Aimed shots with burst mode?

[Athos]

If your weapon has a 3 round burst setting like a JA-12, can you make an aimed shot while in this mode? How about a called shot if it is set to a 3 round burst? For that matter, can you make a called shot in wild shot mode, ie. empty the clip into his head kind of thing?

[Grand Paladin]

Sorry to burst your bubble (all pun intended!), but unless it's a special weapon- like the Megaversal Legion I-beam weapons from SA 1, a burst setting cannot be made as an aimed shot.

[Dr. Doom III]

If your weapon has a 3 round burst setting like a JA-12, can you make an aimed shot while in this mode? How about a called shot if it is set to a 3 round burst? For that matter, can you make a called shot in wild shot mode, ie. empty the clip into his head kind of thing?

No.

[Athos]

So a rail gun can never make a called shot unless it is firing a single bullet?!?

That doesn't sound right...

[Grand Paladin]

So a rail gun can never make a called shot unless it is firing a single bullet?!?

That doesn't sound right...

Yup, 'fraid so dan. Sorry man.

[Dr. Doom III]

So a rail gun can never make a called shot unless it is firing a single bullet?!?

Actually there is nothing that I know of saying that you can't make a called shot with a burst.
I hear it a lot on here but I don't remember it from a book and it's not in the main book combat terms.
Oh and most, if not all rail guns can't fire a single shot.

[Nekira Sudacne]

actually, Sharpshooting lets you do an aimed burst.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Bursts can be called shots, according to the rules from Chaos Earth (which is cut and paste from the Rifts GMG I'm told)

[Svartalf]

I always ruled that burts could be called as well as single shots... on grounds that such weapons as railguns ought to be able to make called shot attacks. Now I see many people ruling that this is not correct. Is there any book rule supporting this?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I always ruled that burts could be aimed as well as single shots... on grounds that such weapons as railguns ought to be able to make aimed attacks. Now I see many people ruling that this is not correct. Is there any book rule supporting this?

the main book where it said that rail guns are capable only of burst fire.

then it also says that burst cannot be called shots. . .

[Killer Cyborg]

If your weapon has a 3 round burst setting like a JA-12, can you make an aimed shot while in this mode?

Uh, no...
Why would there be rules for "Aimed Shots" and "Burst Shots" if you could
fire aimed bursts...?

How about a called shot if it is set to a 3 round burst? For that matter, can you make a called shot in wild shot mode, ie. empty the clip into his head kind of thing?

You can make a called burst, even a full clip burst, but not when firing wild.

[Athos]

Let me summarize so far...

You can't aim a burst, regardless of the weapon, unless maybe you are a sharpshooter, in which case it is still not clear. Not sure why sharpshooting would matter though?

You can make a called shot on a burst, but not a wild shot, if the weapon has a burst mode built in to it. So you could call a shot to the head with your rail gun, but not if you were emptying a full clip from an SMG.

Is this pretty much agreed upon?

[Dr. Doom III]

Let me summarize so far...

You can't aim a burst, regardless of the weapon, unless maybe you are a sharpshooter, in which case it is still not clear. Not sure why sharpshooting would matter though?

You can make a called shot on a burst, but not a wild shot, if the weapon has a burst mode built in to it. So you could call a shot to the head with your rail gun, but not if you were emptying a full clip from an SMG.

Is this pretty much agreed upon?

Yep

[Dr. Doom III]

then it also says that burst cannot be called shots. . .

Where?

Show us your "Rules Lawyerness" and please quote us the rule and page number.

[Svartalf]

I always ruled that burts could be aimed as well as single shots... on grounds that such weapons as railguns ought to be able to make aimed attacks. Now I see many people ruling that this is not correct. Is there any book rule supporting this?

the main book where it said that rail guns are capable only of burst fire.

then it also says that burst cannot be called shots. . .

err... and just where is that in the book? it's neither in the modern weapon combat section nor in the general description of railguns p 225-6.

And in the rules about called shot, it's said nowhere it must be aimed *single* shot. On the other hand, it is expressly stated that it's a major tactic for disabling bots and PA, and given the general sturdiness of such things, trying to take out, even relatively small and weak parts of them with single shot is like trying to saw a log with a pocketknife.

[Dr. Doom III]

And in the rules about aimed shot, it's said nowhere it must be aimed *single* shot. On the other hand, it is expressly stated that it's a major tactic for disabling bots and PA, and given the general sturdiness of such things, trying to take out, even relatively small and weak parts of them with single shot is like trying to saw a log with a pocketknife.

The fact that there are bonuses for aimed fire and burst fire says that they are two different things.
There is an aimed shot and there is a burst and never the twain shall meet.

[Svartalf]

And in the rules about aimed shot, it's said nowhere it must be aimed *single* shot. On the other hand, it is expressly stated that it's a major tactic for disabling bots and PA, and given the general sturdiness of such things, trying to take out, even relatively small and weak parts of them with single shot is like trying to saw a log with a pocketknife.

The fact that there are bonuses for aimed fire and burst fire says that they are two different things.
There is an aimed shot and there is a burst and never the twain shall meet.

Yes, you're right ... I misspoke and re edited my posts accordingly. wherever I wrote "aimed" I actually meant "called"

[Borast]

So...since laser weapons can "auto-fire" ala machine gun rules, how would this work? Can you do an "aimed auto-fire" shot?

[Dr. Doom III]

So...since laser weapons can "auto-fire" ala machine gun rules, how would this work? Can you do an "aimed auto-fire" shot?

Even the pulse of a laser (with no kick) in considered a burst so no aimed pulses.

[Dr. Doom III]

Yes, you're right ... I misspoke and re edited my posts accordingly. wherever I wrote "aimed" I actually meant "called"

OK no problem then.
Called bursts are fine.

At least until Nekira quotes this rule she says exists.

[Svartalf]

The GMGB says a Burst can only target & dmg the main body just as a MiniMissile can only target & dmg the main body. They're very clear about it too (one of the few things the GMGB is clear about).

However the GMGB does say you can if you have a special skill called SharpShooting.

House rules aside, in Rifts RPG you can't fire a burst at someone's head. By all means, make up and use your own rules, but by the book, you can't get away with that using Rifts RPG standards. Same way you can't fire 2 assault rifles at the same time, there are other major limits to what a normal person can do when trying to make his weapon perform.

Do you mean the "called shot" section p 39? I do agree it does seem to assume an "aimed shot" kind of shooting, but it's nothing as clear as you say, and the mini missile analogy is not mentioned there... so I assume you refer to another passage.

[Killer Cyborg]

Let me summarize so far...

You can't aim a burst, regardless of the weapon, unless maybe you are a sharpshooter, in which case it is still not clear. Not sure why sharpshooting would matter though?

You can make a called shot on a burst, but not a wild shot, if the weapon has a burst mode built in to it. So you could call a shot to the head with your rail gun, but not if you were emptying a full clip from an SMG.

Is this pretty much agreed upon?

I agree with everything except the last part.
Technically, you could empty the clip from your SMG into somebody's head.

[Athos]

I think the aimed would be you not moving, while the burst is you moving. Far as I know it's a pain to aim and move at the same time.

I think you mean wild shot. A burst has to do with the number of rounds, not the motion of the shooter. A wild shot can be caused from either letting off a massive number of rounds or from moving while you shoot.

[Dr. Doom III]

I have never seen a single place where it says you can't do a called shot with a Burst, and considering I can hit a watermelon sized target at 150 yards with a full auto burst from a M-60 Machinegun, I really think you should be able to.

The missle statement about them only being able to strike the main body only apples to smart missles because they are self guided. I have spent a great deal of time pointing out the page number to my players who kept trying to get a +8 with a missile thinking that the +5 stacked with the aimed shot bonus.

All missiles are self-guiding. There is no aimed shot bonus.
Pg. 42 RMB #2 under Missile Notes.

[Borast]

So...since laser weapons can "auto-fire" ala machine gun rules, how would this work? Can you do an "aimed auto-fire" shot?

Even the pulse of a laser (with no kick) in considered a burst so no aimed pulses.

Actually, I was talking about the machinegun rules, not a "double" or "triple" pulse.

[PigLickJF]

Also, pulse weapons, by the rules, fire 'bursts' so they can't be aimed, but... If laser weaponary have NO recoil... Why can't I snipe with them? It's not like they are railguns, which theoretically could ALSO have no recoil if placed on a gyro stabilized platform like say... A power armour?

But then, what do I know?

I could be mistaken here, it's been awhile since I looked at the actual rules, but I don't think pulses count as bursts. That's precisely why they're given a separate name. They fire multiple shots, but are treated as single shots mechanics-wise.

PigLick

[Ice Dragon]

Why should a Pulse Laser Weapon which has asetting for single and "pulse" can not be used for aimed shot will on pulse setting.

I allow the pulse/burst setting also for aimed shots.

Keeping the finger on the trigger will empty the clip, but this is a wild shot.

[Killer Cyborg]

Pulses are bursts, just a special kind.
What makes them different from normal bursts is simply that a pulse does more damage than a burst because all three shots hit the target, unlike a normal burst in which the majority of the shots miss.

[Svartalf]

I have never seen a single place where it says you can't do a called shot with a Burst, and considering I can hit a watermelon sized target at 150 yards with a full auto burst from a M-60 Machinegun, I really think you should be able to.

The missle statement about them only being able to strike the main body only apples to smart missles because they are self guided. I have spent a great deal of time pointing out the page number to my players who kept trying to get a +8 with a missile thinking that the +5 stacked with the aimed shot bonus.

All missiles are self-guiding. There is no aimed shot bonus.
Pg. 42 RMB #2 under Missile Notes.

Actually... not quite...
Originally, mini missiles were not supposed to be self guided (it is in my old RMB, might even be in the newer printings still) as such, when you used a bazooka type launcher, you used your own WP bonuses, and could make a called shot... Of course that went to the dogs when they decided that mini missiles too were self guiding (I'd like to remember when that was, I think it was in Mercs I noticed that some launching systems definitely needed self guiders to be able to shoot at anything)

[Svartalf]

Uh, Mini-missiles ARE mot guided weapons, so you CAN call shot them. Only short range on up have any guidance packages.

This is no longer the case. Check a vast number of vehicular launchers in particular, They are in too awkward/impossible to aim accurately positions to be useful if loading anything but self guiders

And I find it amusing that a targetting computer that can target say... 48 items, only targets ONE part of it instead of saying, well I want to take out the engines on that battle cruiser so I'll call a shot there. Pretty useless computer, ne?

I don't follow you there... that comp locks on the whole target and helps aim the weaponry at it... it would need a scrumptious database about all possible targets (and some godlike sensor systems to be able to identify them) to be any use in targeting specific parts of a given target

[Borast]

Actually, almost all mini-missiles are purely ballistic weapons. (WP: Heavy)

The only ones I can think of right now (just woke up) are the Naruni K-Hex guided mini missile, which in addition to using a super explosive, also has a super sophisticated and micro-miniaturised guidance (RCS? mobile fins? C-Grav?) system. As for the advanced CS weapons in CWC, I'm 90% sure they have no guided minis.

As for guided missiles and "Called Shots" with "smart" missiles, it goes for largest part of mass, which for bots' is the main body. For space ships, they are more "indescriminate" weapons, since they do not generally actually impact the ship, blowing up in proximity.

Think about it like a torpedo, it actively seeks the closest part of the target, so that the only way it will strike amidships is if it comes in from the side, and even then, they generally do not actually impact the sub they are seeking.

I like the way the guidance systems in Car Wars were handled, for example, the "pop-up" "tank killer" munitions (flies in on a level with the target, then "up and overs" to strike the thinly armourd top of the tank) were given a -3 (I believe) to strike (based on a 7 or 8 base to hit on two die 6's, with modifiers for angle of attack, and closing speeds, so that to hit with one of these missiles assuming a gunnery skill of 3 (unusual, and very high), and a high-res targeting computer, with a target moving at 50mph straight at you or away from you, you had to roll on the order of a 10 or better (8 or better for a wire guided, but that made YOU vulnerable, since you're stationary until AFTER the missile hits). But then, except at literal point blank range, unguided rockets were a base 9 to hit (ie: fat chance), with most other weapons being a 6 or 7 to hit (about base 50% hit).

[Dr. Doom III]

Actually, I was talking about the machinegun rules, not a "double" or "triple" pulse.

Machinegun rules are only used for SDC machineguns.

[Svartalf]

Actually, almost all mini-missiles are purely ballistic weapons. (WP: Heavy)

The only ones I can think of right now (just woke up) are the Naruni K-Hex guided mini missile, which in addition to using a super explosive, also has a super sophisticated and micro-miniaturised guidance (RCS? mobile fins? C-Grav?) system. As for the advanced CS weapons in CWC, I'm 90% sure they have no guided minis.

To be precise, the K Hex smart missiles were the first overt and official mention of self guided mini missiles in the literature. But self guided mini missiles were a Rifts reality long before that... It was even mentioned somewhere in the old FAQ, I think, I'd post the link if I could just find it again.

[Dr. Doom III]

Uh, Mini-missiles ARE mot guided weapons, so you CAN call shot them. Only short range on up have any guidance packages.

Not anymore.
They have been retroactively changed to be the same as any other missile. The explanation being the standard "that was a mistake this is how it always was supposed to be."

[sHaka]

This is sorta on topic...

I got some issues with certain weapons that list 'Standard' as their ROF. For instance, the C-27 plasma cannon. 6D6 per shot, standard ROF, so can the operator fire a burst? Could you empty the clip in one burst, using two actions and inflict 6D6 X 10 MD?

What about the laser pistols, like the C-18 - they have a 'standard' ROF, can they burst fire? I appreciate that pulse lasers and rail guns are a seperate issue (their firing rules are usually listed in the description). But the Fire-breather assault laser rifle for example - 3D6 per shot. That can burst fire yeah? Otherwise, it's less powerful than the old C-12 (Which i'm also assuming can burst fire as per the burst rules in the RMB). I tend to rule that particle beams can't burst.

I tend to use my (GMs) discretion here, but I wonder what your ideas are on the matter?

[Dr. Doom III]

This is sorta on topic...

I got some issues with certain weapons that list 'Standard' as their ROF. For instance, the C-27 plasma cannon. 6D6 per shot, standard ROF, so can the operator fire a burst? Could you empty the clip in one burst, using two actions and inflict 6D6 X 10 MD?

What about the laser pistols, like the C-18 - they have a 'standard' ROF, can they burst fire? I appreciate that pulse lasers and rail guns are a seperate issue (their firing rules are usually listed in the description). But the Fire-breather assault laser rifle for example - 3D6 per shot. That can burst fire yeah? Otherwise, it's less powerful than the old C-12 (Which i'm also assuming can burst fire as per the burst rules in the RMB). I tend to rule that particle beams can't burst.

I tend to use my (GMs) discretion here, but I wonder what your ideas are on the matter?

Standard = single shots.
Standard (aimed, burst, wild) equals ability to burst fire.

Note on the C-12.
The 4D6 is the 5 shot short burst setting listed in the description not an increased MD setting.

Particle Beams and Plasma Ejectors cannot burst.

[sHaka]

Standard = single shots.
Standard (aimed, burst, wild) equals ability to burst fire.

Note on the C-12.
The 4D6 is the 5 shot short burst setting listed in the description not an increased MD setting.

Particle Beams and Plasma Ejectors cannot burst.

Mate - that's awesome, cheers for clearing that one up.

[Svartalf]

Uh, Mini-missiles ARE mot guided weapons, so you CAN call shot them. Only short range on up have any guidance packages.

Not anymore.
They have been retroactively changed to be the same as any other missile. The explanation being the standard "that was a mistake this is how it always was supposed to be."

Interesting... in the old days, when I asked about that, I was told that tech had advanced enough for the guidance systems to be miniaturized to mini scale... they said that any advanced manufacturer (NG, CS, Triax etc...) was able to manufacture those.

[Killer Cyborg]

Standard = single shots.
Standard (aimed, burst, wild) equals ability to burst fire.

Particle Beams and Plasma Ejectors cannot burst.

No, no, no!
C'mon man... I've only posted this a zillion times!

Rifts Conversion Book 1 (unrevised), p. 7

"Most high-technology weapons, automatic weapons, and the energy weapons of the future, can fire multiple rounds or bursts."

p. 8

"An automatic weapon, whether it fires bullets or energy blasts, is a weapon that continues to fire as long as the trigger is held in the firing position. The nature of the automatic, rapid-fire weapon is that an entire ammunition magazine/clip with 20 rounds can be fired in a matter of 3-5 seconds. This is especially true of pistols, rifles, and sub-machinegun style weapons."

"A semi-automatic weapon will fire a bullet or energy blast every time the trigger is depressed/squeezed and released and depressed again. Thus it can fire as quickly as the person can pull the trigger. Not quite as fast as an automatic weapon, but the shooter can usually squeeze off an entire 20 round clip in 6-8 seconds."

(Meaning that any semi-automatic weapon can empty its clip in about a half of a melee.)

p. 9

"Unless otherwise noted, most energy weapons are considered to be automatic weapons. Only weapons that state a specific number of shots per melee are not automatic."

p. 11
The sample combat shows a Coalition Grunt firing a long burst from his C-18 laser pistol at a Cyber-Knight.

The ROF of the C-18 is (Suprise!) "Standard".

All of the above citations were written by KS himself, in a lengthy attempt to explain how energy weapons work.

Also note the GMG, p. 40
under "Understanding High Tech Weapons"

"But what about the old weapons that have a damage for single blasts but not a burst, but list Attacks Per Melee: Standard, or Aimed, Burst, or Wild shot. It is fair to assume that the weapon can fire a short, two pulse burst that does double the damage of a single shot."

This again shows that "Standard" and "Aimed, Burst, Wild" both mean the same thing; that the weapon is capable of bursts.
Otherwise, why would KS treat single shot weapons and automatic weapons the same way?
He wouldn't.

[Killer Cyborg]

This is sorta on topic...

I got some issues with certain weapons that list 'Standard' as their ROF. For instance, the C-27 plasma cannon. 6D6 per shot, standard ROF, so can the operator fire a burst? Could you empty the clip in one burst, using two actions and inflict 6D6 X 10 MD?

Going straight by the main book and other early books, then technically YES.
Most people don't play that way, though.

ROF standard is the same as Aimed, Burst, Wild, meaning that it can use the burst/spray rules from the main book.
(oh, they nerfed the damage though... a full-clip burst now does x7, not x10).

On the other hand, the C-27 has been updated to have a ROF of "Equal to the number of attacks of the user; each blast counts as one attack".
Which means that now you can't fire a burst from a C-27.
(Unless you subscribe to Deadboy's interpretation on the meaning of that particular ROF)

My theory is this:
In the main book, ROF: Standard can mean different things.
With most energy weapons, it means the same as "Aimed, Burst, Wild".
With Pulse weapons, it means "Each single shot or preset pulse counts as 1 attack"
With Heavy Energy Weapons, it means "each single shot counts as 1 attack".

In later books, they tried to clear this up by updating the rates of fire.

What about the laser pistols, like the C-18 - they have a 'standard' ROF, can they burst fire?

Yes.
KS himself wrote a sample combat in Conversion Book 1 (unrevised) that illustrates a C-18 doing exactly that.

I appreciate that pulse lasers and rail guns are a seperate issue (their firing rules are usually listed in the description). But the Fire-breather assault laser rifle for example - 3D6 per shot. That can burst fire yeah?

I posted a thread on this weapon a while back.
In the main book, it had ROF: Standard. Which meant that it could fire bursts.
As of CWC, it has ROF: Equal to the number of HTH attacks, so it can no longer fire bursts.
Who knows why...

Otherwise, it's less powerful than the old C-12 (Which i'm also assuming can burst fire as per the burst rules in the RMB).

I have an entire thread on "Fixing the C-12".
It is the most confusing, poorly written weapon in the entire game of Rifts.
Go back and find that thread and read it. It's very educational.
The short version is this:
Nobody knows how that gun is supposed to work.. or if they do know, they can't prove it conclusively.

I tend to rule that particle beams can't burst.

I agree.
This goes in with my theory that in early books, ROF Standard for Heavy Energy Weapons was "Single Shot Only".

I tend to use my (GMs) discretion here, but I wonder what your ideas are on the matter?[/quote]

[Killer Cyborg]

Back on topic:

Rifts Conversion Book 1 (unrevised):
p. 8

"The aimed shot is always a careful and deliberate act of targeting and the shooting of one round/bullet or energy blast."

p. 9

"A pulse blast is always a burst shot. Also note that the level of accuracy when shooting a burst is greatly reduced; +1 to strike if the burst is a controlled/aimed burst, NO bonus if shooting wild."

[Killer Cyborg]

I've been sigged! Woo!

It may not last long, as I change my taglines regularly, but you made me laugh.
I think that wit and humor should be recognized.

[Dr. Doom III]

No, no, no!
C'mon man... I've only posted this a zillion times!

It's still as wrong now as it was then.

[Svartalf]

No, no, no!
C'mon man... I've only posted this a zillion times!

It's still as wrong now as it was then.

What's wrong is KS putting out a system that works very well (if munchkinely ovekilling so) ... and then has a change of heart for reasons unknown, and tries to shove down a new version of the rules, one that does not make sense, nor work any too well, down our throats.

[Killer Cyborg]

Brokenchild, I know this is slightly off topic but why would you ever see Brodkil coming, "Turn Invisible" at will ain't it grand.

Nah, Brodkil usually have bionics which prevents their invisibility power.
But losing invisibility is a small price to pay to cut off one of your limbs and replace it with a weaker and overall inferior one...
Apparently Brodkil aren't that bright.

[Vrykolas2k]

So a rail gun can never make a called shot unless it is firing a single bullet?!?

Actually there is nothing that I know of saying that you can't make a called shot with a burst.
I hear it a lot on here but I don't remember it from a book and it's not in the main book combat terms.
Oh and most, if not all rail guns can't fire a single shot.

Well, they can or they wouldn't have the "single round does 1D {whatever}"; but I agree, there's nothing saying you can't do a called shot burst anywhere tat I've seen, and you can do it IRL, so... I'll allow it. Now let's get it on.

[Dr. Doom III]

Well, they can or they wouldn't have the "single round does 1D {whatever}"; but I agree, there's nothing saying you can't do a called shot burst anywhere tat I've seen, and you can do it IRL, so... I'll allow it. Now let's get it on.

Actually it says in the Main Book that that is just there for comparison purposes.

[Dead Boy]

If your weapon has a 3 round burst setting like a JA-12, can you make an aimed shot while in this mode? How about a called shot if it is set to a 3 round burst? For that matter, can you make a called shot in wild shot mode, ie. empty the clip into his head kind of thing?

Being about 150 post late in joining this one, (been busy this week), I think I'll just jump right on in and answer the original post and appolgize if I step on anyone's toes for already saying this, (which I'd wager somone has)

The answer to this one is simple and fairly well establish in the canon rules, (which is why I'm surprised this topic has gone on so long --- must be a tangent in here somewhere). A person may not make an Aimed Shot with a weapon set to fire a burst of a pulse. However, for reasons that don't entierly make sense, you can make a Called Shot with a pulse or a burst.

I'd cite a book and page number, but I have STILL yet to get my books back.