T.S.A.W. Ver. 2.2 ASC era Mecha.

[The Artist Formerly]

Welcome students both new and familiar. I am Retired Col. Taffy. I will be instructing this class, baring any more trouble from my heart. The core of this class will cover the weapons, tactics and general performances of Mecha of the Armies of the Southern Cross and their Bioroid conterparts. Most of the mecha of the EBSIS was covered in the 2.1 section, covering the Reconstruction era.

So let's get things off on the wrong foot, and cover my second least favorite human mecha of any era, the AJACS Space Attack Helicopter.

I imagine that when the concept design teams working on the AJACS, they got really stoned. Similarly, the evaluation and approval teams must have been bombed out of their minds as well. For a helicopter to be functional, as helicopter, one needs air. Well as you might imagine, not alot of air to be found in space. That sort of renders the helicopter parts of the system useless when in space. The uh, primary enviroment of the AJACS. So the designers took one of the most complex and expensive peices of machinery ever developed by man, and added five thousand more moving parts to it, for a mode of transit in an enviroment that the AJACS wasn't built to for. This is even more assinine when you concider that the AJACS had wings, and a jet propultion system that allowed it to fly, in atmosphere, without the use of the helicopter system. Stupid doesn't begin to touch it.

As a production modle, the AJACS suffered from a number of issues. It took almost four times as many man hours to service the thing as the Veritech Fighter. It's electronics were jittery, sometimes failing at the worst moment, forcing the pilot to rely on visuals alone to fly by. Not something you want to have happen when flying through a debris pocket of Zent crap at five times the speed of sound. That electronic problem could also affect the weapons systems, most notably the pulse laser. And on occassion, the trouble prone AJACS would simply freeze half way through transformation, but unlike the Veritech Fighter, no new mod of combat capability was discovered. Instead, pilots just got dead.

Dispite all it's problems, issues and flaws the AJACS did have one major asset in it's favor that made it a standard mass produced unit of the Armies of the Southern Cross. It was that *** pirate Leonard's patronage. He thought it would be his uber-weapon against the Masters. It wasn't, but he was delussional. He sought to devest his forces anything that might be identifiable as RDF in origin. It was patently inferior to the Veritech fighter. More expensive, much much more labor intensive, lacked a Guardian mode, and lacked the versitility of the Veritech customizable weapons load out abilities.

It's weapons load out was comparable to the orginal VT's, with slightly improved payload. A pulse laser in place of the GU-11, which was a upgrade in terms of both firepower and range, when it worked. A pair of missile pods, each loaded with 8 Medium Range Missiles, and high powered laser for dog fighting in Jet/Helicopter mode or mounted over the head in Battloid mode.

The pulse laser was a advancement. A huge step forward. In and of itself, the weapon was an incredible advancement in terms of power, range and compactness. It's overall problems were relitively minor, but it needed a bit more development. The range of the weapon was an impressive 8000 feet, double the range of the Bioroid's weapon drum, blaster or laser. The damage was a bit superior to the GU-11, though not significantly. But on the uptick, as an energy weapon, it's playload was unlimited. No need to pack to extra ammo, no having to worry about your extra ammo exploding. Nice.

The forward/head laser system was similar to the old VF head lasers, only it benifited from the advancements that had been gained by the Robotechnology Development teams over the years. A range of 4000 feet gave it medium levels of reach though it's damage was a bit lacking for dog fighting purposes. Like the old VF head lasers it was patterned after, it did make for a handy tool for cutting and was a reliable backup weapon, so long as your weapons systems and supporting computers remained functional.

As I mentioned, the AJACS also carried a pair of medium range missile pods, one on each wing, and carried eight missiles.

As a unit, the AJACS sucked. Though it's frame was fundamentaly sound, and the design had potential, it was a failure as combat modle. The Veritech was superior in terms of flexibility and speed, and was just barely outgunned. The Super Veritech, the previous space superiority model out moded the AJACS in every way.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Sorry to Dissagree here Colonel, but having Flown a A.g.a.x. in Space War 2 against the Masters Forces, I believe you Opion of the system si backed up by Little fact.

As for it being a "Helicopter" The Manuvering Fans were never Deployed in Fighter Mode. These were only Present in Battilodi mode and Incressed its Manuvability by nealy 1000% when compared to the Old Vf-1 Veritechs.

The Ajax was nevere Used as a Atmospheric Fighter, The Logan and the Sphylid handled that Perfectly. The Ajax was a Suprior Space Fighter, Developed from all the Flaws the VF-1'a and Alphas Suffred form in Space. With an Over All Incresed Delta-V Capability. The Ajax was built wiht higher Technolgy, and was easily the Deadiliest Fighter Deployed by Earth forces.

buy you Mentioned no problem with Transformation, and the presence of no "intermeidate" mode. Thou not a Design feature, a Giardian mode (nicknamed by the unimformed a "Helicopter" mode) was added to later Versions as a Supliment tono Guardian mode. but was never Used b/c Guardian mode in Space is a Waste of Time.

As for Armmements:

The Ajax carried 2 Arm mounted EU-22's, a EU-22 "Nose-Laser" Used in Fighter Mode.
The Wings had 2 Hard points. Each hard point could hold a Pair of LRM's or a SRM-Multi-Ejector Rack, Containing 15 SRMs (with the ability to Launch 5 at the time)

The Southren Cross Isued to the Ajax some of its heaviest LRM's the Ragnarok Tactical Nuclear missile. With a 1 kT Yeild.

Your Opions on Supream Commander Leonard have been Noted. Unfortunatly, (for the Pilots) nearly 140 1st Era VF=1's were Deployed and Used Againsts the Bioroid Forces During the Early months of the War. The Larger Veritechs were Eaten Alive by the Bioroids, The Heavy Dependens on Missiles and the Lack of a Powerful Gun pod Made the VF-1 a Large Target for the Enemy to Maul.

I have the Feeling You'll have a Simmiler Opion about the Logan. but will Praise the Spartas Hovertank... Yet Another Uniformed Historian.

Please, Continue.

[The Artist Formerly]

Sorry to Dissagree here Colonel, but having Flown a A.g.a.x. in Space War 2 against the Masters Forces, I believe you Opion of the system si backed up by Little fact.

As for it being a "Helicopter" The Manuvering Fans were never Deployed in Fighter Mode. These were only Present in Battilodi mode and Incressed its Manuvability by nealy 1000% when compared to the Old Vf-1 Veritechs.

Helicopter blades are a liability in combat, they draw fire, not to mention being rather fragile. The helicopter system added hundreds of man hours to maintance cycle, which adds to the overall stresses the unit places on the force using it. And it is not in anyway more manuverabile then the VF Fighter, save for it's smaller body and profile.

The Ajax was nevere Used as a Atmospheric Fighter,

Part of my point. Makes having a helicopter flight system kind of redundant.

The Logan and the Sphylid handled that Perfectly. The Ajax was a Suprior Space Fighter, Developed from all the Flaws the VF-1'a and Alphas Suffred form in Space. With an Over All Incresed Delta-V Capability. The Ajax was built wiht higher Technolgy, and was easily the Deadiliest Fighter Deployed by Earth forces.

Not even remotely. The Super Veritech holds that distinction. More speed, more firepower, better avionics.

buy you Mentioned no problem with Transformation, and the presence of no "intermeidate" mode. Thou not a Design feature, a Giardian mode (nicknamed by the unimformed a "Helicopter" mode) was added to later Versions as a Supliment tono Guardian mode. but was never Used b/c Guardian mode in Space is a Waste of Time.

Right, helicopter space fighter, stupid idea.

As for Armmements:

The Ajax carried 2 Arm mounted EU-22's, a EU-22 "Nose-Laser" Used in Fighter Mode.
The Wings had 2 Hard points. Each hard point could hold a Pair of LRM's or a SRM-Multi-Ejector Rack, Containing 15 SRMs (with the ability to Launch 5 at the time)

No. A single pulse laser hard mounted the arm, though two could be issued, a head laser that doubled as it's nose gun in fighter mode and MRM missile pod hardmounted on the wing, 8 per pod. Check your ASC technical specs, Armies of the Southern Cross, page 61.

The Southren Cross Isued to the Ajax some of its heaviest LRM's the Ragnarok Tactical Nuclear missile. With a 1 kT Yeild.

Your Opions on Supream Commander Leonard have been Noted.

Oh no, that's not my opinion on Leonard, the university won't let me express my opinion on Leonard.

Unfortunatly, (for the Pilots) nearly 140 1st Era VF=1's were Deployed

and Used Againsts the Bioroid Forces During the Early months of the War. The Larger Veritechs were Eaten Alive by the Bioroids, The Heavy Dependens on Missiles and the Lack of a Powerful Gun pod Made the VF-1 a Large Target for the Enemy to Maul.

Maybe for half trained ASC kids. VTs tearing off the deck of the Promethus going nose to nose with Zentraedi Tri-thrusters, proved their abilities as space superiority fighter.

I have the Feeling You'll have a Simmiler Opion about the Logan. but will Praise the Spartas Hovertank... Yet Another Uniformed Historian.

Please, Continue.

Yeah, that's about right. Except I'm not that big a fan of the VHT.

[glitterboy2098]

Your Opions on Supream Commander Leonard have been Noted. Unfortunatly, (for the Pilots) nearly 140 1st Era VF=1's were Deployed and Used Againsts the Bioroid Forces During the Early months of the War. The Larger Veritechs were Eaten Alive by the Bioroids, The Heavy Dependens on Missiles and the Lack of a Powerful Gun pod Made the VF-1 a Large Target for the Enemy to Maul.

(Lt. Johnathan Isle speaks up)
"Having flown a Super VF both against and along side Bioroid Forces in the REF, i can tell you that a properly piloted VF-1 can defeat a bioroid force. however my studies indicate that the ASC skipped training in the older RDF mecha. this combined with the ASC's lack of combat experiance in major space operations likely made the difference. the pilots of those 140 fighters likely only had one or two hours of actual combat flight time and as we all know simulator training is only good to a point. the few RDF vetrans that remained on earth where shunted off by Leonard to the southlands, and saw little action against the masters until the final days of the war, when they no longer had the resources to put up an effective defense."

[Colonel Wolfe]

your Comments to your Alligences with Biroids makes me wonder who you work for... but the 140 VF-1 used in Feild operation were used by UEG forces that were Vetrans of the Malcontent uprisings, Many were Vertans From Space war 1.The Armies of the Southren Cross Never Trained its Forces to use Out Dated and Obsolete Technologies. The Adition of the Fastpacks Adds little to the over All Arms of the VF-1 exceptfor improved Delta-v capasity and Missiles Which the Bioroids were know for Eaisly Shoting down, as Well as the Deployment Vehichal Anti-Missile Lasers Making the Aditional Missiles a Moot point.

you say 'the few RDF vetrans that remained on earth where shunted off by Leonard to the southlands", That Is Inncorect, Leonard Being a Vetran of the WW3,the Anti-U war, and Space War 1 had nothing but the Upmost respect for the Vertans he fought along Side of, When they Volounteered to Aid in the Assault against the Master These Vetrans were allowed to do so.

But back to the Ajax, Marie Crystal (AKA IceQueen, untill the Roomer of her Relationship with Sean Phillips) Piloted the Ajax for Nearly 30 Missions Against the Master Forces and was Responsible for over 450 Confirmed Enemy Kills. Lt. Isles, The RDF Vertans you may be Thinking of who Engaged the Masters Forces at the end of the 2nd Robotech war, Were Returning REF Forces. Even These Soilder Were Piloting Alpahs and Wraiths Asgisnt the Masters Forces. Only an Idiot would Believe Out Dated (by nearly 2 decades) Technology Would Perform better than the State of the Art Technologies of the ASC.

-2nd Lt. James Wolfe (no relation), BME. Jupiter Division

[The Artist Formerly]

Just because it's new doesn't mean it's better. I'd put my money on the Veritech any day of the week.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Just because it's new doesn't mean it's better. I'd put my money on the Veritech any day of the week.

and you would Lose every day of the week to.

I Fear you have no Grasp of the Design Logic behind the Mecha of the Southren Cross era. Do you feel the Same about the Alpah in a Contest vurses the VF-1?

The Smaller more Manuverable Mecha of REF/ASC are Quite Supeior of the Veritechs of the RDF. Your Failure to Grasp this, Indicates your Mother Must have Breats fed you to age 13, or you your self are "Bombed out of your Mind" form your years of being "Really Stoned".

With your Sense of Logic... the Prop-Driven bi0wings of WW1 are the best Fighters Ever Developed.

you Fail to Grasp one Key point as well. the VF-1 was Developled to be a All-in-one Fighter/bomber/fast attack unit. it Did well in all 3 catagories. but Time Progressed and Seperate Units were Developed to cover the Individual Roles the VF-1 was used for.

Though none of the ASC Mecha were as abel to cover every Role the VF-1 Did, they each excelled at what they were Designed for. Plus, the VF-1 wasnt all that Great of a Design... Why else would the RDF design the VF-4 Lightning Before the end of Space war 1?

[Colonel Wolfe]

Helicopter blades are a liability in combat, they draw fire, not to mention being rather fragile. The helicopter system added hundreds of man hours to maintance cycle, which adds to the overall stresses the unit places on the force using it. And it is not in anyway more manuverabile then the VF Fighter, save for it's smaller body and profile.

I'll say this once more, Colonel. The Ajax is not a Helicopter. The Blades were Mainly used for Thrust for the Bataloid mod in Space. the Blades do not Trun, there is no Roatation. And Yes, the Ajax is more Manueverable than a VF-1.

The Ajax was nevere Used as a Atmospheric Fighter,

Part of my point. Makes having a helicopter flight system kind of redundant.

Okay, Colonel.... ITS not a Helecopter, never was, never Will be. I've Supplied an Animation of the Transformation Sequence of the Ajax... never do you see "Copter" Blades in Fighter Mode. http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/images/AuroranXFormSequence_ep51.gif

The Ajax was built wiht higher Technolgy, and was easily the Deadiliest Fighter Deployed by Earth forces.

Not even remotely. The Super Veritech holds that distinction. More speed, more firepower, better avionics.

Really: Your "Super" Cannot Operate in Atsmosphere, and yes your Technical Manual is inncorect. Limiting its operations to the Same place the Ajax is King. The Ajax also has a Smaller Profile, and Better onboard weaposn systems.

As for Armmements:

The Ajax carried 2 Arm mounted EU-22's, a EU-22 "Nose-Laser" Used in Fighter Mode.
The Wings had 2 Hard points. Each hard point could hold a Pair of LRM's or a SRM-Multi-Ejector Rack, Containing 15 SRMs (with the ability to Launch 5 at the time)

No. A single pulse laser hard mounted the arm, though two could be issued, a head laser that doubled as it's nose gun in fighter mode and MRM missile pod hardmounted on the wing, 8 per pod. Check your ASC technical specs, Armies of the Southern Cross, page 61.

I'm Afraid the Autor if your "Technical Specs" is inncorect, But I will not Argue This point.

Oh no, that's not my opinion on Leonard, the university won't let me express my opinion on Leonard.

Please, do express it, Remember, Loenard hard ball tactics against the Masters saved the Earth from Destruction... unlike Hunter Who Sent the SDF-4 to Destroy the Planet.

Maybe for half trained ASC kids. VTs tearing off the deck of the Promethus going nose to nose with Zentraedi Tri-thrusters, proved their abilities as space superiority fighter.

ah yes... Old technology Fighting against a Foe a Quarter the Threat the Master Were.... Proves they were Good against the Zentradi, but all bets are off against the Masters in a Simmiler confrontation.

Yet Another Uniformed Historian.

Please, Continue.

Yeah, that's about right.

sounds More like you Read your Facts in a book, Rather than experincing Actual Combat, We call your Type an "Arm Chair Historian".

[The Artist Formerly]

Good day class. Park it.

Moving on to the ASC's biggest success in Mecha development, we have the Tactical Corps' Recon Battloid. Probably the finest battloid ever produced on earth. The TCRB is the standard by which all future Battloid and similar ground units were judged. Light weight by mecha standards, well armed, solid armor and improved sensors. All of the lessons learned from the Gladiator, lighter destroids that followed it, the Veritech's Battloid mode, the Light Insurgence Battloid, and a serious dose of inspiration helped make the Recon one of the most serious threats an enemy commander could face on the ground. The Russians wanted to avoid tangling with the VHTs, but they were afraid of the Recon.

The TCRB had a wildly successful movement profile, allowing to go places where other ground bound mecha couldn't and at a time when air borne mecha were in short supply. The Recon could navigate city streets, dense jungles, Zentraedi blast craters all with equal ease. Jump jet capability meant that there were many places where other mecha would have been stopped cold, but the Recon could continue on it's mission. Similarly, the jump jets allowed the TCRB to easily be adapted to space or underwater use. Truely an all enviromental modle. A top speed of 90 mph gave the unit the ability to either out run or keep up with most other mecha units. Granted the Bravo Pappa still had an serious speed edge, but by the time the ASC mecha production hit it's stride, most of the remaining Zents had taken to ducking and covering, most of their power spent.

The TCRB could have carried a bit more armor. The units built in the final testing stages did pack about 20% more armor around the core of the machine and a few of the more vital areas. Some have argued, effectively that Leonard, fearing his own soldiers, had the TC stunted a bit to give his private police force, the thugs of the GMPs an edge should earth Mecha ever come into conflict with one another. It's also been argued that trimming the cost of the design was the motive behind this effort. While I would be the first to admith that Leonard was a control freak with serious issues, the man wasn't a coward. I would say that cost was the deciding factor, with the armor advantage given to the GiMPs as just something that would have worked out to be a bonus. Had treason, well beyond his own, been such an issue for Leonard, he would have simply outfitted his GiMPS with them as well.

It is important to note that not only do the TC Recons found here in New Monument and old New York have the improved weapons and armor package, but that many of the recovered TC Recons used by the bandit king and petty dicators across the world take advantage of similar upgrades.

In the field, as part of a mecha unit, the TC would often find itself in the role of the scout sniper. The inheirant stealth, enhanced sensors and manuverabilty of the unit, coupled with the potent EU-11 energy rifle made it a natural for this role. TCRBs used in such a fashion were often deployed in pairs. One acting as a spotter, the other as the sniper. About the time the enemy zeroed in on the sniper, his spotter would open up, giving the other TCRB a chance to slip away. A pair of pilots who were familiar with their surrondings could easily repeat this attack again and again whittling down the opposition, often without the enemy ever being able to fire a single meaningful shot in response.

For weapons, the standard Recon Battloid carried two enegy systems. A set of high powered, medium range twin linked head lasers, an idea borrowed from the Veritech Fighter's battloid and then improved on. The lasers could deliver significant damage up to four thousand feet out. That's outstanding when you concider that the head guns were a secondary weapon system.

For it's primary weapon system, the Tacitical Corps Recon Battloid packed the EU-11 gun pod. A fantastic energy weapon. One I wish we'd had in our arsenal sooner. Capable of hitting a target over a mile distant, the EU-11 max range is concidered 6000 feet. However there are a number of stories, fairly reliable at that, of it reaching out to sixty six hundred and even as far out as seven thousand feet. Damage was impressive, and a single well placed shot could easily cripple a standard Battle Pod. It's easy to see why the ASC's opponets could feel a sense of dread when a equiped TC Recon took the field.

Modifications to the TC Recon became a pretty standard affair in the invasion time period. Being such a survivable machine, and the fact that so many were out in the field during the last days of the second Robotech war helped keep them in play even after the ASC stopped existing. Most mods add a bit more armor, five to ten percent in most cases, and equip a light anti-personel weapon, such as a 12.7mm (50 cal.) machine gun to the mix. Great for shaking down merchants or diswading invid sympathizers without having to kill someone. Good for killing people too. Both Freedom fighters and bandit kings alike used the mods. Wealthier communities and groups would often add a pair of Short range missiles to the back of the forearm of the Recon's off hand in a similar fashion to what one would find on the VR-52 Battler Cyclone. The targeting computer of the Recon had no trouble with the added work load, and the TCRB made an ideal unit to carry such a weapon. Most of the these mods can be made without any significant change to the unit's basic nature or attributes. It's that well built.

The Recon Battloid had almost no significant flaws. It's improved sensors gave it ample warning about the locations of incoming threats, and it could often out run or atleast out manuver it's opponets when push came to shove. It's weapons systems would let it reach out and hit at ranges that were often unanswerable. With such a small profile and light weight, it could often move to positions allowing it to make the most of the other two strengths.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Colonel Taffy,

If you are here to Teach a Class on MEcha Design, Please Refrain form Slanderous Remarks about the Command Staff of the UEF. If you want to Sell this Class as a "Mecha 101" for younger People joining us, your Conspiercy Theories about Supream Commander Leonard and his Command staff Imply this is the Offical Stance of the University. And Could set the Ground Work for your Dismissal.

[The Artist Formerly]

Colonel Taffy,

If you are here to Teach a Class on MEcha Design, Please Refrain form Slanderous Remarks about the Command Staff of the UEF. If you want to Sell this Class as a "Mecha 101" for younger People joining us, your Conspiercy Theories about Supream Commander Leonard and his Command staff Imply this is the Offical Stance of the University. And Could set the Ground Work for your Dismissal.

Eh. I got tenure and Leonard is one of the most hated commanders ever inflicted apon the common soldier. I ain't worried.

[Colonel Wolfe]

(OOC: Sorry if people may be offended by the posts I have Made, but it was an Established Idea by T.A.F. he was playing a Character, and My remarks were an IC response to his.

Thanks to his Nasty PM, I know no the Thread is about "Palladium" only Mecha designs, a Fact TAF forgot to State in the Opening of the Thread, My Ignorance of this fact makes me the Villain. I apologize)

[The Artist Formerly]

Oh come on, that wasn't even remotely nasty. Trust me, I can do nasty.

[Colonel Wolfe]

(OOC: I Felt you used an Abusive Tone in your PM, you opend with Accusations and Threats. Please Drop The Subject.)

[Lt. Holmes]

Oh come on, that wasn't even remotely nasty. Trust me, I can do nasty.

I think I speak for the class when I say that we'd prefer you do the mecha

Batteries for voice-to-print units still last about six seconds, so we gotta make use of the charge while we got it.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

(occ: Just some info first, Im not using the Palladium entry as its badly flawed. Second, when I refer to the ground forces as the Army of the Southern Cross, that is intentional. There has been discussion for a while among some of the hardcore fans of the distinction between the Tactial Air Force (which includes the Tactical Space Corps, Tactical Armored Space Corps and Cosmic Units) and the ASC. Instead of using the OSM force chart verbatim, in this case the UEF is made of the Army of the Southern Cross and the Tactical Air Force.)

Colonel Taffy,

I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken on a number of points. I must concur with Colonel Wolfe on your bias and your lack of proper information.

We will take each point and disect it. I apologize for doing this in your class, but my specialty field of military history is the Southern Cross-era.

For a helicopter to be functional, as helicopter, one needs air.

This is true, excepting for a moment that the Colonel has forgotten that the Ajax was not assigned to the member of the Tactical Armored Space Corps for its Helicopter Configuration. The Fighter Configuration, as used in space, bears little resemblance in many cases to an actual helicopter.

The uh, primary enviroment of the AJACS.

Not by design but by circumstance. Had they been deployed against the demobilized Zentraedi or EBSIS mechanized units prior to the 2nd Robotech War, we could say the reverse was true.

So the designers took one of the most complex and expensive peices of machinery ever developed by man, and added five thousand more moving parts to it, for a mode of transit in an enviroment that the AJACS wasn't built to for.

While the Ajax is the most complex of the Veritech mecha designed during this period (from the VF-1 Valkyrie to the VF/B-9 Beta), I believe that the addition of 5000 extra moving parts is a bit of a stretch.

This is even more assinine when you concider that the AJACS had wings, and a jet propultion system that allowed it to fly, in atmosphere, without the use of the helicopter system. Stupid doesn't begin to touch it.

Again, Colonel, your information is sadly mistaken. The Ajax was not designed primarily to use the Fighter Configuration in Atmospheric Operations. While it had a modest speed for its Fighter Configuration, it was not the primary Atmospheric Combat Fighter. That job fell to the VF-7 Sylphide which was shown to be far superior in this case to its ancestor the VF-1 Valkyrie. The use by the Tactical Air Force of the Ajax was that of close-air-support for the troops of the Army of the Southern Cross.

As a production model, the AJACS suffered from a number of issues. It took almost four times as many man hours to service the thing as the Veritech Fighter.

I believe the Colonel is engaging in a bit of political chicanery. If we added the man hours that it took a TSC maintenance team to service the Ajax and the same TAF team, then yes, it does appear that we have 4x as many man hours. I am not disputing that the Ajax was a complex machine, but that goes with the territory. The logistics system of the United Earth Forces during the 2nd Robotech War was hardly strained to the breaking point.

It's electronics were jittery, sometimes failing at the worst moment, forcing the pilot to rely on visuals alone to fly by.

Baseless accusations. This line of reasoning is entirely untrue and unproveable. We know for a fact from footage of that era as well as the after action reports of the notable Marie Crystal that the Ajax worked as it was supposed to under those conditions. The VF-X-10 Demonstrator did show this problem when it was first introduced after the deployment of the Pioneer Mission in 2023, but the YVF-10 Auroran and subsequent VF/H-10 Ajax design teams had overcome this problem. I believe the Colonel has been reading too much of that discredited hack Rawlins.

And on occassion, the trouble prone AJACS would simply freeze half way through transformation, but unlike the Veritech Fighter, no new mod of combat capability was discovered.

Colonel, this is simply untrue. The problems were with the VF-X-10 Demonstrator, not the Ajax.

He thought it would be his uber-weapon against the Masters. It wasn't, but he was delussional. He sought to devest his forces anything that might be identifiable as RDF in origin

Here your reliance on Rawlins' screed shows through, Colonel. First of all, the 30 YVF-10 Auroran's assigned to the Tactical Armored Space Corps had already finished all excercises and been cleared for production when the Robotech Masters sent their initial reconnaisance forces into attack Space Station Liberty, Moon Base Luna and Lunar Space Station TS 25. The approval by the Senate and Prime Minister was hurriedly put through the budget in an emergency session.

As for the idea that Supreme Commander Leonard attempted to divest his forces of anything that smacked of the older UEF of the Macross-era, this is patently and rashly stupid. The simple fact is that the Army of the Southern Cross WAS the UEF Army. The same UEF Army that had prevailed with its Destroids during the final days of the Anti-Unification War and the 1st Robotech War. After the victory of Task Force Southern Cross over the Scavengers (the last major Malcontent band) in 2019, the UEG announced the name change from UEF Army to Army of the Southern Cross. This also had to do with the fact that the Pioneer Expedition's leadership erroneously believed Tirol's star system was one of the constellation Southern Cross.

Really Colonel, Rawlins was a dedicated Anti-Unification supporter after his apparent breakdown at the end of 2016. The fact is that Rawlins and Leonard were very competetive. Rawlins didn't like it when he was passed over for command of the 21st Mechanized Brigade (Rapid Deployment) at the tail end of the Anti-Unification War. Never mind the fact that Rawlins wasn't qualified as was later shown when his records were declassified after the Invid Occupation.

Rawlins attempted, in his twilight years, during the Invid Occupation to portray himself as the liberator of Africa who was holding true to the purposes of Gloval. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact that Rawlins was a dictator of the highest calibre is notable as is the fact that the so-called People's Army he commanded was an extension of the HEARTH Initiative, something Gloval vehemently opposed. Never mind the fact that HEARTH was a tool of the Neo-Communist International to destablize Africa. The fact that his supposed history book was published and read across the planet during the Occupation is a testament to just how much power the Neo-CommIntern still wielded.

It was patently inferior to the VF-1 Veritech fighter.

Come now Colonel, you're playing with words. The Ajax and the Valkyrie were designed for entirely different purposes. The FAST-Pack configured Valkyrie may have had a greater delta-v capacity than the Ajax, but we have no idea if the design team was planning on a FAST-Pack conversion for the Ajax use in space. By the time the Ajax was rolling off in its initial production, the First Space Offensive was geared up.

A pulse laser in place of the GU-11, which was a upgrade in terms of both firepower and range, when it worked. A pair of missile pods, each loaded with 8 Medium Range Missiles, and high powered laser for dog fighting in Jet/Helicopter mode or mounted over the head in Battloid mode.

Colonel, Im sorry, but you are mistaken about the weapons outload:

1 x twin-barreled beam cannon (mounted right, fires in all modes)
1 x single-barreled beam cannon (mounted left, fires in all modes)
1 x beam cannon in the nose (fires in Fighter and Helicopter modes)
2 x medium missile launchers with a 6 missile capacity capable of carrying: anti-ship mutli-warhead, anti-mecha multi-warhead, anti-mecha and ground attack cluster bomb

As a unit, the AJACS sucked.

Combat footage and after action analyses from the 2nd Robotech War state otherwise, Colonel.

The Veritech was superior in terms of flexibility and speed, and was just barely outgunned. The Super Veritech, the previous space superiority model out moded the AJACS in every way.

I must remind the Colonel that the Valkyrie and Ajax were designed for entirely different jobs. Comparisons of this kind are pointless. A better comparison is the VF-7 Sylphide to the VF-1 Valkyrie since they were designed for the same combat profiles.

Not even remotely. The Super Veritech holds that distinction. More speed, more firepower, better avionics.

Hardly Colonel. If we are going simply on speed and destructive capacity, then the SF/A-7 Chimera wins hands down. Capable of loading 9 long range-nuclear/reflex stand-off missiles as well as a top atmospheric speed of 6432kph at 45km and a 12.5kps delta-v capacity, it outguns and is faster than the FAST-Pack converted Valkyrie. It is also outfitted with far superior avionics than the VF-1, given that it was designed more than a decade and a half after the Valkyrie.

No. A single pulse laser hard mounted the arm, though two could be issued, a head laser that doubled as it's nose gun in fighter mode and MRM missile pod hardmounted on the wing, 8 per pod. Check your ASC technical specs, Armies of the Southern Cross, page 61.

As noted before, this book was influenced by Rawlins and his vehement hatred of Supreme Commander Leonard. I'm sorry, but this information in this book has been refuted numerous times. Please rewatch the combat footage of the Ajax and you will clearly see a twin-barreled beam cannon on the right/arm and a single-barreled beam cannon on the left/arm. There are pictures too numerous to show of them firing at the same time.

(OOC: I'll email ya a couple after Im done. No one on the net has them as Ive looked.)

Now to Lt. Isle's accusations....

Having flown a Super VF both against and along side Bioroid Forces in the REF, i can tell you that a properly piloted VF-1 can defeat a bioroid force.

While there were Pioneer Mission/REF forces that fought the Masters during the 2nd Robotech War, the idea that they had encountered the Masters before their arrival over Earth in 2029 is preposterous. As for the capabilities of the FAST-Pack converted Valkyrie, I would remind the Lt. that when his units returned with Colonel Wolfe as part of Transport Squadron 85, the Masters protoculture supplies were failing. We had pounded their logistics system into pulp. The Bioroids of the late war period, excecpting the Bioroid Invid Fighter, were noted for being somewhat sluggish. They fell prey to missile attacks far more readily than they had earlier in the war.

The few RDF vetrans that remained on earth where shunted off by Leonard to the southlands, and saw little action against the masters until the final days of the war, when they no longer had the resources to put up an effective defense

Yet more screed from Rawlins. Really Lieutenant, the idea that the United Earth Forces were split into two competing factions is nonsense. While there can be shown to be inter-service rivalry and maybe even a case can be made that Leonard, as a ground pounder, favored the ASC brass a little more, this idea that there was a cold war within the UEF is preposterous.

[The Artist Formerly]

(occ: Just some info first, Im not using the Palladium entry as its badly flawed.

OOC.

Well then their isn't much point in continuing, now is there. This being the Palladium Games website and the Robotech forum to discuss the Robotech books as written by Palladium games. Unless someone else picks up the licence, everything else is just fan concept and/or note sheets from the production of the three various seperate sagas.

I'm using the Palladium stuff because it is relivant to the posters this board would attract. It's a common resource that all of the posters who take part in the discussions, here on this board, should have at least a passing access to. That's the point of these write ups. When I post that a weapon takes seven and a half seconds between shots, it's because of Palladium game mechanics. When I list ranges, damage values and ammo, it's because that's what the Southern Cross source book states. When I introduce a variant mecha, it because I'm using the field modifications concepts and work put forth by various Palladium authors.

It's silly for you to discard the Palladium write up and then argue against my points based on the palladium write up. Without a common point of refence, we can't communicate.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Moving on to the ASC's biggest success in Mecha development, we have the Tactical Corps' Recon Battloid.

I should remind the Colonel to use the proper terminology as the MBR-Salamander was NOT a reconnaisance mecha. You are mistaking it with the ADR-Cyclops that was fieled for the Recon units.

Probably the finest battloid ever produced on earth. The TCRB is the standard by which all future Battloid and similar ground units were judged.

Its adoption in the tens of thousands by the UEF Army (serving both the Army of the Southern Cross and to a limited extent with the Pioneer Mission) is a testament to this.

The TCRB could have carried a bit more armor.

Untrue. The heavier armored MBR-Basilisk was noted as being slower and having a less capable jump jet system than that of the Salamander.

Some have argued, effectively that Leonard, fearing his own soldiers, had the TC stunted a bit to give his private police force, the thugs of the GMPs an edge should earth Mecha ever come into conflict with one another.

This is again your reliance on that hack Rawlins, Colonel. This is simply untrue. The Global Military Police did not have a deployed Battloid. There had been talk of converting the QSR-Garm to be a piloted mecha, but it never reached anything beyond the initial refit phase.

It's also been argued that trimming the cost of the design was the motive behind this effort.

This something that would have had to have come through the UEG Senate, Colonel. Blame Stinson, Longchamps and the other members of the UEG Senate Armed Services Committe...Hell...even Prime Minister Moran. General Leonard had absolutely no control over this sort of thing.

Had treason, well beyond his own, been such an issue for Leonard, he would have simply outfitted his GiMPS with them as well.

Again, Colonel, Rawlins' accusations of treason on the part of Leonard to the UEG and UEF are based on what we now know as misinformation. Rawlins rightly points out that Leonard was in the upper echelon of the Anit-Unification League at the end of the Anti-Unification War. However, we now know from declassified documentation that he was placed there specifically by the Intel people in the UEG to topple the military hierarchy from within. He had no idea that Lt. Shawn Arnold would destroy the incomplete Antartica Grand Cannon. It was only Leonard's quick thinking that allowed Vince Grant to 'steal' the YF-1 Valkyrie Prototype and loan it to Fokker to pilot.

For it's primary weapon system, the Tacitical Corps Recon Battloid packed the EU-11 gun pod.

Colonel, you are mistaken about this. The Malcontent period Salamander carried the EPR-10 Manticore Particle Rifle, not the EPR-11 Artemis that was the standard Battloid weapon of the Spartas Hovertank. The Manticore became the standard particle rifle carried by most Battloids in the Army of the Southern Cross. It was also carried by mecha in the Pioneer Mission. In 2026, the Army of the Southern Cross began upgrading to the newer and more powerful EPR-13 Nightstalker. By the start of the 2nd Robotech War, most Salamanders in service carried the Nightstalker.

(OOC: EPR- Electron Phase Rifle, nifty Southern Cross OSM name for a Particle Beam. I try not to use EU any more...as it sounds like a coalition of nations instead of a weapon designation.)

Wealthier communities and groups would often add a pair of Short range missiles to the back of the forearm of the Recon's off hand in a similar fashion to what one would find on the VR-52 Battler Cyclone.

Not quite true, Colonel, as this modification was introduced into units of the Southern Cross at the tail end of 2029. The fact that it never was never adopted in mass has more to do with budgetary constraints over the arming of the Tactical Air Force for the Space Offensives to have begun in early 2030.

You are also forgetting that the Salamander did have x2 rocket propelled grenade launcher system in the shoulders that fired the same 60mm Tarantula that became famous for its use in the RL-6 Rocket Propelled Grenade Launcher. Though it only carried 18 of these, in comparison to the older and heavier Civil Defense Unicorn's 24, they were quite handy at times. Their use by the Salamander is overshadowed by the fact that little to no combat footage exists showing them. Most of the footage we have shows only the use of the EPR-10 Manticore or EPR-13 Nightstalker.

[Colonel Wolfe]

(occ: Just some info first, Im not using the Palladium entry as its badly flawed.

OOC.

Well then their isn't much point in continuing, now is there. This being the Palladium Games website and the Robotech forum to discuss the Robotech books as written by Palladium games. Unless someone else picks up the licence, everything else is just fan concept and/or note sheets from the production of the three various seperate sagas.

I'm using the Palladium stuff because it is relivant to the posters this board would attract. It's a common resource that all of the posters who take part in the discussions, here on this board, should have at least a passing access to. That's the point of these write ups. When I post that a weapon takes seven and a half seconds between shots, it's because of Palladium game mechanics. When I list ranges, damage values and ammo, it's because that's what the Southern Cross source book states. When I introduce a variant mecha, it because I'm using the field modifications concepts and work put forth by various Palladium authors.

It's silly for you to discard the Palladium write up and then argue against my points based on the palladium write up. Without a common point of refence, we can't communicate.

(OOC: Well, if you had Establised These Rules at the begining of your Posts We'd know better then to mess around in them, but you did not.
You know many of the peopel here use Series Relevant information, Corrected Mecha Designs and Base our Facts off What was Shown in the animation,( and Use Common sense and Physics).
But you Flame and Provoke People when they Dont obey your "Rules" for Posting. But you didnt establish This to begin with.)

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

OOC:

It's silly for you to discard the Palladium write up and then argue against my points based on the palladium write up. Without a common point of refence, we can't communicate.

Thats funny, I do seem to read alot of the Jack McKinney novels portrayal of the Southern Cross in your post.

We do have a common point of reference...as does Jack McKinney and Palladium: the Robotech Tv series. I fail to see how using information from the show is somehow detrimental to the discussion. Granted, some of the specs are from the uRRG, but then again, no one else has the delta-v listed for any mecha, even the RPG.

[The Artist Formerly]

(OOC: Well, if you had Establised These Rules at the begining of your Posts We'd know better then to mess around in them, but you did not.
You know many of the peopel here use Series Relevant information, Corrected Mecha Designs and Base our Facts off What was Shown in the animation,( and Use Common sense and Physics).
But you Flame and Provoke People when they Dont obey your "Rules" for Posting. But you didnt establish This to begin with.)

Would seem sort of selfexplainitory to me. You know, again, being the Palladium books website and all.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Guys, chill. Taffy's School of Armored Warfare has always centered around the rpg books. This edition is no different. Live with it so that we get to see TSAW 3.

(This is the First thread in this Serise I read. if you Establish rules for posting in another Thread, you should post the Same rules on the Diffrent Thread under the Same Title. I didnt know about his Rules until his PM to me, and still it was never posted on the Thread, until later)

EDIT: (it seams his Rules were never posted on the Previous Thread until sevral posts in. if you expect people to play by your Rules, inform them of the rules before you go being a Troll)

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Guys, chill. Taffy's School of Armored Warfare has always centered around the rpg books. This edition is no different. Live with it so that we get to see TSAW 3.

OOC:

Not on your life. The RPG is so full of misinformation its not funny. This is especially apparent in the Southern Cross book. Im using the Tv series as most of my source (I admit there is one or two references to things in the uRRG). The RPG is SUPPOSED to be based off the Tv series.

Besides which, Taffy is using stuff from the novels.

[The Artist Formerly]

OOC:

Thats funny, I do seem to read alot of the Jack McKinney novels portrayal of the Southern Cross in your post.

Never read them. I read one called Battle cry (Macross) another called Battlehym (Macross) and three about the Invid invasion, out of order though, starting with Metamorphisis.

I just don't like Leonard. He makes me think of Karl Prosek, only less cool.

We do have a common point of reference...as does Jack McKinney and Palladium: the Robotech Tv series. I fail to see how using information from the show is somehow detrimental to the discussion. Granted, some of the specs are from the uRRG, but then again, no one else has the delta-v listed for any mecha, even the RPG.

Not when your sources and Palladium are not in agreement. The Tech specs for the AJACS are on pages 59-61 of the Armies of the Southern Cross, Robotech Book four, Palladium books. Grabing other, non-palladium sources to argue with my calls based on Palladium's write up is just silly.

Now if you have a variant, or want to add to the discussion based on an idea you had, refitting something, using a machine in a way it wasn't designed for but allows for good use (like the TC Recon Batt as a sniper) I'm all for that kind of stuff. Or you want to put up your ideas on a AJACS or whatever only with the following modifications ..., that's cool. Adds to the atmosphere of story telling and gaming.

To tell the truth, I am much more into Wayne Breaux's ideas for Robotech then I ever was for Carl Macek's or even those of the original author/production company(s?) in Japan.

To make this thread work, I need to use a point of reference that everyone here can deal with.

[glitterboy2098]

Quote:
Having flown a Super VF both against and along side Bioroid Forces in the REF, i can tell you that a properly piloted VF-1 can defeat a bioroid force.

While there were Pioneer Mission/REF forces that fought the Masters during the 2nd Robotech War, the idea that they had encountered the Masters before their arrival over Earth in 2029 is preposterous. As for the capabilities of the FAST-Pack converted Valkyrie, I would remind the Lt. that when his units returned with Colonel Wolfe as part of Transport Squadron 85, the Masters protoculture supplies were failing. We had pounded their logistics system into pulp. The Bioroids of the late war period, excecpting the Bioroid Invid Fighter, were noted for being somewhat sluggish. They fell prey to missile attacks far more readily than they had earlier in the war.

i was not a member of the wolf pack. my experiance fighting Bioroids was against a Masters outpost during the REF's sentinals campaign. when the U.E.S. Freedom Folded in escorted by its Ikazuchi and Garfish supports, the post assumed we were rogue zentreadi intending to destroy them.
i fought alongside Bioroids of the Tyrolian and Garudan Defense units against the invid during the mop-up campaign. the second fleet, including the U.E.S. Freedom, had been assigned to root out the last known invid enclave. Tyrolian and Garudan Bioroid forces were included in agreement with the sentinals alliance, and they fought well.

you say 'the few RDF vetrans that remained on earth where shunted off by Leonard to the southlands", That Is Inncorect, Leonard Being a Vetran of the WW3,the Anti-U war, and Space War 1 had nothing but the Upmost respect for the Vertans he fought along Side of, When they Volounteered to Aid in the Assault against the Master These Vetrans were allowed to do so.

these vet's where also 40 plus years old, an age where G-forces are much harder on the body and the reflexes have slowed perceptibly. those same vetrans back in the first Robotech war might have been a match for Bioroid forces, but in their 40's, it was merely lambs to the slaughter. as for my studies, it is possible that they were based on flawed information, the REF lacked many records from that time and had to reconstruct much of the events from the memories of people who were present at the time. from interveiws with many of the surviving RDF vetrans in the southlands, many of Leonards opponents in the RDF were transfered to distant duty stations. most of those that avoided this treatment were those that learned not to "rock the boat", or supported leonards policies in regard to the RDF and ASC.

[The Artist Formerly]

Now then, everyone sit.

The CDC Light Battloid was a multipurpose design used for a great number of things beyond combat. A great many were built for construction and mining as well as Civil Defense. Though it was the combat model seen the ending days of the Second Robotech war that the unit we are most familiar with etched it's face into our collective memories.

The non-combat modles lacked the jump jets, protoculture engines, weapons package and had almost no armor to speak of aside from steel sheeting placed over certain componets to keep general debreis and FOD out of important componets, though they would stop most small arms ballistics such as the 7.62mm rounds of the AK-47 and the 5.65mm rounds of the M-16s and it's siblings.

Along those lines, these units lacked the combat level of sensors, combat and targeting computers found in the CDC model. Some specialty units carried saws, torches or drills inplace of a hand or arm, but as often as not, they simply carried the nessicarry tool in much the same way a military model might pack a gun pod. This allowed the Construction Battloid to retain maximum flexibility for it's work capacity. Power sources varied depending on the client, ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) technology often mixed with electrical storage batteries using the same technology one would find in an "E-clip" of the day, only scaled for a Battloid sized machine. It is these construction machines that were often cannibalized for part to keep both CDC models in operation during the Invid Occupation of Earth. For Rebels, high-Tech Bandits and the like, these machines were a boon to their efforts. The construction/mining Battloids from the Combat battloid were the opposite transition of the Tractor to the Tank transition seen back in the ending days of the first world war. Kind of a nice semitry there.

The combat model was a rather simplistic design, with a "only what is absolutely nessicarry" approch to it. Armed only with a pair of low powered short range lasers and a possible E-20 gun pod (when heavy resistance was expected). A top notch movement computer governed the unit's walking and move related functions, along with the reactor control and pilot related functions. The rest of the electronics were as simple and inexepensive as possible. I hesitiate to use the word cheap, because cost to benifit raito was amazing. In those terms, it was one of the most efficent units ever put forth by the Earth born forces. The fact that so many survive and are the work horse of many of our enemys' mecha units speaks volumes to how well constructed these machines were.

The armor, even for the combat models was light by most standards. Built for every day usage as a policing vehicle that would protect it's pilot from rocks, small arms, molitovs and the occasional EBSIS Koskov-47 or an ultra rare Zentraedi Battle Pod. And it did a fair job at that. However throwing them at the Blue Bioroids was suicide. The Bioroid was better armed, faster when deployed from hoversleds, and in most manners better able to deal with the stresses of combat then it's CDC conterpart.

Today's CDC Battliod often sees an additional weapon system or two added to it, again most often the 12.7mm Machine gun, and from time to time a missile system, four mini-missiles OR two SRMs attached to the off hand. The Mini-missile system being the prefered weapon. Not only are they cheaper to deploy, but the low powered targeting system of the light CDC battloid often balks at the complex data that the short range missile system presses apon it, causing failed lock ons or targeting ghosts that don't really exist. The mini-missiles being totally unguided super rocket use a simple sub-routine program that was already in the system for the lasers, they simply have the values changed to accept the differnat nature of the mini-missiles themselves.

Some rebuilds carry more armor, up to 20% more over the vital areas, arms and legs, though this can cut speed and mobility, depending on the quality of the armorer. Speed and reaction time reductions vary wildly. Anywhere from no noticable reduction to a 50 percent reduction.

The two head lasers have a short range, reaching out to only 2000 feet. Meaning that many hand held rifles, such as the Gallent H-90 in rifle mode, can out reach them. Their damage potential is also very limited, on par with the H-90 in pistol mode. Not much a limitation when you concider the CDC Light Battliod's role as a police/emergency vehicle, or the idea that the toughest armed resistance would come from the few remaining malcontents and their busted ass battle pods. The RDF had already done the heavy lifting on the front, and the CDC had the Logan fighter and the Veritech Hover Tank screening them. However, in a throw down with Bioriods, things became much differant.

To over come the limitations of such a low powered weapon system, the ASC started issuing E-20 gun pods, the standard armamanet of Logan Fighter. That helped out some what, but still fell short of the needs of these units for that kind of a fight. The E-20 could hit a target at up to 4000 feet out, which put it on equal footing with the various arms of the Bioriods. However, that wasn't enough when you concider that the Bioriod held the mobility advantage when those dammed sleds were in play, as well as a serious firepower advantage. The E-20 could inflict medium levels of damage, often able to put down a Battle pod in two hits, and almost always by the third strike.

Within it's design perameters, the CDC Light Battliod was a functional unit. However, once the Second Robotech War got started, it was quickly outmoded by just about everything else on the battle field. Leonard again proved he was unfit for command by failing to take steps to upgrade his most plentiful unit. Bolt on armor, heavier weapons and additional combat training would have a been a simple and very inexpensive measure to off set the advantages the Bioroids had. Instead, the brave kids of the ASC got the shaft and a stupid space Helicopter.

[glitterboy2098]

Along those lines, these units lacked the combat level of sensors, combat and targeting computers found in the CDC model. Some specialty units carried saws, torches or drills inplace of a hand or arm, but as often as not, they simply carried the nessicarry tool in much the same way a military model might pack a gun pod. This allowed the Construction Battloid to retain maximum flexibility for it's work capacity. Power sources varied depending on the client, ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) technology often mixed with electrical storage batteries using the same technology one would find in an "E-clip" of the day, only scaled for a Battloid sized machine. It is these construction machines that were often cannibalized for part to keep both CDC models in operation during the Invid Occupation of Earth. For Rebels, high-Tech Bandits and the like, these machines were a boon to their efforts. The construction/mining Battloids from the Combat battloid were the opposite transition of the Tractor to the Tank transition seen back in the ending days of the first world war. Kind of a nice semitry there.

OOC: alas poor Robotech, i knew it horatio. it figures the long tentacles of "Clickytech" would raise its head here, but at least its in a form thats usable.

[The Artist Formerly]

Along those lines, these units lacked the combat level of sensors, combat and targeting computers found in the CDC model. Some specialty units carried saws, torches or drills inplace of a hand or arm, but as often as not, they simply carried the nessicarry tool in much the same way a military model might pack a gun pod. This allowed the Construction Battloid to retain maximum flexibility for it's work capacity. Power sources varied depending on the client, ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) technology often mixed with electrical storage batteries using the same technology one would find in an "E-clip" of the day, only scaled for a Battloid sized machine. It is these construction machines that were often cannibalized for part to keep both CDC models in operation during the Invid Occupation of Earth. For Rebels, high-Tech Bandits and the like, these machines were a boon to their efforts. The construction/mining Battloids from the Combat battloid were the opposite transition of the Tractor to the Tank transition seen back in the ending days of the first world war. Kind of a nice semitry there.

OOC: alas poor Robotech, i knew it horatio. it figures the long tentacles of "Clickytech" would raise its head here, but at least its in a form thats usable.

OOC: You meant those bastardized Battletech thingies. Actually I was thinking more along these lines.

That and I helped LJ work up a construction variant machine based on the CDC lt. Battloid for Zerebus' 2058 game setting.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The CDC Light Battloid was a multipurpose design used for a great number of things beyond combat. A great many were built for construction and mining as well as Civil Defense.

Colonel, while it is true that all Battloids can be used in construction and other 'peaceful' endeavours, these jobs mostly fell to the CER-Dryad and CER-Satyr Battloids. I must also correct the Colonel again, since he has provided the incorrect graphic of the Unicorn. While Rawlins' book does show the graphic provided, that is an Enlisted Man's version of the MBR-Salamander Battloid and not the MBR-Unicorn.

Major Jackson Reid of the GMP (retired) has the correct graphic of this mecha. I suggest you update your infomation concerning it. His Southern Cross Manual has one of the most complete listings of mecha utilized by the UEF Army.

http://southern-cross.ath.cx/Images/scb-03-cdu.gif

The non-combat models lacked the jump jets, protoculture engines, weapons package and had almost no armor to speak of aside from steel sheeting placed over certain componets to keep general debreis and FOD out of important componets, though they would stop most small arms ballistics such as the 7.62mm rounds of the AK-47 and the 5.65mm rounds of the M-16s and it's siblings.

I believe the Colonel is mistaking the early model MBR-Unicorn with the early model CER-Dryad, which in fact was unarmed and woefully unarmored. However, this model was replaced by 2015 with a newer version just in time for The Malcontent Uprisings to reach their high point. The Unicorn, by comparison, had some of the heaviest chest plating available on a Battloid until the introduction of the MBR-Basilisk.

Power sources varied depending on the client, ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) technology often mixed with electrical storage batteries using the same technology one would find in an "E-clip" of the day, only scaled for a Battloid sized machine.

Colonel, I believe these models post-dated the UEF Army of the Southern Cross' destruction at the hands of the Invid in 2031. No units that I am aware of in UEF inventory relied on anything other than a protoculture-assisted fusion engine, as all mecha of the UEF have done so since their introduction in 2006.

It is these construction machines that were often cannibalized for part to keep both CDC models in operation during the Invid Occupation of Earth. For Rebels, high-Tech Bandits and the like, these machines were a boon to their efforts.

The Unicorn was procured in significant numbers by the UEF Army and Expeditionary Force. It also remained in production in a handful of city-states for a short time during the Invid Occupation. While it officially disappeared as far as massed units are concerned, there were some recorded instances of their use against the Invid.

The combat model was a rather simplistic design, with a "only what is absolutely nessicarry" approch to it. Armed only with a pair of low powered short range lasers and a possible E-20 gun pod (when heavy resistance was expected).

Colonel, Im sorry, but you are quite mistaken on this point. The Unicorn mounts x2 head lasers (thats true), but also has x24 60mm rocket propelled grenades mounted in 2 launchers on the surface of the mecha. It also has x2 40mm grenade launchers built into the head for riot control (though only 4 grenades in total) that can utilize smoke, tear gas/pepper foam or fire retardant. It also is issued a beam cannon, usually an EPR-10 Manticore. The Logan EPR-20 was rarely issued as it was reserved for the VF-8 Logan, QF-8 Logan Drone Bomber and VA-8 'Super Logan'.

The rest of the electronics were as simple and inexepensive as possible.

Other than LiDAR, most sensors were not installed on the Battloids. Their jobs were not to repel aerial mecha necessarily. RADAR would have been next to useless in their chosen environment.

The armor, even for the combat models was light by most standards. Built for every day usage as a policing vehicle that would protect it's pilot from rocks, small arms, molitovs and the occasional EBSIS Koskov-47 or an ultra rare Zentraedi Battle Pod.

Colonel, again, I have no clue where this information comes from. The Unicorn benefitted from the new low-mass composite laminar that became standard on most mecha of this era. The two heavy shielded plates on the chest, armored to protect the 60mm grenades, was capable of withstanding a shot or two of medium anti-mecha weapons like the 55mm APFSDS. The head, its true, could be subsceptible to energy based small arms fire. The arm plates were double reinforced like most Battloids in an effort to give them some survivability.

Not only are they cheaper to deploy, but the low powered targeting system of the light CDC battloid often balks at the complex data that the short range missile system presses apon it, causing failed lock ons or targeting ghosts that don't really exist.

Only if the LiDAR system has been removed. This was not the case for UEF procured Unicorns.

The mini-missiles being totally unguided super rocket use a simple sub-routine program that was already in the system for the lasers, they simply have the values changed to accept the differnat nature of the mini-missiles themselves.

I can only imagine that these were subpar knockoff munitions produced in some hastily thrown together jungle factory. The UEF standard rocket propelled grenades and point-blank missiles all had targeting systems that were either semi-active (wire-guided) or Active (LiDAR).

Leonard again proved he was unfit for command by failing to take steps to upgrade his most plentiful unit. Bolt on armor, heavier weapons and additional combat training would have a been a simple and very inexpensive measure to off set the advantages the Bioroids had.

This is untrue Colonel and your Rawlins' bias is showing through again. For starters, the UEF Army Chief of Staff did not request additional armor plating (usually reactive) for the Unicorn as it was felt that it compromised its speed. There is also the fact that this kind of addition would have had to be approved budgetarily through the UEG.

Instead, the brave kids of the ASC got the shaft and a stupid space Helicopter

I would remind the Colonel, again, that his opinion of the Ajax may be valid to his small circle of defenders, but he must insist on realising that it was not deployed in space as a helicopter.

[Comrade Corsarius]

What the heck? Comrades! Why do we fight over rules? The good Colonel has always referred to this specifically as the RPG, and the robotech TV show, and not the (in this case much more finely-detailed) SC.

Anyway, I come in dry and dusty from a wasteland patrol having to put down yet another rebellion of starving peasants...er... terrorist rebels, and I find everyone fighting over something where taffy sets the rules! Calm down and let the man type! It's good copy, even if you don't agree with it 100% (there are bits about the EBSIS that I say he has dead wrong, for example).

So I hope to add more comments for sometime soon.

Dosdivanya Tovarichii!

[Lt. Holmes]

Even a young Cyc jock like myself can recognize the years of experience both you and the Colonel bring to this course, Comrade.

Do you have anything to weigh in on the AGACs? I'm certain the EBSIS had their eyes on that while it was being developed.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

What the heck? Comrades! Why do we fight over rules?

The Colonel is a big boy and he should be fine. Any historian knows that they must defend their position. I am simply defending mine. I don't agree with his conclusions about the Ajax and I have first hand knowledge that refutes his claim about the capabilities of the Cities Defense Unit's MBR-Unicorn. As a former Southern Cross'er myself, I feel its my obligation to point out his erroneous and flawed conclusions.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Rabid, besied being a Groundpounder has a History Degree, Specalizeing in Military History, from personla experince every author and everyone who read the bokk he wrote comes to a Diffrent version of "History".

Many Times These Historys Disagree with the Offical record of the Subject.

At a Game store Rabid and I once Frequented, a Civillian was Running an American Civil-war board game, When rabid pointed out 3 of the Units he was using were not prestent at that battle, not in that state at the time, he was told he was wrong. If the Colonel Wants to be a historian, he must understand he Will be told he is wrong, by Folks not Quoteing His Same "Offical" Document. yet Another Sourse they Feel just as Valid.

That Said, Today will be my Last day in Class, I'm Fileing a Complaint with the university, and Droping this class.

Jamie Wolfe (no relation)
B.M.E. Jupiter Division

[Comrade Corsarius]

(ooc: Southern cross fan, I bow to your superior knowledge of the series, but I am only really aware of the RPG material. This can sometimes make reading your posts confusing. For example, I’m sure that it’s the correct designation for a MBR-unicorn mecha, but I only know it (and it’s probably wrong, to boot) as the CDC-light and CDC-heavy mecha. If you can specify which ones are which when you post, I think your massive knowledge base would be helpful to all, and I welcome it!)

Regarding the AJACS copter, I find it to be a potent force that owed more to the earlier VF-series of mecha, than the newer, smaller SC mecha that replaced them. The AJACS is an excellent weapon system that suffers often from poor deployment. One of the reasons of this is because it is often compared to the much-superior Super-VF, or the REF equivalent, the Beta Fighter. These three fighters fill the same niche. In this, the AJACS loses out but this does not mean that it is not a potent fighter. The one-two punch of the AJACS and Logan is well designed as an integrated system, with the speedy, well-armed logan providing the primary hits, and the heavily armoured and MRM-armed AJACS standing off and raining heavy missile fire in a barrage. The AJACS is equipped with superior manoeverability in space thanks to it’s rotor blades (which, admittedly, caused much hilarity in the EBSIS officer’s mess) with pulse-jets at the end of each, allowing sharp turns and a superior moment arm. Certainly these mecha were achieving much in space, and were running circles around our units, which were operating Soldati mecha and Lancer I space fighters.

The AJACS is an excellent, long-ranged, capable mecha that has good speed and manoeverability. It is simply relegated to third rate as it was rapidly overtaken in development by the much superior alpha fighter.

[Colonel Wolfe]

(ooc: Southern cross fan, I bow to your superior knowledge of the series, but I am only really aware of the RPG material. This can sometimes make reading your posts confusing. For example, I’m sure that it’s the correct designation for a MBR-unicorn mecha, but I only know it (and it’s probably wrong, to boot) as the CDC-light and CDC-heavy mecha. If you can specify which ones are which when you post, I think your massive knowledge base would be helpful to all, and I welcome it!)

Regarding the AJACS copter, I find it to be a potent force that owed more to the earlier VF-series of mecha, than the newer, smaller SC mecha that replaced them. The AJACS is an excellent weapon system that suffers often from poor deployment. One of the reasons of this is because it is often compared to the much-superior Super-VF, or the REF equivalent, the Beta Fighter. These three fighters fill the same niche. In this, the AJACS loses out but this does not mean that it is not a potent fighter. The one-two punch of the AJACS and Logan is well designed as an integrated system, with the speedy, well-armed logan providing the primary hits, and the heavily armoured and MRM-armed AJACS standing off and raining heavy missile fire in a barrage. The AJACS is equipped with superior manoeverability in space thanks to it’s rotor blades (which, admittedly, caused much hilarity in the EBSIS officer’s mess) with pulse-jets at the end of each, allowing sharp turns and a superior moment arm. Certainly these mecha were achieving much in space, and were running circles around our units, which were operating Soldati mecha and Lancer I space fighters.

The AJACS is an excellent, long-ranged, capable mecha that has good speed and manoeverability. It is simply relegated to third rate as it was rapidly overtaken in development by the much superior alpha fighter.

Teh Alpha was Developed 13years prior to the test runs for the Ajax, i'm not sure how an older mecha overtook by a Mecha Developed over a Deade before.

the only REf mecha we Developed on par was The Beta, but it was developed almost 10 years after the Ajax, and the Defeat of the Masters.

People here fail to see the Ajax was developed After all of these Mecha you mention (vf-1. fast-paked vf, logan, Alpha), Using the Information provided from the Feild experince of these Mecha.

Jamie Wolfe (still not related)
BME. J.D.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

(ooc: Southern cross fan, I bow to your superior knowledge of the series, but I am only really aware of the RPG material. This can sometimes make reading your posts confusing. For example, I’m sure that it’s the correct designation for a MBR-unicorn mecha, but I only know it (and it’s probably wrong, to boot) as the CDC-light and CDC-heavy mecha. If you can specify which ones are which when you post, I think your massive knowledge base would be helpful to all, and I welcome it!)

(OOC: Ok....begin with these two pages. They list all the Battloid mecha used by the UEF Army of the Southern Cross. Two of them, the Cold Squad Fenris and Sea Squad Kraken are powered armours (at least to the best of our information).

http://scarmyofone.000k2.com/scross/images/MFAAHGF-SC_pp7-8.jpg

http://scarmyofone.000k2.com/scross/images/MFAAHF-SC_pp9-10.jpg

The AJACS is an excellent weapon system that suffers often from poor deployment.

Untrue. All mecha of the UEF that faced down the Bioroids suffered equally badly. You are not taking into account how tough and agile the Bioroid is nor how much covering fire the Assault Corvette provided.

One of the reasons of this is because it is often compared to the much-superior Super-VF, or the REF equivalent, the Beta Fighter. These three fighters fill the same niche.

I must admonish my Russian colleague as this is totally inaccurate. The FAST-Pack Converted Valkyrie was tasked with anti-ship duties, something that was the job of the heavier armed SF/A-7 Chimera. Its ability to carry 9 reflex (read: nuclear) stand-off missiles gave it a significant edge over both the Valkyrie and Beta, both of which could mount up to 6. Also, the Chimera could achieve a 12.5kps delta-v and Mach 6 at 45km compared to the Mach 1.8 of the Beta (without overthrust from boosters) and 11.8kps delta-v or the 11.4kps delta-v of the FAST-Pack Converted Valkyrie (never mind the fact that the Valkyrie cannot use the FAST-Pack in the atmosphere).

In space, the Ajax was meant to fulfill the role of a medium spacefighter. It excelled at this. The fact that many were lost in the 2nd Robotech War is due to the enemy that the Earth was facing...an enemy that not even the Pioneer Expedition units that returned were capable of dealing with except to bludgeon them with massed numbers in the hopes of wearing them down.

The one-two punch of the AJACS and Logan is well designed as an integrated system, with the speedy, well-armed logan providing the primary hits, and the heavily armoured and MRM-armed AJACS standing off and raining heavy missile fire in a barrage.

This is mostly true of the Ajax as it was used against Invid infantry (the misnamed Hive Enforcer) during the few months the Army of the Southern Cross was able to hold out against the Invid.

The AJACS is equipped with superior manoeverability in space thanks to it’s rotor blades (which, admittedly, caused much hilarity in the EBSIS officer’s mess).

Again, this is due to that hack Rawlin's. That is called Anit-Unification Propaganda, my friend. The Ajax, as I have stated more than once, was never deployed in space as a helicopter. The Fighter Configuration looks significantly different. I will point you to these two links, the first is sketches of the Ajax in all three forms while the second is combat footage.

http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/images/AuroranModes_ta784p46.jpg

http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture_archive/Southern_Cross/Mecha/agac/large/AGAC_1_large.jpg

It is simply relegated to third rate as it was rapidly overtaken in development by the much superior alpha fighter.

I am afraid this is untrue also, my friend. The Alpha was developed more than a decade prior to the Ajax. When the Pioneer Mission was reformed as the Robotech Expeditionary Force, it was decided to simplify their logistics. Most of the mecha that had traveled with the Pioneer Mission were retired in less than a decade after the Invid Occupation began. Right or wrong, the mainline variable mecha until the introduction of the Beta was the VF/B-5 Condor and VF/A-6 Alpha. They were paired together for attacks much as how the Logan and Ajax had been for ground support.

The Alpha's superiority is questionable compared to the Ajax. The need for a medium space fighter was not a factor when facing the Invid, as the REF controlled all space beyong Low-Earth Orbit.

[Lt. Holmes]

The Ajax, as I have stated more than once, was never deployed in space as a helicopter. The Fighter Configuration looks significantly different.

I believe our esteemed EBSIS colleague was referring to the AJACs' battloid mode, where having thrusters on each bladetip would make for one increadably agile battloid, not to mention all the other manouvering thrusters scattered across the surface. And even in Fighter mode, the two little "canard" blades located on the top rear fusalage would be very helpful in moving the mecha around.

Also, it occurs to me that the Helicopter mode would be excellent for the urban operations that the ASC mecha seems designed for. Given all the wrecked cities that were abandoned in the aftermath of the Rain of Death and were susequently taken over by various bandits, rogue Zentradi, and other forces, it only makes sense that the ASC would design their mecha to deal with the situation and not bludgeon it to death like the RDF mecha do.

It's been clearly shown that RDF mecha and cities do NOT mix, since even a moderatly speedy VF-1 will smash buildings to pieces, not to mention what it's thrusters in Guardian mode would do to the concrete and urban forests. A helicopter-equipped mecha would be able to speed through the concrete canyons without causing further damage.

[Comrade Corsarius]

Allright, Comrades. Thank you for the feedback. I had no intent on giving the AJACS disrespect, as it is a fine machine. It is fast, well armed and armoured, and manoeverable. To be entirely honest, I find it to be one of the best mecha of the particular era, overshadowed though it is by the famous hover tank.

I’ll give a rough rundown on the AJACS versus a few of the more prominent soviet vehicles and mecha.

Vs MiG and Sukhoi fighters: The AJACS is slower and more vulnerable in chopper mode, and as both of these vehicles use medium-ranged missiles as their primary armament. In fighter mode the AJACS has the advantage of firepower and armour as well as manoeverability, although the soviet fighters still have the speed advantage to ‘zoom and boom’. Soviet fighters should not engage an AJACS without a clear 3:1 supremacy.

Vs Iskra space fighter: (ooc: from information gleaned from books such as ‘Ghost Ship’, it seems that the EBSIS has quite a large contingent in space. I would assume that there are many of the armed shuttles as described in that book, along with dedicated space fighters. For lack of knowledge I have used the stats of the old Lancer I space fighter). I’d rate the Iskra at about 3 or 4:1 against the superb AJACS in any space combat.

Vs Soldati, Recon Destroyer and Juggernaut: Surprisingly, the AJACS in battloid mode is not all it could be. It has a poor top speed, roughly equal to the Recon destroyer, and can barely out-shuffle the Juggernaut. In such engagements, it’s pulse weapon and missile power give it the edge in a stand-up fight, as well as it’s helicopter flexibility to transform to move it place-to-place. Should it be stuck in battloid mode (due to maintenance issues or battle damage), an AJACS is in serious trouble. It is roughly equal to a Juggernaut in firepower (but with those lovely missiles as well), and I would rate it as 1:2 soldati, 1:1 Jugs, and 1:1.5 Destroyers. Of course, a grounded AJACS is nothing more than meat for a strike force of blitz-bikes, as it would be overwhelmed by speed and numbers before it had the chance to do any serious damage.

OOC: Sorry I can’t give more detail or be more conversational, but I only have internet access through work right now, which kind-of limits what I can type, or how much I can use it!

[Lt. Holmes]

Dear Comerade, what are your opinions on the AGACs and Logan's abilities in urban operations? Surely your forces must've engaged the ASC in the tens of thousands of wrecked urban areas.

[Comrade Corsarius]

Dear Comerade, what are your opinions on the AGACs and Logan's abilities in urban operations? Surely your forces must've engaged the ASC in the tens of thousands of wrecked urban areas.

Thank you Lieutenant. You are quite correct. The ASC and the EBSIS met on numerous occasions throughout areas of Africa and South America in the lost shells of cities burned by the Rain Of Death. To a lesser extent, during the Master invasion, a few EBSIS units were pledged to the UEG to engage the aliens. I was in the 35th Guards 'lightning' regiment at this time, only a lieutenant like yourself, fresh from blitz-bikes to mecha, and our unit was stationed just to the south of Monument City. The masters were powerful and tenacious (if tactically foolish and politically on the ash-heap of history) foes. It was as my commander said, he was so incensed at General Leonard's insolence that our forces were inadequate, that he took off his shoe and slammed it on the table. 'We will bury them', he cried. Leonard allowed us to move into the attack for the final battle. In fact, if you watch the closing credits of the 'robotech' TV show closely, you can see my Juggernaut mecha trying to keep up with the ASC battloids as Ms Sterling's hover tank runs forwards.

To the subject at hand: Both the ASC and the EBSIS were uniquely suited in mecha and tactics to urban combat. Certainly far moreso than units of the Zentraedi aliens or the enormous machines of the RDF. All troops were for the first time armed and armoured with MDC weapons and armour, and most units sported shields of one kind or another. All foot units (on both sides) had outstanding manoeverability within an urban environment with jet packs, or fast hover cycles. The EBSIS utilised Jet troops and Blitz-bikes (which are also capable of fairly limited flight and are not quite as manoeverable as the hover cycle).

Both sides tended to use fairly similar urban tactics. A standard grouping would be that the troops lead forward, with the flyers securing the high ground/windows. Ground troops move cautiously, ready to charge or find cover. Supporting all of this would be a mecha. Either a Soldati or Juggernaut for the EBSIS, or a TC or (more often) a CDU battloid for the ASC. These heavy units had two uses. a) draw the fire and thus uncover the position of the enemy and b) heavy weapons support. The speed and small size of mecha in this era made this a survivable prospect (unlike the earlier macross-era mecha, rebuilds, and the T-99 we lived with in the EBSIS)

An advantage that the ASC had in this field was the outstanding Logan fighter. While primarily a light air combat fighter and interceptor, it has an extremely heavy armament, and in guardian mode it is the smallest mecha in existence, except for the Micronian Power Armour, the Cyclone, and the Tornado. It barely tops three metres standing straight up. Thus, these heavily armed units could sweep quickly and at low altitudes through streets, drop ordinance or form a strongpoint until dedicated troops arrived. They were also used as a Rapid Deployment Force in areas where the fighting was the hottest. At worst case these mecha could even carry a few troops, so long as it did not move too quickly.

The EBSIS advantage was in the UAV. An ultra-heavy support unit and command post with massive armour, fair manoverability, and a suite of onboard weapons and sensors to make any field commander go weak at the knees. Many SC mecha and veritechs were taken down by this powerful unit's missiles (something that the SC tended to lack throught it's lifetime). Supported by Blitz-bikes that could rapidly converge on a target (and also armed with mini-missiles), their combined group firepower could be devastating.

My opinion on the AJACS is already on record, but I feel that it was always quite unsuited to urban combat. To utilise it's VTOL it needed clearance space for it's rotors, which often was a downfall, or if it changed to battloid mode it was a powerful, but slow, combatant, of little use in the fast-flowing urban combat except for manning strongpoints or forcing a schwerpunkt (if it could get there first). Admittedly, our Juggernaut suffered from similar problems. The AJACS is best at medium-to-long range engagements, with the battloid as a secondary (almost an emergency, one may say) option for short-range or ground-based engagements when there are no other units available (such as the TC or ATAC).

[Jefffar]

OOC Tangent:

The UAV is the one machine from Lancer's Rockers I truely loathe. The Instrumecha are kind of cool, the Sonic Titan is a good city stomping monster, but the UAV is just messed up.

My reasoning:
1) It's a Global Civil War era machine, with a plasma cannon. The EBSIS apaprently didn't have energy weaposn technology until the late reconstruction era
2) It's too big. In a city you don't want to be big, you can't fit down narrow allies and you're too heavy for bridges. Additionally the Russians like to beuild their AFVs small so they are smaller targets and they will fit through the narrow tunnels of Russian railways better. it also makes them easier to transport by air or sea.
3) Its too small. Read again how many troops the UAV carries. Does it carry a special chamber designed to shrink the troops and their gear down to 1/35th scale? C'mon, those guys don't have room to breathe, let alone wear combat gear and stow a few motorcycles!

[Colonel Wolfe]

OOC Tangent:

The UAV is the one machine from Lancer's Rockers I truely loathe. The Instrumecha are kind of cool, the Sonic Titan is a good city stomping monster, but the UAV is just messed up.

My reasoning:
1) It's a Global Civil War era machine, with a plasma cannon. The EBSIS apaprently didn't have energy weaposn technology until the late reconstruction era
2) It's too big. In a city you don't want to be big, you can't fit down narrow allies and you're too heavy for bridges. Additionally the Russians like to beuild their AFVs small so they are smaller targets and they will fit through the narrow tunnels of Russian railways better. it also makes them easier to transport by air or sea.
3) Its too small. Read again how many troops the UAV carries. Does it carry a special chamber designed to shrink the troops and their gear down to 1/35th scale? C'mon, those guys don't have room to breathe, let alone wear combat gear and stow a few motorcycles!

1) I think it was retrofitted with the Plasma canon... but i may be wrong... its description sounds like it.
2) 20ft high, 28 feet wide and 55ft long.... pertty big.
3)Last time I tried to apply Logic about Fitting things in spaces they cant fit I got told "Its a game and the rules are it works".
1 pilot, 2 gunners and 1 comm officer... and 24 -40 passangers.... well it says 24 comfortable and 40 crammed.... i cant find a pic of it in the LR book... i cant really say if they could or not.

[Jefffar]

Due to several requests, I tried to sort out the origional threads and the dierse tangents here. The result was a total mess.

So, instead I will close this thread down and suggest that if there's a discussion here you want to preserve, continue it in a new thread.

Oh a note about in-character threads. Consider them an RPG session and the first poster in the thread decides what level of the Robotech continuity (ie RPG only, Novels Only, Comics Only, Primary Sources Only or a mixture) the thread will use. Everyone else should respond as if that was the only sources of information avaialble.

If you don't like the restrictions that someone puts for source material avaialble in their in-character thread, then don't participate. Start your own thread that reflects your personal tastes much better.

Thanks.