Weapon Differentiators

[Zer0 Kay]

My House Rules on "modern" weapons.

Projectile (also applies to all other firearms except where noted)-
-Can't be dodged unless the weapon/shooter can be seen. It is the weapon not the projectile you dodge.
-Are fast, all dodges ore done as straight rolls (no bonuses, unless stated specifically for ranged combat)
-Are loud and move the target in the opposite direction of the impact. Because of theis the attacker may be traced by following the noise and the direction from which the shot came. If an observer is familiar with the firearm being used they can even judge distance if the attacker fires multiple shots.
-Damage caused by a combination of blunt trauma (hydrodynamic shock) and piercing (causing double damage on critical hits.)

Lasers-
-Are invisible, so can't be visually tracked back to the attacker, unless passing through a mass of particulate matter, like smoke. (someone recently mentioned to me that lasers of MD magnitude will superheat the air and turn it to plasma. There was a special on NOVA about space propulsion... anyway they were using a SDI laser to demonstrate laser propulsion it fired up into the bottom of a disk that had a special reflector. Once it hit this reflector it created plasma and propelled the disk upward. There's two things to note from this special. First, the laser was INVISIBLE to the human eye. Second, the laser was powerful enough that they had to put an ablative pice of armor over it so that if it missed the disk it wouldn't fire into space and possibly knock out a sattellite)
-Are silent, so they can't be audibly tracked back to the attacker.
-Large "caliber" lasers (i.e. vehicle mounted or ATLs) produce an electrical snap as their capacitor discharges, but the noise produced can only be heard in the immediate area of the weapon.
-Are light therefor they can be reflected. However, different frequencies of light can pass through different reflective surfaces (I usually have my players with AL armor pick a number from 1 to 10 before the game when combat starts any VF laser weapons roll a d10 if it isn't the number roll another d10 for how many shots it will take to match freqs.)
-Are really fast, hmmm a laser travels at the speed of uh...light, because of this the target is -10 to dodge. (If there are any arguments about "I can see the light when it's fired." That's right that means the beam is already there.)
-Damage is piercing heat. It will penetrate armor and flesh, but cauterizes wounds causing no blood loss (causing damage and a half on critical hits.) May also want this to stop regenerating creatures from doing so.
-Damage is resonant. Against vehicles the damage is greater because the metal doesn't give as much as flesh the laser superheats the crystaline structure of the material and causes it to burst. Another variation on this could be if it struck something that the beam just happened to be in harmonic frequiency to. (Either way a critical causes 2x damage)

Plasma-
-Is very hot, it's extreme heat leaves behind a "con-trail". The contrail is easy to spot and track back to the attacker.
-Is very bright and relatively slow, and therefore casy to see as it travels toward the target. +4 to dodge if target is at Max or Max-100'.
-Is contained in a magnetic field called a bottle. When the plasma strikes an electronic device that is not shielded against EMP it has a 5% chance of disabling any component in the immediate area, roll until a component shorts or there are no components in the same area to roll for. Also due to the magnetic bottle the plasma may be redirected by sudden large magnetic anomalies (i.e. a Boom gun firing, some sort of magnetic shield that is the same polarity of the bottle, [select guns polarity before game]).
-Is a superheated gas. When the plasma strikes a solid object the bottle collapses, releasing the plasma. When released the plasma will act like a fluid and splash. This creates a small splash radius of about 5'.
-Damage is surface heat. It will not penetrate anything unless it is completely burned away. (Because of this no critical damage is done. ) May also want this to stop creatures from regenerating.

Particle Beams-
-Fire a laser beam nanoseconds before firing the particle beam. This is done to produce an ionized path for the beam that is clear of particulate matter.
-Are not completely cohesive it has a dense core surrounded by a periphery of less dense particles that were traveling slower, or ran into anomalous particulate matter, and get deflected out of the core. Due to this even a near miss up to 5 points off causes one quarter damage.
-Are invisible, so can't be visually tracked back to the attacker, unless the laser passes through a mass of particulate matter, like smoke.
-Are silent, so can't be audibly tracked back to the attacker.
-Large "caliber" PB weapons (i.e. vehicle mounted or PBCs) produce an audible energy pulse as the accelerator magnets fire this can only be heard in the immediate area of the weapon.
-If something is able to deflect the laser before it reaches its target the PB will drastically loose range and damage. One half of the remaining range and damage (i.e. if a weapon's rates are 200' @ 2D6MD and it traveled 150' already it can only travel an additional 25' doing 1D6MD.)
-Even though PB weapons fire a laser, laser resistant armor does not effect the damage.
-Damage is penetration. The weapon does damage by shoving billions of particles through a body at near light speed thereby creating an equal number of micro holes in the target. (Critical hits cause 2X damage.)
-Damage is explosive. Against vehicles the damge is greater because the metal doesn't give as much as flesh the impacts actually cause micro explosions as they split molecules. (Critical hits cause 4X damage.)

[Zer0 Kay]

There isn't quite enough weapons diversity in RIFTS, in my humble opinion. That is, there are several different kinds of weapons but we dont really know what differentiates them aside from damage potential. Here are some ideas.

Lasers: Cheap, capable of burst-fire, capable of armor piercing. Can be countered by laser-resistant armor. Precision weapons. Generally long-range.

Ion Guns: Not quite as cheap, capable of burst fire, not capable of armor piercing. Has special "Ionization" effects on matter (for example, if fired in space into a dust cloud, will damage everything inside the cloud). Indiscriminate weapons. Electrical based damage.

Particle Beams: Heavy damage, shortest range, single fire. Armor-piercing. Precision weapon. Can cause knockdown (but still an energy weapon).

Plasma: Heavy damage, short range, single fire. Not armor-piercing. Heat/Fire based damage.

So what's this mean? Imagine 4 boulders, and you have 4 energy weapons of sufficient power to damage/destroy the boulder. One of each type.

The laser will shoot a hole straight through the boulder.
The ion gun will zap the entire surface of the boulder facing the blast.
The particle beam will blow it up into chunks.
The plasma gun will melt the boulder.

Why do you keep bringing up armor piercing there is no AP even in SDC worlds they never had a rule for AP rounds. They just said it and didn't give any bonuses

[Zer0 Kay]

In my games, lasers make noise even in space. They are red but sometimes green.

Your a silly Star Wars fan aren't you. So am I however, I also know that Harlan Ellison once asked George Lucas why he had sound in space. Lucas said "They expect it."

Malignor in real life the cause of the damage you list is quite real. The weapons grade lasers cause superheating and crystaline resonance in most materials causing the area they hit to explode. Here is a pulse laser developed from SDI technology. http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=light-propulsion.htm&url=http://www.lightcrafttechnologies.com/gallery_video.html
The sound it is making after the charge sequence (which would probably be much shorter in Rifts probably also muffled) is created by the plasma burst created after it hits the underside of the disk and is refocused to superheat the air. Note the actual laser is invisible, even though many people think that a beam of that power should produce visible light by vaporizing air and dust particles. Hope you enjoyed.

[Borast]

Zer0 Kay...the only argument I have is with your plasma weapons...

Terrestrial plasma weapons don't actually create a plasma...they instead create a...for lack of a better word, thermal wave front that causes massive overheating in a confined area (20-30cm diametre area of effect). I know Kevin wrote it as a kind of "super napalm," but in order to do that, you'd need a tank of volatile fuel, not just a 300 gram battery.

Naruni weapons on the other hand, DO generate a small amount of plasma when the cartridge is fired (trade secret).

[Zer0 Kay]

Zer0 Kay...the only argument I have is with your plasma weapons...

Terrestrial plasma weapons don't actually create a plasma...they instead create a...for lack of a better word, thermal wave front that causes massive overheating in a confined area (20-30cm diametre area of effect). I know Kevin wrote it as a kind of "super napalm," but in order to do that, you'd need a tank of volatile fuel, not just a 300 gram battery.

Naruni weapons on the other hand, DO generate a small amount of plasma when the cartridge is fired (trade secret).

What about my Plasma? The magnetic bottle? The gasious nature? You do know they create plasma? Those funky electric balls are actually plasma spheres. Scientists use plasma when experimenting with particles in particle accelerators and as I said before the main problem is the magnetic bottle they contain the plasma is degraded by the intense heat. So the bottle has to be continuously regenerated. Now either Rifts plasma is like you stated it NOT A PLASMA. Or it is a plasma and scientist figured out something like a resonance between the plasmas heat and the magnetic bottles field so that it deosn't degrade. Maybe when ever you fire the weapon it also fires a small supercap that powers the field? Don't know like always play it your way I'll play it mine. But I still want to know what part your problem is with. Oh a weapon that does create plasma...Rail guns (the real ones) The armiture that fires the round turns to plasma.

[Borast]

What about my Plasma?
>KA-snip<
But I still want to know what part your problem is with. Oh a weapon that does create plasma...Rail guns (the real ones) The armiture that fires the round turns to plasma.

Try not to shoot a pot of coffee just before sitting down to type, eh?

My problem was using "real" plasma with Rifts "plasma" weapons.

Yes, I knew about scientists making plasma in the lab. In fact, there is a group in Oz looking to use, essentially a plasma charge to destroy toxic waste in an environmentally friendly manner. Can't remember much detail though...

However, if you were using "real" plasma, yes I can see the rules as you laid them out working well, although you wouldn't need a magnetic bottle, just use an ionising laser to create an electrically conductive path, and send the plasma surfing the charge towards the target! After all, yes, it WOULD be exploding outwards, but it would be travelling fast enough to the target that the vast majority would hit it before it dissipated (and that would give you your "splash" effect.
I also agree, that due to the degree of hard radiation it pumps out, whatever it hit would have (at a minimum) a static wash on all it's electronics. (Theoretically, it should also give you quite the electrical overload too... )


ANYWAY...the purpose for this reply (silly me I forgot and am typing this in an Edit moment...)
Yes, I was aware of the plasma created by (some) railguns. I have one novel where the badguys were using a similar railgun. It used a heat-resistant plastic called lexan for the bullets. While Lexan is not suceptable to magnetic manipulation, they way they went around that is simple... They put an aluminum skirt (also non-magnetic) around the back end of the plastic slug, and using a rapid fire gas gun, fired the shell into the breech of the railgun. When the skirt (which is too big to fit into the barrel) hits the rail, it is travelling so fast that it turns into a plasma field, which IS magnetically manipulatable. The rails then grab the plasma, and throw it out the front of the barrel at obscene speeds (It could shoot at a sattilite in orbit and stand a good chance of taking it out based on a human visual identification, despite the orbital speed and reaction time of the gunner! (It also had a rate of fire on the order of about 3-5 rounds a second!)

[PigLickJF]

Here's something I wrote up awhile ago, but never did anything with, dealing with this subject. I tried to mesh reasonable scientific principle with Rifts pseudo-realism and super-science...

OK, this is something I was toying with awhile back, started to collect a bit of info on, then it sort of fell by the wayside and I never bothered to get back to it. I just came acriss it though, and figured I'd throw it up here for discussion and junk.

I feel that the different weapon types in Rifts could really use some more flavor. As it is right now, when choosing weapons most people look at damage first, then range and capacity, and finally maybe weight and any bonuses to hit or other modifiers. However, the actual type of weapon really makes very little difference. That's boring. We need to have different reasons to want to use different weapons other than how much damage it does. So, I started compiling different factors about the different weapon types, in an effort to give them each their own "personality" and characteristics, which would in turn add another level to tactical and strategic decisions, and in general more depth to combat. I was leaning more toward a "flavor text" type approach rather than hard rules and numbers, because in my opinion it's a bad idea to add too much complexity to combat. I was also trying to use the stats of already-existing weapons as a sort of guide, or starting point for some of the properties. It's also important to note that I was working on these in conjunction with some modified ranged combat rules I was thinking about, so some of the stuff I came up with pertained to that and may not have much to do mechanically with the current Rifts combat system. Like I said, it's very rough and incomplete, and without much organization, but if anyone has any input, ideas, or interest in this, I'd love to hear about it and flesh it out more.

Lasers: laser beams travel at the speed of light (duh), and are not affected by wind, gravity, etc, and have no recoil, which makes them highly accurate, especially against distant and/or fast-moving targets. They also have good range, and fair damage capacity and efficiency (which equates to shot capacity). Furthermore, they are invisible and nearly silent- the weapon itself may make a slight noise while powered on and at the time of discharge (cooling fans, electrical components, etc), and the target may emit a cracking/snapping/sizzling/zapping sound from the resultant heat and energy imparted on it, but the beam itself is silent, and even the weapon makes very little sound. The downsides, however, are that, being made of light, they are hindered by those factors which inhibit light- atmospheric conditions such as fog, rain or snow, smoke, dust, sand/dirt, etc would result in decreased ranges and damage capacity as the light is refracted/reflected by the particles in its path. Furthermore, highly reflective surfaces (such as the armor of the infamous Glitter Boy) will take reduced damage from lasers, as much of the light is reflected away.

Rail guns: Rail guns are, basically, electromagnetically powered machine guns. They fire large bursts of slugs that have been accelerated to terrific speeds by powerful electromagnetic fields. The upsides of rail guns are good range and fair damage capacity. In addition, since they damage by impact, they impart a large amount of pushback/knockdown force on their targets. This impact is easily powerful enough to knock most man-sized targets off their feet, and could potentially cause smaller flying vehicles (such as power armors and rocket cycles) to temporarily lose control. In addition, since their bursts usually consist of between 40 and 80 rounds, they can be used to spray an area, laying down excellent cover fire and potentially hitting multiple targets. This ability, combined with the knockdown power makes them excellent against advancing infantry or other small targets. The downsides of rail guns are primarily their size and weight. The weapons themselves are necessarily very large, bulky, and heavy. In addition to the weapon itself, you need to have a power supply and ammunition, both of which add further to the weight and size, and cause significant supply and logistics considerations. Rail guns are also very loud, both when fired and obviously as the slugs strike objects, and will emit muzzle flash, making them very noticeable when fired. Rail guns are also not as accurate, especially at range, as energy weapons, because the slugs have a relatively large mass and low velocity (meaning they are much more affected by wind, gravity, etc) and cause the weapon to have considerable recoil. For all of these reasons, rail guns are rarely used as infantry weapons, but are excellent for defensive emplacements/bunkers and use on power armors and other military vehicles.

**After this, things get a bit trickier. The other three weapon types would be particle beams, ion blasters/beams, and plasma weapons. However, I kind of got stuck on them, because in principle, they are all basically the same thing. Inside an atmosphere, a particle beam would be made up of a beam of charged particles, i.e. ions, which is exactly what an ion blaster is. Plasma, too, is nothing more than an ionic "soup." One main difference is that plasma is (usually) very high temperature, whereas particle beams/ion blasters do not necessarily utilize elevated temperatures. One idea I was toying with was that ion blasters and particle beams are actually the exact same technology, just called different things, depending on the producers (I even did a bit of research in the GMG, and it seems that only a couple of weapons producers make both types of weapons. Most make either particle beams, *or* ion blasters, but not both, which lends further credence to that theory). If I were to go with that angle, we could separate plasma weapons as relying more on the extreme temperatures to do damage (which I believe is the common view anyway), while ion/particle beam weapons are more kinetic-type weapons.

Ion/particle beam weapons: these weapons fire a concentrated beam of charged particles at near-light speeds. Because of this, they, like lasers, have the benefits of being very accurate especially against fast moving targets. These particles impart massive amounts of energy on the atomic level to the target material, heating them immesely and in effect causing them to explode (in much the same way as a laser). Unlike lasers however, smoke, precipitation, dust, etc will not impede or hinder the beams, and will have no effect on the range, accuracy, or power of these weapon types, nor will highly reflective surfaces. However, due to the properties of the particle beam, they do not have the potential range of a laser . They are also usually large and bulky, though they do not suffer from the need for ammunition, only power supply. Their power consumption is very large though, meaning they normally get fewer shots. Also, since they are essentially "lightning guns," they create bright flashes and loud "thunderclaps" when fired due to superheated and ionized air forming around the beam, making them some of the most noticeable weapons to use. They too are more suitable for use by large vehicles/armors, though smaller versions can be made suitable for use by infantry.

Plasma: plasma weapons fire a bolt or "glob" of plasma, which is in essence a superheated "soup" of ions at near-light speeds. The primary difference between plasma weapons and particle/ion weapons is that plasmas are much less dense, and rely on energy in the form of heat rather than kinetic energy from massive numbers of particles. Just as with lasers and particle/ion weapons, the near-light speed gives them good accuracy against long-range/fast-moving targets. Like ion/particle weapons they can cause devastating damage, but suffer from high energy consumption and short ranges, as the plasma quickly cools once leaving the weapon. The plasma bolts themselves are visible (though traveling extremely fast), and will result in a very noticeable glowing vapor trail, but are relatively quiet. Plasma weapons can be made relatively small and light, so that they can be suitable for heavy infantry use, though of course larger versions can be made for use by power armors and vehicles. Because they rely on heat energy and not kinetic energy to do damage, they will result in little or no recoil (for the firing party) or impact (to the target).

PigLick

[Zer0 Kay]

Ah ha PBW is a continuous beams like B5 cruiser cannons. Ion Weapons are essentially a combination between plasma and PBWs they use a magnetic bottle like plasma weapons and stuff it full of charged particles forming a Ion BOLT. Plasma is well plasma fired from the weapon and held together by a magnetic bottle.

[Zer0 Kay]

I've figured it out!
A particle weapon relies on kinnetic energy to damage the target. The beam is full of particles accelerated to near light speed (should cause more damage than IWs but requires more power. Also either takes longer to fire, causing lower firing rates or has a continuous acceleration cycle, consuming more power, that needs to be started and doesn't stop unless the weapon isn't used for a set period of time). Hmm sub-atomic particles accelerated to near light speed should be able to rip atoms apart. Severed atoms create atomic blasts. Maybe if a crit. is rolled roll again if a nat. 20 is rolled BOOM (use nuke missile).

An ion weapon relies on the electircal charge the particles carry and the heat released on impact to damage the target. The bolt contains particles with a high energy charge that have been accelerated (note: doesn't need to be near the speed of light). The electrical charge may overload sheilds, damage unhardened electrical equipment or those who's "hardening" has been breached.

Realize the ESD/EMP hardening is just ensuring that the charge doesn't enter the vehicle and stays on the "skin" (e.g. they're sealed possibly by simply giving the ES/EM a "safe" path to discharge to ground.)



FORGET THE SPEED OF LIGHT, I WANT TO KNOW THE SPEED OF DARK!!

[Saitou Hajime]

FORGET THE SPEED OF LIGHT, I WANT TO KNOW THE SPEED OF DARK!!

They are the same, dark is without light. as soon as you remove light it is dark.

[Svartalf]

Takumi san, charged particles as accelerated and used in PB guns or scientific cyclotrons have about nothing to do with electricity.


Such particles are imparted such a speed and enregy that they make a lighning bolt look like a guttering candle. Also, lightning bolts are electrons moving on an ionized path... much closer to what ion guns do.

[PigLickJF]

I'd like to see more organic weaponry... like in Systems Failure.

I'm guessing Splicers will have lots of that, unless I misunderstand what you're looking for.

PigLick

[Zer0 Kay]

FORGET THE SPEED OF LIGHT, I WANT TO KNOW THE SPEED OF DARK!!

They are the same, dark is without light. as soon as you remove light it is dark.

OK resurecting a dead thread just to respond to something I didn't read before (yah it's sad).

How so? If you remove a sphere of light that took up an area of space equavalent to one light year across or 186,000miles (distance light travels in a second) x 60 (a minute) x 60 (hour) x 24 (day) x 365 (year) = 5,865,696,000 miles it would be instantly filled with darkness. Even better a beam which is 186,000 miles across traveling through space does not terminate in a curve. Darkness does not take a second to replace the light as it passes it is instantly replaced.

They aren't the same because dark is not the absence of light, light is but a mask for darkness. Saying they are the same would be the same as saying that the ocean travels the same speed as a ship or that the water in the seas is the absence of ships. Water travels faster than the boat in the boat's wake filling the void which the ship has left. Darkness is eternal light is temporary. Darkness is infinite light is finite. Darkness is the water of oblivion filling in the void left by light always present and only masked by the illusion of illumination, in the end darkness wins because light expires.