Snipers? Where? (Scopes, Sights and Laser Targeting)

[R Ditto]

I have come to wonder what the opinions of others are when it comes to various things like various scopes, weapon sights and even laser targeting (or lack thereof) on weapons in Rifts (and other settings).

Do you feel there is an accurate portrayal and functionality of such things in Rifts and other Palladium game settings?
Do you feel such things are common enough and well done, or something that seems to be rarely touched upon or otherwise in need of work in order to work effectively?
Just how many places do you know of, in Rifts or other Palladium books, where it lists such things as scopes/sights for "Sniper" weapons, or gear/items/equipment used for increasing the accuracy of weapons?

To get things rolling, here’s my opinion on the subject.

I’ve seen the occasional weapon with a bonus to strike from the weapons themselves, like Wilk’s lasers, and laser targeting on weapons, but not much for scopes.
This opinion comes from the Juicer Rifles in the RMB. They are listed as having a telescopic scope with infrared, but the only bonus is from the laser targeting system.
In Source Book 1 and Triax/NGR, there is a Triax Sniper Laser that only has an infrared telescopic sight, but it gets a +1 strike.

I can’t help but wonder if that +1 strike for the Triax sniper laser (or others) is from the sight/scope, or just from the weapon being accurate. This comes also from certain rifles that have a picture indicating a scope, but have no mention of a scope or telescopic sight in the description, yet still have a bonus to strike. It becomes hard to tell if the weapon is just “accurate” or if has anything to do with how the weapon is aimed, or if/how the aim is assisted.

I overall find it silly that a little Wilk’s 320 Laser Pistol (+2 strike) is overall more accurate than some high precision sniper weapon (including a laser weapon) decked out with a fancy scope, targeting sights, or even a laser targeting system like the JA-11 & JA-9 from the RMB. Weapons such as the JA-11/JA-9 are supposed to be high accuracy weapons, with telescopic infrared scope, but the only bonus they get is +1 strike to an aimed shot from the laser targeting system.

This overall doesn’t seem right to me. There seems to be a lack of something that effectively puts the "Snipe" into Sniper, in Rifts. It’s nice to know that if a character needs to snipe someone, the ideal high accuracy weapon of choice is a laser pistol with a 1000ft range...

[Shin Kenshiro]

Well, Kevin points out that one thing people seem to ignore for their own arguments (Relax, not talking about you), is that no matter what the system, you STILL have to apply logic. if you take everything by displayed stats, you get the whole concept of "I have 140 SDC (in HU), I'll take that grenade blast and dust myself off, it's only 60 points".

This is how I apply what you're talking about in regards to sniping weapons of Rifts.

When you read weapon bonuses, I believe that if they say +1 and don't mention laser targetting, it's because of the weapon balance. One key thing to remember is that just because you have a sight on a weapon, DOESN'T mean that the sight has been adjusted for the shooter. Laser targetting is good in that it tells you where your energy beam is going to go (no energy weapon has any trajectory other than straight, no arcing no nothing.)

Another thing to remember is that a laser sight is the infamous "red dot" on someone's body. It projects a beam onto someone and you'll see where your round is going to hit. Problem is, even with the holographic ones (they look like a scope mount with a small single lens at the end with crosshairs inside, when the beam is on, you can see it through the lens. Used almost exclusively on handguns, occasionally seen on submachine guns), that beam only goes so far. Maxed out for a human's vision would be 30 feet. As for anyone with super vision, the beam is still only for targetting and won't be a coherent sight past 50 feet. So an infrared scope can pick up that laser targetting beam and NOW you get your bonus at long range.

I overall find it silly that a little Wilk’s 320 Laser Pistol (+2 strike) is overall more accurate than some high precision sniper weapon (including a laser weapon) decked out with a fancy scope, targeting sights, or even a laser targeting system like the JA-11 & JA-9 from the RMB. Weapons such as the JA-11/JA-9 are supposed to be high accuracy weapons, with telescopic infrared scope, but the only bonus they get is +1 strike to an aimed shot from the laser targeting system.

It shouldn't seem silly. Handguns are used in close combat (1-25 ft), and a sniper rifle should never be used in that kind of situation. A well balanced and accurate handgun still won't hit a damn thing past 150 feet without a scope (Unless the character is a sharpshooter, takes a long time to aim, like half of all his melee actions, and is shooting at a non-moving target) since the weapon will be shaking to much from the natural movement of the body (Breathing, heartbeat, etc) and iron sights alone won't help you stay on target. Pistol sights are much larger than rifle ones because of the range they are used for.

This overall doesn’t seem right to me. There seems to be a lack of something that effectively puts the "Snipe" into Sniper, in Rifts. It’s nice to know that if a character needs to snipe someone, the ideal high accuracy weapon of choice is a laser pistol with a 1000ft range...

Another thing to remember is that if you're using a dedicated sniper rifle, chances are you have the skill "Sniping". That +2 to strike only applies to sniper rifles, which also takes your +1 to strike and makes it +3 at long ranges, now add in W.P. Rifle (Energy or Bolt Action) bonus of +3....think about that for a moment. Taking your time on a long distance shot from 500 yards or longer (That's 1500-3000 feet for most rifles in Rifts) with a final bonus of +6 (which will now negate any penalties of a moving target the GM might want to chuck at you) who will very likely never see you no matter where he looks. In the hands of a trained sniper, no other weapon is that accurate.

If anyone honestly thinks that you could hit a man sized, hell even light robot (10-15 tall) with a handgun at 1000 feet no matter how insanely balanced it is, without a scope...I will tell you right now it is impossible. EVEN if it's an energy weapon.

Scopes on rifles are what brings the enemy to you, without having to leave your nicely camoflauged hiding spot. They just negate the penalties you'd have to take from making a long distance shot with your naked eyes.

Food for thought.

[Borast]

In answer to (I believe) the original question...

I remember noting in one of the core books somewhere, that LASER sights give the shooter a +3 to hit. Telescopic sights provide a +1.

However, I do agree with the point that just because the rifle can shoot 1000m, and the targeting beam (in an atmosphere) can probably reach 5-600 metres before becoming to de-focused to be used, even with a telescopic sight you're NOT going to see (the laser dot) at more than 1-200 metres!

[grandmaster z0b]

I think the biggest problem is that even if the rules reflected the advantages /disadvantages of sniping, one would never do it because in Rifts you can almost never kill anyone with it on the battlefield.
Traditionally a sniper would lie in wait until an officer (high ranking preferred) would reveal himself, then shoot him in the head. One shot kill. Now in Rifts it's almost impossible to snipe unless you sit and wait until an officer takes off their helmet, not that unreasonable, but pretty boring in a game and risky considering he may not take off his helmet at all. To make sniping in Rifts more plausible and fun you either need to make;
1. A sniper weapon that can actually take out a helmet in a single shot,
2. A rule that allows snipers to hit a weak spot that goes through the armor (which I prefer) or,
3. Change from a full MDC to an SDC system with an AR

I remember downloading an "Advanced Sniper" skill from a fan site, it was much better as the preparation time was vitally important, and the skill got better as one went up in levels, like hand to hand skills.
I don't have any snipers in my playing group, but if I did I think I would use that skill and also say that any shot over 20 including bonuses does double damage. Given that most helmets have only a percentage of the overall MDC this at least gives a chance of penetration.

[grandmaster z0b]

zOb,

Check the rules for sniping in Rifter #23

Thanks, but why exactly? I don't like just buying Rifters unless I know they're worth it, especially considering I live in Australia and it is both hard to find and quite expensive to buy new Rifters.

[Dustin Fireblade]

zOb,

Check the rules for sniping in Rifter #23

Thanks, but why exactly? I don't like just buying Rifters unless I know they're worth it, especially considering I live in Australia and it is both hard to find and quite expensive to buy new Rifters.

The CS TAG (Target Acquisition Group) article by John Stevens. Having to play in a PBeM with said author as a TAG operator I can vouch for the rules. Works very well.

There are some other good articles in there as well, the Blade Mage comes to mind first off.

[PigLickJF]

I'd say the lack of range modifiers plays a big part in the relative lack of sniper mechanics in Rifts (and Palladium in general). The basis for their to-hit system is pretty wonky to start with, and that's not even getting into all the many various issues of lack of modifiers, contradictory and seemingly nonsensical rules, etc etc. It's part of the constant struggle we see on these boards betwwen more complex, realistic combat and quicker, simpler combat. You can't really have both. Rifts went very far to the "quick and simple" side (or at least tried to, initially). (Of course, they went so far to that side that it left tons of strange holes, and when players started asking about them, they started trying to patch the holes knee-jerk style. These knee-jerk, fairly shoddy patches began to pile up, some of the patches themselves had problems and needed repair, and the result is a system which is really...well, unique). Kev et al definitely seemed to want a high-action, cinematic small-scale combat system, not a combat simulator. Sniping has it's polace in such a system, but in general it doesn't seem to have figured into the plans for combat in Rifts.

PigLick

[Randomfist]

At 200 yards a sniper worth his weight in real life can hit a pie-plate sized target over 98% of the time, easy. This does not translate into the game very well but since it is a RPG it doesn't need to. I think the TAG rules work fine.

[Dead Boy]

My opinion on the mater of scopes and optics is that they should be able to offset the range penalties one incures with modern weapons. For example, the threshhold for nominal and long range shooting is 60 feet, where the To Hit number jumps form a 5 or better to an 8. If you have a rifle of whatever type with a scope that has X4 magnification then that threshhold should be raised by a factor of 4, making that 60 feet into 240 feet. Quick, easy, and to the point. Just the way it should be.