techno wizard uselessness?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yep, there are exclsive.

however, rules were later clairifyed that Psychics can charge a TW weapon by pumping in 2x the ISP of the amount of PPE it says it needs.

also, in Rifts New West, there are some TW guns that are modifyed so that ANYONE with enough PPE or ISP can charge it simply by putting the right amount in, even those with no magical training whatsoever. (they are weak because most people only have 2d6 PPE, but that's what it uses, 6 PPE)

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm convinced the TW is a gimmick OCC, since it costs big creds, takes time and lots of PPE to really get something cool. If you want to learn Electrical or Mechanical skill, it costs 2 normals.

a TW plasma blaster -- uh, why? there's tons of tech ones, that cost less and you can recharge their e-clips.

why spend all your ISP/PPE shooting at attackers when a tech weapon can do it for you and save your mystic abilities for something else.

because your thinking too small. you can do a whole lot more than just weapons. TW items rock.

jewerly with Charismatic aura.

you know that tiny little carrying space in most robots that's worthless? Demenisonal Envelope, but anyone with the PPE can recarge it, rather than having to track down a temprol wizard every time.

as weapons, yes, TW's are pretty limited compared to tech.

as far as mundane items go?

TW's ROCK.

[Daniel Stoker]

I'm convinced the TW is a gimmick OCC, since it costs big creds, takes time and lots of PPE to really get something cool. If you want to learn Electrical or Mechanical skill, it costs 2 normals.

a TW plasma blaster -- uh, why? there's tons of tech ones, that cost less and you can recharge their e-clips.

why spend all your ISP/PPE shooting at attackers when a tech weapon can do it for you and save your mystic abilities for something else.

the ley line stuff is ok, since it's self-powered, but otherwise...

What happens when you're out in the 'field' for a month and you don't have a place to recharge your E-clips? Sure you COULD recharge them if you had a recharger, so while you're sitting there with 12 empty e-clips the TW just meditates over night to regain the PPE he just spent recharging all his weapons.



Daniel Stoker

[Svartalf]

Personally, I regard that specific mention of a techno wizard being able to pump PPE directly into the weapon as one more editorial mistake, and let any TW use capable character do so.

On the other hand, those clip loaded Stormspire weapons ... shouldn't they be useable just by anybody, not just by the magically and psi active?

[Jason Richards]

On the other hand, those clip loaded Stormspire weapons ... shouldn't they be useable just by anybody, not just by the magically and psi active?

thats the thing, they are...but the e clips themselves cost an arm and a leg, and to get them recharged is the same problem with money...

let's not start this again... PLEASE! There is no answer to this specific question, other than the following generalization:

TW is broken. That's right, I said it. It's broken. Too many authors have written too many different things, and the general principles have even evolved over time. Fortunately, I have the solution.

Email Carmen Bellaire, and tell him to fix TW for good in Rifts: Lazlo. Only there can it be categorically redefined and solidified forever.

I'm serious. He's reachable through the boards.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Weren't you writing a Rifts book too?...

[Mack]

...
also, in Rifts New West, there are some TW guns that are modifyed so that ANYONE with enough PPE or ISP can charge it simply by putting the right amount in, even those with no magical training whatsoever. (they are weak because most people only have 2d6 PPE, but that's what it uses, 6 PPE)

Uhh, page number please?

[Nekira Sudacne]

...
also, in Rifts New West, there are some TW guns that are modifyed so that ANYONE with enough PPE or ISP can charge it simply by putting the right amount in, even those with no magical training whatsoever. (they are weak because most people only have 2d6 PPE, but that's what it uses, 6 PPE)

Uhh, page number please?

World Book 14, New West, page 214, the TW-45 Six Gun and the TW-38 Endless Revovler.

the first one being a 6 shot 1d6 MD gun and the other one being a 38 shot SDC gun.

weak, but better than nothing.

[Nekira Sudacne]

one thing i just realized is that tw weapons offer great offensive capabilities to a mage that would have to take two actions to cast a fireball, as opposed to just pulling a trigger...
though all in all it seems that tw is best for vehicles, armor, and other devices that dont use eclips on e regular basis...

if you're not worried about PPE or ISP then yeah, it's fine. but if you
only have 50 PPE or ISP then it's suddenly an issue.

but you can usually get the same damage out of a tech weapon too.

last night I only fired my NG-IP7 twice and twice the week before, but
I tossed several costly spells.

I think you still need WP whatever to fire a TW weapon too...right?

no, WP isn't required to use a TW weapon. but you don't get any bonuses.

like, if your using a TW Rifle, if you have WP rifle you get the usual bonuses, (+3 aimed +1 burst, +1 every 3rd level on) but without you get no bonuses (stragiht roll of the die to hit) and any burst is "wild"

[Svartalf]

Say Hans ... that TW guy wizarding up a beta's engine is great... only, what did it run on, and how was it charged up? (Since the VT pilot was out of Robotech, I doubt he was psychic, and I'd just HATE to have my bird run out of power while I was away from a mage able to pump more power into it, or to have to be constantly chasing ley lines for a place to stow the thing and let it recharge)

[Jason Richards]

Weren't you writing a Rifts book too?...

well, I'm writing Arzno, which is pretty TW-intense, but it isn't the right setting for a broad redefinition for Techno-Wizardry. Lazlo is the only book that I can see as able to pull that off, wouldn't you agree?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Regardless of what new west says, you need to be experienced in using your PPE and be taught how to know how to use them. A cyber-knight, for example, who is not psionic (going by the main book) is able to use them. Children might be able to as well, since they have so much creativity and are able to learn new things. Adults generally cannot, it takes a lot of effort to learn stuff like that. If a class gives any bonus PPE or PPE per level, I'd say they could use it. For example, trappers/hunters from Warlords of Russia.

how can you dismiss what it says in the books so readily when the only thing you have to use to say you need to know how to use it is another book

[MADMANMIKE]

Regardless of what new west says, you need to be experienced in using your PPE and be taught how to know how to use them. A cyber-knight, for example, who is not psionic (going by the main book) is able to use them. Children might be able to as well, since they have so much creativity and are able to learn new things. Adults generally cannot, it takes a lot of effort to learn stuff like that. If a class gives any bonus PPE or PPE per level, I'd say they could use it. For example, trappers/hunters from Warlords of Russia.

..What main book are you refering to? I have a first, eighth, and thirteenth printings, as well as the hardbound silver and gold, and all them have the Cyber-Knight as psionic.....

-Mike <8[

[Nekira Sudacne]

Regardless of what new west says, you need to be experienced in using your PPE and be taught how to know how to use them. A cyber-knight, for example, who is not psionic (going by the main book) is able to use them. Children might be able to as well, since they have so much creativity and are able to learn new things. Adults generally cannot, it takes a lot of effort to learn stuff like that. If a class gives any bonus PPE or PPE per level, I'd say they could use it. For example, trappers/hunters from Warlords of Russia.

..What main book are you refering to? I have a first, eighth, and thirteenth printings, as well as the hardbound silver and gold, and all them have the Cyber-Knight as psionic.....

-Mike <8[

only 80% of them are psionic. roll.

[MADMANMIKE]

..Right, but where does it say that non-psionic cyberknights can use TW devices?

-Mike >8]

[Jason Richards]

..Right, but where does it say that non-psionic cyberknights can use TW devices?

-Mike >8]

The RMB says that Cyber-Knights are one of the few classes that can use TW, but doesn't specify if you have to be psychic or not.

The ruling, as most clearly clarified for clarity, is that anyone who can channel their energy/spirit, be it PPE, ISP, Chi, etc. or are those with open minds like children, or grew up using them and maintaining the ability can all use TW.

This explains why citizens of Tolkeen, Lazlo, Arzno, and other places can all use the TK elevators and all that. They were raised using them. (HA! Raised... elevators... )

[MADMANMIKE]

..Yeah, well, that's the answer then. You have to be a child like bafoon to be an honor bound hero type. Case closed.

-Mike >8]

[Jason Richards]

If we all made our characters pay list prices for E-Clip recharges, that whole "using PPE" thing would look a lot better. I know that I, for one, generally write it off after a session is over. I shouldn't, but I do.

[Mack]

...
also, in Rifts New West, there are some TW guns that are modifyed so that ANYONE with enough PPE or ISP can charge it simply by putting the right amount in, even those with no magical training whatsoever. (they are weak because most people only have 2d6 PPE, but that's what it uses, 6 PPE)

Uhh, page number please?

World Book 14, New West, page 214, the TW-45 Six Gun and the TW-38 Endless Revovler.

the first one being a 6 shot 1d6 MD gun and the other one being a 38 shot SDC gun.

weak, but better than nothing.

Gotta disagree with you here.

The intent of the paragraph is to say the user does not need a specific spell (e.g. Globe of Daylight...) to recharge the weapon. True, it does state "just that he possess the necessary PPE or ISP to recharge the weapon" but that's not the same as saying anyone (Vagabond, Soldier, City Rat, etc...) can use it. The intent is that it does not require a specific spell to recharge. The user must still belong to a class that can utilize TW items (mages, psychics, supernatural, etc...).

I wouldn't apply that passage to any Joe Blow off the street, since it would complete alter how TW devices are used throughout the entirety of Rifts.

[Nekira Sudacne]

...
also, in Rifts New West, there are some TW guns that are modifyed so that ANYONE with enough PPE or ISP can charge it simply by putting the right amount in, even those with no magical training whatsoever. (they are weak because most people only have 2d6 PPE, but that's what it uses, 6 PPE)

Uhh, page number please?

World Book 14, New West, page 214, the TW-45 Six Gun and the TW-38 Endless Revovler.

the first one being a 6 shot 1d6 MD gun and the other one being a 38 shot SDC gun.

weak, but better than nothing.

Gotta disagree with you here.

The intent of the paragraph is to say the user does not need a specific spell (e.g. Globe of Daylight...) to recharge the weapon. True, it does state "just that he possess the necessary PPE or ISP to recharge the weapon" but that's not the same as saying anyone (Vagabond, Soldier, City Rat, etc...) can use it. The intent is that it does not require a specific spell to recharge. The user must still belong to a class that can utilize TW items (mages, psychics, supernatural, etc...).

I wouldn't apply that passage to any Joe Blow off the street, since it would complete alter how TW devices are used throughout the entirety of Rifts.

it also says does not require the user to be a sorcerer, mearly possess the necessary PPE/ISP to recharge the weapon with magical energy.

also "no actual spell knowlage required; to "dramatically incerase the number of poential usesers"

this also does not dreastically change how it's used thought rifts. why? becasue it's ONLY these two weapons, because they're DESINGED for it.

besides, looks at the PPE requirements of this comapred to others. 6 PPE. most people only have 2d6 PPE anyway. even if they COULD charge a battle fury blade designed for it, they couldn't because they don't have the PPE reqired.

[Mack]

Why do you apply that to the TW-38, when it's in the TW-45 write-up? And you exclude the TW Spitfire?

Regardless, I didn't say that you were dead wrong. Yes, the passage can be interpreted as your fashion. I just disagree with your conclusion. In my opinion, it does not grant mudanes the ability to recharge these TW weapons.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Why do you apply that to the TW-38, when it's in the TW-45 write-up?

because it says under it's discription "the "TW-38 has all the same basic features as teh TW Six-Gun but shoots magical, SDC/HP bolts of energy"

in other words, it has all the same features, including the ability for joe average to charge it, but is SDC damage rather than MDC like the 6 gun, in exchange for a MUCH greater payload.

And you exclude the TW Spitfire?

has no text in it to tie it with the TW Six Gun like the TW-38 did. nor does any other TW weapon or item of any kind, leading me to belive that they are specially designed so that joe average can use them.

why, well, it lets just about anybody use them, the point, but look at them, they're no PATHETIC compared to the others. so I see it as an acceptabe trade-off.

Regardless, I didn't say that you were dead wrong. Yes, the passage can be interpreted as your fashion. I just disagree with your conclusion. In my opinion, it does not grant mudanes the ability to recharge these TW weapons.

The intent of the paragraph is to say the user does not need a specific spell (e.g. Globe of Daylight...) to recharge the weapon. True, it does state "just that he possess the necessary PPE or ISP to recharge the weapon" but that's not the same as saying anyone (Vagabond, Soldier, City Rat, etc...) can use it.

well, I gotta say that I disagree with you there, but that's ok. it's your game.

I just gotta ask, just why are you aginst it anyway? it's useful because they're magical, but they're so weak as to make them alsmost useless compared to the other TW guns. why not make an execption just for them to make up for it?

[Jason Richards]

I just gotta ask, just why are you aginst it anyway? it's useful because they're magical, but they're so weak as to make them alsmost useless compared to the other TW guns. why not make an execption just for them to make up for it?

My opinion on this... allowing the mundanes out there to use TW of any sort is a slippery slope.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I just gotta ask, just why are you aginst it anyway? it's useful because they're magical, but they're so weak as to make them alsmost useless compared to the other TW guns. why not make an execption just for them to make up for it?

My opinion on this... allowing the mundanes out there to use TW of any sort is a slippery slope.

what, then just ANY item could?

sure, I have no problem with a Battlefury blade being able to be powered by a mundane. or just about anything.

the mundane dosn't have enough PPE so it's pointless and useless.

[Svartalf]

...
also, in Rifts New West, there are some TW guns that are modifyed so that ANYONE with enough PPE or ISP can charge it simply by putting the right amount in, even those with no magical training whatsoever. (they are weak because most people only have 2d6 PPE, but that's what it uses, 6 PPE)

Uhh, page number please?

World Book 14, New West, page 214, the TW-45 Six Gun and the TW-38 Endless Revovler.

the first one being a 6 shot 1d6 MD gun and the other one being a 38 shot SDC gun.

weak, but better than nothing.

Gotta disagree with you here.

The intent of the paragraph is to say the user does not need a specific spell (e.g. Globe of Daylight...) to recharge the weapon. True, it does state "just that he possess the necessary PPE or ISP to recharge the weapon" but that's not the same as saying anyone (Vagabond, Soldier, City Rat, etc...) can use it. The intent is that it does not require a specific spell to recharge. The user must still belong to a class that can utilize TW items (mages, psychics, supernatural, etc...).

I wouldn't apply that passage to any Joe Blow off the street, since it would complete alter how TW devices are used throughout the entirety of Rifts.

it also says does not require the user to be a sorcerer, mearly possess the necessary PPE/ISP to recharge the weapon with magical energy.

also "no actual spell knowlage required; to "dramatically incerase the number of poential usesers"

this also does not dreastically change how it's used thought rifts. why? becasue it's ONLY these two weapons, because they're DESINGED for it.

besides, looks at the PPE requirements of this comapred to others. 6 PPE. most people only have 2d6 PPE anyway. even if they COULD charge a battle fury blade designed for it, they couldn't because they don't have the PPE reqired.

Please Nekira, read again... I'll quote from the text of the TW 45 6 gun

"their greatest advantage is also their greatest drawback : they must be charged with PPE by a wizard or psychic. This is a disadvantage to people who have neither psychic nor magical powers because they cannot use these devices"

Those items are standard TW items, and not usable by mundanes[/b]

[Nekira Sudacne]

...
also, in Rifts New West, there are some TW guns that are modifyed so that ANYONE with enough PPE or ISP can charge it simply by putting the right amount in, even those with no magical training whatsoever. (they are weak because most people only have 2d6 PPE, but that's what it uses, 6 PPE)

Uhh, page number please?

World Book 14, New West, page 214, the TW-45 Six Gun and the TW-38 Endless Revovler.

the first one being a 6 shot 1d6 MD gun and the other one being a 38 shot SDC gun.

weak, but better than nothing.

Gotta disagree with you here.

The intent of the paragraph is to say the user does not need a specific spell (e.g. Globe of Daylight...) to recharge the weapon. True, it does state "just that he possess the necessary PPE or ISP to recharge the weapon" but that's not the same as saying anyone (Vagabond, Soldier, City Rat, etc...) can use it. The intent is that it does not require a specific spell to recharge. The user must still belong to a class that can utilize TW items (mages, psychics, supernatural, etc...).

I wouldn't apply that passage to any Joe Blow off the street, since it would complete alter how TW devices are used throughout the entirety of Rifts.

it also says does not require the user to be a sorcerer, mearly possess the necessary PPE/ISP to recharge the weapon with magical energy.

also "no actual spell knowlage required; to "dramatically incerase the number of poential usesers"

this also does not dreastically change how it's used thought rifts. why? becasue it's ONLY these two weapons, because they're DESINGED for it.

besides, looks at the PPE requirements of this comapred to others. 6 PPE. most people only have 2d6 PPE anyway. even if they COULD charge a battle fury blade designed for it, they couldn't because they don't have the PPE reqired.

Please Nekira, read again... I'll quote from the text of the TW 45 6 gun

"their greatest advantage is also their greatest drawback : they must be charged with PPE by a wizard or psychic. This is a disadvantage to people who have neither psychic nor magical powers because they cannot use these devices"

Those items are standard TW items, and not usable by mundanes[/b]

please, read further.

The TW six gun is UNIQUE because it DOES NOT require the user to be a sorcerer. . .

the above paragraph was discribing TW items in general. the grammar of the passage clearly indicates the aobve to be overruled by the following paragraph.

[Svartalf]

Sorry... but I stick to my earlier remark. my quote is right.

It does say that the user does not have to be a sorcerer, just have the necessary PPE/ISP, indeed, but it goes on to add that most TW stuff requires a huge amount of PPE ... this implies that this mention designates users as "awakened" people, as opposed to mundanes, just that they don't need the huge PPE reserve of a full wizard.

[Svartalf]

Edi what? speak of something that happens around here, please

[Nekira Sudacne]

Sorry... but I stick to my earlier remark. my quote is right.

It does say that the user does not have to be a sorcerer, just have the necessary PPE/ISP, indeed, but it goes on to add that most TW stuff requires a huge amount of PPE ... this implies that this mention designates users as "awakened" people, as opposed to mundanes, just that they don't need the huge PPE reserve of a full wizard.

umm, scartalf, I'm afraid I have to inform you that whatever grammar book your using is either out of date or being misinterpreted by you. that is not correct.

[Svartalf]

Sorry... but I stick to my earlier remark. my quote is right.

It does say that the user does not have to be a sorcerer, just have the necessary PPE/ISP, indeed, but it goes on to add that most TW stuff requires a huge amount of PPE ... this implies that this mention designates users as "awakened" people, as opposed to mundanes, just that they don't need the huge PPE reserve of a full wizard.

umm, scartalf, I'm afraid I have to inform you that whatever grammar book your using is either out of date or being misinterpreted by you. that is not correct.

My grammar is perfect. It says, in those very words.
This is a disadvantage to people without psychic or magical powers, because they cannot use these devices

Since this statement is a) perfectly clear, b) consistent with the workings of most TW devices, it must be regarded as correct, and the one that follows is either incorrect or unclear and in need of qualification ... which qualification I have provided to my statisfaction. now we might put it to votes to see who thinks my interpetation is right, and who'll support yours.
I've done a lot of exegetic analysis these last 20 years, both in trying to understand ill written RPG rules, and as a law student... I am pretty confident in my skills at parsing sense from texts.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Sorry... but I stick to my earlier remark. my quote is right.

It does say that the user does not have to be a sorcerer, just have the necessary PPE/ISP, indeed, but it goes on to add that most TW stuff requires a huge amount of PPE ... this implies that this mention designates users as "awakened" people, as opposed to mundanes, just that they don't need the huge PPE reserve of a full wizard.

umm, scartalf, I'm afraid I have to inform you that whatever grammar book your using is either out of date or being misinterpreted by you. that is not correct.

My grammar is perfect. It says, in those very words.
This is a disadvantage to people without psychic or magical powers, because they cannot use these devices

Since this statement is a) perfectly clear, b) consistent with the workings of most TW devices, it must be regarded as correct, and the one that follows is either incorrect or unclear and in need of qualification ... which qualification I have provided to my statisfaction. now we might put it to votes to see who thinks my interpetation is right, and who'll support yours.
I've done a lot of exegetic analysis these last 20 years, both in trying to understand ill written RPG rules, and as a law student... I am pretty confident in my skills at parsing sense from texts.

except that the first paragraph is very clear that it's talking about TW guns IN GENERAL, not having to do with the TW Six Shooter at all.

the NEXT paragraph discuss the Six Shooter, and how it's UNIQUE.

[Svartalf]

Nekira. there is a general section about TW weapons BEFORE the start of the 6 gun one. The first paragraph is fully applicable to this particular weapon.

Also, If you'll read your vaunted second paragraph till the end, you'll notice that not only do they amplify their statement that you don't need to be a sorcerer by mentioning that this one only takes modest amount of PPE/ISP to charge, by saying that other TW products need vast amount of such to function, they also add that this possibility of charging with PPE/ISP vastly widens the number of potential users as opposed to such items as require actual spell knowledge and casting to charge.

Also, if that weapon were useable to just anybody, and not only the magically/psionically active, the charging requirements would mention only PPE, not ISP, since if *just anybody* could use them, and for a modest contribution too, then ISP requirements for the psychics, as opposed to magically active, would not be required... psionics would not be getting a special treatment... or it would be mentioned that such weapons are especially desirable to them, would it not?

[Mack]

...
I just gotta ask, just why are you aginst it anyway? it's useful because they're magical, but they're so weak as to make them alsmost useless compared to the other TW guns. why not make an execption just for them to make up for it?

Let me approach this from a slightly different angle. For about a decade TW items could not be used by mundanes. If the author of New West intended to change that, there would have been a big ol' banner in the book saying "look here, something different" as opposed to being buried within a single item's description. If the author had intended such a distinct change, it would have been explicitly spelled out. Additionally, I don't know of anything previous to New West, or since then, that allows mundanes to re-charge TW items (I could be wrong here--I haven't read everything).

I don't argue that it would be useful for mundanes. It's just not consistant with anything else and requires an interpretation of the text I don't see.

[Jason Richards]

Nekira. there is a general section about TW weapons BEFORE the start of the 6 gun one. The first paragraph is fully applicable to this particular weapon.

Also, If you'll read your vaunted second paragraph till the end, you'll notice that not only do they amplify their statement that you don't need to be a sorcerer by mentioning that this one only takes modest amount of PPE/ISP to charge, by saying that other TW products need vast amount of such to function, they also add that this possibility of charging with PPE/ISP vastly widens the number of potential users as opposed to such items as require actual spell knowledge and casting to charge.

Also, if that weapon were useable to just anybody, and not only the magically/psionically active, the charging requirements would mention only PPE, not ISP, since if *just anybody* could use them, and for a modest contribution too, then ISP requirements for the psychics, as opposed to magically active, would not be required... psionics would not be getting a special treatment... or it would be mentioned that such weapons are especially desirable to them, would it not?

I was just about to mention the paragraph that svartalf led with. If you read that, then go into the weapon descriptions, there is no way to come out with anything except for what has become traditional TW function. You have to pump in PPE or ISP, but don't have to actually cast spells.

Mundanes can not use this weapon (or any other) aside from the normal exceptions previously stated (children, those who grew up using them, or can channel any form of energy such as PPE, ISP, or Chi).

[Rallan]

Let's be honest folks. The Techno-Wizard OCC was just another one of those cases where the coolness of an idea sorta went beyond the bounds of what Palladium's system can handle (it is, after all, not the coolest of systems). Short of a heroic set of house rules or a very flexible and innovative GM/Player team, it's gonna be a major uphill battle to make Techno-Wizards anywhere near as groovy as they were originally intended to be (but at least the gap between intended coolness and practical coolness ain't _quite_ as big as Cybermages from Through The Glass Darkly...).



Rallan

[Nekira Sudacne]

...
I just gotta ask, just why are you aginst it anyway? it's useful because they're magical, but they're so weak as to make them alsmost useless compared to the other TW guns. why not make an execption just for them to make up for it?

Let me approach this from a slightly different angle. For about a decade TW items could not be used by mundanes. If the author of New West intended to change that, there would have been a big ol' banner in the book saying "look here, something different" as opposed to being buried within a single item's description. If the author had intended such a distinct change, it would have been explicitly spelled out. Additionally, I don't know of anything previous to New West, or since then, that allows mundanes to re-charge TW items (I could be wrong here--I haven't read everything).

ummmm. . .the way I see it, the author wanted to make two EXCEPTIONS, NOT change the rule as a whole.

I don't argue that it would be useful for mundanes. It's just not consistant with anything else and requires an interpretation of the text I don't see.

yea, an exception isn't consitant with the rest of the rules. . .how about that.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Nekira. there is a general section about TW weapons BEFORE the start of the 6 gun one. The first paragraph is fully applicable to this particular weapon.

Also, If you'll read your vaunted second paragraph till the end, you'll notice that not only do they amplify their statement that you don't need to be a sorcerer by mentioning that this one only takes modest amount of PPE/ISP to charge, by saying that other TW products need vast amount of such to function, they also add that this possibility of charging with PPE/ISP vastly widens the number of potential users as opposed to such items as require actual spell knowledge and casting to charge.

Also, if that weapon were useable to just anybody, and not only the magically/psionically active, the charging requirements would mention only PPE, not ISP, since if *just anybody* could use them, and for a modest contribution too, then ISP requirements for the psychics, as opposed to magically active, would not be required... psionics would not be getting a special treatment... or it would be mentioned that such weapons are especially desirable to them, would it not?

I was just about to mention the paragraph that svartalf led with. If you read that, then go into the weapon descriptions, there is no way to come out with anything except for what has become traditional TW function. You have to pump in PPE or ISP, but don't have to actually cast spells.

Mundanes can not use this weapon (or any other) aside from the normal exceptions previously stated (children, those who grew up using them, or can channel any form of energy such as PPE, ISP, or Chi).

right, I understand that paragraph. I re-read it multiple times during this thread.

it means that you don't have to have ANY spell knowlage at ALL (that is, can be mundane) and charge the weapon.

[Svartalf]

...
I just gotta ask, just why are you aginst it anyway? it's useful because they're magical, but they're so weak as to make them alsmost useless compared to the other TW guns. why not make an execption just for them to make up for it?

Let me approach this from a slightly different angle. For about a decade TW items could not be used by mundanes. If the author of New West intended to change that, there would have been a big ol' banner in the book saying "look here, something different" as opposed to being buried within a single item's description. If the author had intended such a distinct change, it would have been explicitly spelled out. Additionally, I don't know of anything previous to New West, or since then, that allows mundanes to re-charge TW items (I could be wrong here--I haven't read everything).

ummmm. . .the way I see it, the author wanted to make two EXCEPTIONS, NOT change the rule as a whole.

Thing is, like mack said, if it were aimed at being an exception, it would have been stated MUCH more clearly, and that sentence in par 1 about it not being usable by beings with no psionic or magic powers would just not be there.

[Nekira Sudacne]

...
I just gotta ask, just why are you aginst it anyway? it's useful because they're magical, but they're so weak as to make them alsmost useless compared to the other TW guns. why not make an execption just for them to make up for it?

Let me approach this from a slightly different angle. For about a decade TW items could not be used by mundanes. If the author of New West intended to change that, there would have been a big ol' banner in the book saying "look here, something different" as opposed to being buried within a single item's description. If the author had intended such a distinct change, it would have been explicitly spelled out. Additionally, I don't know of anything previous to New West, or since then, that allows mundanes to re-charge TW items (I could be wrong here--I haven't read everything).

ummmm. . .the way I see it, the author wanted to make two EXCEPTIONS, NOT change the rule as a whole.

Thing is, like mack said, if it were aimed at being an exception, it would have been stated MUCH more clearly, and that sentence in par 1 about it not being usable by beings with no psionic or magic powers would just not be there.

ummm. . . I'm gonna have to ask what's wrong with some of you people that's as clear to me as daylight

[Svartalf]

ummm. . . I'm gonna have to ask what's wrong with some of you people that's as clear to me as daylight

Rather funny ... it's some time that I'm wondering just the same about you.

[Mack]

it means that you don't have to have ANY spell knowlage at ALL (that is, can be mundane) and charge the weapon.

Ahh, and here's where we differ. IMHO, not having spell knowledge is not the same as being mundane.

[Svartalf]

it means that you don't have to have ANY spell knowlage at ALL (that is, can be mundane) and charge the weapon.

Ahh, and here's where we differ. IMHO, not having spell knowledge is not the same as being mundane.

As per TTGD where an acolyte can cast no spells, but has more ppe and has magic knowledge?

or as per being a wizard, but not knowing the *required* spells, or being psychic and not knowing any spells at all

[Svartalf]

precisely. I was amplifying on your response, rather than countering it.

[Temporalmage]

This has came up several times on these boards before. The last time it was argued for about 30 pages or more. There are a few TW items that "Hint" that a mundane person can use them, the TW 6 shooter being one of them. ( I can name half a dozen) Admitedly all of the hinting is done in the description of that weapon, or what is generaly refered to as flavor text. Those, like myself and apparently Nekira Sudacne, believe that there are TW weapons and items that mundane's can use. Thus exceptions to the general rules of Techno-Wizardry. Because in the flavor text of those particular items it states this. Others, like svartalf and Mack, can't or wont' conceed that perhaps what the author wrote is exactly what he intended. Thus you have a never-ending spiral that eventually has everyone doing nothing but repeating themselves and name calling. Because the OLD ONES of Palladium refuse to get involved in any way with these topics, and so do not give us, the walking wallets called fans, a difinative answer. Why don't they give us an answer you ask? It's because they are evil and enjoy the disharmony these small hints cause in us little peaple. They are OLD ONES after all!!
I can say this though, I find it interesting that those that are against mundanes useing TW items often reply that those places that state mundanes can use them are "Just flavor text". And stating that flavor text shouldn't be confused with general rules. Yet in some other argument they will jump on the "flavor text" of an item like it was the holy grail, and to be believed because it's been written and passed by the great Old One KS, so must be true. Well folks, ya can't have it both ways. Either flavor text means nothing, or it means something.

[Mack]

For clarification, I'm not saying a couldn't pull the trigger and shoot a TW revolver. Just that they couldn't re-charge it afterwards.

[Nekira Sudacne]

For clarification, I'm not saying a couldn't pull the trigger and shoot a TW revolver. Just that they couldn't re-charge it afterwards.

well mack, I like you well enough but I'm afraid that we're going to have to agree to disagree.

I LIKE the idea of there being a couple weak TW weapons (1d6 MD and 4d6 SDC, come on people) that ANYONE can use. and the text seems to support that they can, so. . .

if you don't like it, well, it's your game, run it your way and have fun all

[Display-Name-Alpha]

If you go by the book rules, each TW item can only have 4 "enchantments upon them" it doesnt give time or anything liek that to create, so thats left up to the GM....

But power armor has 2 arms, two legs, a head, a body, vibroblades (usually) and several other "parts"

But just two arms, two legs, head and body, thats 24 enchantments. And if you can charge them all so that the use need only pump in like 50 PPE to activate all of them... 50 PPE charges an energy amplifirer, and then powers all of the abilities simultaneously.... THink of the power you could have.. Strength of the whale, strength of the earth, little force, super human speed, magical adrenal rush, impervious to energy, invulnerability, invincible armor, wall of wind, beat insurmountable odds... the list goes on to how much you could advance yourself... and all of this in cheap average every day samson poweramor