Another Tattoo Question

[Dr. Doom III]

You get the Undead Slayers base MDC plus the bonus MDC per tattoo. Hit Points and normal SDC do not become MDC. They are just gone.

[Athos]

Are you talking about SDC from skills like boxing or body building?

If so, then I don't know of any rule one way or the other for MDC beings. If you look at NPCs they generally do not get MDC points for SDC skills. So if you think the NPCs in the book are canon, which most people find reason to argue they are not, then go with that.

My house rule is that MDC beings gain points from skills like boxing, since logically they would be more able to defend themselves than another similar creature without boxing.

Whatever works in your world, either way though, your numbers look really, really high.

[sinestus]

i've always gone doom's method on this one

pretty sure in the tattoo section somewhere is says just that
when you become MDC, all your former SDC stuff is gone...

and physical skills would not add to it, as it's a magical MDC not a natural MDC... (i'd say, add up all the totals for sklls and racial stuff for his sdc HP stats, and keep 'em handy for if he ever vists an SDC world.... but otherwise ignore their existance)

[sinestus]

check under the actual classes themselves...

i'll see if i can lay hands on my copy one of these days and check myself...

[Nekira Sudacne]

you DO NOT add SDC to tattoed men's calculations.

you get the base of the class, for the Slayer 2d4*10. +11 MDC per tatto for males or +13 MDC per tatto for femeles.

The SDC and HP does not factor in in any way, size, shape or form.

[sinestus]

doesn't it state "ay X tattoos, the character becomes an MDC creatuer with MDC of ... bla bla bla... " at some point?
does that clause mention adding their base HP/SDC?

[Dr. Doom III]

You get the Undead Slayers base MDC plus the bonus MDC per tattoo. Hit Points and normal SDC do not become MDC. They are just gone.

not gone, coverted to mdc.

Which in my mind would allow for the physical skills and racial bonuses and any other SDC bonuses to be added to their overall MDC. But in my case, My GM is telling me I get the SDC total plus the 2d4*10+60 added to my Undead slayer, in addition to the +10MDC/level +MDC from new tattoos + 1d6 SDC Converted to MDC. I told him that this is just nutz. This way any Undead slayer can get a maximum of 38 extra MDC/level for a guy, 42 for a girl character, plus any extras from any physical skills they take. (if they roll a 6 for the SDC, + 11/13 per tattoos 1 power/monster/magic weapon or 2 simple weapon/animal) I told him that if that is what he wasts, I'm more than happy to be a tank with almost 1000 MDC, but I just thought that it was INSANE. I'm looking for specific rules to refute him (weird having a player argue in favor of the GM and vic-a-versa.)

Hit Points and normal SDC do not become MDC.

[Dr. Doom III]

Hit Points and normal SDC do not become MDC.

Where is this in black and white?

Where is says MDC for Undead Slayers. No mention of adding anything but MDC per tattoo.

[Dr. Doom III]

Um, that is gray. It doesn't say it doesn't. It only says they have a BASE MDC of 2d4*10+60. and +11/tattoo for men, +13/tattoo for wemon.

What I'm looking for is something that says "MDC Creatures do not benifet from any physical skills that increase SDC."

My reasoning for this is that the physical skills increase SDC creatures physical toughness, so wouldn't the MDC creatures benifet as well?

Ironically I never weighed in on that question.
They do get physical skill SDC as MDC as far as I am concerned everyone who can take the skills can.

They just don't get their hit points and base SDC changed.

[Nekira Sudacne]

because if they did then I should get 3d6 MDC for boxing and not 3d6 SDC.


sorry, only N&SS style Body Hardening exersices give MDC

[Dr. Doom III]

because if they did then I should get 3d6 MDC for boxing and not 3d6 SDC.


sorry, only N&SS style Body Hardening exersices give MDC

An SDC creature gets SDC and an MDC creature gets MDC.
The body still gets toughened up through training.

Oh and MDC creatures cannot use mystic martial arts.

[Dr. Doom III]

Is there anywhere that says this in B&W?

Nope.
Hence "as far as I am concerned".

[sinestus]

[
What I'm looking for is something that says "MDC Creatures do not benifet from any physical skills that increase SDC."

My reasoning for this is that the physical skills increase SDC creatures physical toughness, so wouldn't the MDC creatures benifet as well?

if the MDC were natural, i'd agreee on this

but it's not

it's side FX from the tatoos...

it like saying someone with APS: Steel should get all their physical skills SDC added to their transformed states' MDC/SDC
but they don't

and thus,
when the tatoo man is turned into MDC, he doesn't get any bonii from training.
(anyways, the physical training prolly happened before, not after the MDC granting tattoos were added...)

[sinestus]

it's not a natural phenomenon...


ok... simpler concept...

borgs...

robots don't get bonus MDC for physical skills...
because their MDC state is induced by non-natural means...


blocking the T-man's PPE to the point that it builds up and he turns MDC sure as heck ain't natural...
thus same basic idea...
it's more of, the tatts radiate an MDC aura around him rather than actually make him MDC... kinda like a permenant Armor of Ithan effect...


then, atop all that,
same as with the borg,
the t-man prolly went through the physical training to gain the skills before getting the MDC... (the tats being a "reward" for being a fine slave or soldier)
so you can't argue that more MDC would develope as a result of the training at MDC levels.. the training and FX are already done... you don't retroactively apply boni...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Except it says that the tattoos transform them into supernatural beings, hence the SN strength and MDC vs SDC. In a sense, It is natural, When I rolled up the character, My GM told me to roll up the SDC (including the 3 physical skill from the OCC and the racial bonus of the true atlantian.) The SDC is almost the same amount as the 2d4*10+60 it states in the MDC section of the undead slayer. This is what lead me to believe that the physical skill would increase the MDC. because essecentialy it says they become MDC creatures.

they do, but they don't help becuase SN creatures can't toughen up the way normal ones do really.

oh, and T-men DO NOT get Supernatural sterngth. they need to use the chain with broken link tatto to gain supernatural strength, or else aquire it by other means that grant it, such as bio-wizard transformation or such.

they can't do MD on their own.

[Dr. Doom III]

they do, but they don't help becuase SN creatures can't toughen up the way normal ones do really.

Show me where it says that.

[sinestus]

so no SN strength?

then they're not true "supernatural" creatures,

it's still a side FX...

i think the mention that they become it is to clarify that they can be targeted and suffer the ill fx of stuff that specifically targets SN creatures...

generally, when skills SDC applies, it mentiones it specificalls (like SDC is equal to d4x10 plus any gained from physical skills)

show me somewhere where there's an MDC listing like that and i'll believe the T-man deserves it...

otherwise, they've already got enough MDC as it is, they don't need more...

when are you guys gona realize you don't need 3 to 4 digits in your MDC scores to be playable...

[Dr. Doom III]

so no SN strength?

then they're not true "supernatural" creatures,

it's still a side FX...

i think the mention that they become it is to clarify that they can be targeted and suffer the ill fx of stuff that specifically targets SN creatures...

generally, when skills SDC applies, it mentiones it specificalls (like SDC is equal to d4x10 plus any gained from physical skills)

show me somewhere where there's an MDC listing like that and i'll believe the T-man deserves it...

otherwise, they've already got enough MDC as it is, they don't need more...

when are you guys gona realize you don't need 3 to 4 digits in your MDC scores to be playable...

They become supernatural creatures. Which gives them supernatural strength. The tattoo that gives supernatural strength is only usable in that fashion for people with six or less tattoos. If you have more you still get the bonus six points.

[Nekira Sudacne]

they do, but they don't help becuase SN creatures can't toughen up the way normal ones do really.

Show me where it says that.

show me where it says they gain supernatural strenght.

for that matter, show me where T-men become supernatural?

it says only Undead Slayers become supernatural, and they don't gain Supernatural strenght, only MDC

[Dr. Doom III]

show me where it says they gain supernatural strenght.

for that matter, show me where T-men become supernatural?

it says only Undead Slayers become supernatural, and they don't gain Supernatural strenght, only MDC

It says they become supernatural creatures. Show me a Supernatural creature without supernatural strength along with where it says supernatural creatures can't toughen up the way normal ones do.

Who is talking about T-men? This thread is about Undead Slayers.

[Nekira Sudacne]

show me where it says they gain supernatural strenght.

for that matter, show me where T-men become supernatural?

it says only Undead Slayers become supernatural, and they don't gain Supernatural strenght, only MDC

It says they become supernatural creatures. Show me a Supernatural creature without supernatural strength along with where it says supernatural creatures can't toughen up the way normal ones do.

Who is talking about T-men? This thread is about Undead Slayers.

show me where it says that Paired Weapons dosn't let you shoot two guns at the same time

some things are just a given doom.

it dosn't say that Undead Slayers gain supernatural strenght therefore they do not. they need teh Chain with broken link tatto. that's why THEY ALL START WITH IT.

[Dr. Doom III]

show me where it says that Paired Weapons dosn't let you shoot two guns at the same time

I have. Many times.

some things are just a given doom.

Such as supernatural creatures having supernatural strength.

it doesn’t say that Undead Slayers gain supernatural strength therefore they do not. they need the Chain with broken link tattoo. that's why THEY ALL START WITH IT.

They get the extra 6 points of strength. It still makes them stronger.

[wicked1]

For what its worth, this is out of the old FAQ.


Questio: My question deals with physical skills. I know that the SDC bonus only counts towards SDC beings, but what if the MDC being was trained in a place with MDC workout materials? What if a MDC being goes to Atlantis and trains in a MDC equivalent of a Bally's or something, would the SDC bonus count towards MDC beings as a MDC bonus then? I mean there has got to be places that MDC beings can workout too, most of Rifts Earth has MDC beings on it.

Answer: This would be an option for the individual GM. The standard rule though is that M.D.C. being do not gain M.D.C. bonuses from physical skills. They do though gain the other bonuses from physical skills

[sinestus]

blaaaa


can't we let this one die already?

[Dr. Doom III]

blaaaa


can't we let this one die already?

BAH!

We have barely started.
20 pages at least.

[Vrykolas2k]

For what its worth, this is out of the old FAQ.


Questio: My question deals with physical skills. I know that the SDC bonus only counts towards SDC beings, but what if the MDC being was trained in a place with MDC workout materials? What if a MDC being goes to Atlantis and trains in a MDC equivalent of a Bally's or something, would the SDC bonus count towards MDC beings as a MDC bonus then? I mean there has got to be places that MDC beings can workout too, most of Rifts Earth has MDC beings on it.

Answer: This would be an option for the individual GM. The standard rule though is that M.D.C. being do not gain M.D.C. bonuses from physical skills. They do though gain the other bonuses from physical skills

nice, I actually agree with that.

part of the confusion was that it was never spelled out.

look what it takes to heal an MDC creature via magic spells. So does a MDC mind melter just not get to choose any "self-healing" if his RCC doesn't happen to regen? guess so. it sucks though.

sometimes the writer/editor team seems like they don't play the game (or even consider what's possible) for a GM.

Think their MDC is supposed to heal at the rate SDC would if they still had that... think I read that somewhere...

[Svartalf]

show me where it says they gain supernatural strenght.

for that matter, show me where T-men become supernatural?

it says only Undead Slayers become supernatural, and they don't gain Supernatural strenght, only MDC

It says they become supernatural creatures. Show me a Supernatural creature without supernatural strength along with where it says supernatural creatures can't toughen up the way normal ones do.

Who is talking about T-men? This thread is about Undead Slayers.

Sorry... but unless they had it before being tattooed, T men and Undead slayer only have soupie strength when activatin their "Broken linked Chain" tattoo... the rest of the time, their muscle power is quite ordinary.

[Svartalf]

they do, but they don't help becuase SN creatures can't toughen up the way normal ones do really.

Show me where it says that.

the very fact that it is the "broken chain" tattoo that mentions supernatural strength, rather than the general section about magic tattoos or the individual OCC sections...

[Vrykolas2k]

In addition, only the undead slayer is supernatural. I would have to agree with doom that they have SN strength. It is just the natural assumption, because it is logical. If they were not ment to have SN strength, I'd expect it to say so. IMO, the chain with the broken link gives the SN strength for the T-man and Maxi man so that they are capable of fighting othes similar to them.

No.
Wwre-beasts are supies, and yet... they do not have SN PS.
Either an over-sight or an exception.

[Svartalf]

neither... while it is true that most supernatural creatures are supernaturally strong, this is not necessarily the case for one who is *turned* into one.

ALL T Men are made supernatural, but strength (without activation of the proper tattoo) just isn't part of the package.

It's the same with the Mega Juicer... they are supernatural, (MDC and powerful), but their strength is still not supernatural.

[Vrykolas2k]

neither... while it is true that most supernatural creatures are supernaturally strong, this is not necessarily the case for one who is *turned* into one.

ALL T Men are made supernatural, but strength (without activation of the proper tattoo) just isn't part of the package.

It's the same with the Mega Juicer... they are supernatural, (MDC and powerful), but their strength is still not supernatural.

They have supernatural PS tho...

[Dr. Doom III]

Sorry... but unless they had it before being tattooed, T men and Undead slayer only have soupie strength when activatin their "Broken linked Chain" tattoo... the rest of the time, their muscle power is quite ordinary.

Only undead Slayers become supernatural.
The heart with broken chain gives supernatural strength to those who don't have it already. Those who do like Chang-ku Dragons and Undead Slayers just get the bonus six PS points.

(That's the third time I said that.)

Werebeasts have supernatural strength (look at their damage) and Mega Juicers are minor supernatural creatures. Undead Slayers are not minor.

Rifts England Pg 109
Sir Galahad an Undead Slayer is listed as having under bonuses a +7 to MD damage.
In the days before the advent of the supernatural strength chart that was his SDC damage bonus for his listed strength of 22 turned to an MD bonus. That does not include the six more points he would get if he activated his Supernatural strength tattoo so it could not be using it.

Case Closed.

[Vrykolas2k]

Sorry... but unless they had it before being tattooed, T men and Undead slayer only have soupie strength when activatin their "Broken linked Chain" tattoo... the rest of the time, their muscle power is quite ordinary.

Only undead Slayers become supernatural.
The heart with broken chain gives supernatural strength to those who don't have it already. Those who do like Chang-ku Dragons and Undead Slayers just get the bonus six PS points.

(That's the third time I said that.)

Werebeasts have supernatural strength (look at their damage) and Mega Juicers are minor supernatural creatures. Undead Slayers are not minor.

Rifts England Pg 109
Sir Galahad an Undead Slayer is listed as having under bonuses a +7 to MD damage.
In the days before the invent of the supernatural strength chart that was his SDC damage bonus for his listed strength of 22 turned to an MD bonus. That does not include the six more points he would get if he activated his Supernatural strength tattoo so it could not be using it.

Case Closed.

No, were-beasts are said in black and white to not have spurnatural PS in the Conversion Book, their damage is nothing like supernatural PS.

[Dr. Doom III]

No, were-beasts are said in black and white to not have spurnatural PS in the Conversion Book, their damage is nothing like supernatural PS.

I just looked them up. It doesn't say in black and white either way but the do MD with attacks when transformed. That means supernatural PS.

Unless they are robots.

Besides the Undead Slayer Supernatural PS debate is over.

[Svartalf]

Excuse me... but where does it say that Undead Slayers are supernatural in a different way than other T men, and that they have SN strength whereas the others don't?

This making of distinctions looks perfectly senseless to me. ALL Tmen come from races that don't have SN strength, to boot Maxi men tend to have more tattoos than U Ss... so granting a certain status and advantage to the latter and not the rest seems to me like unfairly favoring one OCC... and pure house ruling.

[Dr. Doom III]

Excuse me... but where does it say that Undead Slayers are supernatural in a different way than other T men, and that they have SN strength whereas the others don't?

This making of distinctions looks perfectly senseless to me. ALL Tmen come from races that don't have SN strength, to boot Maxi men tend to have more tattoos than U Ss... so granting a certain status and advantage to the latter and not the rest seems to me like unfairly favoring one OCC... and pure house ruling.

It only says it for the Undead Slayer.
Purely speculating it could have something to do with the already magic saturated nature of True Atlantians.

[Rex]

I just was looking at the Lanotaur Hunter in Psyscape. They're MDC creatures and at 5th level they get Bio-Regen (Super) which only mentions SDC, so...

This is what is so annoying about my Rifts being on the other side of the planet...

I think it states in the GMG that MDC creatures do get a reduced benefit from powers like Bio-regeneration. If it states a specific amount of Hit Points, not SDC, are recovered that is the amount they would recieve in MDC.

[Svartalf]

Right. It does say there that Undead slayers are regarded as supenatural creatures, which is not the case for other T man varieties.

the passage I was thinking of only describes them as "superhumans", not as supernatural creatures.

However, I notice that in most every case when a creature has SN strength (or other attribute), this is specifically noted, which is not the case for undead slayers. they don't even have a PS bonus, as opposed to, say, Maxi Men.
I believe that their "supernatural" status applies more to the effect on them of various magic effects and weapons, which do enhanced effect on supernatural or evil supernatural creatures, rather than meaning that they have SN strength.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Sorry... but unless they had it before being tattooed, T men and Undead slayer only have soupie strength when activatin their "Broken linked Chain" tattoo... the rest of the time, their muscle power is quite ordinary.

Only undead Slayers become supernatural.
The heart with broken chain gives supernatural strength to those who don't have it already. Those who do like Chang-ku Dragons and Undead Slayers just get the bonus six PS points.

(That's the third time I said that.)

Werebeasts have supernatural strength (look at their damage) and Mega Juicers are minor supernatural creatures. Undead Slayers are not minor.

Rifts England Pg 109
Sir Galahad an Undead Slayer is listed as having under bonuses a +7 to MD damage.
In the days before the advent of the supernatural strength chart that was his SDC damage bonus for his listed strength of 22 turned to an MD bonus. That does not include the six more points he would get if he activated his Supernatural strength tattoo so it could not be using it.

Case Closed.

I never noticed that in Rifts England.

very well, your honor, I concede case to doom. he is right once again.

[Svartalf]

Oy vey... the Galahad reference... and I had it under my eyes all the time

I bow.

[Vrykolas2k]

No, were-beasts are said in black and white to not have spurnatural PS in the Conversion Book, their damage is nothing like supernatural PS.

I just looked them up. It doesn't say in black and white either way but the do MD with attacks when transformed. That means supernatural PS.

Unless they are robots.

Besides the Undead Slayer Supernatural PS debate is over.

With power claws and bites, but they seem to do SDC normally. That isn't in line with their PS attributes, if it's Supernatural PS...

[Dr. Doom III]

With power claws and bites, but they seem to do SDC normally. That isn't in line with their PS attributes, if it's Supernatural PS...

Claws and power bites.
SDC normally is correct. In human form. Humans don't have claws.
But also notice the damage for punches. Two to three times a normal humans punch damage.

[Dr. Doom III]

Ironically I never weighed in on that question.
They do get physical skill SDC as MDC as far as I am concerned everyone who can take the skills can.

They just don't get their hit points and base SDC changed.

Is there anywhere that says this in B&W?

An SDC creature gets SDC and an MDC creature gets MDC.
The body still gets toughened up through training.

Oh and MDC creatures cannot use mystic martial arts.

Compleatly agree with this point.

Yes it is written in black and white.
While flipping through the Phase world sourcebook for errors to be fixed in the reprinting I looked at the Warlock Marine.
MDC races who become Warlock Marines gain +4D6 MDC through training which is in addition to skill bonuses.

Doom Wins!

Doom always wins.

Is there no one on this planet who can even challenge me?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ironically I never weighed in on that question.
They do get physical skill SDC as MDC as far as I am concerned everyone who can take the skills can.

They just don't get their hit points and base SDC changed.

Is there anywhere that says this in B&W?

An SDC creature gets SDC and an MDC creature gets MDC.
The body still gets toughened up through training.

Oh and MDC creatures cannot use mystic martial arts.

Compleatly agree with this point.

Yes it is written in black and white.
While flipping through the Phase world sourcebook for errors to be fixed in the reprinting I looked at the Warlock Marine.
MDC races who become Warlock Marines gain +4D6 MDC through training which is in addition to skill bonuses.

Doom Wins!

Doom always wins.

Is there no one on this planet who can even challenge me?

I've challanged you. and the gauntlet is still down on the Paired Weapons vs paired firearms.

[Dr. Doom III]

I've challanged you. and the gauntlet is still down on the Paired Weapons vs paired firearms.

You challenged my patients but that was about it.

[Borast]

Ok folks, I may be stepping on toes here, but I stopped reading after page 1.

The Tattooed Warrior / Undead Slayer / etc receive the MDC for being what they are, and forget any SDC that they might have had.

HOWEVER, any physical skills the character takes, either in initial generation, or later due to levelling up, any SDC bonuses are added to the character's MDC base.

I can't remember which book, but this is black letter somewhere about MDC beings and Physical skills.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I did a search on tattoos trying to find an answer to a question I have, and came across this thread. Since I had just finished reading all the FAQ bits on tattoos I thought I'd provide the correct answer to you all concerning Undead Slayers and SN strength.

In the FAQ, under O.C.C. Questions it has:

159. Love the whole Mega-verse. Have been a fan since 1986. Palladium is great. Now on to my question. In the FAQ area it is stated that the P.S. of the Undead Slayer is not Supernatural. However, in the description, it is clearly stated that the Undead Slayer is considered a Supernatural Being. Why? since the P.S. isn't supernatural what are the advantages of being considered supernatural?

Answer: The magic tattoos on their skin make them supernatural, but just being classified supernatural does not grant abilities like supernatural strength. The can gain supernatural strength through the use of their magic tattoos though.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/occ.html

The Old faq was dumped for a reason, mostly because it's often wrong.

Undead Slayers do have supernatural strength AND endurance, as per Splynn Dimensional Market.

[Dr. Doom III]

Ah ok, that book is still on my wish list. I guess I should stop using the old FAQ for answers then huh

Yes.
Undead Slayers use the strength Tattoo for the extra 6 points of strength and nothing more.

[TheAngelOfDeath]

Didn’t read all the posts, but how I figure it is unless it states clearly, that SDC from your self/physical skills gets added to you MDC then it does. If not then I guess you’re out of luck.