When I was your age...

[Athos]

I agree. Look at Rifts Japan and you will see what has been around since before the cataclysm. I don't think the technology was ever completely lost.

[Sureshot]

Probably not lost. There were probably pockets of tech all over the place. The only problem is the rplacement of the power supply. Even if you use it only in emergencys it uses power. Once it's gone all you have is a suit of power armour or a robot which is useless except for spare parts. Things changed once you could have access to a power supply.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Check out the Aussie World Book.

They got some fair dinkum PA in there, mainly in the form of the Rusty Modular Power Armor. Perfect for a bit of blue in the arvo.

((Forgive the Australian Slang))

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Forgive the Australian Slang

You never need to apologize for Australian Slang my friend.

I know, but someone is bound to go: "What the hell did he just say!?!?"

[Braden Campbell]

Who has any idea what kind of PA would have been around (if any) thirty or forty years back in the RIFTS timeline. Not CS types or GB's, just regular old PA.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for bringing up a question that I can answer! And for making it a good question, not simply: "who would win...", or "what's your favourite..."

Though its not really the answer you're looking for, it might be of some help. Taken from a little thing I wrote on the Quality in Rifts board, circa spring 2000.
________________________________________________
________________________________________________

Here are the "facts" as I found today in the published Rifts books. I
think they will patch some holes in my proposed history of the CS,
but also raise a few questions.

I THINK I WAS WRONG ABOUT KARL BEING CHAIRMAN AT AGE 19.
The facts: we know he was born in 44 PA. Erin Tarn's diary dated 78
PA says "a despot named Karl Prosek sits as chairman-elect". So we
might think he was elected to office in that year, making him 34. But
wait. The Chi-Town Library was destroyed in 77 PA "five years after
Prosek rose to power." (Main) This would indicate that Karl was
Chairman no earlier than 72 PA. However, the Lone Star facillity
wasn't unearthed until 68 PA, and when it was, World Book #13 tells
us Karl Prosek knew of only one man, Desmond Bradford, who could make
it work and exploit its secrets. Given the importance of Lone Star,
the selection of who would lead the restoration project seems like
tha kind of act only the Chairman could make.

Conclution: I now believe Karl Prosek was elected to office no
earlier than 68 PA making him 24 years old.
______________________________________________

THE COALITION APPARENTLY HAD NO FORM OF BODY ARMOUR UNTIL 68 PA.
The facts: Erin Tarn writes that the Death's Head motif has been in
use by the CS "for nearly forty years". This was written in 78 PA,
making one think that Deadboy first came into use sometime around 38
PA. Wrong. The description of the armour in the Main Book clearly
says Deadboy armour was discovered at Lone Star "and has since been
duplicated at both Chi-Town and Free Quebec." Lone Star wasn't
discovered until 68 PA, as we have already established.

Conclution: The Coalition had NO personal body armour until the Lone
Star excavation in 68 PA. Chi-Town could not have the secrets of its
construction earlier than that, because they had to duplicate it; not
invent it. Likewise for Free Quebec.

______________________________________________

THE COLAITION DID NOT HAVE SAMAS UNTIL 78 PA. (CONJECTURE)
The facts: SAMAS in action is documented by Erin Tarn in 78 PA, one
year after the Great Fire. She says it is the first time she has ever
seen one, but notes that, unlike the originals she saw on film, it
has been changed to the Death's Head (WB #8).

Conclution: The Coalition wasn't likely to release SAMAS power armour
until records of its nature and construction were either destroyed or
hidden. Since the only records we know of were destoryed in the Great
Fire (77 PA), it is safe to assume SAMAS technology wasn't made
public until then. Of course, the construction secrets were more than
likely unearthed at Lone Star in 68 PA, meaning the CS knew how to
make them as early as then. As well, we know that the black Death's
Head was in use by this time.

__________________________________________________

I HAVE A THEORY ON HOW KARL WENT FROM ELECTED OFFICAL TO EMPEROR.
The facts: as already "proved", Karl Prosek must have held the office
of Chairman Elect no earlier than 68 PA. The Chi-Town Library was
destoryed in 77 PA. The records of that incedent are given by Erin
Tarn: "an un-natural (magic?) explosion and fire obliterated the
Great Library...143 died in the Library and hundreds of others were
injured. But the death toll would climb higher over the weeks that
followed, as the CS hunted down, and brought the alleged perpetrators
to justice." (WB #8) As well, Plato, an adult dragon, was head of the
Library until the Great Fire (whether or not his true nature was
known to the CS is unclear). She goes on to say that the government
claimed the Federation of Magic was to blame, and used it to launch
"one of it's bloodiest campaigns" against it. "1130 conspirators were
executed...2200 others disappeared".
To add we have the following: "General Underhill is a decorated
hero of nearly one hundred (94) military campaigns". (SB #1) He is
39 years old in the year 101 PA. If we assume he first saw action at
age 19, then the CS waged 94 military campaigns in the space of
twenty years, from 80 to 100 PA. (an average of 4.7 military
undertakings per year, which is pretty unheard of.)

Conclutions: From all this I assume that Karl was elected to office
around 68 PA, making him 24 years old. This gives him lots of time to
go to University, write his papers, start his brown shirt activites,
smoke some pot, whatever. When all the peices of the "new regime" are
in order, he sets up the Great Fire. It makes a perfect excuse for
suspending elections, and enforcing martial law, but just until those
responsible are rounded up. So it goes through legislation and Karl,
General Cabot and the others round up all of their enemies and kill
them (some possible 3300 people all told). Now, a masacre like that
obviously means that there is a huge conspiracy going on within the
CS, and spearheaded by the Federation. So, a Permanate Emergency Act
is put in place that remains to this day. Just when we think we have
the problen solved, another crisis reares its head, and has to be
taken care of. This explains the ridiculous number of miliatry
actions in so short a time, and all follwing a scant 3 years after
the Great Fire.
It also can be used to expalin why the CS is suddenly picking on
Tolkeen. There can only be so many members of the Federation of
Magic, and the CS has been killing them for over nearly forty years.
So the state would soon need to find a new great enemy. They know
that Tolkeen was once a member of the Federation (circa 10 PA or so),
so "now that we have killed the leader, we go after the followers"
sort of thing. People will go for it.
_________________________________________
One more thing: we know that Chi-Town could build giant robots as
early as 12 PA because they buuilt the first Enforcers in that year.
But they definatly did not have the more advanced stuff until 68 PA.

Brae.

More insight from the old timer...

[Braden Campbell]

Some additional thoughts on the above:

In my Historic Campaign (set in 12 PA) I gave the fledgling CS personal armour equivalent to Bushman. The cavalrymen had MDC barding for their horses. The Enforcer (original) was a 155mm howitzer on legs with no arms or head.

Free-flight rockets were mass produced in the same time period, but were like a WW2 bazooka...unguided.

And one other thing on the subject of the past. Remember that any CS citizen over the age of 42 can remember when the CS was NOT a police state. There was a Republic before Karl Prosek, with a Chairman, Elect, and presumably, some form of electoral process and parliamentary Senate.

[Braden Campbell]

Are there any suits of PA that could have been fielded forty years ago by a relatively well equipped mercenary army employed by a warlord in southeastern Texas. I'm talking about the rise of the Pecos Empire here...

Ah, I see. Very cool.

Some thoughts then for you from my "gaming book that was never finished", Rifts: The Historic Campaigns. Most of stuff in quotes are terms and ideas from this unfinished work of mine. Feel free to use them.

Forty years ago would have your campaign/adventure take place sometime around 68 or 69 PA. This si kind of cool, as you can tie in the first arrival of CS "technology acquisition teams" as they start looking for oil and gas in the "outer territories". (World Book: Lone Star. The cs is searching for fuel when they find the TexAm Complex.)

We now know that there has just been a major political shakeup in the Coalition States. Prosek is still Chairman Elect, and the Senate has not yet been dissolved by the "Permanent Emergency Act", but dark times are on the way. The CS military machine is gaining strength; think Germany 1937.

The first interesting question is: why are guys from the safety and security of Colfax, Illinois doing way out here? Well, as pointed out in Lone Star, they are looking for gas. Interesting. I have always taken this to mean that whatever fossil fuel reserves Old Man Prosek (re. Joseph I) had were just about gone, be they old Texaco stations or an oil tanker sitting in Lake Michigan. There is gas rationing in the Chi-Town. And if the CS is still running on petroleum, then nuclear fusion must be scarce, or reserved for military use. Or both.

Now the CS is the end-all be-all tech power in America, then as now. So if Chi-Town is running out of gas, what is everyone else using? Coal, probably and steam power. Wind turbines for a few communities with Operators. But all in all, the technology level of the United States outside New Quebec City and Chi-Town has gone back to the mid-1800's.

Since you are dealing with "the West", that general term for everything west of the Mississippi and south of St. Louis, you first and foremost need to examine its culture. For this we take a look at World Book: New West, and how the people in it emulate the mid-1880's.

My big problem with New West is that it never went into depth about how, or more importantly why everyone is using six shooters and horses, and dressing like the Victorians. For this you need to know about the devastating "10 Generational War". Briefly, following the Coming of the Rifts, the only places left that had MDC weapons and armour were military bases (and a few survivalist compounds). these became known as Enclaves. People thronged to them for protection, and for a while all was good. But as supplies of e-clips ran low, and spare parts to keep the power armour and robots going got thin, the enclaves had to find new sources: each other. So the Enclaves start raiding each other for supplies, and then these turn into all out wars. Remember, in the Rifts world, technology equals security.

So after 300 years of machines breaking, and e clips going dry, and the few surviving automated factories being razed to the ground, there is little to nothing left. For ten generations, the Enclaves fought over precious resources until there was nothing left. Almost everyone who knew how to build a laser pistol was long dead, even if they could have found the parts to do so. So people in the West began to fall back on technologies that they could build and maintain. They couldn't build a heavy particle beam, or an EMP device, but they could fill brass casings with gunpowder. When the robots couldn't be fixed, they went back to horses, and used the robots to make barding.

This is all part of my pet theory that Rifts can be an f-ing fantastic game if the technology level is scaled waaay back. First thing is does make anyone in full MDC armour a tough prospect, even if it's Bushman. Secondly, it gives you a real motivation to learn magic: you can't build a laser rifle to defend your family, but you don't need much to huck a fireball around.

The other thing it does is to make the Coalition a really, really dangerous foe, and without upping the rate of fire or damage of their guns. You are armed with a bow and arrow. They can still build combat jet aircraft. To them, high-tech is a Skelebot. To you, cutting edge is a repeating-match Zippo lighter.

Now this does not in any way mean that you can't or shouldn't have Texan outlaws who have done nothing but fight, practice a quickdraw, and ride horses since their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-granddaddy's day have power armour. BUT it does mean that since the Coalition does not have SAMAS yet (see above post), and that their seems to be no environmental armour heavier than Gladiator out there, that any kind of robotic system is going to be a) huge, because we lost the knowledge to build micro-anythings 250 years ago, and b)very, very worn in, because its been patched together since the Enclaves started fighting.

The over-all atmosphere is so cool, it makes me want to game again. What you end up with is Victorian BattleTech with magic, versus the Coalition with a 1950's feel. It's so screwed up, it could only be played out on Rifts Earth.

I would use Sampson Powered Armour as a template, and the rusty from Australia One. But there would never be more than 20 of these things all told. If you still want more armour, give the Pecos Raiders tanks. Good ol' fashioned 2098 USM-126 tracked howitzers, that fire 155mm cluster round shells and can auto load 6 shots per minute. Really. Use the tanks in Mercenaries as a guide, but get rid of anything with the word "laser". Shells we can build. Lasers, no. Back theses guys up with massed cavalry (Psi-Stalkers are good since they ride like nobody's business and are ambidextrous).

Have fun and remember, Reids Rangers wont be around for another 30 years, so no one in their right mind is going to go into Mexico...or follow you there should you have to retreat for a while and collect your thoughts.

[Dead Boy]

... but I guess what I'm really looking for, and should have stated in the first place, is this: Are there any suits of PA that could have been fielded forty years ago by a relatively well equipped mercenary army employed by a warlord in southeastern Texas. I'm talking about the rise of the Pecos Empire here. I was thinking along the lines of an old style of NG Sampson or something like the "Rusty" modular PA from Australia (which is an idea I just love).

This is far from a canon answer, but when this question arose in my game, the answer of whether the CS has power armor before the SAMAS had to be a resounding "Yes". To that end I made up a suit of power armor that I called the CPA-38 Grizzly which had been decommissioned for over 35 years as of the current time of 109 PA. As its name implies it is a Coalalition suit of Power Armor that entred into service as of 38 PA. Stat wise it was a 50 mph running, 180 MDC suit that could be piloted at the RPA: Basic level and had a a heavy (for its day) 2D6 MD laser cannon that was fully burstable (basically it's a hatch gun from the Mar V APC given rifle form). Being a primitive suit it did not have nuclear power, but instead a 168 hour battery life (1 week of continious use), and every shot fired by the laser (if not from an e-clip that is) used 5 minutes' worth of power (so 100 full bursts, based off a standard e/clip's power supply of 20 shots for the percentages on the burst rules, would fully drain the power armor's battery).

[Braden Campbell]

The only problem I'm having with your setup, Braden, is that it seems like too short a time period to go from the wierd steampunk/1950's tech to the stuff that abounds in Rifts today. What you are talking about, and I love the sound of it, sounds like it should come from closer to the very beginning of the PA calendar...

Ah. Now you have hit on my big problem with Rifts, and part of the reason I have trouble enjoying it like I used to. The technology in the game is waaay out of control. Things are simply not as much fun when every street punk and two-bit bandit is armed with enough firepower to hull a battle ship. Hence the reason I started developing the Rifts Earth's past...I could easily eliminate all kinds of things by simply saying: "Sorry, pulse lasers haven't been invented yet. Here's a C-10."

HOWEVER, the gigantic leap in technological achievement can be explained by the discovery of the Lone Star Complex. We know very well that it is was/is in near pristine condition. Not only did it allow CS scientists to unlock the genetic code (actually, they probably have no clue what they are doing, the machines are doing it all), but it also let them make SAMAS, Deadboy-style armour, and God knows what else. It is, without hyberbolie, the greatest single find in the world.

Consider the fact that within a few hours of its discovery, and entire Army is sitting on top of it. And they are still there. You only get this paranoid if the find is really, really good. And if you know all the things that it can give you, like power armour at the push of a button, then you sure don't want anyone else getting their hands on it!

Why? Because in Rifts, he who has the Tech, wins. Imagine for a moment what things would be like if the Pecos Empire had found Lone Star first.



Yeah. All the Sidewinders you can pilot. Robot horses and bionics for everyone. And, hey, did we mention that we can cure small pox? True, they probably wouldn't know enough about what they found to get the most out it, but those auto-facs seem to be able to make a LOT of guns...considering that all the SAMAS in the entire CS come from there and Chi-Town...and the Chi-Town factory was based on the one they found in Texas.

Finding the TexAm Complex is the kind of thing that radically overhauls an entire society. And Karl Prosek just happened to be there to catch the ball and run with it. Hell, the whole thing is more than likely run by a Cyberworks AI (non-sentient) and responds to voice command like the Enterprise-E. Desmond Bradford doesn't have to be a mad genius to run the place, he just needs a pleasant speaking voice and some command codes...

A cool adventure, but massive GM undertaking, might be a fight between an alliance of Pecos Bands, and the 4th Chi-Town Army, days after their arrival in Lone Star. No one ever needs to know what is buried under the sand, just that, if these guys think there's something good under there, then we want it to. It could set up an intertesting "what if the bandits got a hold of Lone Star first" kind of thing, which is always the best part about playing around in an historical fiction.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Braden, you simply must come to Detroit this minute and play (or better yet run) some campaigns for us. Failing that you'll neet to report to the Motor City so I can sysnthesize a capsule form of you and hand it out to all the gamers I know. We'll call it "Bradenol", you'll get a 20% cut of profits. "This kid wants to mount a "boom-Gatling gun on an Avenger PA With a super-heavy Naruni forcefield! We need twelve-hundred miligrams of Bradenol STAT!" Seriously Braden, do you live within 50 miles of Detroit? We could use a man like you here.

Will it be available in liguid form. I hate pills and so does some of my players.

[Braden Campbell]

Seriously Braden, do you live within 50 miles of Detroit? We could use a man like you here.

Closest major city to me is Toronto. Detroit would be about 8 hours by clunky Ford Explorer.

I would love to come game with you guys sometime. I just need to book it far ahead of time, so I can get out of work. Also, do I need a valid passport to get Stateside now?

[Apollo Okamura]

Actually, there's a couple of us Palladium Freelancers hiding out in and around the greater Toronto area. Of the bunch of us, I'm sure I've probably crossed the border the least.

All the times I've gone though, the first thing I've always been asked for is my passport. With all the worry about extra security these days, I wouldn't be surprised if it has become mandatory. Whether or not it actually is, I couldn't tell you, but I'd be prepared to being detained for quite a while, not to mention getting one heck of an evil eye, if I showed up without one.

Hope that helps,

Apollo