The Gunslinger and HtH: Commando

[Svartalf]

The fact that those Jujutsu schools were mainly designed for battlefield use by fully armored warriors still stands.

Actually, most "jujutsu-only" schools probably wouldn't have originated for battlefield usage. Most probably originate during the Edo Period, when weapons combat was far less common.

That may be true for the Okinawan schools (which by the way are more ancestors to Okinawa Te, Karate do, and various kobudo), but is much less so on the main isles, where the peasantry was not engagesd in semi active resistance against the upper classes. There, the bare hand schools were still the province of the buke, and they went back to styles developed during the Gempei wars or during the Muromachi period => for fully armored battlefield combat. There was very little need for development of bare hand methods during the Edo period, as a) samurai were never seen without their swords, b) the general peace and orderliness of the period lessened the stress on being ready to fight at any time, under any circumstances, and c) most fighting was ritualised into duelling or formal battle, ensuring that the warrior would have his weapons when he needed them

As a note to the observations concerning the time and experience needed to become a really good and deadly fighter, and to really develop one's own fighting technique : they are not germane to the discussion. Such things are the reason why your HtH skill or MA form gives you bonuses at every level. I'll be the first to admit that O Sensei Ueshiba, Takamatsu and Musashi were already high level characters when they codified their arts. But this has no relationship to *how* this art translates into Rifts terms.

Actually, its quite relevant to the discussion.

Someone brought up the fact that these Gunslingers could "create" their own styles from their experiences that is "parallel" to HTH: Commando, and pointed to most martial arts being self-created as proof of this. I pointed out that is hogwash. The "self-created martial arts" were the product of decades upon decades of training and experience, often with succeeding generations "adding to" the knowledge of the tradition. A Gunslinger with around 5 years of experience is not going to come up with anything similar ---- although, he might feasibly create his own Quickie type style.

NOT hogwash. the fact that these great warriors codified their arts late in life does not mean that such arts had not been a very long time in development... they started working on it from level 1. Since the palladium system does not allow for upgrading one's HtH abilities during play, one has to assume that the character was taught a lesser form, but is working on improving it by himself, effectively yielding the superior form. And HtH commando is not a full fledged art, but a quickie, you said so yourself

[Tinker Dragoon]

And the Gunslinger whips them both it seems...

[Uncle Servo]

Folks, this is a game in which superhumans are made with chemical injections/brain implants, dragons operate computers, and normal humans tool around in flying suits of power armor or lumbering robots the size of water towers. It seems to me that arguing this much and this vehemently over ONE SKILL is more than a bit silly.

The way I deal with this is pretty much the same way I deal with any skill that normally doesn't seem to make sense at first glance -- the player must have a good reason for it.

In the case of the player who justified his Boxing skill by saying "Well, wouldn't you," I would have put the brakes on him right there and have him give me a more well-thought-out reason other than the bonus attack.

In the case of a Gunslinger having HTH: Commando, I'd demand a well-written backstory on this character detailing in a plausible way how he/she was either mentored by an ex-SpecOps veteran or consulted various fighting masters and developed his/her own style. If he/she can't, or is one of those who simply refuse to write meaningful backgrounds, then I won't allow it and they can whine all they want to no avail.

As for whether or not Gunslingers should have that skill in the first place... well, it depends on the character. Only a fool specializes in only ONE venue of combat -- be it magic, psionics, weapons, or HTH -- and so I can understand a Gunslinger wanting to also be good at unarmed combat so he/she won't be useless in the event he/she finds himself/herself without his/her pistols. Does that mean being able to choose Commando? Again, depends on the character. If the alignment, personality, and background make it plausible in my mind, then I'd allow it as an option.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't allow it for Gunslingers because I don't think they specialize in H+H combat, I think they specialize in guns. H+H Commando is a specialized training regimen for characters in established and well-financed military operations only, such as the NGR or CS.

Your average Gunslinger would never have the oportunity to learn it. Nor should they.

Only a Fool relies entirely one one weapon. you don't survive in Rifts and the New West especially by being a fool. not for long.

[Uncle Servo]

I'm with Uncle Servo in allowing any character to take HTH: Commando that has an appropriate backstory.

Emphasis on the words 'appropriate backstory.' If the backstory is good enough, I'd allow even a barmaid to pick up that skill (say maybe her ex-SpecOps father taught it to her from an early age).

I agree that the average barmaid (or gunslinger, for that matter) probably wouldn't have reason for learning/developing such an advanced form of HTH combat, but my line of thought is that since PCs aren't exactly average inhabitants of Rifts Earth (for one reason or another) I'm willing to grant some leeway in character customization depending on the conditions I've expressed earlier.

[Nekira Sudacne]

NOT hogwash. the fact that these great warriors codified their arts late in life does not mean that such arts had not been a very long time in development... they started working on it from level 1. Since the palladium system does not allow for upgrading one's HtH abilities during play, one has to assume that the character was taught a lesser form, but is working on improving it by himself, effectively yielding the superior form. And HtH commando is not a full fledged art, but a quickie, you said so yourself

Sorry, but that's not how it worked.

Musashi Miyamoto did not develop his teachings "since level 1". He developed and codified them after DECADES of training and experience

ok, I'm going to have to point out something I thought was obvious. . .

he began developing his TECHNIQUE sinse level one.

he didn't codify it or teach it until after much experiance, level 13-15 at least.

and then he could train others to get to level 1.

[Nekira Sudacne]

ok, I'm going to have to point out something I thought was obvious. . .

he began developing his TECHNIQUE sinse level one.

he didn't codify it or teach it until after much experiance, level 13-15 at least.

and then he could train others to get to level 1.

*sigh* Ok. Lemme see if I can rephrase this....

Musashi's famous Niten ryu (y'know, the two-sword school?) was not fully developed or articulated when he was respectively at "level 1". He was training to acquire proficiency in some other, pre-existing ryuha at that time. It wasn't until decades later --- after having acquired a high degree of skill and experience in numerous ryuha --- that what would be called Niten ryu was actually formulated and created to any fashionable degree.

Musashi created this distinctive school of swordsmanship based on the experiences and training he had acquire in numerous other ryuha. Nothing even resembling the Niten ryu would have been present in him at "level 1". He would have still been training to learn one of the earlier ryuha he had trained in at the time.

Again, the closest representative of guys like Musashi, Ueshiba, or Takamatsu is the Ancient Master (with N&SS rules thrown in for flavor).

I think you have it.

that's how most gunslingers got it.

they started out with something more basic (HtH expert) but developed it until it was the equivilent of Hth Commando.

sacrafising skills like you do, it mean that the time that could have been spent on other things was on developing Commando.

[Svartalf]

NOT hogwash. the fact that these great warriors codified their arts late in life does not mean that such arts had not been a very long time in development... they started working on it from level 1. Since the palladium system does not allow for upgrading one's HtH abilities during play, one has to assume that the character was taught a lesser form, but is working on improving it by himself, effectively yielding the superior form. And HtH commando is not a full fledged art, but a quickie, you said so yourself

Sorry, but that's not how it worked.

Musashi Miyamoto did not develop his teachings "since level 1". He developed and codified them after DECADES of training and experience --- the closest Palladium parallel perhaps being the Ancient Master in Heroes Unlimited.

exactly what I said : He CODIFIED and started TEACHING fairly late in life, when he was highly skilled and recognized. but he started WORKING on ni-ten style early in his career

BTW ... to have mastered as many Ryû as you said he did before developing his own... he would have had to be trained in them ... IIRC, he never was formally trained in a known Ryû, except maybe as a kid, before starting on his career as a wandering rônin and is not noted for having studied under anybody during said career : meaning, all his skill came from hands on experience and largely solitary practice


And what has this to do with HTH: Commando?? Nothing, really. Its not a full-fledged Martial Art Form anyway. In N&SS, it would be an AGENT form.

I did not start on this aspect of the topic, but went on and I used that as an analogy ... what the great did in great things, the slightly lesser can do on a smaller scale

I don't allow it for Gunslingers because I don't think they specialize in H+H combat, I think they specialize in guns. H+H Commando is a specialized training regimen for characters in established and well-financed military operations only, such as the NGR or CS.

Don't agree ... the so called "special training regimen" is a barebones set of techniques with no style and lesser unity... excellent against an untrained opponent, much less against a guy who has trained reflexes and has the skill to react properly, and possibly in unprevisible manner. To boot, such regimen is actually not better than the student, which means that LINE training may train a good student into HtH Commando, but will leave most students with no more than Expert. Also, you don't need a special regimen to learn and fight quick, dirty and deadly ... just to practice, fight, and survive. Being taught is a plus, but most masters will admit that teaching is only the start, it's practice and experience that make the great fighter

[Svartalf]

ok, I'm going to have to point out something I thought was obvious. . .

he began developing his TECHNIQUE sinse level one.

he didn't codify it or teach it until after much experiance, level 13-15 at least.

and then he could train others to get to level 1.

*sigh* Ok. Lemme see if I can rephrase this....

Musashi's famous Niten ryu (y'know, the two-sword school?) was not fully developed or articulated when he was respectively at "level 1". He was training to acquire proficiency in some other, pre-existing ryuha at that time. It wasn't until decades later --- after having acquired a high degree of skill and experience in numerous ryuha --- that what would be called Niten ryu was actually formulated and created to any fashionable degree.

Musashi created this distinctive school of swordsmanship based on the experiences and training he had acquire in numerous other ryuha. Nothing even resembling the Niten ryu would have been present in him at "level 1". He would have still been training to learn one of the earlier ryuha he had trained in at the time.

Again, the closest representative of guys like Musashi, Ueshiba, or Takamatsu is the Ancient Master (with N&SS rules thrown in for flavor).

I think you have it.

that's how most gunslingers got it.

they started out with something more basic (HtH expert) but developed it until it was the equivilent of Hth Commando.

sacrafising skills like you do, it mean that the time that could have been spent on other things was on developing Commando.

Thanks for expressing my own opinions Nek

[glitterboy2098]

on the "where did they learn it note", you can use it to segregate the gunslinger community.

on one hand, you have "Wannabee's" who make good. these would have "weaker" HTH skills, but more varied skills.

on the other, you have the ones with HTH Commando, and other similar powerful HTH skills.

these would represent the gunslingers tought under the tutalige of an experiance gunslinger.

they do not develop their HTH skill form themselves, but merely learn a variation of the form tought by their master. who learned it from his, and so on. the original master might have been a marine, or other military person during the dark age, who took a kid under his/her wing and tought them to fight.

in fact, this can be used to improve RPing.

as each group developed the style from different roots, gunslingers tought be different tutors will have different postures, move methods, ect. while they still know the same basic fighting style, each group will have minor variations on how they occomplish it. and with such variation, it should be easy for a gunslinger to recognise an opponents school of HTH commando (gunslinger version). imagine a gunslinger in a bar fight, and noticing that his opponent fights with a school used by his worst enemy. or perhaps one exactly like his old masters? the possibilities are vast.

[Uncle Servo]

There are far worse things than H2H Comm out there. Technically, there are ones in N&S available by the rules, let alone the fact that every class has the chance (Rifts main book) of being psychic. How about a gunslinger who can read minds or is empathic. Can you say init bonus? Also, there are plenty of no save psi options to further add to the mix...take a look and prepare to be afraid...

That's a point. In the midst of a game, I think I'd be far more wary of a Gunslinger with HTH Expert and Sixth Sense (or Intuitive Combat) then I would a non-psychic Gunslinger with HTH Commando.

If the character has a background, and tha GM allows said background, that allows such an education becomes the key to any skill. Maybe Daddy was a merc, or someone in the character's past was. Maybe they became a slinger under the tutelage of a "master" who taught them this...up to the individual GM nad game I'd say.

And that's the point I've been bringing up... but I think it may have gotten lost among all the more involved discussions on fighting styles and whether or not Marines learn LINE.