CyberKnights

[Marcethus]

OK I have seen many things on here saying that CK's are strangely powered and yet when they were listed in the main book. I feel that they just flat out sucked. What I want to know is Why do people feel that they are "Wrong-Powered." Personally I feel that even with the changes their psi-sword is still a bit underpowered when you look at the fact that a starting head hunter can most likely do 1d6x10 or more depending on the armaments they choose. I am just wondering as to why so many of you seem to think that the cyberknight has been tweeked for the worse. IMHO they have been made better for one it always has said that they fight evil no matter the form and they have always been called "cyber" knights and that their zen martial powers fits them very well. Now sorry for my ranting just was wondering about this.

[Athos]

You should start off with 1D6 pistols, 2D6 rifles, and 6D6 canons. Main book weapons to the extreme!!!

Like a boom gun that does 3d6 x 10 MD? What is wrong with a juicer starting with a JA-12? Why wouldn't a wilderness scout have a Wilk's 457? Just because? There has to be some logic if you are denying characters a weapon. I can see a north american character not starting with a Kittani weapon, but an atlantean could logically have one. "Just because" isn't enough of a reason to deny logical choices of weapons.

[Dr. Doom III]

They would be right powered if their powers worked against the supernatural instead of technological enemies.

[Killer Cyborg]

Cyberknights were pretty tough in the main book, expecially at higher levels. Their Psi-sword couldn't stack up with a high level Mind Melter's Psi-sword, but it was always cool weapon and the damage stacked well with the other melee weapons in all the books up through Atlantis.
Power creep crept along and eventually the psi-sword was outclassed by TW swords that do 1d6x10 and make you invulnerable.
But that still doesn't make the original Cyber-knight outdated.
As has been mentioned, Cyber-knights can use any weapon that a CS grunt or Headhunter can.
They automatically get Cyber-Armor, which is a nice back-up way of saving your life.
They get attribute bonuses, extra SDC, and combat bonuses.
They have an 80% chance of having psionics.
Also, check out their skill selection.
They are restricted in Mechanical and Medical skills, other than that, they can choose from ANY of the other skills in the book.
Their skill selection is second only to Rogue Scholar.
They are the best overall blend of all aspects of Rifts excepting only magic. They have skills, firepower, combat abilities, cybernetics, and psionics.
Anybody who scoffs at them isn't paying attention.

Still, I agree that they could use some buffing up to compensate for power creep. The Psi-sword doesn't stack up against the TW swords and absurdly powerful MD chainsaws in later books.
I actually like the way that they fleshed out the Psi-Swords in SoT, but the rest of it was inappropriate for the OCC.

First of all, the OCC is called "cyber-knights".
There is nothing Cyber about having psychic powers that help you dodge technology. If they wanted to pump up their power level they could have just given them more cybernetics at later levels in addition to their Cyber-armor.

Second, The anti-tech powers don't fit the class because Cyberknights exist to fight evil in all it's forms. Not just in the form of the CS or other technological powers. It says this clearly in the main book under the OCC description.

Third, they took the only Cyber aspect of the OCC, the Cyber-armor, and made it less cyber by making it become a living part of them.

So the "cyber"-knights are now a class that gets the bulk of their powers from psionics, lose their Cyber aspect at higher levels, and are geared to destroy technology.
Does this make sense to you?
Maybe if they changed the name to "Psyber-Knights".

A friend of mine pointed out that if they were going to go the whole "living armor" route, they should have extended this power instead of having the anti-tech psionics.
Picture this:

As the CKs increase in level, they can pick new cybernetic implants here and there. These implants all bond with the CK and become a living part of him (or her). Because the cyberware is alive and part of the CK, none of these implants actually interfere with their psionic powers.

I certainly would find that to be more appropriate.

The people who argue for the new anti-tech powers usually argue one of two views:
-That the Cyberknights needed to be more powerful.
Maybe so, but the powers should have been in line with the character class. mages needed to be more powerful, but they didn't start giving mages free cyberware as they level up because it wouldn't make any sense...

-That Cyberknights purpose is to battle the growing CS.
Except that this goes directly agains their stated purpose to fight all evil and corruption.
Main Book, p. 63
"Some believe that the cyber-knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition. Others say that they came to fight the hordes of supernatural beings that terrorize the land. The truth is that they are the champions of all who are oppressed, weak, and innocent, whether they be threatened by the Coalition or monsters from a rift."

Any gain in powers that the Cyberknights get, if they MUST have their power jacked up at all, should be able to be utilized against ALL enemies, not just foes with technology. It should be able to be used against xiticix, vampires, Nyxla and his followers, dinosaurs, witchlings, thornhead demons, faerie folk, neuron beasts, rhino-buffalo, and even the Lord of the Deep.
By giving the CKs powers that are limited to only one type of foe, they chop the purpose of the CK in half and change the class from a fighter against all evil to a specialist against one type.

[RockJock]

At the moment I"m not playing or GMing, but I have been spending sometime setting down some house rules. Nobody I play with is big on HR because it is so annoying when you switch groups. I degress. Anyway, my original point is posting is if you don't like the anti-tech CK change it. We expanded on the idea of different "paths" for CKs to take. In addition to the anti-tech Zen bonuses, a CK could instead go the anti-super natural, or anti-magic routes. These give them different combat abilities, but is a choice they must make at or before 3rd lvl. For example, an anti-SN CK would be able to add a few psi-powers like see the invisible, and abilites like demon wrestling. Anti-Magic CKs become more like Psi-Nullifiers/Nega Psychics. If I finish the lvl progression I'll post them.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They would be right powered if their powers worked against the supernatural instead of technological enemies.

where, doom, did it ever say they focused on fighting Demons instead of Humans?

[Dr. Doom III]

where, doom, did it ever say they focused on fighting Demons instead of Humans?

How many technological enemies did the founder Lord Coake fight on the Palladium world? Why would he develop abilities to fight people in robots and power armor? 90% of the things that people need protecting from on Rifts Earth are monsters and the supernatural. The Coalition were never an enemy. There may have been individual clashed but nothing close to the order opposing the CS.

[Athos]

Interesting point, so instead of having their powers be only vs. technology, you would expand them to include supernatural opponents as well. Or, would you just make them powerful against the supernatural?

I don't see why their powers couldn't be changed so that they could track any opponents, not just mechanical ones. Or why their attacks wouldn't be confusing to anyone, not just robots and power armored foes. It would take a little rewriting and re-reasoning, but it is doable.

[Nekira Sudacne]

where, doom, did it ever say they focused on fighting Demons instead of Humans?

How many technological enemies did the founder Lord Coake fight on the Palladium world? Why would he develop abilities to fight people in robots and power armor? 90% of the things that people need protecting from on Rifts Earth are monsters and the supernatural. The Coalition were never an enemy. There may have been individual clashed but nothing close to the order opposing the CS.

conjecture means nothing. you need proof of your statements. the coalition was always an enemy, as was ANY evildoer.

they are just especially good at fighting aginst tech. they are as good agisnt demons as they always were.

[Dr. Doom III]

conjecture means nothing. you need proof of your statements. the coalition was always an enemy, as was ANY evildoer.

they are just especially good at fighting aginst tech. they are as good agisnt demons as they always were.

There is no conjecture.
The CS was never an enemy. The CS didn't consider them one till SoT.

There is not reason why they should be especially good against fighting tech except the book was part of the SoT books and they were now fighting the CS. None at all.

[PigLickJF]

A friend of mine pointed out that if they were going to go the whole "living armor" route, they should have extended this power instead of having the anti-tech psionics.
Picture this:

As the CKs increase in level, they can pick new cybernetic implants here and there. These implants all bond with the CK and become a living part of him (or her). Because the cyberware is alive and part of the CK, none of these implants actually interfere with their psionic powers.

That's actually what I thought they should have done too, and if I were to revise the class, that's the route I'd go with. I don't know that I'd exactly say that the implants "become a living part of them," just that through intense training, etc, they are able to retain their psionics even with the cybernetics.

I do like the addition of the psi-shield, except that it's pretty worthless as written. I'd eiter allow them to parry ranged attacks with it, or I'd give the shield an AR (which would increase with increasing levels of WP shield) so that it would provide them with some protection from ranged attacks.

PigLick

[Vrykolas2k]

I think the reason why they have such bonuses against tech is because most foes are technological, not supernatural... at least that's how it is in every campaign I've been in. If MDC creatures were the "norm", there wouldn't be any SDC ones left. I do wish the psi-sword started at 2D6 MD at 1st level and then improved from there, but then again, as some others have said they get to use ANY weopon, including the TW ones... when they can find those weopons.
Battle Fury Blades, et cetera are almost as rare as Rune weopons in every campaign I've been in... and if you read their descriptions, they're almost as hard to make. You're not likely to run into a group with the things every day lol, and if you do your GM is on crack. Some things are rare, and meant to be thus; TW Flaming Swords might be fairly common, then again not everyone can use those, either. And not everyone has the option of starting out with any kind of magical weopon.

[Nekira Sudacne]

You should start off with 1D6 pistols, 2D6 rifles, and 6D6 canons. Main book weapons to the extreme!!!

Like a boom gun that does 3d6 x 10 MD? What is wrong with a juicer starting with a JA-12? Why wouldn't a wilderness scout have a Wilk's 457? Just because? There has to be some logic if you are denying characters a weapon. I can see a north american character not starting with a Kittani weapon, but an atlantean could logically have one. "Just because" isn't enough of a reason to deny logical choices of weapons.

Settle down. The Boom Gun was the most powerful weapon in the game, used with the most powerful power armour in the game, when the game was published. Even considering what is out today, the Boom Gun still outclasses nearly everything. Comparing a piece of artillery that requires ear protection and heavy PA to be anchored into the earth by 10ft pylons to a laser pistol is incredibly dense.

Why wouldn't a wilderness scout have one? It's new, it's expensive, and his starting equipment is likely something he scrounged, was passed down through the family, or had an operator jury-rig for him. I'm not sure why an Atlantean would have Kittani weaponry, since they're arch enemies, he'd have to have stolen it, meaning it would probably be damaged and difficult to operate or recharge.

I never said 'just because', I just didn't feel it necessary to include a reason, because most people understand that the items in the main book are supposed to be the most common. Even the CS weapons are common, the army has thrown a lot of them to the dog boys now that they have their new CWC toys (which are horrible).

depends. may weapons from various worldbooks are clearly labeled as widespread and extremly popular.

[Marcethus]

OK first off the CK's anti tech powers aren't psionic they are Zen Martial Arts abilities. Nowhere in sot4 does it say that the powers are psychic in nature. Now then on the Psi-sword it's true that CK's can pic up and use any weapon just as the Headhunter can but it's not their style the sword is supposed to be their primary weapon. So there for it atleast needed to be upped in power to be a little less weak. I have heard many arguements on what should be done with the psi-sword and my opinion on it is that it should start at 2d6 and increase 1d6/lvl that would make it a semi decent weapon that would be comparable and usable as a primary weapon.
As far as the arguement that their enemies are primarily SN or Tech it really depends on the game the GM runs but most enemies are going to be bandits that are trying to take over a town or hurt other innocents but there are going to be plenty of times when they kick the ass of a SN creature when it does the same as well.
To the argument that char's shouldn't start with anything but things out of the main book that depends on where the game is located for starters as well as where the char is from. A char for SA isn't likely to find things that are listed in the main book since those weapons are mainly for NA. and the same goes for a char from Russia and Japan. they all will start off with weapons from their respective homelands. And I think the Atlantean that was being refered to was those that live their not the True atlanteans that wander the megaverse.

[RockJock]

See, that is what I said Glitter.

[Killer Cyborg]

OK first off the CK's anti tech powers aren't psionic they are Zen Martial Arts abilities. Nowhere in sot4 does it say that the powers are psychic in nature.

Okay, now that makes sense.
Only not at all.
Nothing about Zen gives you funky anti-tech powers.
Funky powers, okay... but anti-tech powers?
Don't Buy It.

Now then on the Psi-sword it's true that CK's can pic up and use any weapon just as the Headhunter can but it's not their style the sword is supposed to be their primary weapon.

Main Book, p. 63
"A true knight will never use a psi-sword against a foe who is unarmed or not equipped with an equivilant weapon, or who is not a supernatural creature or dragon."

So I don't think that they whip it out every time they get into a fight.

Also on p. 63
"W.P. Ancient (Select two of choice)
W.P. Modern (Select two of choice)"

They seem to be trained just as well in modern weapons as ancient weapons. Why would this be, if they use their sword most of the time?
And, of course, they start with a modern pistol and rifle, with 3 clips for each.

Just because the Psi-sword is a unique ability of the Cyberknight (well, their version of the Psi-sword) doesn't mean that they want to use it all the time.
We know that Jedi aren't cyberknights, but Luke used his blaster a heck of a lot more than he used his light-saber.
He only whipped out the light-saber when he needed it.
I tend to think that cyberknights would be the same way.

So there for it atleast needed to be upped in power to be a little less weak. I have heard many arguements on what should be done with the psi-sword and my opinion on it is that it should start at 2d6 and increase 1d6/lvl that would make it a semi decent weapon that would be comparable and usable as a primary weapon.

I wouldn't mind the psi-sword being more powerful. How I deal with it in my campaign is I allow characters to use the CS psionic enhancing gauntlet in the same way an Amaki Psi-Blade can be used... and the gauntlet has been ripped off by the Black Market so it's somewhat decent availibility.

As far as the arguement that their enemies are primarily SN or Tech it really depends on the game the GM runs but most enemies are going to be bandits that are trying to take over a town or hurt other innocents but there are going to be plenty of times when they kick the ass of a SN creature when it does the same as well.

Agreed.
Which is why the main book states that their purpose is to fight oppression in all of it's forms.

[Marcethus]

OK first off the CK's anti tech powers aren't psionic they are Zen Martial Arts abilities. Nowhere in sot4 does it say that the powers are psychic in nature.

Okay, now that makes sense.
Only not at all.
Nothing about Zen gives you funky anti-tech powers.
Funky powers, okay... but anti-tech powers?
Don't Buy It.

ok you just said it yourself Zen=Funky powers doesn't matter if it's Funky anti-tech powers.

Now then on the Psi-sword it's true that CK's can pic up and use any weapon just as the Headhunter can but it's not their style the sword is supposed to be their primary weapon.

Main Book, p. 63
"A true knight will never use a psi-sword against a foe who is unarmed or not equipped with an equivilant weapon, or who is not a supernatural creature or dragon."

So I don't think that they whip it out every time they get into a fight.

Also on p. 63
"W.P. Ancient (Select two of choice)
W.P. Modern (Select two of choice)"

They seem to be trained just as well in modern weapons as ancient weapons. Why would this be, if they use their sword most of the time?
And, of course, they start with a modern pistol and rifle, with 3 clips for each.

Just because the Psi-sword is a unique ability of the Cyberknight (well, their version of the Psi-sword) doesn't mean that they want to use it all the time.
We know that Jedi aren't cyberknights, but Luke used his blaster a heck of a lot more than he used his light-saber.
He only whipped out the light-saber when he needed it.
I tend to think that cyberknights would be the same way.

I never said that they whip it out every time. But if you read the parts of SOT4 that cover various story incidents of the NPC it does seem that they tend to rely on it quite heavily.

[Killer Cyborg]

ok you just said it yourself Zen=Funky powers doesn't matter if it's Funky anti-tech powers.

Yes, it does.
What about Zen is anti-technology?
Nothing.

They might as well have chalked it up to feng shui or oragami.

I never said that they whip it out every time. But if you read the parts of SOT4 that cover various story incidents of the NPC it does seem that they tend to rely on it quite heavily.

In case you haven't noticed, I care a lot more about the original intent of the Cyberknight than what people did to the concept afterward.

Since my argument is that SoT was poorly done, inappropriate, and should probably never have been written, citing it to argue against me isn't going to be very effective.

In essense, claiming that Cyberknights are supposed to be a certain way because SoT says so is like claiming that the immortals in Highlander are supposed to be aliens because Highlander II says so.

[dataweaver]

ok you just said it yourself Zen=Funky powers doesn't matter if it's Funky anti-tech powers.

Yes, it does.
What about Zen is anti-technology?
Nothing.

By that line of reasoning, it's impossible for anyone to have anti-technology powers, short of anti-technology super powers (which sidestep the issue by not needing a reasonable explanation).

The real issue here isn't whether it's reasonable to claim that a group could develop anti-technology powers through some form of mystical training (such as Zen); the question is whether or not it's suitable to the Cyber-Knights to have such a thing. Think about it: if one of the SoT books had introduced a brand new Tolkeen-based OCC that had something equivalent to the Zen Combat Training from SoT4, would you be complaining? I doubt it. But because it's the Cyber-Knights, your reality suspenders got snapped.

In essence, claiming that Cyberknights are supposed to be a certain way because SoT says so is like claiming that the immortals in Highlander are supposed to be aliens because Highlander II says so.

I can see that. So how would you have handled the Cyber-Knights, assuming that some sort of "upgrade" to them was mandated (i.e., "leave them as is" is not an option)?

[Borast]

As to using their Psi-Sword...

They CAN "whip it out" at any time.

Unlike the melter, a CK can create it with a single thought...

[dataweaver]

Now then on the Psi-sword it's true that CK's can pic up and use any weapon just as the Headhunter can but it's not their style the sword is supposed to be their primary weapon.

We know that Jedi aren't cyberknights, but Luke used his blaster a heck of a lot more than he used his light-saber.
He only whipped out the light-saber when he needed it.
I tend to think that cyberknights would be the same way.

Only early on. As the movies progressed, Luke used his lightsaber more and more.

And while Cyber-Knights aren't Jedi (and vice versa), there is a commonality between them with regard to the use of an energy blade. More on that below.

So there for it atleast needed to be upped in power to be a little less weak. I have heard many arguements on what should be done with the psi-sword and my opinion on it is that it should start at 2d6 and increase 1d6/lvl that would make it a semi decent weapon that would be comparable and usable as a primary weapon.

I wouldn't mind the psi-sword being more powerful. How I deal with it in my campaign is I allow characters to use the CS psionic enhancing gauntlet in the same way an Amaki Psi-Blade can be used... and the gauntlet has been ripped off by the Black Market so it's somewhat decent availibility.

Instead of upping the power level of a psi-sword, what kind of an impact would there be if Cyber-Knights gained the ability to parry projectiles and energy blasts with their psi-sword, in a manner vaguely similar to what Psi-Warriors can do with their Psi-Shields? Setting aside the Jedi parallelism for the moment, this would be a much more subtle method of making cyber-knights more effective against technological foes, as these sorts of attacks are far more common from vehicles, robots, and power armor than they are from monsters.

If something like this were implemented, I'd seriously consider saying that burst fire negates the psi-sword parry in a manner similar to how a large volley of missiles negates the ability to dodge, for similar reasons: blocking one projectile is stretching the bounds of credulity as is; blocking a dozen at once is just too much to believe.

BTW, while I largely agree that SoT4 goofed overall, I think that there are some gems in there that are worth mining: the half-cost Psi-Shield for all Cyber-Knights, the improved Special Bonuses (to Initiative, to Pull Punch, to Disarm, and to Save vs. Horror Factor), and the general history of the Cyber-Knights (less those portions referring to the origins of "special abilities" that don't really suit - Cyber-Knight Zen Combat and Living Cyber-Armor in particular).

Now what would I do to make the Cyberknight more 'capable' against supernatural, well ALL foes, as they do for the most part fight alone, and like an Order of Knights seem to have a regimented training schedule, so they would not have any variants, like the Headhunters.

While I can see that argument, I would nevertheless have loved to have seen the inclusion of one variant (the Cyber-Ranger, with a Psi-Bow instead of a Psi-Sword).

Give 'em the Battle Magus (From the Federation of Magic Book) ability 2. That's it that's all. After all, they were taught Zen training by a Chiang-Ku 'Warrior Monk', and that ability sounds like the centering and meditative abilities that martial arts should give in a super fantasy setting.

Refresh my memory: what is the Battle Magus ability #2?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Refresh my memory: what is the Battle Magus ability #2?

One with the mind.

basically it gives a bunch of bonuses to possession and horror factor. also reduces the effectivnes of stuff that affects the senses and gives a bonus to strike.

[Killer Cyborg]

ok you just said it yourself Zen=Funky powers doesn't matter if it's Funky anti-tech powers.

Yes, it does.
What about Zen is anti-technology?
Nothing.

By that line of reasoning, it's impossible for anyone to have anti-technology powers, short of anti-technology super powers (which sidestep the issue by not needing a reasonable explanation).

Not really.
Magic and psionics both already have strong anti-technology powers, ranging from the array of Telemechanic powers to the tech-stopping spells from FoM.

The real issue here isn't whether it's reasonable to claim that a group could develop anti-technology powers through some form of mystical training (such as Zen); the question is whether or not it's suitable to the Cyber-Knights to have such a thing.

Agreed.

Think about it: if one of the SoT books had introduced a brand new Tolkeen-based OCC that had something equivalent to the Zen Combat Training from SoT4, would you be complaining? I doubt it. But because it's the Cyber-Knights, your reality suspenders got snapped.

Well, I still would have thought it was kind of lame, but it wouldn't annoy me nearly so much.
So you basically are correct here.

So how would you have handled the Cyber-Knights, assuming that some sort of "upgrade" to them was mandated (i.e., "leave them as is" is not an option)?

I would allow them to have cybernetics without incurring any penalties to their psionics.
And I would either increase the availability of the Amaki Psi-Blades in North America or I would allo the CS Psionic Gauntlet to be used like one and have it readily availible on the black market.
I also have little objection to the cyber-armor gaining MDC as the knight increases in level.

[Killer Cyborg]

Instead of upping the power level of a psi-sword, what kind of an impact would there be if Cyber-Knights gained the ability to parry projectiles and energy blasts with their psi-sword, in a manner vaguely similar to what Psi-Warriors can do with their Psi-Shields? Setting aside the Jedi parallelism for the moment, this would be a much more subtle method of making cyber-knights more effective against technological foes, as these sorts of attacks are far more common from vehicles, robots, and power armor than they are from monsters.

If something like this were implemented, I'd seriously consider saying that burst fire negates the psi-sword parry in a manner similar to how a large volley of missiles negates the ability to dodge, for similar reasons: blocking one projectile is stretching the bounds of credulity as is; blocking a dozen at once is just too much to believe.

Conversion Book 1, p. 10

"The Crazies, Juiver, Borg, Simvan Warrior, cyber-knight, dragon, and those operating power armor or bots (excluding the Glitter Boy) can attempt to parry a bullet or single energy blast if they have a suitable item/shield with which to parry. The Cyber-knight, Mind Melter, and Master Psionic who can create a psi-sword or psi-shield can also attempt to parry mega-damage energy attacks. Likewise, practicioners of magic who have a magic sword or magic shield can try to parry energy attacks."

BTW, while I largely agree that SoT4 goofed overall, I think that there are some gems in there that are worth mining: the half-cost Psi-Shield for all Cyber-Knights, the improved Special Bonuses (to Initiative, to Pull Punch, to Disarm, and to Save vs. Horror Factor), and the general history of the Cyber-Knights (less those portions referring to the origins of "special abilities" that don't really suit - Cyber-Knight Zen Combat and Living Cyber-Armor in particular).

works for me.

[Rimmer]

Just to put an idea out of left feild, how about removing all trace of "Zen Combat" altogether, an replacing it with something like "Intuitive combat", and please no rehashing of the last argument about psi sword usage while also using Intuitive combat.

would till give th cyber knight some bonuses while not being exclusivly VS tech, the only problem is now he is becoming very close to a Psi Warrior.

[Killer Cyborg]

They should put the "cyber" in "Cyber-Knight, not take it away.
They're not Zen-Knights, and they're not Psyber-Knights.
At least they shouldn't be, IMHO.

[PigLickJF]

They should put the "cyber" in "Cyber-Knight, not take it away.
They're not Zen-Knights, and they're not Psyber-Knights.
At least they shouldn't be, IMHO.

I agree. There enough psychic/zen warriors out there now, we don't need to make the cyber-knight into another. Especially when they are called CYBER-knights, and yet start with ony one piece of cybernetics and aren't written as if they really care to get more. "Not necessarily opposed to cybernetics" doesn't exactly sound like an attitude towards cybernetics one would find in an OCC with the word "cyber" right in the name.

PigLick

[dataweaver]

Yeah, but they're also "Cyber-Knights", not "Cyborg Knights". I don't think that encouraging more cybernetics is much better than the "Zen Combat" stuff. And neither that nor giving them better capabilities with high-tech gear really differentiates them from the Headhunters.

[PigLickJF]

Yeah, but they're also "Cyber-Knights", not "Cyborg Knights". I don't think that encouraging more cybernetics is much better than the "Zen Combat" stuff. And neither that nor giving them better capabilities with high-tech gear really differentiates them from the Headhunters.

If cyber doesn't refer to cybernetics, then what does it refer to? And allowing cyber-knights to have both cybernetics and psionics, along with special bonuses and a great skill selection doesn't set them apart from headhunters?

Looking back at the original Cyber-Knights, they could definitely benefit from some more bonuses to save vs pretty much everything. These guys are supposed to be the valorous defenders of the weak, facing off against evil forces, yet they don't get any bonuses to save vs magic, horror factor, or anything else.

I say give them a few more cybernetics to start with (with the option of getting more and not losing their psionics), give them their master psionic saves (10 or 12 to save), and a few bonuses to save vs magic and horror factor, possibly even increasing as they level. Keep their psi-shield and double psi-sword abilities, and they're looking a lot better while still remaining true to their roots.

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, but they're also "Cyber-Knights", not "Cyborg Knights".

Which is why I'm against them being partial or full conversion Borgs.
No reason not to give them more cybernetics though.

I don't think that encouraging more cybernetics is much better than the "Zen Combat" stuff.

It's certainly more "cyber"...

And neither that nor giving them better capabilities with high-tech gear really differentiates them from the Headhunters.

Headhunters:
a) Are more likely to use Robots and Power Armor.
b) Get more weapon proficiencies
c) Can get Bionics.

[Marcethus]

Kittenstomp I like your #2 part of your idea and like Takumi said consider it stole lol though I will most likely modify it to suit my won tastes.
Atlas, you have a very good point on the fact that if you do take the zen and make it applicable to more then just tech or magic and make it apply to both you will have ppl complain but then I usually just ignore ppl's complaints about this class or another being to powerful. I think that they complain because their favorite class what ever that maybe can't do some of the things that the class they are complaining about and they is jealous.

[dataweaver]

Upon reflection, I've shifted my position a bit. If a cyber-knight is able to incorporate his cyber-armor into being a "living part of his body", as SoT4 suggests, why not other cybernetics as well?

What I'm thinking: let cyber-knights integrate individual pieces of cybernetics (but probably not bionics*) into his body as he gains levels by slowly infusing them with his own PPE; his cyber-armor is the first thing integrated (at level 4), but additional cybernetics could be integrated at higher levels (say, one every other level after that). Cybernetics thus incorporated would heal themselves over time (you'd have to figure out some method for determining how long it would take), would have their capabilities further enhanced somehow, and wouldn't interfere with magic or psionics. Possibly introduce an alternative to incorporating cybernetics: if you don't have any further cybernetics to incorporate when you reach the neccessary level, you instead gain another die of damage with the psi-sword, or maybe more PPE/ISP, or an additional psionic power from the list; I don't know. Some sort of benefit to compensate for not being as cybernetically enhanced as you could have been.

It does seem to be a semi-reasonable extension of the "living cyber-armor" idea...

* Then again, I've a certain fascination with the idea of equipping a cyber-knight with the "bionic flight wings" that the Bionics Sourcebook mentions... That's probably not practical, though.

[sHaka]

[EDIT] silly question, sorry..

[Marcethus]

[EDIT] silly question, sorry..

What is a silly question Shaka?

Dataweaver you have an interesting Idea.

But one thing I seem to notice is that everybody seems to forget that in SOT4 They changed the cyber armor from a cybernetic to a strange cross between a TW mystic ritual combined with the meditative arts of the CK's zen Training that melds the bits of MDC metal to their body. Something about the ritual causes it after a time to become a living entity merged with the CK's body thus healing itself. The cyber armor of the CK is thus no longer a cybernetic as they introduced it in the Main book but how ever each GM want's to run it is their own to do as they see fit.

Me Personally I like all they did to the CK save for the lack of Damage on the psi sword. But that's just me

[Killer Cyborg]

in SOT4 They changed the cyber armor from a cybernetic to a strange cross between a TW mystic ritual combined with the meditative arts of the CK's zen Training that melds the bits of MDC metal to their body.