Are you getting sick of one eyed CS supporters?

[Zer0 Kay]

Leaders follow a different set of morals than those that follow them. Or rather leaders can't allow their morals to hinder them from doing what needs to be done.

Kill one man and you are a murderer. Kill millions and you are a conquerer. Kill everyone and you are a God. --Jean Rostand

However, when one man is the Nation and his needs out weigh the needs of his people and his morals are decreed to be those that everyone MUST have and he is evil then the nation is evil.

Just because the Proseks show love or care for someone doesn't mean that they're good. The abiliity to show emotions and act on them are not relagated to the rightious.

As it says in an old Dragon Magazine. Because a Lawful Good Palladin comes home after a bad day and kicks his dog doesn't make him evil. A Chaotic Evil Necromancer that helps a single old lady cross a street isn't good.

[Vrykolas2k]

I am going to disagree with you on that any Paladin who kicks his dog is as evil as the come and he desrves to be placed on the rack

An interesting view point. I am curious as to your opinion of this scenario

A CS soldier comes home from "work" and on his way sees a Elf(D-Bee) Toddler. He rifle butts its head(no need to waste ammo), killing the child. Is he evil?

I am not looking for every Die Hard, Karl Prosek is GOD supporter to come out of the wood work here in defense of the Coalition. (Hmm actually that they would feel the need to defend themselves would say a lot...) I am simply interested in Lynx8882s view on the above situation based on his reply to the Palladin Vs Dog scenario.

Miscreant or Diabolic I'd say... as for the one-eyed supporters... let's put out the other eye!!!

[Zer0 Kay]

An interesting view point. I am curious as to your opinion of this scenario

A CS soldier comes home from "work" and on his way sees a Elf(D-Bee) Toddler. He rifle butts its head(no need to waste ammo), killing the child. Is he evil?

I am not looking for every Die Hard, Karl Prosek is GOD supporter to come out of the wood work here in defense of the Coalition. (Hmm actually that they would feel the need to defend themselves would say a lot...) I am simply interested in Lynx8882s view on the above situation based on his reply to the Palladin Vs Dog scenario.

I'd say that he is not nice. However there are far more evil things that he could have done. Many did in Viet Nam and they are not evil, why because they regret it. A good person may do something "evil" but will regret it and likely try to atone for it. An evil person wouldn't care. I guess with that comment I'd have to say you can't tell from that scenario you'd have to be able to know how it effects him.

No amount of training can teach a human to view another humanoid as something low enough to kill without remorse.

[Zer0 Kay]

The CS soldier honestly thinks that his/her actions are making a difference for the greater good. Even if they are killing what they consider to be another person who has a right to live, it's an unfortunate and grisly necessity. Sure, the CS may be malicious enjoying the death, and that is what those the "evil" CS soldiers feel, but I would say that they are not the norm. I think that most see the D-bees as "things" that are less than human and their life means little to the importance of human expansion. They feel as bad as they would if they had to kill monkeys or bears. Good aligned soldiers try to do their job as painlessly as possible, and let a few of the cuter ones "escape" outside the borders when they can. Selfish ones grit their teeth and do their job because it's in their best interests. Evil ones enjoy it. People are people, even when they're brainwashed.

I completely agree with you except for their view on D-bees. Maybe some of the CS view D-Bees as any soldier would view any other soldier. They are an enemy that must be removed in order to secure your objective. This is even more intensified by the fact that your objective is your home. The soldiers pride strengthened with the thought that when the CS secures North America it will be the stronghold from which mankind will take back their world, therefore he is a part of the salvation of mankind.

The Proseks most likely also have propaganda that shows or says that d-bee women and children are know to take up arms against soldiers. So rather than risking their safety CS grunts just kill on sight. After all who would be so dastardly as to use women and children as soldiers? Oh wait I recall some Asian countries doing that.

So again I say neither side in a war is necessarily right but they may both be wrong. Using women and children as soldiers isn't evil if it's your homes that are being invaded. On the other hand killing women and children although distasteful to many isn't evil if they are indangering your life. So to most people the difference between good, selfish and evil is how it effects the person (ie murder g=remorse, s=apathy, e=joy).

The measure of good and evil is by the majority of a culture just as time, religion and science is. Once the majority accepts something as right then it is good. Universally well the Universe doesn't give a damn. In Palladium...well that's measured by the GM. However as for the great creator the CS IS EVIL because he measured it by his standards. Guess what though...he's probably not your GM.

Oh and as far as the coment that a Palladin wouldn't kick his dog. If it's in PFRPG don't forget all the Palladin is, is an elite knight. If your talking D&D and Lawful good. Remember that the first part of the alignment is how they follow local laws (laws of the land) or their view of the importance of the individual (chaotic) or the majority (lawful). The second is their value of life. Lawful Good is Defined as "Order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good and that good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest." So kicking a dog would not be unthinkable especially after all your friends just got dismembered infront of you and you were stripped of all your earthly belongings unable to do anything.

Side note for those of you that played AD&D Chaotic Evil isn't the most evil alignment, it would best fit into Palladium's Selfish catagory. The worst is Neutral evil, when you have no law to follow and don't care about anyone including yourself and do as you will without thought of life that is Diabolic. Chaotic Evil wants to control, Neutral Evil wishes to destroy.

[Shin Kenshiro]

congratulations guys....

you have taken a topic that was once one man's annoyance with people who support the CS blindly and turned it into something that will now most likely give birth to yet another Coalition OCC....the monster psychologist.

"So now do you understand why in the end you have no control over your desires to kill and maim?"

"No...I do it because it's fun"

"Ah, but don't you see? You only consider it fun because you're trying to rationalize why you must act upon your violent and anti-social urges. It's not fun, merely a mental excuse"

"No really, it's fun. Watch....."

"Why are you holding my heaAAAAAHHHH!!!" *RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIP*

"hehehe....see? Fun"

[dark brandon]

My view of the "inherent evil of demons" lies in their awareness of the importance, the effect and the morality of their actions. I also concede that they are capable of making choices to do acts which would be seen as "good". They can make moral decisions and are sentient. However, if a demon were to try and be a benevolent individual, they could probably only do so for a few moments... to them, being "good" (helpful, merciful or kind without motives for short-term personal gain) is like us learning to walk on our hands: It can be done with practice, and done occasionally, but it's extremely awkward and quite pointless unless it's for a special situation. Demons are inherently evil because it is their default behaviour. You and I are born as slaves to our own body chemistry and hard-wired instincts and behaviour patterns, but have some degree of decision making power to keep it under control and even override that default behaviour. Demons also have that, but are somewhat more controlled by their id than us.

That still sounds like a shallow imitation of what humans regard as sentience and free choice. No creature truly capable of formal-rationality would be so limited in moral choice. Thus, we are to assume that the "demons" are not fully sentient (perhaps analogous to primates or porpoises), and perhaps an alignment should not be attributed to them (if it truly is "just their biology").

Actually, demons have the ability to make moral choices. Given we are talking about the entire Megaverse here, or at least how it pertains to "RL", in mystic china, there is a reformed demon, who after reaching 10th level, becomes human. So, they at least do have the ability to go beyond and have a much larger array of moral choices.

Perhaps many choose not to. Of the many things that morality does, it also allows us to distribue and avoid punishment. Are people moral because they want to be, or because they fear from the punishment? What if punishment was abolished or near non-existant? Perhaps these are what the demons embody since they have little to fear. Without punishment, there is no morality?

[Zer0 Kay]

That still sounds like a shallow imitation of what humans regard as sentience and free choice. No creature truly capable of formal-rationality would be so limited in moral choice. Thus, we are to assume that the "demons" are not fully sentient (perhaps analogous to primates or porpoises), and perhaps an alignment should not be attributed to them (if it truly is "just their biology").

sen·tient
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious: “The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage” (T.E. Lawrence).
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.

Even Primates and dolphins are sentient. It's a matter of scale.

[Zer0 Kay]

Actually, demons have the ability to make moral choices. Given we are talking about the entire Megaverse here, or at least how it pertains to "RL", in mystic china, there is a reformed demon, who after reaching 10th level, becomes human. So, they at least do have the ability to go beyond and have a much larger array of moral choices.

Perhaps many choose not to. Of the many things that morality does, it also allows us to distribue and avoid punishment. Are people moral because they want to be, or because they fear from the punishment? What if punishment was abolished or near non-existant? Perhaps these are what the demons embody since they have little to fear. Without punishment, there is no morality?

Maybe it isn't as simple as punishment. It could be fear of the effect. If there was no punishment for shooting a romantic rival maybe you would but then again maybe the girl your after abores violence. Now if you are considering any negative effect a punishment rather than those negative effects brought on by a set of rules then I'd have to consede you'd probably be right. If there was no negative effects to any action people would do what ever they wanted. However you can't break the rules of physics or nature. I may want to try and fly but I won't throw myself off a cliff to see if it happens. There's also a question of skill. I may want a nose job but I can't do it myself. So as long as it is possible within my skill and the laws of physics and nature then yea I'd probably do it. That kind of drifted, what I'm trying to say is that there are negative effects to breaking the "moral" codes that society may not punish. I guess that would be breaking the rules of common sense.

[Benito Pulatso]

Speaking as a conservative myself, I cannot say that the CS would be attractive to conservatives, for the simple fact that a free market economy would weaken the government's control on the people. Remember, "Less government, more individual liberty" is the mantra of the mainstream conservative, and the CS is anything but.

When you really look at it, Facism is really more a methodology than an ideology. It's really strange to me that the National Social Worker's Party (you know, the Nazis) have somehow been turned into extreme right wingers in the world consciousness. It's a "socialist workers" party, folks. It's a Socialist mindset, and therefor nearer to Communism than anything else.

[Capt. Meschievitz]

lol

[Zer0 Kay]

Speaking as a conservative myself, I cannot say that the CS would be attractive to conservatives, for the simple fact that a free market economy would weaken the government's control on the people. Remember, "Less government, more individual liberty" is the mantra of the mainstream conservative, and the CS is anything but.

When you really look at it, Facism is really more a methodology than an ideology. It's really strange to me that the National Social Worker's Party (you know, the Nazis) have somehow been turned into extreme right wingers in the world consciousness. It's a "socialist workers" party, folks. It's a Socialist mindset, and therefor nearer to Communism than anything else.

That's funny I thought "Less government, more individual liberty" is the mantra of the Libertarian and that conservative was synonymous with Republican. As I recall the current Republican Conservative in the White House is trying to take civil liberties away from people.

You realize we (the U.S.) are the closest country to pure communism? Not the tag that we gave the Russians but the true meaning of the term. A government by the community for the greater good of the community. The founding fathers (esp. Ben Franklin and George Washington) got some of their ideas from the Iroquois Confederacy. Most tribal cultures are Communistic. I'm not saying the U.S. is tribal but a lot of the Constitution is written for the greater good of our community. The "community" is just expanding.


I think all the labels have need to be reevaluated and redone. Communism isn't communism it's Elitism. Our Democratic party hasn't done anything to further democracy, we're still in a Democratic Republic.