Anatole Leonard out of his Mind?

[drewkitty ~..~]

In the RT: Malcontent Uprisings you learn why Lenord is such a xenophobe. It turns out that Max and Miria were not the only human/Zent cross parents. Is just lenordd's partner was on the side of the malcontents and fought aginest him. Their son was killed in the battle that occured @ the Scavenger village that the mother and son were living at. the greif of loosing his son before he knew him turned to anger. Thus setting the stage for the Fight with the Masters.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I am a Leonard Fan.

IMO, He's a Radbid Defender of Humanity. in war you have 2 choices, Fight or Let the Enemy win. Leonard Chose the First one. Time and Time again He Sends his forces aginast a Clearly Superior Force, they take wounda and retreat. But by the Endof the story arc, the Southren cross Emerges Victorious over the invaders. Thanks to many factors Sure, but mostly because Leonard did not Persue Peace with an obviously Hostile Force.

I'm not gonna Drurge up the Assigment thing, but one thing Sending peopel who Disagree with your Stratgy is a decent tactic, they'll Fight harder to win just because they dont wanan be there.

now the GMP isn't doing anyhting wrong in the show, Earth is under Martial Law. They have to keep a Tight ring on things, if the USofA gets invaded by a Land force, expect a Martial law crack down too. as for the ASC being "undisciplined greenhorns", Eh Dana is a bit of a Nut Job, but Consistintly get Praises for her level headeness and superior feild tatics, and her squad is given better Assignemnts.

Leonard who apparently cannot except that the troops of the Robotech Masters are just too much for his ASC and tosses wave after wave after wave into the meatgrinder.

the Troops of Breetias Fleet were too much for the SDF-1 & Crew, even though they were playing nice due to orders, The SDF-1 Would have Eventually be Captured, but Luck for them there Enemy become and Ally before they are blowed up. Put the ASC ins a Simmiler Situation, The Masters Aren't Allowed to use Full force, and were only interested in one ship, it Easy to defend your Planet when you can Send the Problem off world. The Masters Came to Get something on Earth... and Destroy anything in there way. Leonard Did the best he Could with the Situation Provided. An Unknown enemy, attacks with out warning (they did attack first, the master Wiped out several Satalites and SPace stations, and 1 of the moon bases, before the ASC fired the Missle barrage) And Has an Unknown Goal. What would you do? Be Emmerson and want to Make peace with a Agressive Alien force... or be Leonard and Defend the Innoncet Civillian that would get Hurt if these guys make land fall. The Masters Used a Reflex Cannon to Destroy 2 Cities... not exactly peopel you want Getting to the Protoculture Matrix and Full power.

[taalismn]

Leonard's rise to power as documented in various sources indicates that he is a conservative and aggressive commander in that he tends to reject more radical ideas that seem to him too dangerous and risky(some of the comics suggest that he was a Destroid advocate biased against the more fragile and technologically complex veritechs).....All very fine and good and perfectly understandable in their time....
In the post-Rain of Death era, smarting from his injuries and betrayl by his Zentraedi lover(who chose her own people over humanity in the wake of mounting anti-zentraedi backlash), Leonard's conservative response is to oppose what he perceives as the heavy-handed and ineffectually liberal policies of the RDF towards the resident(and still suspect) Zentreadi-in-residence, by tapping into the buried nationalism and growing anti-alien bias of the survivors.....IN this, he actually manages to bring together many of the radical human splinter groups under one recognizable and borderline respectable umbrella organization, rather than have themremain as dangerous rogues(so, instead of committing numerous small terrorist actions and lynchings, they now carry out marginally less atrocious 'police actions')....Being of the pre-Visitor 'old school', he manages also to garner the support of the old network of powerbrokers who managed the UEG prior to the Rain, survived, and are now eager to shift (perceived)blame for the whole Macross debacle by blaming it on the RDF(the heirs apparent to the legacy of the UEG), while quietly forming a new and 'improved' organization in the form of the UWG. Finally, enough genuine and honest military organizations throw their support behind Leonard because he gets things done, while the RDF apparently flounders between fighting the Zentraedi, assimilating the Zentraedi, and growing a new space fleet.

BY the time events of Southern Cross roll around, Leonard is enscrounged as Supreme Commander.....declining Zentraedi rogue troubles, the re-organization of Western society along paramilitary lines, and the return of a global media with politically astute spin-doctors has given Leonard a cult of personality above his abilities, which are fading as he ages and his conservatism becomes more lead. Leonard also becomes something of a sacred monster at the helm of the ASC...having put so many of the UWG's lawmakers into power, Leonard knows the dirty secrets of most of them, so they are reluctant to depose him in favor of a 'softer' officer with less support from the hard core officer cadres of the original ASC organization(now enscrounged as respectable citizens). HOwever, though, by the same token, Leonard is less in charge than he'd like to think...feeling under pressure by the politicos to produce results...or they WILL overcome their reluctance and replace him...and having known some of these guys when they were little and vicious fish, he knows what they can do outside of legal means....
The whole set up is something akin to Civil War-era General George McClellen(albeit, a far more aggressive McClellan with the strategic thinking of a General Hague, sitting on an organization akin to a re-organized Irish Army with vestiges of the old Sim Fein hanging around.
Leonard may be out of his element fighting a space war, and still mentally stuck using groundside tactics against a more mobile foe, and is further blinded by his own aggressive conservative nature....a Patton-isc ego along with a barely acknowledged desperate fear as he realizes just what the Masters can do to him and his organization. THus, he keeps slugging away using the tactics and strategies he knows has worked in the past, without daring to see if something more innovative (and risky), like openning false negotiations while trying to buy more time and/or atomizing the Macross burial site(though, if you buy into Zand's domination of Leonard, this option may have been denied him)..... BY the same token, his opportunistic(some might say vindicative) streak allows him to justify re-shuffling the organizational table to burn off his unreliable elements in frontal attacks while preserving his trusted core support officers...As has been noted by others on this forum, handing out suicidal assignments to least favorite officers is standard operation procedure for most militaries.

Is Leonard a hero? An unlucky political hack who just happened to be in the hot seat at the wrong time? A bullet-headed bigot who lost the Second Robotech War through psychopathic tendancies, or a gray-in-the-saddle bumbler and prima donna too caught up in his own political agendas to be an effective general? Possibly all of the above, depending on perspective....

[Svartalf]

It may be that the French dubbing of the anime was faulty... but from what I gathered

Leonard was not only supreme commander, he also had the title of "governor"... from the version I had, it looks like his military role was only an aspect of his overall supreme power. All in all, I thought he was some kind of military dictator. and that he used and abused his power without having to mind about accounting for it to anyone.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Talismann, Where did you get These Ideas From? not the Show. Leonard never mentions a Lover... or his Destroid pilot days.. or anyhting you posted. the Novels & Comics (and most fo the RPG)are now Non-Canon Sources. Going From the Show Alone, He's basically the guy in Charge of Defendin the Earth... not a Villan, not a bad guy, Just a Person Trying to stop a Supream foe form Killin Innocnet people, Mind you he did a Better Job then the RDF.... i didnt see 70% of the Wolrds Poppulation die in the ASC Era.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Leonards Bio off RT.com

Eli Leonard
Supreme Commander of United Earth Defense Forces

Birth Date: 1973

Hair: None

Bio:
The Supreme Commander of all United Earth Forces. Leonard is arrogant and egotistical and intractable once he has made his decision. His aggressive approach to the war against the Robotech Masters is in stark contrast to General Emerson's careful pragmatism and thoughtfulness. This attitude results in grave consequences for Earth during the Second Robotech War.

Compared to

Rolf Emerson
Chief of Staff for the Armies of the Southern Cross

Birthdate: 1983

bio:
General Emerson is a charismatic leader who prefers to think through all options before taking action and only resorts to force as a last resort. However, once committed he is a capable strategist and able leader. He is troubled by the conflict he sees in his God-son, Bowie, but can do little to assist from his position in the military. He sacrifices himself saving Bowie from a shot to his back from clone security forces.

Clearly Polar Opposites, But Emersons Approach is not exactly a good one either... when someone is in your house, killing your Family.. do you carefully think through how to talk him out of killing them all.. and relate to him, or do you go Grab your (Gun/baseball bat/Claymore) and Defend you Family?

From the Bio on Leonard, I seriously Doubt he Founded the Southren Cross, hes the Supreme Commander of United Earth Defense Forces, this position is notsomething you give to a person who Founded a "Splint" Millitray group. The ASC is What became of the RDF, not another Millitary Group Founded by a Semi-Facist who recriuted Racist and hatmongers, backed by Big money poloticians. (And Defianyl not the Millitary Dana Sterling, a halfbreed would join if it were so)

With his Dieing breath Emerson Admits Peace with the Masters would have never happened, and they would have destroyed the Earth, in the End he knows Leonard is Right.

[Colonel Wolfe]

.... i didnt see 70% of the Wolrds Poppulation die in the ASC Era.

In fact, we pretty much didn't see anything beyond Monument City, and no sign of cities beyond that.... hummm.... almost like it was the only city on the planet.... strange....

If Leonard had had Emerson's head for battle tactics or if Emerson had had Leonard's willingness to kick butt, the series would have definately been different.

On Glory there was only a Few Cities, and "Monument City" was the largest of the Colonies Citieies.In Robotech 2 other Cities are Mentioned and Destroyed in the Serise (Newton and another). Ther have to be other Cities, since Scott Visits about 5 or 6 in Invid invasion, and they are Full of people.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Yes, I know. I was attempting to make you chuckle. I have failed.

I will now commit seppuku.

I knew you were Joking. And its funny b/c of the Animation, it looks like the City is in a Rocky Wasteland and no other peopel exist on the planet. But People in the past (on diffrent boards) have used the Animation to Logic out Humanity Did better under invid rule, Rebuilding Cities and such, then they have done for 20+ years after the R.o.Death.

need someone to Cut off your head?

Here's a Quote fomr RT.com, Emmerson's ideas for Peace would have work'd real well:

As the battle escalates, the Robotech Masters cast their infirm and aged citizens adrift in space. They drug their clone soldiers with anti-pain serum to enable them to fight longer. Merciless maneuvers give them the advantage. They issue an ultimatum to Supreme Commander Leonard: "Evacuate the planet within thirty-eight hours or we will be forced to destroy your homeworld."

[Colonel Wolfe]

Supreme Commander Leonard does the best job he can, with the limited resources left to him. Oh wait, that's Col. Edwards line. Considering the situation, I can find no fault in his plans, reasoning, or motivation.

hmmm.... Colonle Edwards is Closer to Mumra (from Thunder cats) General Leonard. Edwards Regualry Gloats on about how he's gonna ruin the hunters and all his Manical plans for Revenge.... If olny Edwards has a Cute puppy Like Marmut to Keep him Company, his plans might have bore more Fruit.... and the Story arc he was in not be Erased.

Edwards is Clearly off his Rocker, in both versions of the Sentinels he is Gloating to his Aide about all his Evilness.... and thats Stupid Faceplate....

[taalismn]

Talismann, Where did you get These Ideas From? not the Show. Leonard never mentions a Lover... or his Destroid pilot days.. or anyhting you posted. the Novels & Comics (and most fo the RPG)are now Non-Canon Sources. Going From the Show Alone, He's basically the guy in Charge of Defendin the Earth... not a Villan, not a bad guy, Just a Person Trying to stop a Supream foe form Killin Innocnet people, Mind you he did a Better Job then the RDF.... i didnt see 70% of the Wolrds Poppulation die in the ASC Era.

...And what sources then remain(and what with the discussions of Shadowforce, going on, even that canon may be in flux) leave us with very little to go on to explain Leonard in anything other than two-dimensional terms....Sure, he's in charge, and he's defending Earth, but he's a blunt and arrogant bigot.
As for doing a better job than the RDF...well, he had a rather more advanced military machine at his disposal, against a foe who was far smaller numerically than the Zentraedi, and more pre-disposed towards surgical strikes(at least initially) than the Zentraedi, who tended to use a bombard-from-orbit-then-send-the-mecha-in-to-churn-the-remains. While the ASC may have lacked anything comparable to the SDF-1, they did possess more carrier and missile platforms in space, and better dispersement(courtesy of the lunar bases), which meant that the smaller numbers of Master warships simply couldn't envelope the Terran forces and blow them away in battles of attrition, while still maintaining pressure on the Earth(the Masters tended to let the ASC come to them, or strike them when they were in transit, rather than nuke ALUCE).
The weakening of the Masters' empire and the diminishment of their capabilities brought them down a peg already when they encountered the ASC and Leonard, but by the same token, the ASC was equipped to tackle smaller flotillas of Zentraedi, already familiar to them...and the Zentraedi capital ships didn't possess forcefield defense barriers(as one example of the differences).
Leonard's success against them could be better explained as belonging to the field commanders who had to adapt to the new circumstances, and in a hurry, rather than any great strategic insight or change in doctrine on Leonard's part. Emerson's desire to negotiate, and his final resort to suicidal tactics(ramming his flagship into an enemy mothership on at least two occasions) may have not been so much better, so ultimately, the ASC's successes should be laid at the feet of squad leaders like Marie CRystal and her colleagues, especially after older, more senior officers had been picked off in combat....

[taalismn]

If olny Edwards has a Cute puppy Like Marmut to Keep him Company, his plans might have bore more Fruit....

That would be Benson, as I recall. He's such a lackey...

The real question is not why Leonard managed to hang onto power, but how an obvious nutjob like Edwards continued to walk around and rise to a position of power in the REF.....It may have been dramatic license on the part of animators, cartoonists, and novelists, but Edwards just overplayed it......Come on, hadn't he ever read the 'Evil Overlord List' or taken a course on Anger Management? If he'd simply sucked up to the Hunters more often rather than rant and growl and sulk like he did, he could have schmoozed his way into the High Command a lot more easily.....


Benson's real job was most likely to wipe Edward's mouth before anyone else noted his foaming and called for the straightjacket squad....'Military Aide to the General' sounds much more important than 'Towel Boy to Mr. Rabid."

[Colonel Wolfe]

Characters dont need to be 3d, nor Black and White, Leonard is Simply the guy in charge, who has to Protect the Earth at any reasonable Cost:

what you do know fomr the Show, RT.com and Leonards Bio:

His birth in 1973 Makes him a Possible Vetran of both the WW3 and the Anti-U war. He's Supream Commander in Charge of Earth Defense, not a Title you Give to a nut ball. He has to answer to a Chancellor/Prime minister. and a Guy unwilling to let the Earth be overran by an enemy with hostile intent.

His Only Bigotted Trait is his Unwillingnes to Negoiate with an Agressive Foe, who would only Demand Surrender or Destruction.

As for the Weakned Masters, in Ep. 59, The Invid connection, the Master Tell Leonard and the Earth forces: "Evacuate the planet within thirty-eight hours or we will be forced to destroy your homeworld."

In a Diffrent Situation, Had the Master Came in to Orbit, sent word to the UEF asking for a Dialog, things would have went completly Diffrent. but they came in to the System, did not care for the "Inferior Micronians" and began Blowing up Earth Gov property...

Yes, the Feild Commanders in any Army are Accountable for the Sucesses, but they would have not been there if not for Leonard ordering the assaults. If Emmerson was in Charge, The Masters would have several Million new Bioroid Pilots.

oh, a note: The Missiles Fired Against the Master Mother ship in oe of the Early Episodes has nearly a 600M Explosion on it.... Those Missiles were Designed to Cripple even the LArgest Zent Ship. and Yes, the Zents had no sheilds,No Anti-Missile systems and Less all around armor. more reasons the Master were tougher to tackle than their Giant Lackys.

[Svartalf]

As for Nutjobs being unable to get to high office...

Well, such names as Hitler, Himmler and Göring come to mind... and maybe Josiph Vissarionovitch Jugachvili too... and that's Just a couple IRL instances off the top.

Concerning TR Edwards, well, the Military tends to look at results beofre checking the details of how they were gotten... the most celebrated French hero of WWI was General Petain, who was made a Marshal, and that guy was a pure butcher, not to mention that he managed to get to be head of state after the 39-40 debacle, while he was already fairly senile, and only got worse with time.

Concerning Leonard... well, he's not quite that nuts, but he's still an evil bastard who got power and does what he likes with it... it's well known that the greatest military minds do tend to remain in the field, while the more mediocre rise to the top ranks.

[Colonel Wolfe]

As for Nutjobs being unable to get to high office...

Well, such names as Hitler, Himmler and Göring come to mind... and maybe Josiph Vissarionovitch Jugachvili too... and that's Just a couple IRL instances off the top.

Hitler never made above Corpral in the Milliraty. he Made his Seat as a Polotical power. not really the same thing as leonard. Implying Leonard is like Hitler is absurd. Breetia and Exord are more Guilty of Genocide then Leonard.

Concerning TR Edwards, well, the Military tends to look at results beofre checking the details of how they were gotten... the most celebrated French hero of WWI was General Petain, who was made a Marshal, and that guy was a pure butcher, not to mention that he managed to get to be head of state after the 39-40 debacle, while he was already fairly senile, and only got worse with time.

Edwards is a non-canon Character, no matter what he is said to have did, done or be, he no longer exists in Robotech. But if Results Matter, Rick Hunter was a Spineless Weiner in Robotech, he Must have dont alot of Growing up in the years after the SDF-1s destruction, the guy at the end of the MAcross era would have never made that rank.

Concerning Leonard... well, he's not quite that nuts, but he's still an evil bastard who got power and does what he likes with it... it's well known that the greatest military minds do tend to remain in the field, while the more mediocre rise to the top ranks.

Using Text fomr the Show, prove Leonard was going beyond his command, Acting Evil, or had no father.
Leonard is a Leader b/c he has Over 30+ years of Service in the Millitary. Even if he's a "Mediocre" Feild Commander, he is a expert leader and is a person willing to make the Tough Desission to get the job done.

[Svartalf]

Leonard's insistence on applying a strategy that could be predicted not to be effective, and his uselessly sacrificing his men suffice to prove his ineffectiveness as a military commander, and his being a fatherless nasty, else he'd be more of a father figure to those under him.

As for his being an expert leader with 30 years experience, I'd more liken him to a uniformed politician... every skill aimed at getting power and keeping it, none in the proper use of it or in being able to take good and proper decisions when needed.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Whats an Effective Stratigy against an enemy that shoots down 99% of Missile barages, has an Advanced Sheild system and Mecha 100yrs more Advanced then your best technology?

Sometimes a Spearhead charge is the only Stratgy Left. The Masters were a Superior Foe. the Best Methods the UEG had Devised to Destroy Manavelont Enemy invaders Failed. The Ship busted Missiles barely scratched the hull of the Mother Ship (the one from Volly that made it through). and you Can't Flank a Master Mother ship.... because its hard to figure out which side is the Front.Leonard was not Elected to his position, He was Assigned the Job by the UEG. He answers to a Chancelor/Primeminister, and is under pressure from them to get Results.

Want a Terrible Statigist? Rick Hunter.... 3 Waves to Retake the Earth... One pilot Survives form Scotts Division (Scott).

Instead of Quoting Opion and Defunt Storyline, use the Show in its Given form.

Edit: in the New Wild Storm Comics Line, Leonard is a Member of the Millitary, as of 2006 he is a Colonel in the United Earht forces, Liason for the Excaliber Project. Thats from the new Offical Comics.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

As for his being an expert leader with 30 years experience, I'd more liken him to a uniformed politician... every skill aimed at getting power and keeping it, none in the proper use of it or in being able to take good and proper decisions when needed.

Since Svartalf is talking out his backside again, it falls to me to provide information from the Robotech Tv series to set him straight. Pay attention Svart, you can learn something today. Put down your Jack McKinney novels and read this.

Robotech Eps. #46 Star Dust (UEF HQ, Supreme Commander's Office)

General Leonard: Your Excellency, we must wait until we know more.
Prime Minister Moran: The final decision is yours, but I hope you understand that its becoming increasingly difficult to defend your inaction.
General Leonard: Yes, I understand that.
Prime Minister Moran: Good. I expect you to attack as soon as possible, Commander.
.....Comm-screen fades out as the connection is broken
General Leonard: Your Excellency, plea....*Groan*
...comm is overriden by the Masters
Disembodied Tirolian voice: People of Earth....
General Leonard: What?
Disembodied Tirolian voice: Consider this message a final warning. Interfere with our plans again and you face extinction.
...Leonard has flabergasted look on his face

I do believe that the Prime Minister of the United Earth Government gave an order to Leonard. Failure to obey such an order results in being relieved of duty. Ask MacAurther.

Oh...and the 'Oh, we're Galactic Space Hippies Who Only Wanna Talk with Humanity and Be Peaceful' did give an ultimatum to General Leonard. The word extinction should be stressed. Look it up if you're unfamiliar with the its meaning.

Robotech - Eps. #48 Deja Vu (UEF HQ, Supreme Commder's Office)

General Leonard: I dont care if he is human or android, all I know is that your investigation has been fruitless.
General Emerson: Professor Cochrane is confident. We have every reason to believe that a breakthrough is iminent.
General Leonard: Thats not enough! This bioroid pilot of yours is a soldier of the enemy, and the enemy must be exterminated. Can't you see that!
General Emerson: Sir, if you destroy the prisoner, you destroy our only way of finding out what the enemy wants here.
General Leonard: Are you blind man! I think its painfully obvious that they are after the obliteration of the human race and the complete destruction of the Earth!
General Emerson: I'm well aware of that, Commander, but aside from his military importance I will not be a party to the execution of a prisoner who for all we know may be as human as you or I!
General Leonard: If the bioroid is a human that would make him a traitor to his own people, am I wrong?
General Emerson: ::groans::
General Leonard: And you know what the punishment is for traitors! You may go.
General Emerson: Sir!

Well...looks like Zor Prime is as good as dead if old 'Bigot #1 Leonard' gets ahold of him. Except thats right, Leonard didn't have him executed. Also, he was in a meeting of the United Earth Command Staff Officer's when he was informed that the captured Bioroid pilot died in Metal Fire. There is also the fact that Dana Sterling is a half-breed Zentraedi. If Leonard were a card-carrying white sheet warmer, wouldn't Dana have been lynched long ago? We never see crosses being burned on the front lawn of the 15th's barracks.

Robotech eps. #50 Triumvirate (1st Offensive Flagship Bridge)

Captain Nordoff: A third of our battle fleet and nearly half of out transports have already been lost! Sir, its impossible for us to maintain battle formation. I suggest we withdraw immediately.
General Leonard: Nonsense. Why haven't you already brought the armored attack choppers to bear against the enemy, Captain?
Captain Nordoff: We've been awfully busy just trying to survive up to this point. Sir, if I may point out, the enemy has been dispatching our largest battlecruisers with impressive regularity. I hardly think attack choppers have a....
General Leonard: Captain! That is a question for me to decide! You just follow your instructions. Dispatch the Ajax!

Its interesting if you have actually bothered to watch this episode, something I highly doubt some of you have done. As soon as Nordoff deploys his Ajax fighter cover (seeing as how he had no CAP when he engaged the Masters head on), the Tirolians had to stop firing their big capital-ship killing reflex cannon. They were forced to switch to their smaller particle cannons (which were still deadly) as well as their point-defense systems.

Oh, that also brings me around to another 'gripe' Ive heard from time to time. Leonard supposedly sent his forces out piecemeal. Lets just have a look see at what exactly it was people were talking about. These are the minimum numbers (where possible) of ships we see on screen.

Just to be CRYSTAL CLEAR on this issue, these are the total minimums we can count. The total number is not yet known as Harmony Gold has not yet seen fit to elaborate on these. Note, these figures also do not represent the Pioneer Mission/REF ships we see in Mind Games and Catastrophe.

Force disposition of the 1st Space Offensive from Triumvirate:

34 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
6 Nelson-class Destroyers.

Because of the nature of the episode (the battle focuses mainly on the heavy cruisers), there is no accurate count of the number of Nelsons, however, every indication on screen is that a x2 escort force is the usual disposition (they almost invariably outnumber the heavier ships by 2:1). We arrive at the minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force (75 per Ardennes, 45 per Nelson): 2820 Veritechs/Starfighters. This is not taking into account that the ships can be overloaded with an additional 50% of mecha. This is also only using the 6 confirmed Nelsons, although evidence suggests more.

Force disposition of Cavalry-1 Relief Forces from Clone Chamber:

5 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
Added to this mix are 5 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles that were with the forces returning from the Moon.

The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 375. This is not taking into account that the ships can be overloaded with an additional 50% of mecha.

Force disposition of the 2nd Space Offensive in Love Song:

2 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
6 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
7 Nelson-class Destroyers

The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force (220 fighters for the Tristars): 1205. This is not taking into account that the ships can be overloaded with an additional 50% of mecha.

Force disposition of the Planetary Assault Force in Mind Games:

1 Tokugawa-class Super Carrier
2 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
6 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
9 Nelson-class Destroyers

The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force (1000 fighters for the Tokugawas): 2295. This is not taking into account that the ships can be overloaded with an additional 50% of mecha.

Force disposition of General Leonard's reinforcements of General Emerson's forces at the end of Final Nightmare:

2 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Nelson-class Destroyers

The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 240. This is not taking into account that the ships can be overloaded with an additional 50% of mecha.

Oh while I'm on it, I do believe there is some pertinent piece of dialogue from this episode...

Colonel Green: All units are away,sir. Will you be watching the battle from here on the bridge?
General Emerson: No.
Colonel Green: Sir?
General Emerson: I want this ship prepared for battle at once.
Colonel Rochelle: What?.....a flabbergasted look on his face
Colonel Green But, General, why?
General Emerson: As the commander of this fleet, I plan to lead the attack, not be a spectator.
both Colonels: Sir!
......General Seward running down the hallway towards Leonard's office....
General Seward: Uh, Supreme Commander. I've just been informed that General Emerson's ships are engaging the enemy.
....Leonard leaps to his feet.....
General Leonard: Then order the immediate launch of the fleet. We must give him all the support that is possible.

Hmm....thats funny. I could have sworn that a.) the commanding General of a military force conducts operations where he can oversee a battle so as to better gauge situations and b.) If Leonard wanted Emerson deader than a fragging doornail...why did he send relief forces at all?

Force disposition of the Final Space Offensive in Catastrophe:

1 Tokugawa-class Super Carrier
25 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
42 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
6 Nelson-class Destroyers

The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 9920. This is not taking into account that the ships can be overloaded with an additional 50% of mecha.

This makes a grand total minimum of onscreen warships from the United Earth Forces during Southern Cross (including the Liberty Observer Fleet from Dana's Story and 5 Pegasus Assault Shuttles from Volunteers and Stardust):

2 Tokugawa-class Super Carriers
29 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
104 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
32 Nelson-class Destroyers
15 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles

Grand total minimum number of Veritechs/Starfighters (including the extras from Dana's Story, Volunteers and Stardust: 15,460. This is not taking into account that the ships can be overloaded with an additional 50% of mecha.

That hardly sounds like a piecemeal force. There is also the simple fact, something that most of you apparently aren't smart enough to realise, is that ANY attack in space is a frontal assault. When you have hundreds of thousands of kilometers in any direction to detect an attack, all fleet engagements will be head on assaults. Thats why the Invid got their butts handed to them when they attempted assault the REF fleet while still in transit between the Earth and Moon.

Oh, one other thing that many of you seem to fail to realise is that diplomacy can only be handled by diplomats. Its not in Leonard's job description, though he could recieve and negotiate surrenders. If anyone wanted to open up negotiations with the Masters, it would have had to have been at the request of the Prime Minister, not the Supreme Commander.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Nice Indepth Study of the Serise Rabid, and you even Followed my Request to Svartalf, and only used Text from the Show. Looks more Like Leonard was under Pressure for Get Results, and when one of his Generals desided to go headlong in to a "Meat Grinder" he send in back up to Save his butt.

I'd more liken him to a uniformed politician... every skill aimed at getting power and keeping it, none in the proper use of it or in being able to take good and proper decisions when needed.

Not From any of the Text Presented here. Millitary Commander, Following Orders, Prsocuting a War Against an Enemy who only wants for the Destruction of Earth.

Really, if he wanted Emmerson dead, he'd just Shoot him in the head if he Were "Evil".

[taalismn]

As for the Weakned Masters, in Ep. 59, The Invid connection, the Master Tell Leonard and the Earth forces: "Evacuate the planet within thirty-eight hours or we will be forced to destroy your homeworld."

.

I've always felt that at that point the Masters were bluffling...(unless they had something wholly impractical like a cobalt bomb....that would end up destroying everything they'd sought to gain)...At that point the Humans had proven rather more tougher than expected, hadn't been phazed by either the Masters' obvious technological superiority or the prospect of facing Zyclonic-reprogrammed fellow humans, their resolve was actually STIFFENING, and the Humans were acting less rational in combat(i.e. suicidal rammings, boarding for melee combat, etc...), and on top of it all the Masters were facing the prospect of dissolution from within, and an Invid invasion from without. Frankly, the Three Withered Freaks were losing their composure at the prospect that the rotten little Micronians might actually WIN again. And since genetic engineering had given them rather impressive poker faces, they fell back on an empty bluff . (oh, sure, they could atomize a few more cities, but destroy the planet? Not gonna happen.

[taalismn]

Whats an Effective Stratigy against an enemy that shoots down 99% of Missile barages, has an Advanced Sheild system and Mecha 100yrs more Advanced then your best technology?

.

Hmmm.....reconfigure Space Station Liberty into a giant bunny rabbit and leave it their path?

Candygram wrapped around a thermonuclear city buster?

A boutique of flowers, a 'Please don't kill us" note, a box of chocolates, and enough arsenic to cause Mothership-wide food poisoning?

45,000 channels of digitally restored and enhanced Minmei music beamed right up their receptors?

The complete, uncensored, televised Emerson-Leonard 'Who makes the Better Military Commander' debates with full simultaneous and post-debate analysis and spin by the 'unbiased' media?(actually that might net us the result "Forget about the Protoculture Matrix and kill them all. There's no intelligent life down there.")

[Colonel Wolfe]

Hmmm.....reconfigure Space Station Liberty into a giant bunny rabbit and leave it their path?

Candygram wrapped around a thermonuclear city buster?

A boutique of flowers, a 'Please don't kill us" note, a box of chocolates, and enough arsenic to cause Mothership-wide food poisoning?

45,000 channels of digitally restored and enhanced Minmei music beamed right up their receptors?

while not Sound Military Stratgies, These Could have worked is the Montypythonguys & SNL crew were in the UEF Highcommand.

The complete, uncensored, televised Emerson-Leonard 'Who makes the Better Military Commander' debates with full simultaneous and post-debate analysis and spin by the 'unbiased' media?(actually that might net us the result "Forget about the Protoculture Matrix and kill them all. There's no intelligent life down there.")

nah, they are pertty obsesed with the Matrix. it would be "Send them our Episodes of Reality tv... the humans would fear our love of "Big Brother"- the Reality Show about the a Tirolian child who is sent to live with a Zentradi family"

[taalismn]

[quote="Colonel Wolfe
nah, they are pertty obsesed with the Matrix. it would be "Send them our Episodes of Reality tv... the humans would fear our love of "Big Brother"- the Reality Show about the a Tirolian child who is sent to live with a Zentradi family"[/quote]

LOL!
How about a reality program where Leonard, Emerson, Zor, Khyron, and the Regent(anyone else?) are forced to share an apartment.....Who gets booted out first(and who gets strangled in the bathroom)?

[MOrab46019]

I washed the Novel was closer to the TV show. GMP was made up of ex RDF's. So to me wouldn't they do more to support Emerson who was a ex RDF himself then Leonard? Would you think they would have sent more of Leondard's backer into space then Emerson's? Nova she was closer to the RDF then the ASC. I guess most of this wasn't shown. Too bad it would have made the RDF ASC and Master war.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The REF and the ASC are the Same Millitray Force, basically.

ASC= Army National Guard.
REF= Forces sent overseas.

Leonard was a Colonel in the RDF in 2006. he is a "Ex-RDF" soilder.

In the Pyrimid of Power is like this

the UEG Prime Minister
Supream Commander Leonard
Cheif of Staff ot the Armies of the Southren cross Rolf Emmerson.
The Commanders of the Diffrent Groups in the ASC answer to Emmerson.

The Commander of the GMP answers to Leonard Directly.

a Good picture of the Command Chart is here: http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/Research/SCross/Images/SC-Org-Map_tia10.jpg
Though it Details the Origonal Anime, it is not to Off from how the Millitary is set up in the SC era.

as for the GMP being ex-RDF, Many of the People who Survived the Macross Era RDF would be in there 40's in 2029. The Southren Cross is mentioned in the MAcross Era, Most peoepl who joined the UEF and did not want to go off world, would be members of the ASC not RDF (people who would go off world would be assigned to the REF).

Too bad it would have made the RDF ASC and Master war.

Are you implying the RDF(REF) and the ASC would fight? and fight the masters?

[BookWyrm]

Leonard was a tin-plated, power-hungry loon, no matter how you slice it. If you look at the back story of his life, you can tell that he blamed the Zentraedi & Tyrolians for everything, from messing up his chances for power after the Global Civil War to convincing the REF into leaving for Fantomaspace. Leonard was Earth's counterpart to T.R. Edwards, who should have never survived the GCW. But, like most cockroaches, they find a way to survive.

Leonard wasted no time making sure his position of power was secured.

I vaguely remember the bit about him fathering a half-Zentraedi child from the comics, but they way they portrayed it, the kid would have to have been born before Dana Sterling was. I always had a problem with that.
Leonard was just as power-hungry as the Tyrolian Robotech Masters who arrived on Earth, and he would have struck some kind of deal with them to make himself look just as much (or greater) like a hero than Rick Hunter, or had the REF returned, he'd have claimed the returning forces were under 'alien mind-control' & ordered them to attack. He never got rid of Dana because she was a barganing chip that he could play against Max & Miriya (and thus, the REF) in case things went sour.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Leonard was a tin-plated, power-hungry loon, no matter how you slice it. If you look at the back story of his life, you can tell that he blamed the Zentraedi & Tyrolians for everything, from messing up his chances for power after the Global Civil War to convincing the REF into leaving for Fantomaspace. Leonard was Earth's counterpart to T.R. Edwards, who should have never survived the GCW. But, like most cockroaches, they find a way to survive.

Really? You read this where... wait you explain this in the next paragraph.

Leonard wasted no time making sure his position of power was secured.

I vaguely remember the bit about him fathering a half-Zentraedi child from the comics, but they way they portrayed it, the kid would have to have been born before Dana Sterling was, I always had a problem with that.

good... you read the Comics... Well. Leonard Mentions no childrens in the Show, had he been like TR edwards... he would open Gloat about his Vile plans for Revenge, sorry your comparison is Bogus as the Novels and Comics you read.

Leonard was just as power-hungry as the Tyrolian Robotech Masters who arrived on Earth, and he would have struck some kind of deal with them to make himself look just as much (or greater) like a hero than RickHunter,

Lets Compare Rick and Leonard...

Rick... Leader of the REF mission to find the Master Home world.
Leonard... Leader of all armed Froces on the Earth
Rick.... Send back Failed wave after wave to retake the earht fomr a few invid.
Leonard... Sends wave after wave against the Masters, the Invadeing Force who threaten to Destroy the Planet.

Rick... Send the Finale Fleet to earth, and Okay the use of the Neutron s Missile to Destroy the Earth.
Leonard... Dies Fighting an Enemy he Stoped From Destroying the Planet.

or had the REF returned, he'd have claimed the returning forces were under 'alien mind-control' & ordered them to attack.

Really... When the USS Hanible returns to earth he gladly Welcomes them in. don't remember him ever having the ASC attack returning REF ships at the End of the Robotech Masters War Either... Frankly this Sounds like more bogus novels stuff.

He never got rid of Dana because she was a barganing chip that he could play against Max & Miriya (and thus, the REF) in case things went sour.

Really... then Why dose he Order the 15th to take on some of the most Dangerous Missions in the Show? if he wanted a Bargening chip, hed have he in the Brig the entire Lenght of the Show...


I used to Believe the Same things about Leonard, until i actually Watched the Show, Leonard is a Hot head, and hes under a Ton of Pressure form the UEG to get Results, but a Villan... a Power hungry Polotician... or Willing to betray humanity, sorry, its not shown in the Show, its not implied in the Show, It Complete Bull form Mckinny and the Horrible Comics that HG Rubber stamped.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Easy there, Wolfe. Those bogus comics and novels are all a lot of us had to go on for over a decade.

Like i said, I used to say the same things... and follow a simmiler logic pattren.... but the Show never Implies any of it, and in most Cases proves it to be false. Leonard was in his 40's after the Zentradie joined Society... I cant see him having a Kid at that age, with his Career and the amount of Responisbility he has Earned by the year 2030.

[Colonel Wolfe]

He's Fat and Bald....

Dose Shatner Look 70 when he has a few pound on him? no... the fat streatech out them Wrinkels!

Susan Sommers is like 60 to... and she was pertty hot last i saw her.

plus.. Medical advancement in the Robotech universe May have allowed peopel to reaitn there youth in to old age, Look at Wolfe... in many time lines he is over 60 when he appears in eulogy.

Edit: he was born in 73, he's 56 st the beginng of the ACS protion

[Colonel Wolfe]

As long as you don't Blame "Anime Physics" I'll be happy....

[Colonel Wolfe]

well... remember the Beta goes Mach8 in space...

RPg Physics and Anime Physics go well together.

Thou not the place for this.. My Dis-like of Macross is solid now.. i read a breif Description of Macross7... any Macross Fan who think Macross is Grounded in Real technology... Macross 7 is Closer to "the Grim Advantures of Billy and Mandy" Than it is to a Serious Scf-Fi Anime.

just had to confess it somewhere.

[Colonel Wolfe]

yes, When you sing and Play a Guitar to Fly your Valk... I cant help but hate it.

Instrumecha were Dumb....
Macross 7 took that to 100x the next level.

[taalismn]

[quote="Colonel Wolfe"]yes, When you sing and Play a Guitar to Fly your Valk... I cant help but hate it.
quote]

Further evidence of advanced A.I. autopilot software there...
Just be grateful that his mecha wasn't rigged to be piloted by "Dance Dance Revolution".....

[Svartalf]

Another Hallowe'en horror : Bandito as a valkyrie pilot...

[Colonel Wolfe]

yes, When you sing and Play a Guitar to Fly your Valk... I cant help but hate it.
quote]

Further evidence of advanced A.I. autopilot software there...
Just be grateful that his mecha wasn't rigged to be piloted by "Dance Dance Revolution".....

So... Basically Basara is a Passanger on the Veritech... the Mecha is doin all the Thinking and the Piloting... yep, Still Stupid.

[BookWyrm]

What I meant was that Leonard came off to me, in both the show and the novels, as the villain-in-knight's-armor type, somewhat much like TR Edwards did. Both were either on the opposing side of the neo-UEG (Edwards), or was in some position in the 'good-guys' camp (I figure Leonard was a low-level military beauraucrat given some measure of influence by some snafu) and done 'questionable' things during the Global Civil War and the 1st RT War. They came off as opportunistic, power-addicted freaks. Which was probably the idea.
Also, I didn't like the idea that Leonard had fathered a half-Zentraedi, later revealed dead, & the authors used that as the reason for his madness. Leonard ALWAYS hated the Zentraedi, and he saw Dana as a 'perversion'. Bigots like Leonard don't need a reason to hate.

And if he was holding Dana as a 'bargaining chip', why did he send her on the most dangerous missions? Well, to test her of course. If she survived, then he still had his 'ace-up-the-sleeve'. If not, his hands were (relatively speaking) clean & he had one less trouble maker to put up with.

Anyway, that was my opinion of him.

[The Artist Formerly]

I disagree with Leonard's command style. He didn't think thing through, failed to take into account all of the relivant data, often assigned motives to the Robotech Masters actions because it's that's what would have prompted him to act in such a fashion. Those are all command failures. Information is always your best weapon and defense, and Leonard never invested enough into getting it in proper amounts. By the time he did look into gaining more insight into his opposition, things were already wildly out of control.

You can always shoot after you've talked, you can't often talk after you've shot.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Opening a Dialog with the Masters was not What Loenard was Orderd to do.

The Masters were not Interested in Talking with the Lesser Creatures of Earth, they Came for the Matrix, blew up what ever was in there path to get to Earth, and NEVER Attemped Communication.

When Someone breaks in your house... Kills you Loved ones... do you go Asking them how their Childhood was, and if they want to take your TV?

I hope people Reply No...

as of Episode 38 False Start, Leonard had almost no Recon on the enemy, and the Prime Minister and his Cabnet Looking for Results... The Primeminster never Seamed interested in letting Thousand Die, while a Dialog was opened with the Enemy. He wanted the Threat Gone and the Safety of the Earht secured. Leonard Being a Soilder, Obeyed His Orders and set to Defending the Earth.

You can always shoot after you've talked, you can't often talk after you've shot.

Exactly, The Master Fired First, Destroying 2 Spoace Stations and a Moon base. (Possibly Mars base as well). they Stuck their Foot in the hornets nest...

[The Artist Formerly]

Opening a Dialog with the Masters was not What Loenard was Orderd to do.

The Masters were not Interested in Talking with the Lesser Creatures of Earth, they Came for the Matrix, blew up what ever was in there path to get to Earth, and NEVER Attemped Communication.

When Someone breaks in your house... Kills you Loved ones... do you go Asking them how their Childhood was, and if they want to take your TV?

I hope people Reply No...

as of Episode 38 False Start, Leonard had almost no Recon on the enemy, and the Prime Minister and his Cabnet Looking for Results... The Primeminster never Seamed interested in letting Thousand Die, while a Dialog was opened with the Enemy. He wanted the Threat Gone and the Safety of the Earht secured. Leonard Being a Soilder, Obeyed His Orders and set to Defending the Earth.

You can always shoot after you've talked, you can't often talk after you've shot.

Exactly, The Master Fired First, Destroying 2 Spoace Stations and a Moon base. (Possibly Mars base as well). they Stuck their Foot in the hornets nest...

Well, I'd hope to keep him talking while I look for a advantage or weakness. Swinging blindly at an opponet you barely understand just gets your kids dead. To borrow from a great general, dead marines can't take objectives.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Opening a Dialog with the Masters was not What Loenard was Orderd to do.

The Masters were not Interested in Talking with the Lesser Creatures of Earth, they Came for the Matrix, blew up what ever was in there path to get to Earth, and NEVER Attemped Communication.

When Someone breaks in your house... Kills you Loved ones... do you go Asking them how their Childhood was, and if they want to take your TV?

I hope people Reply No...

as of Episode 38 False Start, Leonard had almost no Recon on the enemy, and the Prime Minister and his Cabnet Looking for Results... The Primeminster never Seamed interested in letting Thousand Die, while a Dialog was opened with the Enemy. He wanted the Threat Gone and the Safety of the Earht secured. Leonard Being a Soilder, Obeyed His Orders and set to Defending the Earth.

You can always shoot after you've talked, you can't often talk after you've shot.

Exactly, The Master Fired First, Destroying 2 Spoace Stations and a Moon base. (Possibly Mars base as well). they Stuck their Foot in the hornets nest...

Well, I'd hope to keep him talking while I look for a advantage or weakness. Swinging blindly at an opponet you barely understand just gets your kids dead. To borrow from a great general, dead marines can't take objectives.

Ahh, Keep him talking While he Kills you to.

Invaders Rarely Want to Talk, the onlyCommunication Leonard got From the Masters was telling him to Surrender or they would Commit Genocide.
"Dead Marines Cant Take Objectives" Simple Logic, I agree. but Waiting Till your Enemy has overran your Defenses and begun Destroying Your home, Leaves you nothing to Fight for.

You Fail to get the Fact the Robotech Masters Never Sought to open a Dialog, they invaded, Destroyed, and Killed Hundreds if not Thousands Before the ASC Fired the First Shot.
Talking to them after they had Done This would put the ASC in a position of Weakness, As if Begging for the Masters to Stop. Only after a Brutal Show of Force did the Master Realise they had Pissed in the Wrong Peopels Cherioos.

The only Reason the Masters Did not use their Ability to Destroy earth, was the Fear of Losing there Target. They Came to Get the Matrix, If they had gotten to it with no Resistance, nothing in the Powers of any UEF force Could have stoped them from Destroying the Earth.

[glitterboy2098]

leonard is a "french general".

the french have some of the best soldiers in the world because they'll follow orders exactly without questioning them, and don't think for themselves beyond a certain level. unfortunately this is why the french officer corps gets so much flack. what is great in a soldier is bad for a commander.

we know that leonard was under orders to fight back against the masters, and he even seemed willing to wait for more information before trying more assualts, but was overruled.

his bluster was likely camoflauge to conceal the pain he had in ordering men to their deaths. a real Patton type individual. very sensitive guy, but puts on a uber-tough front.

[Colonel Wolfe]

in SDC Southren cross, hes 48.

Adding 8 years and making him 56 wouldnt be a stretch for how old he appears on screen. Somepeople just age well.

his bluster was likely camoflauge to conceal the pain he had in ordering men to their deaths. a real Patton type individual. very sensitive guy, but puts on a uber-tough front.

I Couldn't Agree more.

[taalismn]

fans of Commander Leonard might want to check out www.iatethesdf-3.com/ , and the file Commander Leonard= General Patton? and feel vindicated....
Lots of other fun stuff and humor there...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

fans of Commander Leonard might want to check out www.iatethesdf-3.com/ , and the file Commander Leonard= General Patton? and feel vindicated....

Heh....yea...AlphaVT's website. He hasn't been too involved in fandom lately, which is sad. However, he has good reasons: a girlfriend, ROTC and college work.

[glitterboy2098]

leonard is a "french general".

the french have some of the best soldiers in the world because they'll follow orders exactly without questioning them, and don't think for themselves beyond a certain level. unfortunately this is why the french officer corps gets so much flack. what is great in a soldier is bad for a commander.

we know that leonard was under orders to fight back against the masters, and he even seemed willing to wait for more information before trying more assualts, but was overruled.

his bluster was likely camoflauge to conceal the pain he had in ordering men to their deaths. a real Patton type individual. very sensitive guy, but puts on a uber-tough front.

French??? pls,pls,pls,pls don't get me started. the last great french army was defeated at Waterloo, they have been door mats every sense

the french lost waterloo because Napoleon was sick and convalescing in a town 100miles away. waterloo was lost by french generals. (Napoleon was corsican, ethnic italian.)

and notice i never said the french have a great military. just ideal soldiers. and that the same traits that make french soldiers so good are what make french officers so bad. and all students of military history know that battles are won by soldiers, but wars are lost by officers.

[Colonel Wolfe]

<LEft Blank in an attempt to keep the thread here>

[Colonel Wolfe]

'The only thing the French are good for is hosting an invasion'
- Johnny English

now Rabid, Thats not completly Fair, the French make some nice Pasteries.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I'd been Dead, The Point has been Debated and the War Line drawn, both Side have Agreed to Disagree and That Ends the Thread. any more posts are in effect Beating a Dead Horse.

Eaither the People Believe:

Leonard was on a Self Profiting Tiraid to Rule the Known universe, and Kill every non-human he could. (The McKinney/RPG/Macek View)

or

Leonard was Just doing his job, Following the Commnads of his Supeiors and Defedning the Earht from a Ruthless Enemy determined to Destroy the Earth. (The Corrcet interpitation Solely from the Series)

[Svartalf]

Well, in the Japanese version he's "Claude Leon", so perhaps it's not such an off description.

Maybe you folks noticed that in the original ASC, a lot of the characters have French sounding or looking names?

Let's see... Jeanne Français (Dana Sterling) Hom Frenchier can you get?
Claude Leon (and stayed a Frenchie as Anatole Leonard), Louis Ducasse (Louie Nichols), Marie Angel (Marie Crystal; while the family name is not exactly too common in French families, the spelling for Marie is a dead giveaway) and Charles de Thouard (Seàn Philips)

[Svartalf]

now Rabid, Thats not completly Fair, the French make some nice Pasteries.

Gives wolfe my favorite, It's called a Yussupov after the guy who created the recipe, and that one's Fresh

[Colonel Wolfe]

Eli Leonard is his name, Anatole is his Middle name IIRC