Alternate shooting rules

[Nekira Sudacne]

umm I hate to break it to you but hitting something really isn't all that hard. I know I've tried it at several ranges.

though hitting a moving target is more difficult that's represented in their dodge roll.

[Diamond Spear]

Shooting at a target at a target range is NOTHING like shooting at a target in combat. Hell it isn't anything like shooting a moving target. Tell you what, try going trap shooting and see how well you do. According to Palladium you should hit 80% of the time. I guarantee your hit percentage will be much lower than that. Now consider that those targets are not dodging and are just moving straight away from you and you should understand while many of us think it is ridiculously easy to hit using Palladium's system.

[Brian Manning]

Hitting a target during "qualifications", or target practice is one thing, but hitting a hostile target in the heat of battle with adrenaline rushing through your veins and laser pulses vaporizing large chunks of the Big Boss ATV you're taking cover behind is something different altogether.

But I do think that Matt's base "to hit" number should be 8, instead of 12. After all, I do want combat to end sometime, and if everyone and their mom has to roll a 20+ to hit anything then as a GM, I'd find myself giving the NPCs XP for "avoiding unnecessary violence"

Also, snipers should also be allowed to add their PP bonus if they're taking the time to set up a shot, since they've got to control their breathing, keep their aim true, and utilize proper body positioning and alignment.

[Brian Manning]

That's what hand-to-hand fighting is for!

lol, so HTH would remain unchanged? I figure if you change the base "to hit" to 8, then you could run the combat rules right across the board. After all, it's really not that easy to score a good solid hit in the heat of HTH battle (well, for the highly trained and skilled fighters it is, but that shows in their bonuses).

[Nekira Sudacne]

Shooting at a target at a target range is NOTHING like shooting at a target in combat. Hell it isn't anything like shooting a moving target. Tell you what, try going trap shooting and see how well you do. According to Palladium you should hit 80% of the time. I guarantee your hit percentage will be much lower than that. Now consider that those targets are not dodging and are just moving straight away from you and you should understand while many of us think it is ridiculously easy to hit using Palladium's system.

again, that's what their dodge roll is for. and there are already rules for hitting moving targets.

that's also why I think that the -10 rule is silly, already it takes HOW MANY hundreds of roudns to kill one enemy on average again?

[Brian Manning]

I like the idea of making HTH an 8 and ranged a 12. That gives you an incentive to run into combat and chop someone up, instead of standing next to each other and blasting.

Oh, so you're not aiming for realism with these rules, eh?

I like the rules, though. I was going to do something similar, but the called shot was going to be a modifier, instead of a different number, but your rules are simple and to the point, so I'll probably try them out (using 8 instead of 12 of course...I'm not going for realism either).

Now how are you handling cover? (nevermind, I just read that little blurb in your original post)

[Diamond Spear]

If the other arguments in this thread don't convince you then maybe this will: Remember those three New York cops who shot and killed the immigrant in the entryway to his apartment building? From a range of less than 15 feet, three well trained cops hit him a combined total of 18 times out of 45 shots fired. These were people who were well trained and proficient with their weapons. However, in a high stress situation, their marksmanship went from target range excellence to only hitting with 35% of their shots. And that was without anyone shooting back at them. Does that help explain why many of us think the combat system, as is, needs some tweaking?

[Nekira Sudacne]

If the other arguments in this thread don't convince you then maybe this will: Remember those three New York cops who shot and killed the immigrant in the entryway to his apartment building? From a range of less than 15 feet, three well trained cops hit him a combined total of 18 times out of 45 shots fired. These were people who were well trained and proficient with their weapons. However, in a high stress situation, their marksmanship went from target range excellence to only hitting with 35% of their shots. And that was without anyone shooting back at them. Does that help explain why many of us think the combat system, as is, needs some tweaking?

nope. I had that same thing happen in this game too. the players just rolled really crappy. it happens in the game as well as in real life.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No, it's not possible. A character with a WP in a weapon and firing at close range at an unmoving opponent with no cover will hit 95% of the time (missing only on a natural 1), unlike those cops who only hit 35% of the time. It's a system of too much certainty.

well, they didn't have WP's.

I think it would be FAR more reasonable of you to simply institute some sort of combat penalties for stress rather than change the basics.

after all, by YOUR system, you would only hit a stationary target 40% of the time, which is NOT true. in reality, only missing a stationary target 5% of the time IS accurate.

[Diamond Spear]

well, they didn't have WP's.

Um....yes they did. In order to become a police officer you have to qualify with a handgun. In other words you are taught in the academy WP: Auto Pistol. Besides, according to Palladium's rules the only effect of not having a WP is that you do not get the plus three bonus to hit. There are no negative modifiers.

[Nekira Sudacne]

well, they didn't have WP's.

Um....yes they did. In order to become a police officer you have to qualify with a handgun. In other words you are taught in the academy WP: Auto Pistol. Besides, according to Palladium's rules the only effect of not having a WP is that you do not get the plus three bonus to hit. There are no negative modifiers.

I ment the characters I mentioned, not the policmen

[Diamond Spear]

I ment the characters I mentioned, not the policmen

Ok but you still have not addressed the point that 3 trained individuals, under combat type stress hit only 35% of the time. Doesn't that illustrate for you why many of us think it is far to easy to hit in Palladium?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I ment the characters I mentioned, not the policmen

Ok but you still have not addressed the point that 3 trained individuals, under combat type stress hit only 35% of the time. Doesn't that illustrate for you why many of us think it is far to easy to hit in Palladium?

people **** up, it happens. and no it dosn't.

remember, people in combat mess up, it's a combnation of adrenaline and fear. the difficulty of the shot is the same as the range, but their ABILITY suffers (peanalties)

but the characters in rifts are supposed to be heros, who keep their cool under fire and and dont' get all antsy in combat and screw up roayally like that.

your supposed to be the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

[BigLEE]

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police have found their miss rates, in real world shootings, to be around 88% NYPD had a miss rate of 85%. The FBI bragged their miss rate was only 60%.

[Vrykolas2k]

again, that's what their dodge roll is for. and there are already rules for hitting moving targets.

that's also why I think that the -10 rule is silly, already it takes HOW MANY hundreds of roudns to kill one enemy on average again?

The dodge roll is only for attacks that you see coming and have attacks left to attempt a dodge, not to mention the -10 rule making it impossible to dodge anyway. If the target has no idea the attack is coming, there is no dodge, which means they get hit way to often. The bonuses to hit way, way out number the penalties, IMO.

Another thing that bugs me is range. If you have a laser rifle that has an effective range of 2000 feet, doesn't that mean you have to beat an 8 instead of a 4, even out to that range? That's just silly....without a scope, or them jumping up and down and waving their arms, you probably can't even see the target.

I do agree that the amount of damage required to defeat armor or natural MDC is way too high, but then that's when we get into the plausability argument, and I already know where you stand.

Okay, so I read the dodge rule as a straight -10? So why even have a dodge bonus...?

[Drakenred®™©]

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police have found their miss rates, in real world shootings, to be around 88% NYPD had a miss rate of 85%. The FBI bragged their miss rate was only 60%.

the FBI tends to be in more situations where a marksman/sniper is the one making the shot. when you break it down between Feild officer and sniper well, the snipers slighly behind Los Angelis Swat team snipers, and their average Feild officer using a sidearm averages 86%.

[Vrykolas2k]

Okay, so I read the dodge rule as a straight -10? So why even have a dodge bonus...?

Why have a dodge bonus? Cause you need it for melee attacks?

The -10 with no bonuses does effectively eliminate it, unless you happen to be one of the few "special" classes. Lame, IMHO.

Strange... i tend to Parry rather than Dodge melee...

[Dead Boy]

If you want a nice alternative to the standard ranged
combat rules, check out the Ranged Combat article
in Rifter #11.

There are 4 different types similar to different HtH
skill levels.

You gain bonuses (and your target gains penalties)
as your advance in level, similar to HtH.

It's a really cool system with a bunch of new techniques.

I would like to second the use of the ranged combat rules from Rifter #11. One of the best Rifter articles ever, in my opinion.

Yea, I was quite pleased with how well those optional rules in Rifter 11 turned out, though, as Noon correctly pointed out, the "Pinning Fire" maneuver didn't work as intended. But otherwise, everyone who's tried the supplemental rules really like them.

And for all you interested in getting a the Optional Ranged Combat Rules article, go the site's store and get your copy of Rifter 11 now becasue quatities are limited and Palladium isn't making any more of Rifters 1 through 12. So bust out that credit card and get to it!

[KillWatch]

How is this

Close Range 5
Medium Range 10
Long Range 15

modifiers
Penalties: -1/7mph or Spd 10

I use Speed inspired by TMNT using a dodge bonus of +1 every 10 pts

obviously you are going to need more penalties depending on the size of the object like
+1 for every foot below normal human size for close range
or -1 for every foot above

+2, -1 for medum range
+3, -1 for long range

so hitting a 1' sign at 10 feet would need a roll of 9 or better
at 100' would need 14 or better
at 1000' would need 19 or better

[Hav0k]

Yea, I was quite pleased with how well those optional rules in Rifter 11 turned out, though, as Noon correctly pointed out, the "Pinning Fire" maneuver didn't work as intended. But otherwise, everyone who's tried the supplemental rules really like them.

And for all you interested in getting a the Optional Ranged Combat Rules article, go the site's store and get your copy of Rifter 11 now becasue quatities are limited and Palladium isn't making any more of Rifters 1 through 12. So bust out that credit card and get to it!

For all of those who actually have these rules, I want to ask:

1. Dead boy, why "Pinning Fire" does not work as intended?

2. In the description of "Leading" it is mentioned that there is a standard penalty of -3 to hit moving targets moving slower than 40mph and -6 to targets moving over it....
Where is this in the books???? Did I miss this rule at all??? If I am correct, the -3 corresponds to "8 to strike at long ranged" (since 8 - 3 = 5, which is over the standard 1-4 roll to hit), but what about the -6? (using the same logic, 10 - 6 = 4..... this does not match)....

[Borast]

that's also why I think that the -10 rule is silly, already it takes HOW MANY hundreds of roudns to kill one enemy on average again?

Oh, about 0.01% of a hundred...

Personally, I like the -10 to dodge rule (and it's reduced penalty for dodging bullets alone).

[Dead Boy]

For all of those who actually have these rules, I want to ask:

1. Dead boy, why "Pinning Fire" does not work as intended?

The ability can be abused and turn a burst into a large area effect attack that doesn't really require a "to hit" to be rolled. The only way to not be hit is to use a melee action to dodge against a pre-rolled number. The intent of the ability was to simulate the action of pinning down an enemy who's already behind cover, making it unhealthy to come out. Should he stick his head out, he gets shot. However, the Pinning Fire ability lacks the restrictions to limit it to that function alone.

2. In the description of "Leading" it is mentioned that there is a standard penalty of -3 to hit moving targets moving slower than 40mph and -6 to targets moving over it....
Where is this in the books???? Did I miss this rule at all??? If I am correct, the -3 corresponds to "8 to strike at long ranged" (since 8 - 3 = 5, which is over the standard 1-4 roll to hit), but what about the -6? (using the same logic, 10 - 6 = 4..... this does not match)....

Don't fret. Lots of people overlook it in the Main Book. Check out pg. 243 and there it shal be.

[Hav0k]

The ability can be abused and turn a burst into a large area effect attack that doesn't really require a "to hit" to be rolled. The only way to not be hit is to use a melee action to dodge against a pre-rolled number. The intent of the ability was to simulate the action of pinning down an enemy who's already behind cover, making it unhealthy to come out. Should he stick his head out, he gets shot. However, the Pinning Fire ability lacks the restrictions to limit it to that function alone.

Now I get it.... and you are right. But I think this can be changed or managed by the GM in order to prevent that abuse, and still use those rules, since they are REALLY great. Besides, the character only gets it until Level 11 if I remember... I wish I had a character with that level!! !

Don't fret. Lots of people overlook it in the Main Book. Check out pg. 243 and there it shal be.

Right again... Thank you. That big "Revolvers" title for the paragraph is very misleading.

I still find a lot of rules mentioned everywhere in different books and I get confused. Not to mention that I got Chaos Earth, and there you find *yet more* rules and interpretations for ranged weapons....

For those how have that book.... did you notice that after mentioning that you need 5 or more at close range for stationary targets, 8 for long range stationary targets, and 10 for moving targets, you find a whole paragraph clearly mentioning that you need a 12 or more to hit a moving target? (and I am not mentioning other examples appearing as you keep reading...)

Where do they get all these? They keep changing things in every book, and I am still confused!!

[Dead Boy]

For those how have that book (Chaos Earth).... did you notice that after mentioning that you need 5 or more at close range for stationary targets, 8 for long range stationary targets, and 10 for moving targets, you find a whole paragraph clearly mentioning that you need a 12 or more to hit a moving target? (and I am not mentioning other examples appearing as you keep reading...)

Where do they get all these? They keep changing things in every book, and I am still confused!!

I don't have Chaos Earth as of yet, (it's on my shopping list), but it sounds to me like those rules were Cut & Paste from the Revised Conversion Book 1 put out a year or so back. Just pick and chose what works best for you from any and all of the various books and go with that.