm?) then the CS would be willing to use and accept them as well. Mutants are not D-bees. Mutants are just walking accidents and are generally not as high a priority target as an equivalent D-bee.

This fits perfectly with the CS agenda and policy.

How's that, z0b?

Arn't psi-nullifiers part of the CS psi-battalion?

[dark brandon]

Remember that if you were Rifted into the Coalition States you would still be classified as a DB coz you were born in a different dimension and the fact you can even read would mean you are an enemy of the state.

....touche...

I was just thinking, If he, or I, or you or anyone were born in Chi-town, you probably wouldn't question, and probably wouldn't think what your doing is evil in any sense.

[gaby]

The Mutant call the Magic back rounder a character impervious to magic. See Rifts Ausralia page 130.
Are ther mutants like this in North America and other countries?

How will the CS and others see them?

So what do you think?

[dark brandon]

Why can't you all just admit that you love the CS for being hard ass bad dudes, who don't take no s@%^ from no one, instead of using psuedo intellectualism to try and justify their abhorrent policies.

GENOCIDE
SLAVERY
BIGOTRY
IGNORANCE

Remember that if you were Rifted into the Coalition States you would still be classified as a DB coz you were born in a different dimension and the fact you can even read would mean you are an enemy of the state.

Z0b - Genocide? no more than bugbombing your home...

Slavery? own a dog? ever ridden a horse?

Bigotry? Sure, but when was the last time you asked a Cow its opinion?

Ignorance? no, loyalty and service to humanity Yes...

Everyone who is antiCS is just too wrapped up in REAL life to get into the game. It's like those people who cant play "in character", who run away from the beholder (that their character knows NOTHING about) because they know it has a deathray stalk... Who ever said that Dbee and humans were equal? no one... is there any differance between killing a Dbee village and knocking down an ant hill near town??? No... Just that simple...

Barney

The day that dogs, horses and cows start asking for my opinion is the day they're given equal treatment as human beings. That's why most human cultures are fairly squeamish about killing certain creatures they percieve as smarter than others. Most cultures don't eat dogs, few eat cats, close to none eat dolphins. As much as I love slaughtering cows for their delicious, delicious flesh, I'll stop killing them, that sounds like a fair standard. If I was the one being eaten, I'd hope I could ask not to be eaten either.

We slaughter Pigs by the um...alot...yet they are proven smarter than your average house dog. Yet we still devour them without a second thought. We are fairly squeemish about killing something that has become part of our family regardless of how "smart" the culture believes them to be.

no, while I agree with you about the protection of weaker humans, they are in fact brain washed. actually they are indoctrinated since pup-hood on the virtues of being good dogboys for their masters.

To me, brain washing is only really brain washing when your trying to force new sets of attitudes or beliefs into a person who already has a set of their own. If its something you are taught at birth, it's training or being brought into your culture. You cannot condemn one type of brainwashing and say another is ok.

[Shin Kenshiro]

Wow Zob you really do have a grudge against the coalition don't you did they hurt you and your family somewhere? are you another casualty of the coalition war machine? or does it go much deeper then that? seeing as its just a game i doubt any of the above has happened so

Lynx

The Pro-CSers really do have a soft spot in their heart for the Coalition, don't they? Did the CS rescue them from marauding little elf girls somewhere? Or does it go much deeper than that? It's just a game. I doubt any of the above has happened.

I was almost sexually assaulted by a Grackle Tooth and his diablolic 70 year old elf mistress when I was 8....but 2 Super SAMs took them out and gave me a "Don't talk to D-bees" speech. I will never turn away from the CS.

[dark brandon]

Wow Zob you really do have a grudge against the coalition don't you did they hurt you and your family somewhere? are you another casualty of the coalition war machine? or does it go much deeper then that? seeing as its just a game i doubt any of the above has happened so

Lynx

The Pro-CSers really do have a soft spot in their heart for the Coalition, don't they? Did the CS rescue them from marauding little elf girls somewhere? Or does it go much deeper than that? It's just a game. I doubt any of the above has happened.

No...I just find it fun to cut up little elf girls with a vibro-sword. It's like a hot knife though room tempurature butter.

Why fight something my own size when I can gun down the innocent? I mean they don't even TRY to fight back AND still be concidered a hero for it.

Besides, chicks did the death's head motiff.

(PS. check out my title over my Icon...kinda fits, No? Hero title over a picture of Karl Prosek...not just another coincidence.)

[dark brandon]

Oh I give up! If you want to root for the genocidal fascists, go ahead and root for the genocidal fascists. I'll be in Lazlo, with the elf girls.

(P.S. Erin Tarn could kick Karl Prosek's @$$!)

Until lazlo is destroyed by Quebec...

[Sureshot]

I don't think Free Quebec will destroy Lazlo. For one their attitude is watch and wait. Two they just finished up a civil war with the CS so their military is still in the rebuilding phase. Although Free Quebec has been waiting for Lazlo to suprise attack them (They have been waiting forty years for such an attack) it just don't see it happening. If Free Quebec does attack I sure as hell hope it's not going to be another SOT debacle. I expect Lazlo to go down fighting and do some serious damage.

[Shades of Eternity]

One of the biggest things that is used to justify the CS attrocities is that "we were here first".

What if I could prove that Homo sapians may not be native to the planet earth?

[Sir Neil]

The Pro-CSers really do have a soft spot in their heart for the Coalition, don't they?

Yup. I see the CS as the natural continuation of BtS. (My group's favorite game.) The entire premise of BtS is "This is our world, and you can't have it."

Admittedly, I'm not sure why the CS isn't satisfied with killing monsters; why they kill people too (and keep them ignorant).

[Shades of Eternity]

One of the biggest things that is used to justify the CS attrocities is that "we were here first".

What if I could prove that Homo sapians may not be native to the planet earth?

But they are! The Elder Race from Antarctica made humans as playthings, before Cthulhu and his Star Spawn warred them down to the stone age... at least until the Shoggoths began their uprising (which sucked, pardon the pun).

hee hee

I knew our future president was there somewhere.

now I really wish the book was out, cause I do a bit of speculating on that very topic and don't dare post it here.

[NoJack]

a Human being is by its very nature a good thing. It takes many years of public school to get jaded enough to accept the world as it is. IS this a good thing? I'm undecided on that issue. The CS fits the bill of Fascists. However this comes from the top down. Prozek and his close supporters are the only ones who I would blame for their actions. When it all comes down to it, it is easyer to believe -humans good, them bad- Very simple. We are in a position to know better, and we are d@man lucky to have been born and raised in a place where we had that opportunity.

The CS are convincing because they are the embodiment of the brutality that is locked away in the human nature. Have you ever seen a father protect his injured child from its attacker, driven by that most harmless of human emotions: love? I watched my uncle tear a pitbull's jaw off as it was mauling his daughter. Right off. Adrenaline is nice. He was the sort who wouldn't hurt a fly, greenpeace hippy in his day. But when push comes to shove, we pull together. 9-11 was a great example of that. In spite of the horror we there were more heroes made from that incident than monsters. 17 men were the main planners and perpetrators of the attack, they spent months in observation and preparations. 330 odd NYC firefighters were killed when they ran INTO the burning towers to save total strangers who might be trapped there. I don't know anything else about those men but I can respect them because of that one act. Any person who would lay down their lives for another can't be all that bad.

I like the CS as the bad guys, I love them as a reflection of what we could become. Not what we should but what we could. In their own misguided way many of the citizens and troops of the CS believe that they are doing what they have to. The heart of the CS isn't rotten, it's the brains.

Someone said something about placing their sleeping child into the black gauntleted hands of a CS trooper for protection. I have no trouble seeing that ignorant, indoctrinated man doing whatever was necessary to get that child to safety. Does that make the CS right? No. Does that make them any less of criminals? No. Does that make them mis-guided and sad? to us yes. They have the framework to be great. They aren't there in the way that counts yet.

[dark brandon]

I just think they're cool and should stay a strong force in Rifts Earth as long as Rifts is in print.

I just want to make something clear. I don't think anyone here is saying that they don't like the CS being in the Rifts setting. They are great villians. All we're saying is that the CS goverment is evil, and the people are pawns of that evil goverment. Facts that are plainly stated in the books. What bothers us are the 'one eyed CS supporters' who talk as if they believe CS propaganda, and compare people (albeit fictional alien people) to cockroachs and livestock. It's one thing to say Darth Vader is cool. It's another thing to say he's a hero, and the Jedi had it coming to them.

Not everyone sees things as black and white. I like to see things from the other end of the spectrum. WHY did darth vader do what he did? He was evil. Why? Maybe the jedi did have it coming to them, since in most instances we are given the view from only one side (most of the time it's the "good guys" side). The same with CS. Are they evil? Why? Kevin has also given many facts that state that everyone in CS is not evil. A fun game starts out as CS soldiers who "are shown the light". But a better game is one where the characters are torn. Sure, they may realize Prosek is evil, but they may also think/realize/hope whatever that in north america humans are given a chance. People who tend to see CS as badguys only view them as one sided. A bland villain. Maybe they are even creative, but still, one dimentional. So if the people of the evil government are pawns, does that make them as evil? The reason CS is such a great thing for rifts is that they arn't (or I chose not to make them) One dimentional. Nearly every soldier has a family. When a CS soldier dies, he leaves behind more than just CS. Why was he fighting for the CS? Why does he hate dbees? Maybe his father was someone who was killed by a dbee. When a CS soldier dies...it's a big thing. It's not like everyone goes "Oh, well". He's fighting because he really loves his family. Not everyone who is higher than a grunt automatically become diabolic. CS soldiers arn't doing it for the fun of killing things or for the thrill of the adventure. THey are doing something because they love their family, species and emporer. CS soldiers are very much heros.

[Shades of Eternity]

....if you can call the concentration camps good

I personally love how they wrote out the camps as one man's vision, and it wasn't prosak.

Talk about revisionist history.

[grandmaster z0b]

I've been away for a few days over Easter, it's good to see that some sensible individuals are keeping up the crusade! As far as some people thinking I'm taking the game too seriously, trust me I know it's just a game, and I don't loose sleep at nights worrying that some one on the other side of the planet has a contrary opinion to me. I just think that it's quite disturbing when individuals can justify attrocities fictional or not, and I enjoy a good political debate.

Anyway quilst I think that the CS supporters are more vocal with their propoga... whoops I mean opinion , I actually think that most posters are on our side, just look at the poll results...

[grandmaster z0b]

EDIT: not my fault stupid DEBUG error made me think the post hadn't worked so I did it again.

[Shin Kenshiro]

Last I heard, PCs weren't going into villages of innocent, unarmed CS villages and killing them for the crime of being a threat to precious "human" food and resources due to their longer lifespan.

Presumably, when these PCs do this sort of thing, these CS officers are either in the commission of doing these things, or known to be about to.

To me, that's a huge difference between the two. Your point is not entirely invalid, but I'm not sure moral equivalency can be drawn here.

On a personal note, if I were my Cyber Knight alter-ego, I would obey Lord Coake's edict not to enter the Tolkeen war, and would be outraged to hear of any knights taking part in the Sorcerers Revenge.

What about CS Rangers and Spec Ops? These guys and gals find themselves talking and hanging out with all kinds of D-Bees, and are reknowned as being the ones who develop feelings for them, or find their original beliefs challenged by the fact that they now see not all d-bees are evil. And these are the best of the best for the CS. It's not really like the military of today where they get shore leave to go out in town. It's almost like the CS soldiers are always confined to their bases or the great fortress cities. That right there makes it insanely hard to overcome any kind of propaganda and see the world as it is.

And am I the only one here who enjoys playing as a Coalition OCC? PC's aren't always peace-loving badasses who protect everyone. Just because they're not CS, doesn't make them angels. How many true protectors of the innocent are out there in PC Land? Let's here from you and maybe an instance of true selflessness. Not "saving the village because you just wanted to pick a fight with the CS" or "so you could steal a SAMAS". A real example of defending the weak for the simple reason that you could.

[NoJack]

Defend? Exploit was more like it. You can steal an awful lot of loot when multiple party members have supernatural PS.

Oh yeah there was that one time we saved a burning city, but that was more for kicks and giggles than anything else. In the Dog-eat-dog world of Rifts earth, why wouldn't you take advantage of anyone and everyone? The only character I ever had that was a genuine 'nice guy' (helped everyone and all that jazz) was saddled with the karmic power from the powers book. Adds a few bonuses and maybe one attack, but if I start to do Evil or just plain messed up stuff they all flip over to the negative. This was a control measure as I do have a 'destabilizing' effect on a game.

[dark brandon]

And am I the only one here who enjoys playing as a Coalition OCC? PC's aren't always peace-loving badasses who protect everyone. Just because they're not CS, doesn't make them angels. How many true protectors of the innocent are out there in PC Land? Let's here from you and maybe an instance of true selflessness. Not "saving the village because you just wanted to pick a fight with the CS" or "so you could steal a SAMAS". A real example of defending the weak for the simple reason that you could.

Actually, the only time I tend to play "hero" characters is when I play a CS soldier. These are some of the more fun ones I enjoy because all of my characters start off as what many would concider "the enemy". He's still of scrupulous alignment, but his thing is always wanting to protect his family. He usually doesn't question orders but does what he does hoping it'll make the world a better place for his family. From that point on, it's really up to how the game is played if my character is gonna be a "good" guy or "bad" guy. For example, one adventure had a human looking dbee end up killing half his squad. From that point on this character didn't trust anything. Another example was when another character was part of an invasion team to "purge a town of dirt". Come to find out there were only dwarves and a few elves. What made this very much fun was because he dare not betray the CS (cause his family lives in chi town, and if he betrays CS, who knows what they'd do to his family)...at the same time he couldn't bring himself to destory the town. The internal delema really made this character fun and unique.

I've had CS characters who've jumped to take a blast for a dog boy or psi-stalker, or who'd grab a dog boy or psi to use as a shield.

One of the things about CS is that they are very much like children. it very much depends on how the world outside the fortified walls will "mold" my characters. Unlike other characters who have a pre-determined outlook on life (Dragons tend to be anarchist, Mind melters are arrogant)...a cs soldier can really go with how the game is played.

Also, unlike other characters, a CS soldier doesn't have much outside his unit. He's not an MDC creature nor can he do MDC punches. He doesn't have magic to help or rarely psionics...no special juicer abilities or crazy strenght or bionic armor or psi-swords. So this means that he has to be careful to make sure the rest of the team "likes" him...and just so much other things like that.

[Shin Kenshiro]

IMHO the CS is a good idea with a bad leader, if they were more like the NGR they wouldnt have to spend as many recources

If they were like the Republic of Japan, they'd have long since stomped the FoM out of existence, Tolkeen wouldn't have gone evil, the NGR and the CS would be strong allies, and Lazlo might even be a Coalition State. Though if they were just more like the NGR, Tolkeen still wouldn't have gone all evil, Lazlo wouldn't have problems with the CS, the Xiticix would be getting anally raped by a combination of the CS, Lazlo, and even Tolkeen (Maybe). Overall, North America would be a hell of a lot safer, and nowhere near as cool a place to play a game in.

[NoJack]

Malignor wrote:

It's really hard for most people to see and accept it when they're caught in that kind of cliche. Just like how pretty much everyone thinks they're "good drivers" or "above average intelligence". It's a rare thing for someone to really assess themselves properly. Even more rare when they can assess others with any accuracy. Thus I don't point my finger at people (or groups) who make these kind of mistakes... all I can do is help them see it, help them through it or fight against them (without anger or hate, but with a sort of sighing paternal annoyance).

That's one of the reasons I don't label the whole CS (or their ways, or anything about them) as good or evil. I amb a screwed up human, and not qualified to judge people properly without proving myself a hypocrite (and an incompetent one at that). Those who do judge others are either somehow better than everyone else I've ever met... or they're making the same mistake I do from time to time.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ditto.

Really, we don't understand the plight of the people in our own world in our own day, how can we possibly expect to understand the lives, and dilemmas of people in a world so completely alien as Rifts Earth? Without understanding there can be no good judgement.

We are not fit to judge. Myself included.

You don't judge the guy at the end of your weapon, you put an end to him. That was your choice. His choices may have led him to being at the end of your (insert fav weapon here) but to actually put an end to him is all you. Your decision can be based on their actions or not but you do not judge. You only kill, or not.

[Dead Boy]

Sorry I haven't been around to participate here. It's been a busy week. Anyhoo, I found a few I felt warranted a reply.

Ok look at it this way, in our history any government that takes away a persons right to think and say what they want is overthrown, it ALWAYS happens. so the CS no matter how successful they are now will eventually fall apart. This is because Fascism is a system of government that denies the people control over their government and themselves, and throughout history, from Mussolini, Hitler and their eventual fall

Actually, yes, you're dead on right. In fact this prediction falls with in one of the predictions from Poor Yoric; That a champion of rights will rise in the public eye only to be slain, and a great revolution will be waged in his name. This is sure to cause the CS to go through a major change from a fascists state to a more democratic, free thinking one. However, this does not arbitrarily mean that the CS and it's people will eventually become accepting of aliens, demons and magic. Look at Free Quebec. They have a great deal of freedom and they are actually even more Pro- Human than the CS. They don't even allow Dog Boys in their nation! So much for the power of free speech and literacy.

And that moral blurring makes it okay, Malignor? It's been made clear by the books that the CS as an organization is evil. Just as Nazi Germany was evil, even though the average German probably wasn't.

“Morality” and “Ethics” are not as set in stone as you might think. Every society and every time has its own set of rules the define what is moral and ethical. In the time of Rifts, how moral and ethical would it be to betray your own people by consorting with the kind of creatures that at one time or another has slain your forefathers for sport, or has enslaved loved ones for profit? Or on a lesser sin, who ethical is it to allow others to take your food, land and possessions while your own people need those to live? I know these are extremist scenarios, but goes to the point of view a society like the CS would have. In a land where it ahs been “us vs. them” for 300 years the moral and ethical thing to do would be more so centered around what is good and beneficial to your people first and foremost, not the old whishy-washy “make love not war” sentiment of the 1960’s. Like I said before, it’s a POV thing that you have to put your self in their shoes to see.

Last I heard, PCs weren't going into villages of innocent, unarmed CS villages and killing them for the crime of being a threat to precious "human" food and resources due to their longer lifespan.

Presumably, when these PCs do this sort of thing, these CS officers are either in the commission of doing these things, or known to be about to.

Really? It's been my experience that most players will attack any CS personnel on sight regardless or whether they are in the middle of military activities, fixing a flat tire, or taking nap. They will try to kill Dead Boys without knowing what their motives are, what their personal feelings are, what good or bad they've done in the past, or without bothering to find out whether they are deserving of death or not. In so many ways, you guys are as quick to judge and every bit as prejudiced as you claim the CS to be. The only difference is you're secure you're always killing a "bad guy". Sound familiar, guys?

P.S. Erin Tarn could kick Karl Prosek's @$$!

Hmmm... that must be a type-o. Oh, I see! the "K" is right next to the "L".... Interesting point, but I don't think the two are on that friendly of terms.

[grandmaster z0b]

The Coalition States are a interesting villain in that they are not a black and white enemy. Does the end results in some coalition acts or policies good for humanity? A big yes on that .And do some of there activities even inadvertly help Deebees? Yep. Is the Coalition states by and large a Evil Empire? Yes.

All of these examples and more is why I feel The Coalition States are one of they better Rpg villains out there and frankly one of the better villains in fiction period.

I feel with the introduction of the separation of FQ from the CS showed the Emperors true colors. I feel that there ended the debate for the most part but not in its entirety.The Cs are in fact puppets of the Emperors plans it is that simple. His rhetoric is for self gratification and has nothing to do with saving humanity but building a kingdom for the emperor and his family line.

Perhaps with the elimination of the Prosek regime some true good could be forged for humanity. Humanitys ignorance in magic caused them to lose there domination over the Earth.Can ignorance in magic result in anything different for humanity this time around? I think not. In the end ignorance will be there undoing.Sadly majority of humanity in North America fall under CS influence.

Damn that was eloquently said, I totally agree and couldn't have put it better myself. I think this is the way most people would see the CS. Only a minority will blindly defend everything they do as being for "the greater good".

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Well, I can't really vote on this, the choices are far too limited.

Depends on the view point at which you are viewing the CS from.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that...

[dark brandon]

Selina: Will you marry me?

[grandmaster z0b]

Thanks for everyone's sensible and reasonable replies, there is nothing better than an intelligent debate.

I do differ in the pro Cs folks that say the Cs are not evil. There is a important points to note.Are the average citizens of the coalition states evil? I would say no. Are they ignorant of the world and government they support and love?Yes said goverment makes sure of it Is the goverment,policies and culture of the Cs evil. Oh yeah.I don't think anyone can make a logical argument that shooting a innocent and non hostile deebee child or adult in the head is ok or make a argument that the genocide of innocent beings is ok.Simply we all know it to be wrong and evil.These things and more are basic policy of the Cs state and there for make the Cs evil.

Here is where I agree, nothing will convince me that shooting innocents and genocide of D-Bees is legitimised, even if I do understand the perspective of brainwashed CS troopers.
By the same logic I could argue that the Gargoyle Empire or the Splugorth aren't evil as they are only doing what is best for their species

in a hostile situation where life and death struggle is not an interesting concept, but a daily fact...

Most CS personell are not in a day-to-day life and death struggle, whilst they may go into battle they still have all their day-to-day needs like food and shelter meet by the military so Maslow's heirarchy isn't as relevant. Otherwise I could argue that soldiers in Iraq are in the same situation as they are in a life or death situation, however they do not go around killing every non-american they see and justify it.

[grandmaster z0b]

Most CS personell are not in a day-to-day life and death struggle, whilst they may go into battle they still have all their day-to-day needs like food and shelter meet by the military so Maslow's heirarchy isn't as relevant. Otherwise I could argue that soldiers in Iraq are in the same situation as they are in a life or death situation, however they do not go around killing every non-american they see and justify it.

That was not well argued, z0b. You know why they do not go around killing every non-american?

(I'm a Canadian, so this isn't patriotism overriding my subjectivity)

1. <snip>

I think you miss-understand my point, Selina was using Maslow's heirarchy to justify the actions of CS soldiers. I was arguing that by putting it into perspective, Maslow's heirarchy only works if the person does not have basic human needs like food and shelter meet. I was poiting out that a CS soldier has both those needs meet and yet still acts uncivilised, whilst a US soldier is in an very similar situation because they are in a life threatening situation but do not resort to barbarism like the average CS soldier does.

I would wager that if they were colonists thriving in the wake of a demon invasion that wiped out a good chunk of the human population, it would be CS anti-D-bees all the way. Too many people would be violently against em, and the indifferent majority would get caught up in the mob. The pacifists would be the minority. "Study and learn about them when they're under our boot and we have our Earth back" would be the likely sentiment.

If we met non-humans on even ground, or they weren't already sitting on what we claim to be ours after a 300 year ordeal of darkness and death, then it would be far more sociable, even friendly.

Are we humans racists? Sometimes, and usually among the uneducated. Are we speciesists? Most of us are, because we don't know any better. But if we were educated about the aliens then that would change (supposedly like in Lazlo). Would we be speciesists if there were a real, genuine, deadly risk to meeting alien beings, reinforced by centuries of hell on Earth? The CS are uneducated and imbued with fear of the things out there, combatant and non-combatant alike. The flawed alternative I see from many anti-CS people (especially those who denounce the killing of non-combatants), while still keeping them as the CS, is this.

CS: "Hey you, freak on our spot of land. Earth is for Earthlings, so leave or we'll act accordingly."
DB: "Those guys are wierd. I hope they don't start trouble."
CS: "Well we gave you 24 hours, so bring out your warriors an we'll kill them all."
DB: "Okay, they seem to want a fight. Send out Gragthor. He'll clean them up"
[CS kills Gragthor and all warriors after a hard fight]
CS: "Okay we killed your warriors. Now leave!"
DB: "No! This is our home, and all we have left!"
CS: "Darn. All that's left looks like innocents and children. We can't harm them, because that will be bad. And they won't leave willingly, so I guess we're scrood. [sigh] On to the next village."
...

I really don't think your strange hypothetical situations are valid because there is little logic in the Dee Bees actions. Throughout history where all the soldiers of a town/society have been killed the women and children either give up or run. I cannot remember anytime when the women have decided to stay when being threatened by a hostile force like the CS.

I see the harming of innocents as a mandatory part of the CS' activity of taking back territory from the D-bees. If they burned down the village and escorted the people out of CS territory (a la Vietnam style), eventually the buildup outside CS borders would get so thick that the D-Bees (who all have a common enemy, the CS) would be an incredibly huge force to deal with. That's poor CS strategy. To be a successful expansionist and speciesist requires the killing of innocent non-humans. It's evil by the standards of a non-speciesist, for sure, but you're not a speciesist and have no reason to be.

Another situation that needs consideration is this. Suppose I alter the little skit above.

CS: "Hey you, freak on our spot of land. Earth is for Earthlings, so leave or we'll act accordingly."
DB: "Those guys are wierd. I hope they don't start trouble."
CS: "Well we gave you 24 hours, so bring out your warriors an we'll kill them all."
DB: "Okay, they seem to want a fight. Send out Gragthor. He'll clean them up"
[CS kills Gragthor and all warriors after a hard fight]
CS: "Okay we killed your warriors (with a few losses). Now leave!"
DB: "No! This is our home, and all we have left!"
CS: "Leave or die!"
DB: "Well, fellow shape-changing super-goons, it's time we shed this facade and let them know what we're made of. I'm tired of hiding is this ugly human form anyway."
[CS patrol gets splattered. The human families mourn just like those of the D-bee warriors. Tensions and mutual hatred rise. CS calls in an armored battalion and wipes the "demons" out. CS propaganda uses this example to show the horrors outside the walls of CS territory, that nothing can be trusted, and that death-dealing monsters will even take the form of an innocent child. The only solution: when ordered to shoot, shoot first and never ask questions]

An normal looking citizen in Iraq could be a militant strapped with explosives - ie a normal looking person could actually be very dangerous but that dosen't mean that the US goes around shooting every one. Isn't that one of the great justifications for the genocide of Dee Bees? That they could kill with magic and you couldn't tell so we better kill them all anyway? It's not really that valid.

Look I'm not trying to belittle you opinions, and I do understand the perspective of a CS soldier in the same way I understand the brainwashing of a Nazi soldier but I will never say either is justified or right.

The deliberate Genocide of anything is wrong no matter what the situation. I would fight and kill to defend myself and my family but I would never aggressively seek out and slaughter innocents no matter what.

[dark brandon]

CS in the future. How history students in the year 500 PA will view the CS after they win Rifts.

CS on Education: Because schools cost money, and most money was put into the army to keep people safe. We couldn't afford the education. This was later changed when Karl the second came in and most of north america had become free of all D-life forms. At this time, strickly propaganized books are sent out.

CS on it's genocide policy: (CS gives a description not unlike The US's policies toward native americans) Not real creative at the moment, sorry.

CS on Magic: People were playing with magic, but not really understanding what it was. It was years of research to realize that magic is the "life blood" of the planet. Everytime someone dies, they release some PPE into the Viens of the earth. SO everytime you cast magic, your esencially a necromancer. And that's always evil. (maybe)

CS on Dogboy treatment: They like it. No really, ask them.

A normal looking citizen in Iraq could be a militant strapped with explosives - ie a normal looking person could actually be very dangerous but that dosen't mean that the US goes around shooting every one. Isn't that one of the great justifications for the genocide of Dee Bees? That they could kill with magic and you couldn't tell so we better kill them all anyway? It's not really that valid.

Look I'm not trying to belittle you opinions, and I do understand the perspective of a CS soldier in the same way I understand the brainwashing of a Nazi soldier but I will never say either is justified or right.

The deliberate Genocide of anything is wrong no matter what the situation. I would fight and kill to defend myself and my family but I would never aggressively seek out and slaughter innocents no matter what.

The CS doesn't aggressively seek out and slaughter innocents.

They aggressively seek out and destory Monsters would would eat their children. Unfortunatly, these monsters can take the shape of a child/woman or a cute kitten.

You would fight and kill to defend your family and yourself. But at what point would you say "Ok, it's safe now"? When you "feel" you and your family is safe?

The CS has not reached that point where they can safely say, "we feel safe and secure, lets talk peace."

I have always maintained that "C.S fans" just think the coalition has cool crap. The stuff is effective in game terms,looks cool, plus the coalition is a interesting nation.So people like them for these reasons and will create "political spin" for CS simply for this reason.Which is good cause this is fun In truth we all know good from evil right from wrong and we all can put a spin on it but at the end of the day we all know better.Only exemption from this are the criminal insane and they get locked up until they are healthy again.

I like CS because to me, they represent exactly what would happen if this situation ever occured. It took us what...almost 200 years to finally accept that people with black skin are human and deservant of equal treatment as well? What makes you think it would only take 300 years for people to begin to accept other races as equals? CS is interesting because they arn't simple. In 300 years, CS is exactly what most humans would be. NGR would probably be the 500 year mark. And Lazlo maybe 1000 years after, but only after humans have adapted to the new magical world and have become MDC magic creatures.

CS is evil. Hum...Was George Washington evil? After all, he owned slaves...and that's probably just as bad, if not worse than simply killing. To americans, G. washington was a hero, USDA Prime Cut of man. You should read how they view washington from the british side of the atlantic. Non-heroic. Is America Evil? According to the majority of the world...yes. America has it's war-crimes as well. Even today. To me, even though GW owned slaves, he is a hero. He was right and good. To me, America is Good. We are the pinical of what society can evolve to. At the same time, america has done some pretty aweful things, Yes, we even attempted Genocide.

You prefer your cyber-knights as heros. Simple, easy. Black and white. I prefer my heros have depth. You played a CS soldier who did everything by the book. Not hard to play a villainious villain. What would have been much more fun was playing the soldier who remains loyal to CS, but doesn't gun down every dbee, and not going AWOL. Perhaps he can't go awol cause he has family living in chi-town and if he runs away, they will have to pay. So, he has to follow orders, but maybe he can make exceptions...what about if he runs his own platoon. In otherwords, play a game where the cards are stacked against you. A fallen cyberknight, that would be fun too. Having villagers come out and fawn over you, then at night, you kill a family just cause you had bad gas.

In the CS campaign I played, my character started as a grun, worked up the ranks and ended up having something like 10 dog boys, a psi-stalker and about 5 other humans in his group. But he was always a "good" guy. Never waisted dog boys lives. When question on if he was a "Mutant sympathizer" he mearly made a very compelling argument that he's really saved CS a whole bunch of money, and it had nothing to do for "the love of mutants". He ended up hideing a dbee child away during a bombing. He was caught by his men. He then had to sway them into not turning him in. There is much more pychological drama in such a game.