Why did Palladium not like Southern Cross?

[Colonel Wolfe]

DISCLAIMER: this is not a Advertisement for Amazon.com, I Simply Used the Sales Rankings as a Basis for Sales of Robotech DVD's. I do not condone the Sale methods of said company, or the use of Animals in lab testing

A little lack of desire went into it also - let's face it, ASC has always been one of the least popular of the series, and why not spend the money on the more popular 3rds, right?

Of Corse The Macross Guru would Put ASC as the third most popular Portion of the Show. Funny Thing is, DVD sales show that not to be True, if the ASC portion was so hated... why did it have Higher DVD Sales than the other 2 era's for a Time, and Sodl very well over all... if it was so unpopular the Sales would ahev shown a Sharp Diffrence in the Sales between teh ACS era DVD's and the other 2 eras.

Amazon.com sales Rankings for the Robotech DVD's:
The Macross Saga - Legacy Collection 1-#22,125
The Macross Saga - Legacy Collection 2-#22,355
The Macross Saga - Legacy Collection 3-#20,539

Masters - Legacy Collection 4-#24,198
Masters - Legacy Collection 5- #14,246

The New Generation - Legacy Collection 6 -#18,987
The New Generation - Legacy Collection 7-#19,037

(Average Sales Rankings Places Macross era DVD's in 3rd place, ASC in 2nd, and New gen as the best sellers over all.)



Not a bad Rankings for the *******Child fo the Show that HG gives Zero support to(thanks to Tommy yunn).
Seams people over at amazon Like the Later half of the show much more than the Macross Era.

Real funny...my Viewing on Amazon recomends I buy:
• Robotech
• Ghost in the Shell Feature Film
• Dark Tower
form Viewing the Robotech DVD sets.

Steven king books and Robotech... not the mix I expected. but then again, I like the Dark tower books.

[glitterboy2098]

why did the ASC book get such glaring holes and errors?

lack of available source information at the time (when the RPG was made HG was pretty much ignoring the existance of SC), and Sembeida was busy getting RIFTS ready for print.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

I think you nailed it with the rifts comment.

and why did ASC get such poor art?

The Amazon figures could be because people waited to find cheeper prices for the stuff the did not want to get ASAP, such as the Macross Saga and New Generation.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I agree with everything you said about advertising: but one thing is interesting:

I for one have personally noticed the first dvd set of the Southern Cross season advertised much more heavily than any of the other dvd sets

It has the Lowest Ranking of all 7 Sets...

I'm Currently doin a Sampleing of other Distributors to see what they have for Sales of the Various sets... unfortunatly ADV dosen't Keep that kinda Info online, maybe others will.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Finding this information online is a bugger, and neither Walmart of Bestbuy show that kinda information online... Getting a Sales Record from my local Walmart would have "Bass Fisherman5" as the top selling thing every... and Contacting the Home office in Bentonvile Ak, might get the Walmart mafia after me...

so Far no Response from HG/robotech.com on There Sales Records. but Tommy Yune's Opion on the ASC era ia very low, and he Quoted the Masters DVD sold aroun 25% of the others, and were only Bought by Collectors seaking to get the Whole Colection.

The Amazon Statstics could support that Theory... if you bought the Macross DVDs at Bestbuy.. and wanted the complete Set, Sure buying them on a Discount Web site is the way to go. I'd buy the Macross era Remasters online if i can get them as Close to Free as you Legally can.

[Jefffar]

The only one who can explain the differences and errors found in Southern Cross (and the other books) are their respective authors.

None of them regularly read or post on this forum.

So the only thing we can come up with is speculation.

While we are speculating: Here's a mix of what I understand to be true. i could be wrong, but this is the best I can come up with.


If Rifts was the cause of the problems in the Southern Cross book, then Invid Invasion would be an even worse mess.

Kevin has, in the past, admitted he wasn't interested in Robotech before he had to make an RPG for it. He did it as a contract work. What effect this had on the product is a matter of conjecture, but I doubt it helped things. The wealth of excellent fan created websites and the fantastic work in the Macross II Deck Plans books goes to show what enthusiasim can do for a project of this type.

The images used in Southern Cross seem to be predominatly bad copies that were supplied by HG. Some of it got cleaned up, some of it was origional, but not all of it.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Richard Burke, a dear friend and onetime employee, was the guy who turned me on to ROBOTECH®. For months he kept badgering me to watch this great new science fiction cartoon. It was epic, not for little kids, had great robot designs, strong characters, stronger story, and would adapt perfectly to the Palladium Game System. But I was buried under work (as always, it seems) and just kept saying, "Yeah, yeah I'll watch it one of these days."

Then, one day in April 1986, I did watch an episode. It was damn good. Twenty episodes later, I was 100% sold! I needed, not wanted, this license. "Rick! Why didn't you make me watch this show sooner!? He just smiled knowingly.

I contacted Harmony Gold, the company that produced and licenses ROBOTECH®, and finally spoke to their Vice President of Licensing. I made my pitch. It was good. The Vice President, cleared his throat and said something like, "You and your company sound perfect for this license, but I'm afraid I have some bad news." The bad news was that Steve Jackson Games had been negotiating for the ROBOTECH® license for the past few months. The VP of licensing expected a signed contract that very afternoon.

and there was History.

I Blame Macek....

[Jefffar]

I've heard an alternate version of that story, with Kevin not watching until he went after the liscence.

Of course, my source wasn't Kevin. but it was someone I felt was reliable in this.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

it's a lie.

that was put in there to cover up the fact that KS and SJ are the same person.
but I do believe he is/was a fan of RT.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well, Kevin said Simmiler Things about how much he enjoyed Robotech when i met him and Maryann in 2001, about that Same Time he mentioned he was meeting an "unnamed" group about a "Possible" Rifts Movie deal.

Well, I could US-Mail Kevin a Letter and ask him, send a SASE for return mail.... wait 15 years... Scan it and post his answer here.....

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I like Kevin alot. Colonel Wolfe and I met him at DragonCon back in '01...but I must say that Palladium really dropped the ball with the Southern Cross book. Aside from the myriad and numerous mistakes, there is the simple fact that the mecha of the UEF are woefully underpowered compared to the mecha of Macross and Mospeada. This not only hurts chances for play in this era, it is also nonsensical. The technical level did not slide backwards nor did the UEF Home Forces (Army of the Southern Cross, Air Forces and Navy) lack protoculture with which to arm their mecha and warships. Tens of thousands of mecha and probably some 350 combat capital starships: Tokugawa's, Tristar's, Ardennes and Nelson's.

[Colonel Wolfe]

what rabid..... you mean the 60+ ships Shown in one Scene of the ASC potions were Actually ships.... the RPG sure Ignored them...

I alwasy Thought the Armies of the Southren Cross were to busy Hideing form the Big Ol E.B.S.I.S., While the Masters Ran Rampage over the whole earth....

[Svartalf]

>>and Sembeida was busy getting RIFTS ready for print.<<

In the fall of 1987? Three YEARS before RIFTS went to print and almost, what, SIX books before RIFTS saw the light of day?

I think not.

And as for a lack of source material? Nonsense. There was a lot of stuff out there at the time and there still is. Some of the material I have come across is dated all the way back then and a lot of the 'non-official' sites have all kinds of stuff that CLEARLY seem to come from the series...

I was born @ night, but not LAST night....

You're unduly optimistic... by the time a given product can be announced, then wait before it is either published or officially shelved... I guess the KS is prone to putter with a given project for LOOOOONG before deciding whether to finish it properly (or farm it out) or to annull it until and unless some breakthrough happens to get it bask into actuality.

[Colonel Wolfe]

In the fall of 1987? Three YEARS before RIFTS went to print and almost, what, SIX books before RIFTS saw the light of day?

11 actually.

1986-1989, 11 robotech Books:

Robotech: The Role Playing Game, First printing 1986
Robotech RPG Book 2: RDF Manual, 1987, by KS
Robotech RPG Book 3: The Zentraedi, 1987, by KS
Robotech RPG Book 4: Southern Cross,1987
Robotech RPG Book 5: Invid Invasion, 1988
Robotech RPG Book 6: Return of the Masters, 1989
Robotech RPG Adventures: RDF Accelerated Training Program, 1988
Robotech RPG Adventures: Ghost Ship, 1988
Robotech RPG Adventures: Lancer's Rockers, 1989
Robotech II: The Sentinels RPG, 1987
Robotech II: The Sentinels: REF Field Guide, 1989

1 in 1986, 4 in 87, 3 in 88, 3 in 89.

1987 was a busy year fo KS and Crew, 4 robotech books, plus what ever else he was doing that year... (TMNT? HU, ect.).

11 Books in 4 years, Impressive Stuff, if they accuired the in May, (the Company profile indictes KS got in to Robotech in April.. watched 20 episodes, and beat Steve Jackson to the License Deal). Thats Give him Less than 9 months to get Robotehc from Script, proof read and printed (not Including the new MDC syste being invented/playtested), the Following year he Printed a robotech book every 3 months.


[Edit: "Since its release in November of 1986, the Robotech RPG® has sold approximately 100,000 copies" Kevin tossed Robotech Together in 10 months, boy that man can Write, and Man Could Kevin Long Draw.]

His Story says he Watched 20 Episodes... Mostlikely 20 Episodes form the Beginning of the Series Giving him Strong Personal Experince on the Macross era, but this is Pure Speculation.

the Macross Era gets the Most Detail, 5 Books (counting Ghost ship and RDFATP), Southren Cross get 1, and New Gen got 3, and Sentinels (the 90minutes of footage) get 2. (Thou Palladium was Golden on Sentinels, one fo the Few Accurate Sources of Sentinels Information)

Over the next 12 years... Palladium did 3 books, added 40 pages to Return of the Masters, and Stans Rifter Article.

Robotech RPG Adventures: Zentraedi Breakout, 1994'
Robotech RPG Book 7: New World Order, 1995
Robotech RPG Book 8: Strike Force 1995
Robotech RPG Book 6: Return of the Masters,2nd edition: 1998 (40 additional pages)
And the Rifter Article.

As For Rifts Making the SC book suck.... nah, Kevin Tossed together Rifts over 10 years.... His Palladium of Desires Campaing, Robotech Testing the MDC system, and HU/PFRpg Testing the Magic System.

the Errors in Book 4: The Southren Cross were There, What made them.... no one can really say. (I blame Macek) But They can be Repaired, Via a Web based Errata.

The Things Palladium Added to the Robotech Universe were good and bad thing, the EBSIS is a very good Idea for a Left over Abti-Unification Front.
The Merchant Repbulic, a Union among non-UEG Memebr nations on the Earth.

Some were wrong and (in my opion) Heavly Influnced By Macek, the RPG and the Novels were both Advised 9in part) by Carl Macek, and they both have the Same (IMO) Flaws, Protoculture poor earth, Villans in the ASC army, a Defensless Earth after the REF left. Ideas that were not inherntly part of the Origonal version of the Show, but were Added in the Sentinels and the Novels.

whats thig got to do what the ASC book sucking WOLFE?

Macek caused it. Many interviews by him and his designs for the Sentinels Show he has a bit of Comtempt for the Masters Era of the Show. this has Passed on to The Later Fandom via the Novles and Tommy Yune.

but Who cares?

I dont know, but Id like to Think Enough People on this forum would like to see the Erros in the RPG Corrected Via a Web based Errata, (but unlike the anti-Kevs... not destroying the RPG at the same time).

Now Rabid, Point out the Errors/Ommisons in the Invid Invasion book.

[Colonel Wolfe]

it's a lie.

that was put in there to cover up the fact that KS and SJ are the same person.
but I do believe he is/was a fan of RT.

the Origonal Mayor of Swanky Town, started that Rumor... AnubisXy.

at DC01, Rabid and my self Asked Kevin if he was indeed Steve jackson.
he pled the 5th.

the other Rumor maryann told us about was that Kevin was Made up, Maryann actually Ran Palladiumbooks, but had to Make up a Male Alter-ego so she could be sucessful.

[MOrab46019]

There was something in the Magic Of Palladium paper many moons ago.
There was a book about under sea base. That never saw the light of day.

[Colonel Wolfe]

There was something in the Magic Of Palladium paper many moons ago.
There was a book about under sea base. That never saw the light of day.

the MOP Article covered a the Veritech Car, but IIRC, that was revisited in Strikeforce.

[AlexM]

I just want to add a few things. As part of the license agreement, all text and artwork had to be approved by Harmony Gold before it went to press. This is common for all license agreements of this type.

It's been a long time, so for those who don't know, Robotech was the joining together of three unrelated Japanese animated programs, Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada. The flowers Dana Sterling saw at the end of the original Japanese Southern Cross program were flowers, not Protoculture.


Alex Marciniszyn,
Palladium Books

[Colonel Wolfe]

I just want to add a few things. As part of the license agreement, all text and artwork had to be approved by Harmony Gold before it went to press. This is common for all license agreements of this type.

It's been a long time, so for those who don't know, Robotech was the joining together of three unrelated Japanese animated programs, Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada. The flowers Dana Sterling saw at the end of the original Japanese Southern Cross program were flowers, not Protoculture.


Alex Marciniszyn,
Palladium Books

they Weren't "Just Flowers" the Flowers were "Proto-zor" Which was a Simi-Awakened Plant that Resulted in the Zor becomming the Tri-unverate Species they were, and Makeing them setrile. those Flowers Spelled the Doom for Glory, no Invasion... just a Dead Race.

IMO: Hg's Always had a Sour Look for Southren Cross, so no doubt they would Approve anything Printed for that era. even today HG refuses to Produce Merchandise for SC, or Comics based in that Era. Palladium Could have Skiped the ASC era Completly and HG/Carl Macek wouldnt have cared =p.

BTW Alex: Robotech.com List you, KS and KL as the Co-authors for most of the Core Robotech books. Good Job on Thats, Now Give Me Lemuria!

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I just want to add a few things. As part of the license agreement, all text and artwork had to be approved by Harmony Gold before it went to press. This is common for all license agreements of this type.

Alex, let me state this again, so there is no misunderstanding. I place most of the blame for the lack of Southern Cross exposure on Harmony Gold's shoulders. They have been sitting on artwork and information that has only come to light in recent years. For whatever reason, probably clerical, a number of design drawings and such simply never saw the light of day. Hopefully that will change sometime in the near future.

However, the stats being as lopsided as they are I must sadly say is Palladium's fault. This is nothing that is necessarily the sole province of the RPG, so please dont take it personally. I have found maybe a handful of instances in other sources of Robotech media (other than the Tv series)where the mecha of the Southern Cross were given their due in comparison to the Macross or Mospeada designs.

[Svartalf]

Alex, let me state this again, so there is no misunderstanding. I place most of the blame for the lack of Southern Cross exposure on Harmony Gold's shoulders. They have been sitting on artwork and information that has only come to light in recent years. For whatever reason, probably clerical, a number of design drawings and such simply never saw the light of day. Hopefully that will change sometime in the near future.

However, the stats being as lopsided as they are I must sadly say is Palladium's fault. This is nothing that is necessarily the sole province of the RPG, so please dont take it personally. I have found maybe a handful of instances in other sources of Robotech media (other than the Tv series)where the mecha of the Southern Cross were given their due in comparison to the Macross or Mospeada designs.

Lack of SC exposure? in anime and derivated products, perhaps, but the RPG stuff was so made that I bought SC not because I wanted a complete collection, but because there were so many cross references to it in Invid Invasion and Sentinels that I just needed it, for my information. I previously had refrained from getting it because I disliked that art and general looks of the thing...

And I don't know what you so dislike in the stats... I find SC mecha (well, Logan, Ajax and Hovertanks) to be perfectly suitable for use in later (II/Sentinel) periods... even tweaked some of the REF to include transport ships carrying SC rather than RDF/REF designs (if the SDF 3 carried the Wolf Pack HT squad, why not other ships=

[AlexM]

Thanks for your reply. I'm not taking things personally. I'm just trying to add a bit of information. I accept the criticisms about the Southern Cross book.

One more item: Family Home Entertainment cut a few minutes from the Robotech episodes they released. Fans of the show called us and said could we please rerelease the tapes with the missing footage. We contacted FHE and signed a sub-license. We did very, very well with these tapes, but, at first, no distributor would touch them! It was word of mouth and demand by the fans that finally convinced them to carry them at all. I know what it's like to be a rabid fan, but Robotech is/was regarded as a cartoon for kids. But I'm not saying it isn't worth bringing back.

The fact is, unlike Japan, the attitude towards cartoons here as mostly kids' entertainment is the norm. It really hasn't affected what is called the mainstream. Had Gundam come out 14 years ago, for example, things might've been different. 30 years ago, building model kits was big in the U.S., but not now. The Gundam Toys being made for the U.S. market, IMO, are inferior to say, the High Complete Models once made in Japan, which approach sculpture in terms of quality.

Toy store chains and large chains like Wal-Mart want to sell toys to kids. The collectors' market for anime is still a rather underground thing now, as it was back in the late 1980s. Even New Type in English still makes reference to a foreign country and language. It's had some impact on illustration. But rabid fans would prefer to have all of their questions answered in English, all the details available in English. I remember how many times I've looked at articles that obviously talked about things that interested me written in Japanese, but this led to frustration. Had Hobby Japan been written in English and the items made easily available here, well, anyway.



Alex Marciniszyn

[Colonel Wolfe]

Lack of SC exposure? in anime and derivated products, perhaps, but the RPG stuff was so made that I bought SC not because I wanted a complete collection, but because there were so many cross references to it in Invid Invasion and Sentinels that I just needed it, for my information. I previously had refrained from getting it because I disliked that art and general looks of the thing...

And I don't know what you so dislike in the stats... I find SC mecha (well, Logan, Ajax and Hovertanks) to be perfectly suitable for use in later (II/Sentinel) periods... even tweaked some of the REF to include transport ships carrying SC rather than RDF/REF designs (if the SDF 3 carried the Wolf Pack HT squad, why not other ships=

In the RPG Canon, the Sentinels Happens before the ASC Era, Teh Alpha/beta Were in used in the Sentinesl Campainge a Full 5 years before the Masters invaded (Thou Lancer Knows nothing about them in invid invasion). by the RPG Caon, the REf left, Strip-mined the PLanet, took every decent Mecha, and said "%^%-you earth" and went to Fight a Mystery enemy (that they Failed to inform the ACS about).

Thats just dosent Stack up, the REf is mofe like Traitors then heros, they hid information, and Refused reinforcements. Waited for the new Eenmy to Invade the earth, enslave and Kill innocents before Deciding to send a few "Meger" Waves to take the earth back... then come to Blow it UP.


If the Beta was Devleoped before the REF left, the teh ACS would ahve Adopted these Designs, instead of Developing new ones.

[Svartalf]

a) I don't really care about the chronology :
since it is "RPG official" that the REF brought HTs with them, I regard it as proof that the SC stuff was already out by then, so my attitude that they could have brought some, if not made them their main equipment, remains basically correct.

b) I don't really care about the canon, as that is essentially variable with time and the whims of whoever owns the IP, I just check the material I have available, and decide what suits me in establishing my campaign, the same as I'd submit to my GM's whim if I were to be a player.

BTW, your attitude that the REF are "traitors" and bad team players stems from what I regard as snafus in the continuity line of macek's work...
It's really easy to communicate and go hopping across a whole galaxy, and to divert units from an n front war just so you can succor home base after all...

[Colonel Wolfe]

a) I don't really care about the chronology :
since it is "RPG official" that the REF brought HTs with them, I regard it as proof that the SC stuff was already out by then, so my attitude that they could have brought some, if not made them their main equipment, remains basically correct.

b) I don't really care about the canon, as that is essentially variable with time and the whims of whoever owns the IP, I just check the material I have available, and decide what suits me in establishing my campaign, the same as I'd submit to my GM's whim if I were to be a player.

BTW, your attitude that the REF are "traitors" and bad team players stems from what I regard as snafus in the continuity line of macek's work...
It's really easy to communicate and go hopping across a whole galaxy, and to divert units from an n front war just so you can succor home base after all...

I'm not Sure why you got so Rude dude, but i was Talking about RPG Offical Chonology. The REF Left in 2025, had a War with the Invid right after gettin to Tirol, Had Alpha/betas and hovertansk as there Veritech Compliment. They Could not have had Ajax as they were not Devloped until 2029. Thats Strait form the Animation.

As for bad Continuity by Macek, Damn Right it was, Everything about the Sentinels was Crap for Continuity, just Like Maceks "Untold Story" Movie. You like Many people dont gvie a damn about the Shows Canon, But some of us like our RPG's to make sense, and if they are based of an animation for the RPG to Agree with said animation as well.

I Imagine if they Made a Speed Racer RPG and the MAch 5 was a Voltswagon Beatle Peopel would have Problems with it.

But by Novel/RPG Canon, the REF did Hide information from the UEG.
The Hyperspace Transmitters Allowed the UEG to send word to the REF, the Hannible Responded. until the Masters invasion those Transmitters were up and Running, so IF tha REf was Fighting the Invid on tirol, they Forgot to Tell home base about it, Which is bad mojo.

Robotech Works Fine until you add the "Middle" Serise Sentinels and the Movie.

Edit: just watch the Serise.
oh, if yu claim 5 year fold... then the Hannible would have had to Fold about 6 months after it left to get back to earth... 2 5-year folds is 10 years.... Which Makes the Haninible not part of the Pioneer Mission/REf Like it Claims to be.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

BTW, your attitude that the REF are "traitors" and bad team players stems from what I regard as snafus in the continuity line of macek's work. It's really easy to communicate and go hopping across a whole galaxy, and to divert units from an n front war just so you can succor home base after all...

Like it or not, the Expedition was beholden to protect Earth. They failed in this respect. I'm particularly ambivalent about calling the leadership of the REF (specifically Admiral Hunter) heroes in the 3rd Robotech War. The ordered use of the Neutron-S Missiles against the Earth was a crime no matter how you slice it. The fact that they were going to vaporize their own troops still fighting at Reflex Point puts them far beyond even the 'craziest' thing Leonard was ordered to carry out in the 2nd Robotech War. How Leonard could be called a criminal and Hunter praised is asinine in the extreme.

[Colonel Wolfe]

BTW, your attitude that the REF are "traitors" and bad team players stems from what I regard as snafus in the continuity line of macek's work. It's really easy to communicate and go hopping across a whole galaxy, and to divert units from an n front war just so you can succor home base after all...

Like it or not, the Expedition was beholden to protect Earth. They failed in this respect. I'm particularly ambivalent about calling the leadership of the REF (specifically Admiral Hunter) heroes in the 3rd Robotech War. The ordered use of the Neutron-S Missiles against the Earth was a crime no matter how you slice it. The fact that they were going to vaporize their own troops still fighting at Reflex Point puts them far beyond even the 'craziest' thing Leonard was ordered to carry out in the 2nd Robotech War. How Leonard could be called a criminal and Hunter praised is asinine in the extreme.

I've compared Hunter and Leonard before on this board, got the Same reaction "Leonard is a evil bastard no matter how much proof in the Series says otherwise"

Now if you Try to Villanise the REF, your gonna get beat on the head to... Though both "time lines" Paints the REF Leadership as pretty Lacking in the Heroic Quality department.
Admiral Hunter (Rick or Lisa), Sent the REF back to Earth with the Neutron-s Missiles. these Weapons have one purpose: Destroying Planets.
you dont Bring Weapons Like that unless you Plan to use them. Then for the Captian of the Izzumo to Launch them on the Earth, While his forces were landing... Thats Totally Cold.

no Matter how you Look at it, the REF was a Far Worse Choice for the Earth compared to the Invid, Enslavement... or Annilation. I'd Rather Live as a Slave with the hope of Freedom than Die at the hands of people who were Supposed to Protect you.

now, you can Say, oh, the Regsis destroyed the Weapons before they could be Used... not really, they were Launched Before her Energy-Attack/Escape. Had She been Killed by the Land Forces, the Earths Destruction was Assured.

The only Reason i could See Leonard being a Villan compared to the REF... he Fought to Save the Planet, When the REF wanted it Destroyed.

[Jefffar]

Hey folks, this discussion is starting to get a little ehated and to wander off topic. I don't mind us talking about where a Palaldium Product could ahve been improved, but when we start debatign justifications for the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction and genocide in a non-fictional context I think we've run rather far afield.


Go to your corners, take a drink of water, and come back out at the sound of the bell.




DING!

[AlexM]

BTW, your attitude that the REF are "traitors" and bad team players stems from what I regard as snafus in the continuity line of macek's work. It's really easy to communicate and go hopping across a whole galaxy, and to divert units from an n front war just so you can succor home base after all...

Like it or not, the Expedition was beholden to protect Earth. They failed in this respect. I'm particularly ambivalent about calling the leadership of the REF (specifically Admiral Hunter) heroes in the 3rd Robotech War. The ordered use of the Neutron-S Missiles against the Earth was a crime no matter how you slice it. The fact that they were going to vaporize their own troops still fighting at Reflex Point puts them far beyond even the 'craziest' thing Leonard was ordered to carry out in the 2nd Robotech War. How Leonard could be called a criminal and Hunter praised is asinine in the extreme.

Please read some real world military history. You will find it not unusual to have artillery or air strikes purposely called in on positions where your own men will be killed. This occurred in World War II and Vietnam.


Alex Marciniszyn

[Colonel Wolfe]

Hey folks, this discussion is starting to get a little ehated and to wander off topic. I don't mind us talking about where a Palaldium Product could ahve been improved, but when we start debatign justifications for the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction and genocide in a non-fictional context I think we've run rather far afield.


Go to your corners, take a drink of water, and come back out at the sound of the bell.




DING!

Just was heating up , and Jeff has to go and Neutron-s the Thread!!

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Please read some real world military history. You will find it not unusual to have artillery or air strikes purposely called in on positions where your own men will be killed. This occurred in World War II and Vietnam.

Heh, Alex, I have a degree in History with a specialization in modern military history. I know this kind of thing has happened and will continue to happen. What I find distasteful is that people can defend Hunter's ordering the planet obliterated and still praise him as a hero while General Leonard is following the orders given him by the Prime Minister of the UEG, but he is portrayed as a villain.

Anyway...this is beside the topic point.