The Gunslinger and HtH: Commando

[Jason Richards]

The Gunslinger, and some other O.C.C.'s in New West (and other World Books) can take Hand to Hand: Commando. What do you think about this option? Is it spreading the use of that skill too far, or is it justifiable?

[Vrykolas2k]

I can see it for the CS OCCs, and for the Staphra Warrior chix, but for the most part... giving the new HtH to everyone and his dog is a touch much.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

i like playing gunslingers, and the idea of having an automatic dodge at level 5 is just too good to refuse. so i say leave it!

[Dead Boy]

I have NEVER liked that aspect of New West. HtoH Comando should be reserved for those few OCCs that have had extensive training warranting them to be the best of the best. Gunfighters and Saloon Girls fail to justify this criterium. And thier explanation of "yea, but have you ever seen those guys move in the movies?" always struck me wrong. If they wanted to give a few of the New West OCCs the abitly to Auto Dodge, then they should have made it as an OCC special abiltiy attainable at level X and not just throw about the most advanced form of Hand to Hand available on the North American continent like it were the Boxing skill that darn near any loser can get on a whim.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Against it, for reasons already stated by others.

[Dead Boy]

thier explanation of "yea, but have you ever seen those guys move in the movies?" always struck me wrong.

Did Kevin write this book? Kevin Siembieda? The -10 to dodge guy? He wants us to move like in the movies?

I believe it was in one of the Q&A sections of either this website or the Rifters. Not certain which.

[Svartalf]

I have NEVER liked that aspect of New West. HtoH Comando should be reserved for those few OCCs that have had extensive training warranting them to be the best of the best. Gunfighters and Saloon Girls fail to justify this criterium. And thier explanation of "yea, but have you ever seen those guys move in the movies?" always struck me wrong..

Actually ... I think you may forget one justifying factor : the New West is again the Frontier, the area where Civilization meets the wilderness... and on Rifts earth, we know how dangerous this can be... only makes sense for people living in such dangerous country to be superior fighters, even without the advantage of fraining facilities and schools.

[Svartalf]

thier explanation of "yea, but have you ever seen those guys move in the movies?" always struck me wrong.

Did Kevin write this book? Kevin Siembieda? The -10 to dodge guy? He wants us to move like in the movies?

Actually, I guess that the movie like stuff comes from Kornmann

[Mack]

Against it. Gotta agree with Dead Boy.

[Jason Richards]

... the New Westers take a beating on this board...

That's because they get entirely too many skills. Gunslinger gets 24 at first level (counting Exper HtH as two), in addition to sharpshooter and other "special" skills. The sherriff and deputy each get 28! And, many have the option of upping to HtH Commando, getting paired pistols, and sharpshooting. A Rogue Scholar only gets 32 and a Rogue Scientist 29 at first level. There are other classes that get more than those in New West for sure (Cyber-Knight and Wilderness Scout come to mind), but it's the availability of things like Sharpshooting, Paired Weapons, and HtH: Commando that puts it over the top.

[Svartalf]

But New West... what ever happened to classic western uneducated yokels?

You'll notice that in most cases, the skills of the new westers are practical or professional in orientation : just things they know how to do, nothing to do with any education, likelihood is they can't even read

[Jason Richards]

But New West... what ever happened to classic western uneducated yokels?

You'll notice that in most cases, the skills of the new westers are practical or professional in orientation : just things they know how to do, nothing to do with any education, likelihood is they can't even read

I'm going to have to disagree there. The Gunslinger has Basic Electronics, Find Contraband, Military Intelligence, Interrogation, Palming, and Prowl to start.

Most of those skills are learned/educated/trained skills. None of them make any sense for the class.

[Svartalf]

I'm going to have to disagree there. The Gunslinger has Basic Electronics, Find Contraband, Military Intelligence, Interrogation, Palming, and Prowl to start.

Most of those skills are learned/educated/trained skills. None of them make any sense for the class.

So he's able to do simple electrical wiring? here in France that's the kind of skill you teach in trade schools to kids to dumb to even graduate high school.

All the others are strictly savoir faire, street/criminal skills with nothing to do with formal education ...

I never said those guys had not been around and learned a couple tricks ... maybe they can't be entirely self learned, but they come mostly from hands on experience and from not dying during the learning process.

Also, I notice that while the slinger is conspicuously lacking the literacy skill.

[Jason Richards]

So he's able to do simple electrical wiring? here in France that's the kind of skill you teach in trade schools to kids to dumb to even graduate high school.

sure, but in the post-apocalyptic world where every day is a struggle to survive, this hardened-by-life professional gunman takes time out to learn to rewire a car stereo?

All the others are strictly savoir faire, street/criminal skills with nothing to do with formal education ...

Maybe some of them are (thought you'll have to work hard to convince me that anyone can just "pick up" Military Intelligence on the street), but are these skills so vital that EVERY Gunslinger has them? Sure a slinger might want to learn Interrogation... it has some good applications. But, how is this skill vital to being a Gunslinger?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have this question for you all who are aginst it:

why was HtH Commando restiricted to begin with?

[Jason Richards]

I have this question for you all who are aginst it:

why was HtH Commando restiricted to begin with?

Because that level of expertise at distributing death and destruction can only be learned by very, very few... and taught by even fewer.

[Jason Richards]

Quite right. That's military grade special forces training. Not just any schmoe can learn it.

Reinforcing this yet again... it's got freakin' auto-dodge. I don't care how rough you had it growing up, or how much you practice. This is something only a SF military course can teach, if only for the sake of game balance.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

i love it that Gunslingers can pilot robots and power armor too.

[Nekira Sudacne]

well another question here for you all:

who in the CS first created HtH Commando? people arnt' born knowing how to fight, are they? no, but some people DO have natural talent. and the techniques in one can be figured out independently of anyone else. how else is ANY form of martial arts created?

what one person can figure out how to do, so can another . . . completely independant of each-other.

note, I'm not saying that the way the 'slingers fight has the same techniques at ALL of the Commandos and SF guys in the coaltition, but the effects are similar enough to to just use the same chart rather than give it a different name but had everything else the same.

[Shin Kenshiro]

well another question here for you all:

who in the CS first created HtH Commando? people arnt' born knowing how to fight, are they? no, but some people DO have natural talent. and the techniques in one can be figured out independently of anyone else. how else is ANY form of martial arts created?

what one person can figure out how to do, so can another . . . completely independant of each-other.

note, I'm not saying that the way the 'slingers fight has the same techniques at ALL of the Commandos and SF guys in the coaltition, but the effects are similar enough to to just use the same chart rather than give it a different name but had everything else the same.

Ok, here. Let me give you all an example of just how hard something like this would be.

In the Marines, we underwent numerous hand-to-hand styles. A couple of years ago, they finally unveiled the most effective military fighting style taught to the main forces of the US (No one say Krav, that's Israeli) that most of us dubbed "Semper Fu". BUT, the key is this. In order to CREATE a fighting style that many people could learn and yet still remain a LETHAL style, they spent years developing it with combat veterans, martial arts masters (How many of those are there in Rifts again? I forget...maybe someone can point out how KS said they were everywhere), and tacticians among others to develop an easy and short to learn fighting style that remained highly lethal.

Now, my point is this, how many Gunfighters do you imagine gathering round and sparring hand to hand with each other? Much like Expert and Martial Arts as HtH skills aren't clearly defined, the Gunfighter w/ HtH MA won't look like he's been training in a dojo. He'll look like a skilled streetfighter. Hand to Hand Commando is very much about killing with your bare hands very fast. It preserves the element of surprise, your stealth, and enables you to move on to the next target much faster.

How the hell is a CS Commando, let alone a CS Close Combat Instructor, going to get this wild idea to leave the protection of the CS and go live out west. CS territory ain't easy living, so why go even further into damnation?

[Nekira Sudacne]

There is no reason why a top-notch fighter can't have a "style" simillar to commando. Instead of learning it at a school, he picked it up here and there, adding to his repertoire.

That's how modern commando-type combat was developed in the various militaries to begin with.

thanks DWK, you summed up my point better than I could have

[Svartalf]

I have this question for you all who are aginst it:

why was HtH Commando restiricted to begin with?

Because that level of expertise at distributing death and destruction can only be learned by very, very few... and taught by even fewer.

Quite right. That's military grade special forces training. Not just any schmoe can learn it.

Because to you a gunslinger ... a ultra highly competent specialist in guns and fighting is "just a schmoe"? you must be mistaking with the saddle tramp there...

Granted, it their case, the combat skill is mostly self trained rather than taught by drill sergeants (who are more commonly restricted to Expert HtH anyway, even if there's a fair number who know MA or Assassin) ... still, those guys are survivors and fighters in a region where life is DANGEROUS, and survival a combat, and they stand out among the people of the West ... I'm not surprised their skill equals that of the best

[Svartalf]

It should not be allowed.
[SNIP}
It was a definite oversight on KS's part.

Actually ... I think it was Kev's idea... I'm not sure that Kornmann had access to CWC or preparation documents for it while writing his manuscript ... so I'm not sure he would have even known of the existence of HtH Commando at the time.

Anyway, if I believe the way MaryAnn told us Kev "toned down" some of Carella's offerings, I don't think he would have let something of that order pass.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It should not be allowed.
[SNIP}
It was a definite oversight on KS's part.

Actually ... I think it was Kev's idea... I'm not sure that Kornmann had access to CWC or preparation documents for it while writing his manuscript ... so I'm not sure he would have even known of the existence of HtH Commando at the time.

Anyway, if I believe the way MaryAnn told us Kev "toned down" some of Carella's offerings, I don't think he would have let something of that order pass.

ummmm . . . New West was by Bill Coffin. . . to my Knowlage Carella had nothing to do with it

[Svartalf]

ummmm . . . New West was by Bill Coffin. . . to my Knowlage Carella had nothing to do with it

I understand your mistake : I made the same until I actually looked in the book. Bill Coffin had nothing officially to do with New West, it was done by a guy called Chris Kornmann (unless that was Coffin's pseudonym?) .

And I never said Carella was involved, this happened after he left. I just said that if Kevin did some major tone down on Carella's work, it is unlikely he would have left major HtH munchkinnery pass in somebody else's work

[Dustin Fireblade]

It should not be allowed.
[SNIP}
It was a definite oversight on KS's part.

Actually ... I think it was Kev's idea... I'm not sure that Kornmann had access to CWC or preparation documents for it while writing his manuscript ... so I'm not sure he would have even known of the existence of HtH Commando at the time.

Anyway, if I believe the way MaryAnn told us Kev "toned down" some of Carella's offerings, I don't think he would have let something of that order pass.

ummmm . . . New West was by Bill Coffin. . . to my Knowlage Carella had nothing to do with it

No Kornman wrote New West, Bill Coffin as I recall didn't even like Rifts; and you kinda missed the point there made by svartalf regarding Carella.

At any rate Shin Kenshiro makes a pretty good point.

[GaredBattlespike]

I agree with Shin Kenshiro! I see this as a serious problem. The Gunslinger O.C.C. is a highly specialized fighter. It makes no sense to me why a warrior who is training to be "the fastest gun" in the New West, to waste his/her time in an esoteric, extremely rare, and unrelated combat technique. I can see the Gunslinger O.C.C. would learn Basic, or Expert or even(maybe) Assassin Hand-to-Hand, but not Martial Arts-much less Commando!!!

[Svartalf]

At any rate Shin Kenshiro makes a pretty good point.

I don't rightfully agree... Semper fu has the potential for being a great fighting technique ... but I'm not sure most students get out of training with more than equivalent Expert HtH ... a great fighter is not just a matter of technique... it also takes gift and dedication to fully profit from the teaching.

Also... I'm just not sure that Martial arts designe by committee are the best ... sure they focus on the "best" techniques, but the result tend to be bland and predictable... just the reverse of what a really good fighter is.

Also, I remark that the greatest fighters in history seem to have been at least in part self taught, and that those of them that had received formal training did not stay true to it and went on to develop their own, idiosyncratic and "superior" school.

[Nekira Sudacne]

guys. . . why do you think these Gunslingers wouldn't be interested in being great in unarmed combat AS WELL AS the fastest gun in the west.

anyone with half a brain want's to be good in both.

[Nekira Sudacne]

What Shin is referring to is likely LINE training, developed by Gunnery Sergeant Donvito. Gunney Donvito is retired from the Marines now, but he runs a school just outside of Fort Bragg and LINE is taught to Special Forces and others in USASOC. I m'self went through and am qualified as a Basic LINE Instructor.

The point is there are certain philosophies that are involved in various martial arts. What sets aside LINE and forms like Russian sambo is that instead of self-defense and brawling, their intent is that it is aimed at other soldiers, in gear, with both individuals dead tired, and with the intent that when all is said and done if everything is done right the other person is dead very quickly. Lethality and viciousness is stressed from the start. Not to incapacitate, not to restrain, but to kill. Since there are not an abundance of professional militaries out in the New West, and amoung those even less with a professional special operations component, training in something like H-t-H: Commando should be far rarer then someone picking up say Martial Arts. And those that do teach H-t-H out in New West, by and large the object will be to survive a bar room brawl or beat up the toughs in the street, not sentry elimination and techniques and mindsets taught for battlefield fighting. The New West's various gunfighter OCCs should get along just fine with Martial Arts as the top end H-t-H method starting out.

Also Svartalf is correct, new recruits are not going to be landing 1-2 hit killing blows. But that's what the levels of progression are for as they become better trained. As a 'basic' LINE instructor I figure the closest approximation would 4-6 lvl on H-t-H: Commando. Yeah, I still know a number of moves which will end in a leathality, but it's gonna take me a bit more then the 1-2 hits simulated by the Death Blow rule.

actually, in the new west, anytime a gunslinger and has to resort to HtH, he's likely to run into JUST the kind of situation LINE was developed for. hense, the ones that survive are the ones that know it. . .

[Svartalf]

Thanks Morgan ... you precisely make my point.

As I said, it is unlikely, that a slinger would actually have been trained in Commando HtH ... on the other hand, whatever his initial HtH training may have been, it is quite likely that he would have striven on his own to go beyond it and become The Most Deadly Man in the West . This would translate into his developing an attitude and a bag of tricks that in the end, and by the time he's actually 1st level, make him equivalent to HtH Commando.

[Nekira Sudacne]

LINE and sambo and other military martial arts are inherently different from more conventional forms given what they are meant to accomplish and the philosophies behind them along with the fact that at least with LINE you have scientific study to back up the techniques. If such methods were so self evident then why have we not seen them in our own history? One certainly never evolved in the Old West. Nor did one ever evolve in Western Europe. I'm saying this because the combat forms are fundamentally different then the vast array of martial arts developed over the years in that they meant to be inherently lethal from the outset and geared specifically to soldiers.

every martial art out there is differnet from every other martial art out there. the violent nature and job of the Gunslinger makes just such an art IDEAL for them.

By your reasoning Nekira H-t-H Commando should be available to any OCC out there. Commando, Special Forces, Wilderness Scout, Vagabond,...where do you stop? What's the criteria? I think coming from a military-based OCC is the start when you are looking at starting characters. Now that said,...certainly in the course of a campaign one may find a person or place to teach such techniques to our stalwart player. At that point figure some appropriate cost for learning something outside the rather rigid class system we are presented with.

well, logicallly, if someone decided to deicate the time and had the natural talent. . . there ISN'T anything stopping them.

[Svartalf]

Well... *we* may not have them in our histories, mainly because our fighting doctrine precisely had it that unarmed fighting was for brawling and that true, deadly combat, should always be done with some kind of weapon... which is why until recently (or is it still the case?) every soldier was issued a combat knife or short sword (including bayonets, which could be used by hand as well as when attached to the rifle), so they would never be unarmed, even should they be out of ammo or unable to use their rifle or pistol.

If you look at the history of Japan, you'll notice that this philosophy was very much present. Until the late 1800s, the art of Jujutsu was actually designed precisely as you said : for the battlefield soldier in full kit (armor) and aimed at rapid lethal results. What most of us believe about it comes from confusion with judo... fact is that Kano Jigoro peoperly emasculated the art in turning it into a non dangerous, nonlethal sport... and that's only one of the deadly martial arts forms developed in the orient.

The fact that we did not come up with the idea then , or that the few who did never gained wide recognition does not mean that in the future world said mentality will not become prevalent. after all, this is an approach to fighting I found out for myself without being shown or anybody telling me, it just seemed logical... and those people in the New West know that a foe they don't kill first may very well kill them.

And I may not go as far as Nekira... but yes, I think that many combat specialists, especially the elite ones (and gunslingers certainly get in the category) should have access to it.

Those who are not as focussed on fighting and being deadly might just not have what it takes to acquire that form, even if taught.

[Jason Richards]

Some of you are forgetting a seriously important issue here, and one that I'll wager you all discuss regularly as gamers: balance.

It's called the Gunslinger O.C.C., not DeadliestManInTheWest O.C.C. He's a Gunslinger. He slings guns.

He does not use a Vulcan Death Grip to kill sentries. He uses a laser pistol.

He does not seek to engage in hand-to-hand combat. He shoots people from far away.

He does not survive a shootout by auto-dodging the other man's bullet. He survives by having a higher Initiative and Strike roll.

Of course a Gunslinger could learn Commando, just like a Gunslinger could learn Demolitions Disposal, a skill normally out of bounds for the class. I often write NPC's or allow Player Characters that have skills normally not available, as there are always exceptions. The issue is, should this be available to every single Gunslinger walking the plains of the New West? Or, look at it this way: should the average Gunslinger have the option of learning Hand to Hand: Commando when the following classes can not?

CS Juicer
CS Nautical Specialist
CS Ranger
CS Military Specialist (a Special Forces class)
any form of Headhunter
Master Assassin
Special Forces
Free Quebec Undercover Agent

and the list goes on.

Most of these classes were written and/or updated AFTER CWC came out, but none of them have the Commando option. Also note that in the only reprint of the Hand to Hand: Commando skill since World Book 11 (in the GMG), it lists the skill as available only to the Commando and Special Forces O.C.C.'s.

So, you would allow a Gunslinger in your campaign to be a more deadly hand-to-hand fighter than a CS Ranger, or a Headhunter Assassin?

Commando hand-to-hand is basically an O.C.C.-specific "ability" and shouldn't be available to other classes any more than the Gunslinger's unique Sharpshooting skills and bonuses should be available to the Coalition Military.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's called the Gunslinger O.C.C., not Gunslinger O.C.C. He's a Gunslinger. He slings guns.

huh? what you talking about there? typo? said the same OCC twice. . .

[Svartalf]

Primo. This is Rifts. Balance has never been a factor. If you want "balance", go kiss ass to the wusses of the curd ...

Second ... yeah, he slings guns... very well I must add... but you certainly noticed that as a curious side effects of game mechanics, your HtH ability actually has vas influence on your overall combat performance. Under such a system, it is natural that a fearsome fighter should have the most fearsome HtH skill possible, even if his main expertise is not hand to hand fighting.

Tertio, I reiterate my certitude that if this particular rule point was not Kev's in the firs place, it's not something he just let pass by mistake ... the thing is repated over too many OCCs, and very well chosen ones too for it to be a random oversight.

What you say about his tactics is not untrue ... except that they are only preferred tactics. one thing he knows very well is that you don't survive in a dangerous environment and violent profession by being a one trick pony. and as I say, he doesn't learn commando... he develops it. The only people to actually *learn* commando on Rifts earth are those special forces types from major armies like the CS.. Fact is that many of the classes you mention either predate the publication of CWC and were never updated (I strongly consider allowing Commando for special forces types) or are constrained in what they can learn by military regulation (case of the Naughty boy, and probably for the military spec, or maybe he *should* be allowed to learn : OCC not updated). I must admit that I AM surprised about the Headhunter OCCs... maybe we should ask the author why he decided to let them study jiu jitsu instead of Commando?

[Shin Kenshiro]

The Corps no longer does LINE training. Their new program is a miss mash of other arts, and much like LINE it will teach you just enough to get yourself beat up in a bar. That is just the reality. Most guys I knew in the military who want to learn effective H2H looked outside of the military to find it. That goes for some of the high speed units too.

Now how does this transfer to Rifts? If I was to define what I would consider H2H Commando to be it would primarily consist of someone who tires to finish a fight fast, fights close, and fights very very dirty. I think you can easily argue that Gunslingers would be fighting that way. And considering that a Gunslinger is by his very nature a close up fighter just helps his cause.

Actually Morgan jumped on it and thought I was referring to LINE, which I was among the last platoons in boot to go through it. They began initializing the "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program" after a little buffer they taught to us. But Nekira, svartalf, and the others arguements FOR Gunslingers having HtH Commando still make no sense.

You keep saying that most of martial arts in the world were self devised...yes, that is true. But you are forgetting some simplistic things....like the time it takes. If you are concentrating on becoming this wickedly fast on the draw type, where the hell do you find the time to DEVELOP YOUR OWN FIGHTING STYLE? And please stop saying that self taught line....these were arts that took a LIFETIME to devise. You will never read about a 17-25 year old who came up with his own martial art form WITHOUT any other arts to draw from.

Look, I've met some badasses in my day, but not one of these self taught brawlers would be able to take down a Navy SEAL or Army Green Beret in hand to hand combat. HtH Commando is a KILLING style. Not brawling or talented fighter...a killer.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The Corps no longer does LINE training. Their new program is a miss mash of other arts, and much like LINE it will teach you just enough to get yourself beat up in a bar. That is just the reality. Most guys I knew in the military who want to learn effective H2H looked outside of the military to find it. That goes for some of the high speed units too.

Now how does this transfer to Rifts? If I was to define what I would consider H2H Commando to be it would primarily consist of someone who tires to finish a fight fast, fights close, and fights very very dirty. I think you can easily argue that Gunslingers would be fighting that way. And considering that a Gunslinger is by his very nature a close up fighter just helps his cause.

Actually Morgan jumped on it and thought I was referring to LINE, which I was among the last platoons in boot to go through it. They began initializing the "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program" after a little buffer they taught to us. But Nekira, svartalf, and the others arguements FOR Gunslingers having HtH Commando still make no sense.

You keep saying that most of martial arts in the world were self devised...yes, that is true. But you are forgetting some simplistic things....like the time it takes. If you are concentrating on becoming this wickedly fast on the draw type, where the hell do you find the time to DEVELOP YOUR OWN FIGHTING STYLE? And please stop saying that self taught line....these were arts that took a LIFETIME to devise. You will never read about a 17-25 year old who came up with his own martial art form WITHOUT any other arts to draw from.

Look, I've met some badasses in my day, but not one of these self taught brawlers would be able to take down a Navy SEAL or Army Green Beret in hand to hand combat. HtH Commando is a KILLING style. Not brawling or talented fighter...a killer.

and the gunslinger who take Commando, as opposed to HtH Expert like is the normal (remember, MOST gunslingers only have expert) are the badass brawlers that you say would be kicked by the Navey SEALS.

the Gunslingers with commando are the ones with the brains to try to kill the opposition rather than just beat them up.

[Jason Richards]

Primo. This is Rifts. Balance has never been a factor. If you want "balance", go kiss ass to the wusses of the curd ...

Sorry, but no. Kevin talks at great lengths about game balance and clearly shows an effort to maintain it. Read the GMG about South America I and II, and you'll see his perspective on game balance.

I think the real issue is starting to show in your perspective here... it reeks of Munchkin (wanting Primo over game balance is a sure sign). If that's how you get down, then that's terrific. No hard feelings. But, there will never be any middle ground in this discussion if that is the case. You can get some extra attacks by always being an ambidextrous mutant... or a Quick-Flex alien. Max that sucker out.

Second ... yeah, he slings guns... very well I must add... but you certainly noticed that as a curious side effects of game mechanics, your HtH ability actually has vas influence on your overall combat performance. Under such a system, it is natural that a fearsome fighter should have the most fearsome HtH skill possible, even if his main expertise is not hand to hand fighting.

So, why doesn't he start with the Boxing skill? You would, undoubtedly, take that skill right off the bat to get the extra attack, I feel sure. If you're looking to min-max the perfect character, then that's the way to go. I had a gunslinger-playing player once tell me why he took Boxing. "Why wouldn't you? You get an extra attack." As it was a short session all I could say was: "You had better punch somebody." Of course, he didn't. He shot people for an extra action each round.

Again, there is obviously an "artistic" difference here that won't be resolved.

Tertio, I reiterate my certitude that if this particular rule point was not Kev's in the firs place, it's not something he just let pass by mistake ... the thing is repated over too many OCCs, and very well chosen ones too for it to be a random oversight.

There's no sense in trying to guess Kevin's intention, if he indeed edit the actual O.C.C.'s at all, which he may or may not have done. I'm not arguing the fact that they are in there. I'm asking if you would allow it, and if you think it's reasonable.

What you say about his tactics is not untrue ... except that they are only preferred tactics. one thing he knows very well is that you don't survive in a dangerous environment and violent profession by being a one trick pony. and as I say, he doesn't learn commando... he develops it. The only people to actually *learn* commando on Rifts earth are those special forces types from major armies like the CS.. Fact is that many of the classes you mention either predate the publication of CWC and were never updated (I strongly consider allowing Commando for special forces types) or are constrained in what they can learn by military regulation (case of the Naughty boy, and probably for the military spec, or maybe he *should* be allowed to learn : OCC not updated). I must admit that I AM surprised about the Headhunter OCCs... maybe we should ask the author why he decided to let them study jiu jitsu instead of Commando?

Just reviewing:

CS Juicer - Commando deliberately left out (CWC update). A Naughty boy, perhaps, but they've already given him Cyber-Armor and a load of steroids.

CS Nautical Specialist - Commando deliberately left out (CWC update). Not a naughty boy.

CS Ranger - Commando deliberately left out. Not a naughty boy. Certainly more reasonable a selection for the Commando skill, yes?

CS Military Specialist (a Special Forces class) - could have easily been updated in CWC, but wasn't.

any form of Headhunter - Commando deliberately left out. The Gunslinger can "develop" Commando but he can't?

Master Assassin
Special Forces

Free Quebec Undercover Agent - Commando deliberately left out. A patriot, not a Naughty Boy.

So, that's 9 of 12 Special Forces OCC's (there are others... these were top of my head. Japan and NGR have some I believe) that were printed at the same time or after Commando was written up that all deliberately excluded HtH Commando.

Again, why should the Gunslinger get it and these not? By your arguments, why shouldn't any character be allowed to develop this hand to hand on their own?

[Svartalf]

Sorry, but no. Kevin talks at great lengths about game balance and clearly shows an effort to maintain it. Read the GMG about South America I and II, and you'll see his perspective on game balance.

I think the real issue is starting to show in your perspective here... it reeks of Munchkin (wanting Primo over game balance is a sure sign). If that's how you get down, then that's terrific. No hard feelings. But, there will never be any middle ground in this discussion if that is the case. You can get some extra attacks by always being an ambidextrous mutant... or a Quick-Flex alien. Max that sucker out.

Actually, it came first because balance came also first in the post to which I was answering. And it's not munchkinism, though I grant a taste for power gaming. If I remember correctly (I don't feel up to going check the SA books and looking for some possibly elusive text), his notion of balance are specifically within the frame a a given game/campaign. If the balance concept to the system itself, you'd never see the huge power variation there are between classes I mean, from Vagabond to cosmo knight through scholar, juicer, mage, and dragon ... of course it can feel a bit weird to put players of widely differing power levels in the same party, or to face a party of normal humans with the same enemies you'd use against a group composed of demigods and other powerful beings.. as for maxing a character out, that would depend on the game. Note, I defend the point on principle, not because I like this type of character particularly : my favorite New West classes are the gunfighter, saddle tramp, borg miner and saloon bum

Second ... yeah, he slings guns... very well I must add... but you certainly noticed that as a curious side effects of game mechanics, your HtH ability actually has vas influence on your overall combat performance. Under such a system, it is natural that a fearsome fighter should have the most fearsome HtH skill possible, even if his main expertise is not hand to hand fighting.

So, why doesn't he start with the Boxing skill? You would, undoubtedly, take that skill right off the bat to get the extra attack, I feel sure. If you're looking to min-max the perfect character, then that's the way to go. I had a gunslinger-playing player once tell me why he took Boxing. "Why wouldn't you? You get an extra attack." As it was a short session all I could say was: "You had better punch somebody." Of course, he didn't. He shot people for an extra action each round.

Again, there is obviously an "artistic" difference here that won't be resolved.

You'd be surprised by the number of my characters who *don't* have that skill. At character creation, I usually let the character's concept and back ground take precedence on mere practicality when it comes to skill choice. Now, if the charcter's concept is to be as deadly as possible... and that is hardwired in the guslinger OCC, well HtH commando becomes a logical choice, especially when the rules specifically allow it.

Tertio, I reiterate my certitude that if this particular rule point was not Kev's in the firs place, it's not something he just let pass by mistake ... the thing is repated over too many OCCs, and very well chosen ones too for it to be a random oversight.

There's no sense in trying to guess Kevin's intention, if he indeed edit the actual O.C.C.'s at all, which he may or may not have done. I'm not arguing the fact that they are in there. I'm asking if you would allow it, and if you think it's reasonable.

I usually try to drift away from the book rule as little as possible, and I see no major reason for doing so here. So, yes, I'd allow it. And if I regard the form as lethally oriented dirty fighting, as practiced by pure survivors for whom losing in not an option... well, it doesn't seem so unreasonable to me, in spite of all those who would have it a purely formal training combat style.

What you say about his tactics is not untrue ... except that they are only preferred tactics. one thing he knows very well is that you don't survive in a dangerous environment and violent profession by being a one trick pony. and as I say, he doesn't learn commando... he develops it. The only people to actually *learn* commando on Rifts earth are those special forces types from major armies like the CS.. Fact is that many of the classes you mention either predate the publication of CWC and were never updated (I strongly consider allowing Commando for special forces types) or are constrained in what they can learn by military regulation (case of the Naughty boy, and probably for the military spec, or maybe he *should* be allowed to learn : OCC not updated). I must admit that I AM surprised about the Headhunter OCCs... maybe we should ask the author why he decided to let them study jiu jitsu instead of Commando?

Just reviewing:

CS Juicer - Commando deliberately left out (CWC update). A Naughty boy, perhaps, but they've already given him Cyber-Armor and a load of steroids.
Equipment is one thing, but for a soldier who may last so little as a juicer, is the time spent giving him all the special training worthwhile?

CS Nautical Specialist - Commando deliberately left out (CWC update). Not a naughty boy.
point, I don't know why they don't have it ...

CS Ranger - Commando deliberately left out. Not a naughty boy. Certainly more reasonable a selection for the Commando skill, yes?
No : the ranger is definitely first a scout, not a combat specialist : when the basic grunt is taught Expert, the ranger's class default HtH is Basic

CS Military Specialist (a Special Forces class) - could have easily been updated in CWC, but wasn't.
Actually most of the CS OCCs from RMB could have received an update, none did ... so until the Great Man deigns to give official stance on the subject, it's GMs call, I'm not sure I'd allow it, but it does bear thinking


any form of Headhunter - Commando deliberately left out. The Gunslinger can "develop" Commando but he can't?
don't ask me, I was quite surprised on noticing they had access to jiu jitsu, but not commando

Master Assassin uses Assassin, a specialised form assumed to be better suited for their use
Special Forces I *did* say I was in favor of granting them access, this is another case of non update

Free Quebec Undercover Agent - Commando deliberately left out. A patriot, not a Naughty Boy.
well... would you train the secret agents in the very deadliest form possible, or just give them a decent grasp of fighting? those are undercover guys, not Action branch people.

BTW ... in *what* acception do you use "Naughty Boy"? personally I used it as the nickname of the Nautical Specialist..


Again, why should the Gunslinger get it and these not? By your arguments, why shouldn't any character be allowed to develop this hand to hand on their own?

I've got an idea that you guys read too much from the fact that the form is called commando and appeared with the OCC of the same name... you jumped to the conclusion that it is a super training skill available only in the best boot camps, while actually, this may not be true at all, it's just a form available to the very deadliest fighters in the land, and not necessarily the best trained, formal training in it being possibly rarer than going beyond some other, lesser skill and self training into deadliness.
and the reason why *just any* character should not be allowed it is that it's a skill that, formally trained or self developed is a major skill, available only to the very finest fighters of the land, people of very high focus and combat ability... the slinger type OCCs, given their single minded pursuit of excellence and deadliness would qualify where many high end fighters don't
[/b]

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm saying this because the combat forms are fundamentally different then the vast array of martial arts developed over the years in that they meant to be inherently lethal from the outset and geared specifically to soldiers.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with some of the old koryu of feudal Japan. Almost all of them were battlefield schools intended to be performed while wearing heavy armor, and had very little attention payed to unarmed combat (and, even then, grappling-type maneuvers were by far more common).

If you look at the history of Japan, you'll notice that this philosophy was very much present. Until the late 1800s, the art of Jujutsu was actually designed precisely as you said : for the battlefield soldier in full kit (armor) and aimed at rapid lethal results. What most of us believe about it comes from confusion with judo... fact is that Kano Jigoro peoperly emasculated the art in turning it into a non dangerous, nonlethal sport... and that's only one of the deadly martial arts forms developed in the orient.

That account above is a bit of a misnomer.

There is no "one" art of Jujutsu. It was a generic label that applied to a broad variety of schools and methodologies --- very similar to the labels 'taijutsu' and 'yawara'. Also similar to how "kung fu" or "wu shu" are used in China, they can apply to HUNDREDS of different schools with very different approaches.

Regarding Kano, he simply codified the jujutsu waza of two of three koryu in a more "modernized" context. It was by no means a comprehensive codification of the HUNDREDS of koryu Japan had at the time.

he fact that we did not come up with the idea then , or that the few who did never gained wide recognition does not mean that in the future world said mentality will not become prevalent.

The notion that the West never developed parallel arts is another misnomer.

I would point you to Savate as perhaps the most accessible example, but almost every culture has their "version" of a no-nonsense, uber-deadly, battlefield art.

The Corps no longer does LINE training. Their new program is a miss mash of other arts, and much like LINE it will teach you just enough to get yourself beat up in a bar. That is just the reality. Most guys I knew in the military who want to learn effective H2H looked outside of the military to find it. That goes for some of the high speed units too.

Yup. I've heard similar accounts, as well. Most of the military types I know that want to really learn hand-to-hand seek out a good civilian martial arts dojo, kwoon, or whatnot that fits their disposition. Most of the "hand-to-hand" training in the military, even in special forces, is really just a Cliff's Note version of what is taught in several civilian schools.

You keep saying that most of martial arts in the world were self devised...yes, that is true. But you are forgetting some simplistic things....like the time it takes. If you are concentrating on becoming this wickedly fast on the draw type, where the hell do you find the time to DEVELOP YOUR OWN FIGHTING STYLE? And please stop saying that self taught line....these were arts that took a LIFETIME to devise. You will never read about a 17-25 year old who came up with his own martial art form WITHOUT any other arts to draw from.

It should also be mentioned that the individuals that have developed superb martial arts schools --- from Takamatsu's codification of Ninpo schools to Ueshiba's codification of Aikido to Musashi's codification of the Niten ryu --- all had DECADES of training and experience in various martial arts and battles. We're talking at least 30 to 40 years of training and experience here. They were not 25-year olds that probably had less then 10 years of experience, and absolutely no formal training.

The flaw in you argument is that you are trying to draw parallels between commando fighting and martial arts. They are two very seperate things. Commando fighting at it's core stresses the two concepts laid down by guys like Fairbairn and Applegate. That is simplicity and lethality. We are not taking about a fighting style that requires you to sit around doing katas for 8 hours every day. You want to be able to put in minimal time, but at the same time get max results. With combatives you get this. Just bare bones easy to learn kick butt fighting. I think by it's very nature that it lends itself to an OCC like Gunslinger.

The above account is sheer romanticism devoid of any basis in reality.

"Commando fighting" (as in the hand-to-hand training developed by commando forces) and traditional martial arts, such as those used in the feudal eras of the Orient, are not "two very separate things". They are quite similar. Simplicity and lethality were often at the forefront of both.

Of course, your notion that you're going to be some uber-deadly killer with just a year or two of training is nothing short of silliness. Commando trained guys are usually NOT that impressive compared to someone trained in a good civilian martial art for 10 to 20 years. I'm sorry to burst your little bubble there, but that's the cold, hard truth. Hand-to-hand military training is the Cliff's Note version of in-depth martial arts --- as military guys themselves will tell you. Any idea how many ex-Marines or ex-Green Berets end up taking lifelong study of a civilian martial art??

Also, contrary to what any BS you've been told, it takes YEARS of training in any art to become an extremely competent and amazing fighter. It doesn't matter which art, the training and experience is still prerequisite.

What is taught in most military HTH programs is the bare-bones, quick 'n' easy skills needed to be applied on the job. They are not uber-deadly warriors not amazing and unparalleled combat experts. They have basic combat skills that give them a slight edge in certain situations against your average soldier-man. They would not have that same edge against a seasoned martial artist.

Laterz.

I think the biggest flaw here is your trying to compare our current "commando" training agisnt Rifts Commando training.

in rifts, it says that the CS HtH Commando IS a form of martial arts. not a quick and dirty version, although to be quick and dirty is the goal. it IS a full form of martial arts, as in depth and complex as the others mentioned in Rifts Japan and elsewhere, although the CS knows nothing of the advanced martial arts techniques, the combat itself is indeed comparable.

and with this in mind why do I say that it should be available to the gunslinger. . .

well, again, the basic combat itself, but they don't have to spend time learning advanced techniques like Atemi or body harderning or whatnot. THOSE take most of the time.

just the basic HtH combat dosn't time AS LONG to learn, although it takes time to be sure. but on the other hand, you must also remember how many WANNABE gunslingers it mentiones.

many claim the title, few have what it takes.

that's the thing. these guys arn't just supposed to focus on their guns. they're trying to be as quick and deadly as humanly possible. my joke above with the edited quote was actually acuurate, the Deadlyest Man In The West is precicly what the Gunslingers dedicate themselves to being.

[Nekira Sudacne]

in rifts, it says that the CS HtH Commando IS a form of martial arts. not a quick and dirty version, although to be quick and dirty is the goal. it IS a full form of martial arts, as in depth and complex as the others mentioned in Rifts Japan and elsewhere, although the CS knows nothing of the advanced martial arts techniques, the combat itself is indeed comparable.

Really?? Does HTH Commando take +10 years of ADULT training to reach level 1 proficiency?? Do you acquire any Weapon Katas?? Martial Art Powers at all?? Any additional skills with training?? At least 10 combat maneuvers known at level 1??

No?? Well, then its not a "full form of martial arts". Its equivalent to one of the quickie/AGENT styles in N&SS, and only takes 1 to 3 years of training/study to reach level 1 proficiency. This is what the military types would be using.

you didn't read my entire post, only the parts you though you could tackle, is specifically adressed that point.

the point is, they DON'T teach those advacned techniques to SAVE TIME. the COMBAT level is the same.

[Nekira Sudacne]

the point is, they DON'T teach those advacned techniques to SAVE TIME. the COMBAT level is the same.

That is a fundamentally contradictory claim.

Those "advanced techniques" are EXACTLY what makes the full Martial Art Forms' combat levels higher. In terms of overall advancement bonuses, the quickie styles usually have higher bonuses because of this.

HTH Commando is still a quickie style that takes no more than 3 years of training to reach level 1 proficiency, no matter how you rationalize otherwise.

may be a quickie, but the combat bonuses and level of skill is the same. that's the only point I'm trying to make.

[Nekira Sudacne]

methinks the problem here is you define martial art differently than I do.

you define them by specical techniques.

I define martial art, as, well, martial. meaning fighting. being tough, knowing just where to hit to cause some damage helps a lot, but as far as COMBAT goes, it's the bonuses, attacks, and defence manuvers.

[Svartalf]

If you look at the history of Japan, you'll notice that this philosophy was very much present. Until the late 1800s, the art of Jujutsu was actually designed precisely as you said : for the battlefield soldier in full kit (armor) and aimed at rapid lethal results. What most of us believe about it comes from confusion with judo... fact is that Kano Jigoro peoperly emasculated the art in turning it into a non dangerous, nonlethal sport... and that's only one of the deadly martial arts forms developed in the orient.

That account above is a bit of a misnomer.

There is no "one" art of Jujutsu. It was a generic label that applied to a broad variety of schools and methodologies --- very similar to the labels 'taijutsu' and 'yawara'. Also similar to how "kung fu" or "wu shu" are used in China, they can apply to HUNDREDS of different schools with very different approaches.

Regarding Kano, he simply codified the jujutsu waza of two of three koryu in a more "modernized" context. It was by no means a comprehensive codification of the HUNDREDS of koryu Japan had at the time.

Yes, I know I oversimplified, but the object was to present a valid counter argument, not to make a history of pre Meiji Japanese unarmed styles (which I'm not qualified to do anyway) The fact that those Jujutsu schools were mainly designed for battlefield use by fully armored warriors still stands. As for Kano, I never said he had codified ALL the knowledge of Jujutsu, and it *is* a fact that when he codified judo, he left aside a vast array of available techniques which he deemed too dangerous or otherwise unsuitable, and that the older styles are mostly forgotten due to the popularity of the hobbled form that is judo [ /b]

he fact that we did not come up with the idea then , or that the few who did never gained wide recognition does not mean that in the future world said mentality will not become prevalent.

The notion that the West never developed parallel arts is another misnomer.

I would point you to Savate as perhaps the most accessible example, but almost every culture has their "version" of a no-nonsense, uber-deadly, battlefield art.

[b]I am very aware of savate and such methods, only they didn't fit the bill for my argument, as they are essentially methods to brawling, and were mostly practiced either by ruffians, or by the upperclasses "just in case", *not* battlefield techniques practiced by, or taught to, soldiers. Now, if you could name me an ancient (well, okay, say 2 centuries or older) *Western* deadly, battlefield art, I will regard myself as standing corrected. Note : the Greek Pankration, while quite deadly, does not fit the bill, as it was designed to be practiced in the nude, not on a battle armoured soldier

As a note to the observations concerning the time and experience needed to become a really good and deadly fighter, and to really develop one's own fighting technique : they are not germane to the discussion. Such things are the reason why your HtH skill or MA form gives you bonuses at every level. I'll be the first to admit that O Sensei Ueshiba, Takamatsu and Musashi were already high level characters when they codified their arts. But this has no relationship to *how* this art translates into Rifts terms.

Also, the fact that military weaponless training is a bare bones form, and that becoming a really good fighter needs application (and gift) is the reason why I stated earlier that whatever the quality of training given, most military types came out of it with an equivalent Expert HtH. Only the most gifted and assiduous will end up with real Commando HtH
.[/b]

[Svartalf]

the point is, they DON'T teach those advacned techniques to SAVE TIME. the COMBAT level is the same.

That is a fundamentally contradictory claim.

Those "advanced techniques" are EXACTLY what makes the full Martial Art Forms' combat levels higher. In terms of overall advancement bonuses, the quickie styles usually have higher bonuses because of this.

HTH Commando is still a quickie style that takes no more than 3 years of training to reach level 1 proficiency, no matter how you rationalize otherwise.

I'd say ... yes and no.
Indeed, the special techniques that characterise a fully fledge martial art make the artist a better fighter overall.

But, let's face it, military training, and all quickie martial arts, are NOT aimed to make somebody a full martial artist or an uber warrior, they aim at giving a joe a set of practical methods for reducing a foe to a helpless one or to a corpse as fast a possible, and are actually *not* designed for facing a fully trained martial artist. They are nonetheless combat effective, and quite deadly provided the enemy does not have superior training to resist.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No. You define martial arts in the very general sense of "knowing how to fight". I interpreted your reference to a "full Martial Art Form" and "quickie form" as to how they are actually defined in the Palladium roleplaying system.

If your definition of martial arts is just "a fighting style", then every HTH style in every game is a "martial art form". Thus, there is no point in differentiating them from one another.

En toto, I was using the Palladium definition of these terms. Not real-life definitions.

then you mistunderstand me

all I said was that when it comes to "knowing how to fight" commando is equal to the full forms.

there were numourus exsamples drawn in this thread about how LINE was inferior to civilan martial arts, and many SF guys IRL went outside for other training.

my point was that Commando is a new form equal to all these other forms that they went out to learn instead of LINE.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I still fail to see how HTH: Commando is so much more accomplished than HTH: Assassin or HTH: Martial Arts. It doesn't strike me as a "full form".

Personally, my money would be on the guy with Aikido or Thai Boxing. Not HTH: Commando. But, then again, that's just me.

dude. . . it's heads and sholders above hth MA or A. I'm starting to wonder if you actually looked at it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

And HTH: Martial Arts is heads and shoulders above HTH: Expert. Doesn't change the fact they're both quickie/AGENT forms.

ok, heres what you do.

take out a copy of CWC and look at it's bonuses and combat moves.

then pull out your N&SS book and compare it to a guy with mosy any Martial arts form.

make both PC's level 15.

Commando is comparable with an edge against most forms in a straight-up fight.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Commando is comparable with an edge against most forms in a straight-up fight.

So is HTH: Assassin. Doesn't change the fact its a quickie form.

What you have consistently forgotten, Nekira, is that MOST quickie or agent forms have superior Level Advancement Bonuses to MOST full martial art forms. Doesn't change the fact that they're quickie/agent forms. And, it doesn't matter how amazing the quickie's bonuses are... its still a quickie form (hell, Assassin gets like a +7 to Strike and Damage).

The edge that the Martial Artist has is found in his Martial Art Powers. That Commando won't be looking so tough with a little Zanshin, Iron Fist, or Soft Chi thrown into the mix.

and don't forget, my only point was that people were calling HtH commando inferior to other forms.