RADAR for Dummies

[Shin Kenshiro]

At the request of Omni, I'm drawing on my knowledge of RADAR (Radio Distance And Ranging) to enlighten those on the boards just what this mystical stuff does and how you can defeat it.

How does RADAR work?
RADAR is actually radio waves sent out at incredibly high frequencies, averaging in the 7-10 Ghz spectrum, that bounce off anything solid in their path, and return to where they originated at such high speeds that you can detect movement of certain sized objects. It is sent out in waves, not one continous stream, and the faster a RADAR can send and receive its waves, the better it can track movement. It is also not radiation.

Myth:
By flying under 500 feet in any aircraft, you can go below RADAR detection
Truth: You can only fly under RADAR if you are lower than the angle it is aimed at. Meaning you could fly under detection if it was aimed above sea level and you were flying at/below sea level.

Myth: RADAR can pick up anything around it, even through solid mountains.
Truth: RADAR screens will just show you a big ole' picture of the general shape of the object it can face, meaning if you pointed a RADAR at a mountain, you'd only see the front of the mountain on your screen, and anything behind it would be impossible to detect. This is why RADAR systems are placed on top of mountains and aimed down (no, you don't actually have to point the dish down to do this, modern systems can be told where to direct the beam)

Myth: You can see RADAR waves on ultraviolet/IR scopes
Truth: Since RADAR waves are nothing more that high powered radio waves, no, you cannot see them.

Myth: Chaff can jam any RADAR
Truth: Chaff (lots and lots of metal flakes/pieces about the length of Coke cans), will only confuse RADAR of comparable size...hence why chaff is used as a decoy to missiles, because to their systems, chaff suddenly appears to be a bunch of planes, rather than just one. In order to use chaff on a standard ASR RADAR (Air Surveillance RADAR), IE: the big rotating dishes seen at military bases and airports, you'd need chaff the size of cars launched into the air

Myth: RADAR can be jammed with white noise
Truth: RADAR jammers operate by sending out massive amounts of high power radio frequencies (RF) with no signal on them (something akin to the white noise concept). Modern US aircraft have the capability to block out a large band of frequencies (in layman's terms imagine losing your radio's ability to pick up some of your favorite radio stations, but not all of them...kinda like losing 89.9 FM to 100.0 FM.....you still have some left over), and what they do is block out the most commonly used frequency ranges. So, since one plane can't knock out all the availables, 2-3 planes are sent up, which then provides the RADAR blanket that people think of when they hear RADAR jamming

Myth: RADAR can pick up any kind of movement
Truth: It depends on the size of the object. Low powered systems (these are the typical motion detectors found in home security and ground based infantry perimeter security) can detect movement at normal speeds on anything from gopher to car sized objects, but doesn't send out its pulses fast enough or far enough to be able to pinpoint things moving at high speeds...meaning a SAMAS would show up as 1 or 2 blips before it was right on you, and the space between the blips would make it appear as if it was a glitch rather than a target. Medium powered ones are the dishes seen that are used to pick up helicopters and jets, but since they are larger, they are unable to pick up human height targets, but anything flying over 15 feet on level ground is going to be seen. High powered systems are the ones used to detect incoming missiles, long range bombers, and other high altitude targets. However, while they have great range, they mainly pick up high speeds and large targets, and these are the ones that can be avoided by flying low.

Hope this helps everyone out. And the sensor systems on aircraft/robots would be the medium type, while SAMAS and other smaller power armors would in reality have the small type, though in the RIFTS future, one can assume that the smaller type could pick up mini-missiles, though regular missiles are far to fast...the suit would most likely have a RADAR detector built in that would sense incoming RADAR guided missiles. As for heat-seeking missiles...kiss your SAMAS goodbye, as there is no way to detect those yet.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Awhile back there was a debate about the capabilities of radar in Rifts, which resulted in Kuseru posting this basic radar guide: http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/radar.htm

[Shin Kenshiro]

Thank you! Thankyouhatnkyouthankyou!

But I have a few questions:

Microwave RADAR? How effective is it? My understanding is that it can pass through non-metal objects of a certain thickness depending on the wavelength of the beam? Any input?

Handheld RADAR units in a forest = worthless, no?

Dust storms, high concentrations of refractive particles (not chaff, atmospheric phenomenon, snow, etc.) would obliterate a signal like this, or will it only lessen resolution on objects in the area of effect?

Kuseru's RADAR page, while informative, doesn't really detail much about what RADAR can and cannot do. Another problem with it is that alot of people don't know what beam attenuation is. The purpose of this little mini-guide is to allow those without a background in electronics to get a bit of insight into basic RADAR workings...that being said, Microwave RADAR.....

Microwave systems can "see" through certain objects provided they aren't very dense. Case in point would be you could see through a partition, or a thin wall in a house or office building and detect movement (RADAR is used to pick up movement, you'd need one super powered system to get a detailed view of a room, or the RADAR power from HU, though you'd only get crude outlines), but you would be unable to see inside the same building while standing outside due to the thickness and density of the outer walls.

Handheld RADAR units in a forest are not rendered useless, but in game aspects, apply a -10 to 20% on Read Sensory Instruments depending on how thick the forest is. In a rainforest/jungle canopy, I'd drop it by 30% unless standing still, then go to -20%. The reason behind this is that since the waves can't bypass trees, the system can only find things moving as they go between the trees. So you'd most likely see a target appear for a moment, then disappear behind a blank spot on the screen. However, this can be used to your advantage. By watching the way the target appears and disappears, you'd be able to determine just where it was going almost as well as if it was able to be seen the whole time.

Any other questions regarding the subject, feel free to ask.

[Mack]

I try not to get wrapped up in this kind of thing in Rifts. While most vehicles are described as having a Radar system, I just mentally replace that with "really cool sensor system that'll be invented 100 years from now."

That solves all the problems.

[grandmaster z0b]

So for simplicities sake, could we assume that the RADAR in an environmental suit can only pick up human-sized to PA sized targets near ground level, and RADAR in Robots can pick up human to Robot sized targets either on ground or flying targets as high as say, 1000ft or so. Only anti aircraft- based robots or flying PAs have a RADAR good enough to pick up really fast moving objects like a SAMAS, and will still have problems with a Jetfighter.

Thanks for the advice by the way, it's most appreciated.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Why does radar only detect movement, Shouldn't it detect any abject that bounces the radio signal back at it or does it filter that to reduce display clutter?

What sort of Radar did the police use prior to getting laser speed guns. I heard that at some Motorcycle Grand Prix that they could not detect the speed of a bike because it was mostly carbon fibre (it would have been doing 250km/h or 150mph)

[Shin Kenshiro]

To answer Zob's question first, you've got a pretty good grasp on what the different armor's would be like. Think Aliens when you imagine the kind of sensor systems available to body armors and less sophisticated power armors.

Why does radar only detect movement, Shouldn't it detect any abject that bounces the radio signal back at it or does it filter that to reduce display clutter?

What sort of Radar did the police use prior to getting laser speed guns. I heard that at some Motorcycle Grand Prix that they could not detect the speed of a bike because it was mostly carbon fibre (it would have been doing 250km/h or 150mph)

All RADAR systems are pre-set to filter out all non-moving returns with a press of a button, but you can turn them off just as easily if you wanted. The problem with RADAR is that it doesn't paint a very pretty picture, so unless the RADAR has been fine tuned (on average, about an 8 hour maintenance job to adjust everything), 98% of operators have the settings for moving targets only. The RADAR guns send out low powered radio waves like a motion detector, and due to their lower capabilities, are now being replaced nationwide by good old LIDAR. And since LIDAR relies on a continuous IR beam, it allows for better detection.

As for the carbon fiber bikes, it would be due to a combination of the following...
The bike's frame was less dense (so it could go alot faster) and had different angles in its design
RADAR guns are lower quality pieces of equipment that can be fooled after a certain speed since they're not usually tuned to pick up speeds like that.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Thanks. this is one very cool thread.

re: the GP bike. the police where using one of the standard radar guns, all other bikes where OK as they had big Aluminium Frames but the cagiva only had the engine as the main metal component.

[Shin Kenshiro]

Thanks. this is one very cool thread.

re: the GP bike. the police where using one of the standard radar guns, all other bikes where OK as they had big Aluminium Frames but the cagiva only had the engine as the main metal component.

One thing about metal is that it reflects the hell out of RF waves, like tapping a spoon on a champagne glass, you get a crystal clear sound. Stealth systems implemented on planes are both a RADAR absorbent paint (highly classified, and since it's chemical, no...no operator would know how to make it or copy it. Even if they had analytical chemistry, it'd take years to crack how it's done), and a special shaping and angling of the metal used. One that doesn't give the waves a good way to bounce back.

So your special frame bike is already at an advantage because its design and composition makes for a less likely RADAR target with a very very basic RADAR design and its already small size. No by the way, a car made like that wouldn't fool the same gun, size does matter. And since RADAR guns have all the computing power of a couple Texas Instruments calculators, voila...something easily fooled.

[Shin Kenshiro]

I aim to please. Or at least for the face....

[Jagged Spear]

I got a question regarding radar. How hard is it for a radar user to change frequency if they are being jammed (I assume its fairly obvious to see if you are being jammed) and are jamming systems designed to try to match the new frequency or can the pilots pick new frequency ranges?

[Shin Kenshiro]

I got a question regarding radar. How hard is it for a radar user to change frequency if they are being jammed (I assume its fairly obvious to see if you are being jammed) and are jamming systems designed to try to match the new frequency or can the pilots pick new frequency ranges?

When the signal is sent out at a certain frequency, the system looks for a return on the same frequency. If it doesn't get anything, it switches to the next frequency and tries again, then repeats the process. Keep in mind this happens within microseconds of each other so it covers every frequency it's set for. As for jamming, what you most commonly see is a whited out screen due to massive amounts of noise on the signal. The audio equivalent would be the static noise you hear on a radio when changing the dial.

Now, RADAR's that have been set to deny jammers most commonly use what's called "frequency agility" which is where the system will randomly pick a frequency, use it once, then pick another at random and so on and so on. No jamming system can nail every single frequency at once, and with the speed of computers, frequency agility provides for very very hard system to jam. Also built in is a detection system that identifies someone's trying to jam the RADAR as well as the direction it's coming in.

This is what the Marines use, and we've heard many MANY Prowler crews brag about how no one can see anything in the air when they're up there, and our replies were always "Actually, we saw everything and we knew exactly where your pretty little jamming bird was." Then we proved it......they didn't like that.

[glitterboy2098]

in an old popular science i read about active stealth, or a plane that beams back a signal on the radar's frequency in such a way to "blank out" the radars signal, thus making it practibly invisible to the radar.


is this possible, and what would the drawbacks be?

[glitterboy2098]

active stealth sends out a wave form opposite that of the broadcasting radar. the two waveforms cancel each other out when they meet, effectivly erasing both signals. it should not show up on the radar screen because there is no signal going back.

[Nekira Sudacne]

the most colpleate RADAR jammer then would be actually a series of thuosnads of radios, each one whiting out one frequency but there is a radio for EVERY frequency. big and bulky but if it's powerful enough it could totally jam a large geographic reigion.

that right?

[glitterboy2098]

i doubt its past the theory stage. this article was from the early 90's, and states that the FRENCH were the only ones that are known to be working on it.

i have no doubt that it would work, assuming the frequency thing can be ironed out, but i doubt we will see it anytime soon. (but with the super tech of rifts? who knows. )

[Jagged Spear]

Now, RADAR's that have been set to deny jammers most commonly use what's called "frequency agility" which is where the system will randomly pick a frequency, use it once, then pick another at random and so on and so on. No jamming system can nail every single frequency at once, and with the speed of computers, frequency agility provides for very very hard system to jam. Also built in is a detection system that identifies someone's trying to jam the RADAR as well as the direction it's coming in.

This is what the Marines use, and we've heard many MANY Prowler crews brag about how no one can see anything in the air when they're up there, and our replies were always "Actually, we saw everything and we knew exactly where your pretty little jamming bird was." Then we proved it......they didn't like that.

Thanks for the replay

Now a further question arrises from your replay, I guess we can assume that every major Rift power would be using RADAR with "frequency agility" function so does that make jamming basically useless? Add to that fact that you can trace the source of the jammer it seems to me stealth tech is really the only way to go.

[Zer0 Kay]

At the request of Omni, I'm drawing on my knowledge of RADAR (Radio Distance And Ranging) to enlighten those on the boards just what this mystical stuff does and how you can defeat it.

How does RADAR work?
RADAR is actually radio waves sent out at incredibly high frequencies, averaging in the 7-10 Ghz spectrum, that bounce off anything solid in their path, and return to where they originated at such high speeds that you can detect movement of certain sized objects. It is sent out in waves, not one continous stream, and the faster a RADAR can send and receive its waves, the better it can track movement. It is also not radiation.

Myth:
By flying under 500 feet in any aircraft, you can go below RADAR detection
Truth: You can only fly under RADAR if you are lower than the angle it is aimed at. Meaning you could fly under detection if it was aimed above sea level and you were flying at/below sea level.

Myth: RADAR can pick up anything around it, even through solid mountains.
Truth: RADAR screens will just show you a big ole' picture of the general shape of the object it can face, meaning if you pointed a RADAR at a mountain, you'd only see the front of the mountain on your screen, and anything behind it would be impossible to detect. This is why RADAR systems are placed on top of mountains and aimed down (no, you don't actually have to point the dish down to do this, modern systems can be told where to direct the beam)

Myth: You can see RADAR waves on ultraviolet/IR scopes
Truth: Since RADAR waves are nothing more that high powered radio waves, no, you cannot see them.

Myth: Chaff can jam any RADAR
Truth: Chaff (lots and lots of metal flakes/pieces about the length of Coke cans), will only confuse RADAR of comparable size...hence why chaff is used as a decoy to missiles, because to their systems, chaff suddenly appears to be a bunch of planes, rather than just one. In order to use chaff on a standard ASR RADAR (Air Surveillance RADAR), IE: the big rotating dishes seen at military bases and airports, you'd need chaff the size of cars launched into the air

Myth: RADAR can be jammed with white noise
Truth: RADAR jammers operate by sending out massive amounts of high power radio frequencies (RF) with no signal on them (something akin to the white noise concept). Modern US aircraft have the capability to block out a large band of frequencies (in layman's terms imagine losing your radio's ability to pick up some of your favorite radio stations, but not all of them...kinda like losing 89.9 FM to 100.0 FM.....you still have some left over), and what they do is block out the most commonly used frequency ranges. So, since one plane can't knock out all the availables, 2-3 planes are sent up, which then provides the RADAR blanket that people think of when they hear RADAR jamming

Myth: RADAR can pick up any kind of movement
Truth: It depends on the size of the object. Low powered systems (these are the typical motion detectors found in home security and ground based infantry perimeter security) can detect movement at normal speeds on anything from gopher to car sized objects, but doesn't send out its pulses fast enough or far enough to be able to pinpoint things moving at high speeds...meaning a SAMAS would show up as 1 or 2 blips before it was right on you, and the space between the blips would make it appear as if it was a glitch rather than a target. Medium powered ones are the dishes seen that are used to pick up helicopters and jets, but since they are larger, they are unable to pick up human height targets, but anything flying over 15 feet on level ground is going to be seen. High powered systems are the ones used to detect incoming missiles, long range bombers, and other high altitude targets. However, while they have great range, they mainly pick up high speeds and large targets, and these are the ones that can be avoided by flying low.

Hope this helps everyone out. And the sensor systems on aircraft/robots would be the medium type, while SAMAS and other smaller power armors would in reality have the small type, though in the RIFTS future, one can assume that the smaller type could pick up mini-missiles, though regular missiles are far to fast...the suit would most likely have a RADAR detector built in that would sense incoming RADAR guided missiles. As for heat-seeking missiles...kiss your SAMAS goodbye, as there is no way to detect those yet.

Argh where does your knowledge come from? The GPN-21 (USAF ASR) transmits between 2700 and 2900 MHZ or for the metric challenged 2.7-2.9 GHz. This is generated in a Maggie (Magnatron). Radar jamming can be specific the jamming aircraft picks up the radar frequency while doing a broad spectrum jam then is able to do a narrow band jam that allows it to put more power into it. Why because the broad spectrum you mention has a point called burn through where as it gets closer to the radar site the power of the radar out powers the jammer. With narrow band you can get closer. You can still get an idea of where the aircraft is though because only that segment of the radar will be whited out or blanked. The myth about seeing through solid objects may have come from the ASRs capability to predict for a short period where the aircraft should go and displays it on the screen. The part about flying under the radar some radar are set to have a minimum distance above ground in my case we have it set so it doesn't pick up crop dusters. As far as "large scale" radars not being able to pick up small objects. Ever heard of the NEXRAD or the GPN-22 PAR? The NEXRAD is able to pick up dust particles. The GPN-22 PAR was originally designed to pick up missiles. The size of detectable object is dependant on the pulse width, minimum range by "silent time". And the shape of the beam which could very well cover high and low altitude is determined by the shape of the antenna. There are also other tricks for coverage area, for example the ASR has two feed horns one TX and RX the other RX but the RX only or passive channel picks up close in high altitude returns and the TX/RX or active channel primarily picks up far out high and low altitude and close in low altitude targets. There are other things to reduce jamming the TPS-75 uses phased coding and also switches between 24 frequency ranges. The GPN-21 basically uses it's dual channel frequency's to avoid jamming and MTI to reduce fixed jamming or other interference caused by fixed targets.

[Zer0 Kay]

Is anyone that originally did this post a RADAR technician? I'm a 2E051 in the United States Air Force (trans. Ground Radar Technician). Does everyone realize all radar is microwave? Heck the first microwave ovens were called radar ranges and were originally "invented" by a guy who was working on the original radar systems. He got the idea while they were testing transmitters and the trasmitter melted some chocolate he had in his pocket. When I say RADAR technician I mean a real one not like the Trolls (Air Traffic ConTROLLers) who for whatever reason at tech school have started calling themselves radar controll navigation maintainers so as to make themselves sound more important.

[Zer0 Kay]

If you all would like I'll freakin type out and post the entire CDC minus the questions and answers and anything that may be considered a non-disclosure issue. Trust me though it's a slow borring read. Or I could type the theory of opperation from the technical orders if I'm allowed to.

[PigLickJF]

Not really sure what you're so worked up about Zer0, replying to yourself like that. Not trying to be offensive here, but you come off as very angry and defensive in your last three posts, despite nobody so much as even posting between them, let alone disgreeing or arguing with you.

That being said, as he pointed out in his first post, he was just trying to give some quick guidelines in layman's terms to people who don't know anything (or much) about radar. Although I don't believe he stated it in his thread, in the "What's your expertise" thread linked on the first page, he does indeed say he's a radar tech for the US Armed forces (don't remember the branch or details, you can check them out for yourself if you like). Bringing up all the specifics and details is not what he was after. I'm sure there is tons of stuff he ignored/left out/glossed over, etc, but this isn't exactly a simple topic, as you obviously know. He wasn't trying to teach a course in radar technology, just give some general information that interested parties might like to put to use in their game, since most normal people don't really know much if at all about what radar is, how it works, etc.

PigLick

[Shin Kenshiro]

Is anyone that originally did this post a RADAR technician? I'm a 2E051 in the United States Air Force (trans. Ground Radar Technician). Does everyone realize all radar is microwave? Heck the first microwave ovens were called radar ranges and were originally "invented" by a guy who was working on the original radar systems. He got the idea while they were testing transmitters and the trasmitter melted some chocolate he had in his pocket. When I say RADAR technician I mean a real one not like the Trolls (Air Traffic ConTROLLers) who for whatever reason at tech school have started calling themselves radar controll navigation maintainers so as to make themselves sound more important.

While I appreciate your zeal in dealing with this stuff, perhaps you should have read the part about how it was a quick explanation of what a RADAR can and cannot do in most circumstances.

As for WHO and WHAT I did that enabled me to write this thread, I'm a former US Marine RADAR Technician with 5+ years experience in dealing with RADAR theory and Marine Corps RADAR equipment. Now I'm sorry if we don't have the Air Force systems that will not only pick up a booger flying across the room of a building 2 miles underground in a country 10,000 miles away, but we have to make due with what we can in a service that is regularly given the shaft in both equipment and budgets.

[Zer0 Kay]

Is anyone that originally did this post a RADAR technician? I'm a 2E051 in the United States Air Force (trans. Ground Radar Technician). Does everyone realize all radar is microwave? Heck the first microwave ovens were called radar ranges and were originally "invented" by a guy who was working on the original radar systems. He got the idea while they were testing transmitters and the trasmitter melted some chocolate he had in his pocket. When I say RADAR technician I mean a real one not like the Trolls (Air Traffic ConTROLLers) who for whatever reason at tech school have started calling themselves radar controll navigation maintainers so as to make themselves sound more important.

While I appreciate your zeal in dealing with this stuff, perhaps you should have read the part about how it was a quick explanation of what a RADAR can and cannot do in most circumstances.

As for WHO and WHAT I did that enabled me to write this thread, I'm a former US Marine RADAR Technician with 5+ years experience in dealing with RADAR theory and Marine Corps RADAR equipment. Now I'm sorry if we don't have the Air Force systems that will not only pick up a booger flying across the room of a building 2 miles underground in a country 10,000 miles away, but we have to make due with what we can in a service that is regularly given the shaft in both equipment and budgets.

Sorry like you said overly zealous with my job, all the other guys in my shop complain but I like it. Even at a fixed stateside station I get the pride of knowing my NEXRAD helps save lives in Tornado Alley. As far as USAF Radar the everyone elses ASR have klystron amps which are better the the maggies but we and the FAA are going to DASR Digital ASR. Which is really cool. I don't know does likeing this stuff so much make me a Geek. Probably but that's alright at least I don't have a pocket protector (because I can't find one) and a pair of duct taped glasses (because I have 20/20 vision and USAF won't let me wear non prescription glasses). As far as the superior Radar you depict I love the booger imagery.

"Hey bob is that a UFO?" "No Dave it's Saddam sneazing." "Should I mark it for an attack?" "Only if you think the cost of the loogie outweighs the cost of the missile."

Your's isn't the only one that get's shafted we get it to just in a different way. Bent over with our hands on a firm surface. The DASR upgrade was supposed to be installed this year it's now set for 2007 since we're a training base. Oh well If you can't beat them become a Senator.

I wanted to take this uh small space to say thank you. I realize my branch is the least combat oriented. I realize yours is one of the most and that it is you guys (marines) and the army that do most of the dirty work and I understand that it is primarily the job of the airforce and navy to transport you guys around, try to soften up your target and hopefully make your missions a little more safe. So THANKS for being a MARINE.

On the other hand what the HELL convinced you to be a Marine? Hell we call the Army mobile sandbags. You guys are just tougher (at least I think so, at least a little crazier). All though I'd say our Para Rescue guys are crazier. Watch out bad guys I'm coming into a hotzone with a sub machine gun and a med kit! Or maybe our Combat Air Controller (affectionately called by RADAR techs Combat Air Trolls).

"OK guy here's what were going to do were going to go behind enemy lines and take one of their airfields so we can use it. Now hopefully they won't notice were coming. Hopefully once were there they won't notice we've taken over. Hopefully once we've taken over they won't realize....Hey our airstrip is taken over and it's a large target lets go and blow it up."'

But again Thanks.

[Zer0 Kay]

While I appreciate your zeal in dealing with this stuff, perhaps you should have read the part about how it was a quick explanation of what a RADAR can and cannot do in most circumstances.

So why didn't you just say "It reflects of anything, its ability to translate the return depends on the purpose of the RADAR."?

[Mack]

in an old popular science i read about active stealth, or a plane that beams back a signal on the radar's frequency in such a way to "blank out" the radars signal, thus making it practibly invisible to the radar.

is this possible, and what would the drawbacks be?

Uhh, finding a pilot might be a problem. Since your going to fly through a combat zone broadcasting your position to everyone. And yes, they could follow you based on signal strength.

[Zer0 Kay]

Not really sure what you're so worked up about Zer0, replying to yourself like that. Not trying to be offensive here, but you come off as very angry and defensive in your last three posts, despite nobody so much as even posting between them, let alone disgreeing or arguing with you.

That being said, as he pointed out in his first post, he was just trying to give some quick guidelines in layman's terms to people who don't know anything (or much) about radar. Although I don't believe he stated it in his thread, in the "What's your expertise" thread linked on the first page, he does indeed say he's a radar tech for the US Armed forces (don't remember the branch or details, you can check them out for yourself if you like). Bringing up all the specifics and details is not what he was after. I'm sure there is tons of stuff he ignored/left out/glossed over, etc, but this isn't exactly a simple topic, as you obviously know. He wasn't trying to teach a course in radar technology, just give some general information that interested parties might like to put to use in their game, since most normal people don't really know much if at all about what radar is, how it works, etc.

PigLick

I'm too lazy to go back in and edit my original post and figure out if what I add in sounds good the way it is or if I have to edit the previous text. So I just make a new one. Or I have a bad habit of not reading all the post in the thread so I comment as I come across stuff.

As far as why some of the information seemed to be incorrect and my love for my job made me jump on him like a rabid bunny. I'd still argue his comment on "microwave radar" being able to see through thin walls only if they are made of fiberglass or a like material. At ranges the beam is probably to weak to penetrate.

[Zer0 Kay]

in an old popular science i read about active stealth, or a plane that beams back a signal on the radar's frequency in such a way to "blank out" the radars signal, thus making it practibly invisible to the radar.

is this possible, and what would the drawbacks be?

Uhh, finding a pilot might be a problem. Since your going to fly through a combat zone broadcasting your position to everyone. And yes, they could follow you based on signal strength.

uh you mean how the EF-111 does and the F-15E?

All aircraft with jamming can be detected unless the radar guy is a twit. They will get general direction of the aircraft and should dispatch interceptors to the area.

[Zer0 Kay]

Not to mention a decent HARM missile could be launched at that aircraft with the jammer's blaring radio energy into the environment.

That is what HARM type of missiles are for. They go after radio signals. I was never in the military (civilian avioics technician for my background) so I don't know the statistics of the HARM in detail. However, I do know that if it likes radio/radar signals from the ground that it would like steering towards an airborn version just as well.

I really like the design concept I saw for the Eurofighter's HARM missile. It had a 2 step attack sequence.

1. Ground Radar is turned on
2. Eurofighter detects that energy, and fires an Anti-Radiation missile at it (HARM)
3. Ground radar picks up the missile and the crew shut it down to try and save their radar dish from being blown up.
4. The HARM loses it's target, but knows the general area. It turns tail and rockets straight up into the sky as high as it can go. It then pops a small parachute and dangles nose down from the parachute.
5. The Ground Radar is switched back on.
6. The HARM detects this, cuts loose from the parachute and glides unpowered towards the radar dish, hopefully to hit it this second time.

Of course there is always passive stealth or worse Invisibility: Superior for TW enhancement.