REF vs The Robotech Masters

[Colonel Wolfe]

Here it is for all of you who think the REF would have did better then ASC vs The Robotech Master here your chance to prove it. Give Examples.

Before This become a Flame war. Lets Set some Qualifiers:

FORCES:

by REF, do you mean 1) the SDF-3 as the only Ship 2) The Fleet that Accompanied the SDF-3 or 3) the Factory Satellite (From the Redubbed/edited Sentinels movie) with MEcha from all 3 eras.

by Robotech Masters, do you Mean: 1) a Single out of power Mother Ship (as described in the RPG) or 2) The Force of the Masters Show in the Animation (10+ huge Ships) that are running low but can still effectively wage a war on the earth, possibly destroying it:

second Qualifier:

Location Location Location:

is the REF Defending the Earth? or Encounters them out of our Solar system?

3rd Qualifier:

Which REF Period, early REF or Late REF?

Thou many of the Mecha will remain the Same, the Ships will be different.

the REF of2025 Would have no beta's and a different Set of Ships in its Main fleet. the REF of 2044 as well would be Blood Thirsty enough to Neutron-s everything (Though the masters are well defended against Missiles)

4th: Canon Information Source

What sources are Canon for this:
RPG only, Animation/robotech.com, novels, your onw personal opion.

[glitterboy2098]

the REF of 2044 as well would be Blood Thirsty enough to Neutron-s everything (Though the masters are well defended against Missiles)

i'm not so sure the REF was bloodthirsty. the Neutron-S missiles were deployed its true, but did they really intend to use them all along?

a neutron bomb is a type of atomic warhead that kills all organic life, but leaves inorganic structures intact. the neutron-S missiles are really big neutron bombs.

jupiter fleet didn't know that humanity still survived on earth, we see no comunication between the landing force and the major fleet. so the use of the Neutron-S missiles was likely provoked by a beleif that the REF had lost earth to the invid and no humans remained on the planet.

i'll agree that the officer in charge was too hasty in deploying such "weapons of last resort".

[Colonel Wolfe]

the REF of 2044 as well would be Blood Thirsty enough to Neutron-s everything (Though the masters are well defended against Missiles)

i'm not so sure the REF was bloodthirsty. the Neutron-S missiles were deployed its true, but did they really intend to use them all along?

a neutron bomb is a type of atomic warhead that kills all organic life, but leaves inorganic structures intact. the neutron-S missiles are really big neutron bombs.

jupiter fleet didn't know that humanity still survived on earth, we see no comunication between the landing force and the major fleet. so the use of the Neutron-S missiles was likely provoked by a beleif that the REF had lost earth to the invid and no humans remained on the planet.

i'll agree that the officer in charge was too hasty in deploying such "weapons of last resort".

well, they indicate they will destroy the earth, not kill all life:

"In desperation, the Expeditionary Forces launch the Neutron S Missiles to destroy the Earth"

and Launch 3 of the 3Km Missiles at the earth. Why fold in with Such huge Weapons if you dont plan to use them. The plan was on the Table. Admrial Hunter Must have sent them along, as the SDF-3 was suposed to accompiny the rwst of the Fleet, but failed to fold in. The REF came with the intent of taking care of a Potential Problem with the Final Soultion. Planetary Destruction.

but OFF topic:

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Actually...they launched 7 of them at Reflex Point. In all likelyhood, the overpressure blast would have cracked the continental plate that North America is resting upon. One would imagine the resulting fireball would travel over a large part of the planet going somewhere close to the speed of sound for at least the several thousand miles in all directions.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Using just the Tv show, Im sorry, but the Expeditionary Force of any era is gonna get stomped on. While they may be able to destroy a city-ship or three with the SDF-3 and SDF-4, I imagine that won't go on for too long before the Masters turn their own reflex weapons against them. Good bye Ricky Hunter and the unnamed Admiral from Symphony of Light.

Just using the number of ships we see on screen, the 3rd Reclamation Mission Force (lead by the SDF-4) edges out the UEF Fleet of the Southern Cross-era in Veritech/Starfighters simply because we cannot prove using the footage that the UEF had more Destroyers than was shown. We have circumstantial evidence that shows they do...but not proof.

While there appears to be evidence that all UEF ships post-Macross can mount shields (Major Carpenter's aide says their shields are down in Outsiders), they are no where near as effective as those mounted on the Masters' ships (which have 2 layers of them anyway). The Masters' ships mount hundreds of particle beam turrets in addition to their main cannon. While there only appear to be about 13 city-ships at one time, there is animation that suggests there may be as many as 20 or more. Then we have their heavy cruiser escorts that appear to be about 10 per city-ship. This does not include the hundreds of Bioroid corvettes that each city-ship can launch nor the multi-purporse ships from Half Moon.

Quite simply, the UEF is gonna be in bad shape no matter what force was defending the Earth.

[AdmTolval]

[quote="the REF of2025 Would have no beta's and a different Set of Ships in its Main fleet. quote]

Are you sure about the beta's? In the Sentinels animation, they show betas. Max is part of the testing of the alpha/beta link-up.

[Colonel Wolfe]

[quote="the REF of2025 Would have no beta's and a different Set of Ships in its Main fleet. quote]

Are you sure about the beta's? In the Sentinels animation, they show betas. Max is part of the testing of the alpha/beta link-up.

The URRG's Beta File

Very Sure, Lancer in 2043 knows nothing of a Beta, meaning it was put in to service after he came back to earth, and dressed liek a girl.

the Alpha booster program was developed in 2019, the Beta was a Problmatic design. the Item Max is testing in that Animation is a TREAD, or "TRans-EArth Deployment" Alpah Booster, IIRC, it dosent Transform on its own, nor have a pilot. They Adopted the VF-5 Condor, but 20 years later, they reintroduced the Beta program, in place of the Ageing Condor.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well gosh, if we can reference "that animation", then I'll point out that Karen Penn was the pilot of that Beta.

She was, I've scene the sentinels once, so I'm not 100% on it, but if so, i was inccorect on the unpiloted part, BUT, The Beta was not put to production until after the Attack Lancer was part of Failed.

Robotech.com:

The Beta fighter was first tested as early as 2022 as the VF-X-7, but the tests were deemed a failure, and the Beta concept was shelved for over a decade, while the SFA-5 Conbat soldiered on as the Expeditionary Force's heavy ordnance strike fighters. Eventually, the Beta concept was revived with significant updates and upgrades, and entered service as the VFB-9 only a few years before the ill-fated Mars Division mission to reclaim Earth.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Well gosh, if we can reference "that animation", then I'll point out that Karen Penn was the pilot of that Beta.

Actually....you're mistaken Zerebus. Karen was piloting the Red Alpha. The feet got bent up badly so the link-up procedure failed.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well gosh, if we can reference "that animation", then I'll point out that Karen Penn was the pilot of that Beta.

Actually....you're mistaken Zerebus. Karen was piloting the Red Alpha. The feet got bent up badly so the link-up procedure failed.

Teh Scripts put her in the red one:http://www.rtsurfer.com/Sent_scripts/Episode_Three.htm

Scene 6: [Truck in past Lang and Penn to show Karen Penn flying past the giant observation window in a red Alpha Fighter]

[Colonel Wolfe]

I'll accept it Exisits, but its not Core Canon, and when it conflicts with the Main series its wrong... but it exisits.... in 2 versions too.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Of course, I'll also politely point out that robotech.com is completely uncanon in regards to the series that the RPG was based on, and if someone wants to go attack Reflex Point in the 2040s, then all they'll kill are a bunch of tourists, as prior to robotech.com, all official sources placed episodes 61-85 squarely in the mid 2030s.

There may be a new canon for setting up the new series, but that canon is 100% foreign and opposed to the series as aired.

Bas, get off it, people who complain about HG fixing Robotech are like the peopel who think Wotc didnt have the right to make D&D3rd or that Lucas Shouldnt make the prequels.

Prior to Robotech.com , robotech was steadly headin the way fo the Dinosaurs, and Exosquad was part of the Robotech Canon, in 2040's the Invid controled the earth again, (even thou they left swearing never to come back). No Dates are Given as to Wehn the Battle of Reflex point Takes palce, many things point for later then the 2030's, The Lack of bodies at Point-K. For there to be Any Chance of the Sentinels Fitting in the Robotech Universe the Dates must be moved to 2040's, Carpenter never MEntioned the Invid in 2030 when he came back. only the MAsters knew of there existance.

The RPG is not based off any Serise called robotech i've scene thou.... its somethign akin to the Mckinney novels, and Mackes Goofballed Ideas for Minmay to be a GOD. It's contains more Simple errors that are plinly contradicted by the Animation, Wrogn weapons outloads, bad Story calls, and the Invid Returning....

Edit:
I Follow this Idea for when the Sentinesl war happened http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/Re ... inels.html

and use the Robotech.com Timeline, HG has the Right to re-write its Setting, but the "Move" of the Invid invasion era form the mid 30's to the early 40's is well with in the Animation, as no Specific Dates were Given in that Ear. (cept by Mckinney)

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I know you do, Wolfe. It's Rabid who's been a stickler about it over the last year.

Now, now...none of that. I did offer an alternate version of The Sentinels on my own that I thought would fit better with the facts as we know them from Robotech. The Sentinels as it was planned and The Sentinels as it appeared both have incredible problems with how they twist the canon of Robotech as far as Im concerned. A few things in the movie make sense (the SDF-1 and SDF-2 salvaged to make the SDF-3, Beta Test Flight, the Robotech Repair Factory/Space Station Liberty, REF using SC equipment) and some things from the series that was planned make sense in some form (REF Destroids, GMU, VTOL Fighter, Prototype Cyclone, Odeon & Crann Inorganics, new style Zentraedi Battlepods, Zentraedi Ships: SDF-3 & SDF-8.) though a bunch of the latter need to be rethought/reorganized.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that The Sentinels would need to be rewritten from the ground up. Hell, I wouldnt even mind an earlier start date for the Expedition. As much as Im ambivalent to the characters, Rick and Lisa should have been married no later than 2015, truth be told. Bas knows I support the Late-Return....not so much because it makes the best sense or is the only way to interpret the evidence....but because it pads out the timeline. Ive always felt the Early-Return compacted the timeline way too much. I also don't like the idea of Hunter and crew being young enough to still be fighter jocks with the Invid around. The more secondary the Macross characters become, the better off I'll feel. Macek was a loon to have them at the forefront of the story in The Sentinels as it was planned. Robotech is NOT their story. Thats part of the reason why Southern Cross and Mospeada are only now emerging from Macross's shadow in Robotech.

[Colonel Wolfe]

okay:

REF v. The Masters


REF of the Era in the Invid invasion, as its the most Detailed of the REF forces:

Masters with 10-20 MotherShips.

as Individual Forces Go, the REF Feilds more Mecha in this Era then the ASC did in its Final Offensive. Alpha-Betas Shadow Fighters & Drones. (not Including the ShadowBeta Design).

Shadow Technology is a Big Boost, but it was Mainly Designed for Anti-invid Detection, Weather these Countermeasures would work on the Masters is not known.

Over Half the REF Arsenel is Missile Dependent, Making them nearly useless against the Masters Bioroid/Corvette Combination.

The REF Ground Forces Depend highly on Cyclones and Bataloid Form Alphas, Making ground based engagments tough for the REF. Bad Terrain would Hinder the REF Teribly, as against Ground Troops they rely heavily on Missiles, Where once again the Masters have Superb Defense.

In Space Battles the Superior Number of REf Ships is a Bonus, but even so the ASC Feilded over 70 Ships in a Single engagment and Fought to a Stand Still. (no real count is Given for the REF Ships in the Final Offensive, but mostlikely no more then 100 Capital ships)

IMO the REF Would Fair equaly bad in Space as the UEF did, and would Fail against Ground Assaults for Key territoies.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

In Space Battles the Superior Number of REf Ships is a Bonus, but even so the ASC Feilded over 70 Ships in a Single engagment and Fought to a Stand Still. (no real count is Given for the REF Ships in the Final Offensive, but mostlikely no more then 100 Capital ships)

IMO the REF Would Fair equaly bad in Space as the UEF did, and would Fail against Ground Assaults for Key territoies.

Actually...the REF in the 3rd Robotech War fields far fewer capital ships than the United Earth Forces of the 2nd Robotech War. This was compiled by Olsonk and represents what we see on the screen (with minimum fighter complement provided by me):

1st Reclamation Fleet, September 2038
3x Ikazuchi Battlecruisers
25x Garfish Cruisers
Numerous Horizon Dropships

Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement: aprox. 2139

2nd Reclamation Fleet, September 2042
2x Ikazuchi Battlecruisers
4x Garfish Cruisers
10x Horizon Dropships

Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement: 1256

3rd Reclamation Fleet, July 2044
8x Neutron S Missiles
1x Izumo Battleship
12x Shadow Ikazuchi Battlecruisers
21x Shadow Garfish Cruisers
7x Shadow Horizon Dropships
33x Horizon Dropships

Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement: 10,451

If we simply go by what we can prove from on-screen animation, the UEF in the 2nd Robotech War fields more Veritechs/Starfighters and Cruisers.

[Zer0 Kay]

Of course, I'll also politely point out that robotech.com is completely uncanon in regards to the series that the RPG was based on, and if someone wants to go attack Reflex Point in the 2040s, then all they'll kill are a bunch of tourists, as prior to robotech.com, all official sources placed episodes 61-85 squarely in the mid 2030s.

There may be a new canon for setting up the new series, but that canon is 100% foreign and opposed to the series as aired.

Bas, get off it, people who complain about HG fixing Robotech are like the peopel who think Wotc didnt have the right to make D&D3rd or that Lucas Shouldnt make the prequels.

Prior to Robotech.com , robotech was steadly headin the way fo the Dinosaurs, and Exosquad was part of the Robotech Canon, in 2040's the Invid controled the earth again, (even thou they left swearing never to come back). No Dates are Given as to Wehn the Battle of Reflex point Takes palce, many things point for later then the 2030's, The Lack of bodies at Point-K. For there to be Any Chance of the Sentinels Fitting in the Robotech Universe the Dates must be moved to 2040's, Carpenter never MEntioned the Invid in 2030 when he came back. only the MAsters knew of there existance.

The RPG is not based off any Serise called robotech i've scene thou.... its somethign akin to the Mckinney novels, and Mackes Goofballed Ideas for Minmay to be a GOD. It's contains more Simple errors that are plinly contradicted by the Animation, Wrogn weapons outloads, bad Story calls, and the Invid Returning....

Edit:
I Follow this Idea for when the Sentinesl war happened http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/Re ... inels.html

and use the Robotech.com Timeline, HG has the Right to re-write its Setting, but the "Move" of the Invid invasion era form the mid 30's to the early 40's is well with in the Animation, as no Specific Dates were Given in that Ear. (cept by Mckinney)

Why the he77 do you keep saying that Exo-Squad is part of Robotech canon? Just because Exo-squad got the rights and sold the toys under Exo-squad name? Was there ever an Exo-squad animation or comic that use them or vise versa? If not saying that Exo-squad is part of the RT canon is as dumb as saying that all Hot Wheels were part of the RT canon also since they were the ones who released the toys the first time.

You do realize that without Macek's "Goofballed" ideas that there would be NO ROBOTECH, and it would be less likely that anime would be such a hit in this country now. Hmm... then again that might not be a bad thing I don't like anime that much now that it is a common thing. I was really into it in the late 80's and reviewed brand new fan trans. for animes that still aren't stateside. Oh well!

[Colonel Wolfe]

Why the he77 do you keep saying that Exo-Squad is part of Robotech canon? Just because Exo-squad got the rights and sold the toys under Exo-squad name? Was there ever an Exo-squad animation or comic that use them or vise versa? If not saying that Exo-squad is part of the RT canon is as dumb as saying that all Hot Wheels were part of the RT canon also since they were the ones who released the toys the first time.

You do realize that without Macek's "Goofballed" ideas that there would be NO ROBOTECH, and it would be less likely that anime would be such a hit in this country now. Hmm... then again that might not be a bad thing I don't like anime that much now that it is a common thing. I was really into it in the late 80's and reviewed brand new fan trans. for animes that still aren't stateside. Oh well!

Thanks for the Flame:
Well, Because the Pacakges for the Exosquad toys included a history of how the RDF joined the Exo-Squad. The Hotwheels toys Never intergrated the Robotech universe as part of its own, adding to the Canon, The ExoSquad Line Did. even the "Veritechs" in Robotech:3000 were Simmiler to the Exo-Squad Powerarmors. (Please watch the Trailer, you'll see what i Mean, and Why i continue to say exo-Squad was the Precursore to RT3K)

I realise that Maceks Begining Ideas were Good, but he was no where near the "god" people label him 90% of the Show was written by the Staff Writers, Everything Macek was in control of after Robotech Failed Miserbily(the movie, Sentinels).

[Zer0 Kay]

Why the he77 do you keep saying that Exo-Squad is part of Robotech canon? Just because Exo-squad got the rights and sold the toys under Exo-squad name? Was there ever an Exo-squad animation or comic that use them or vise versa? If not saying that Exo-squad is part of the RT canon is as dumb as saying that all Hot Wheels were part of the RT canon also since they were the ones who released the toys the first time.

You do realize that without Macek's "Goofballed" ideas that there would be NO ROBOTECH, and it would be less likely that anime would be such a hit in this country now. Hmm... then again that might not be a bad thing I don't like anime that much now that it is a common thing. I was really into it in the late 80's and reviewed brand new fan trans. for animes that still aren't stateside. Oh well!

Thanks for the Flame:
Well, Because the Pacakges for the Exosquad toys included a history of how the RDF joined the Exo-Squad. The Hotwheels toys Never intergrated the Robotech universe as part of its own, adding to the Canon, The ExoSquad Line Did. even the "Veritechs" in Robotech:3000 were Simmiler to the Exo-Squad Powerarmors. (Please watch the Trailer, you'll see what i Mean, and Why i continue to say exo-Squad was the Precursore to RT3K)

I realise that Maceks Begining Ideas were Good, but he was no where near the "god" people label him 90% of the Show was written by the Staff Writers, Everything Macek was in control of after Robotech Failed Miserbily(the movie, Sentinels).

Not flaming you...asking to be flamed hence flame bait. You have got to be kidding. When I collected all the Exo-squad stuff I didn't get the RT stuff because I already had that. OK now I agree that is really stupid. I'd have to say that was a HG move not CM at least I hope. I've gone through periods where I've been for then against Robotech then for again when I realized that without it we might not have Wolf's Rain or FLCL or Ranma 1/2 or RoLW or RG Veda...oh wait that's not here yet.

My point being I got into Anime because I saw Robotech (same reason I got into Battletech then Palladium after realizing that 'all art is original' was a lie in Battletech). After getting into anime big time I learned that Robotech was the Carl Macek basterdized version of three seperate anime (of which to this day I have not seen the originals...bad me) so I disliked CM and HG. When I got older I realized/learned that CM did what he had to in order to share Anime with the masses and have it shown on sindicated TV. So in a way he did us all a favor opening people to Anime. It was likely his work with HG that would open the eyes of those who would later become U.S. carriers, video rental store managers and video sales store managers ushering in an age of Anime in the U.S. never seen before. I dought that it was Speed Racer, Galaxy Force or Giant Robo or the Anime craze would have started well before. Voltron is a maybe.

Speaking of quality animation what happened to G.I. Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, Silverhawks, Tigersharks and others like them? Why are our children (older crowd of course) watching stupid shows like Sponge Bob, Code Name: Kids Next Door and other poor quality animation and storylines heck even Bugs Bunny was/is better. Ok Rant over

[Zer0 Kay]

Why the he77 do you keep saying that Exo-Squad is part of Robotech canon? Just because Exo-squad got the rights and sold the toys under Exo-squad name? Was there ever an Exo-squad animation or comic that use them or vise versa? If not saying that Exo-squad is part of the RT canon is as dumb as saying that all Hot Wheels were part of the RT canon also since they were the ones who released the toys the first time.

You do realize that without Macek's "Goofballed" ideas that there would be NO ROBOTECH, and it would be less likely that anime would be such a hit in this country now. Hmm... then again that might not be a bad thing I don't like anime that much now that it is a common thing. I was really into it in the late 80's and reviewed brand new fan trans. for animes that still aren't stateside. Oh well!

Thanks for the Flame:
Well, Because the Pacakges for the Exosquad toys included a history of how the RDF joined the Exo-Squad. The Hotwheels toys Never intergrated the Robotech universe as part of its own, adding to the Canon, The ExoSquad Line Did. even the "Veritechs" in Robotech:3000 were Simmiler to the Exo-Squad Powerarmors. (Please watch the Trailer, you'll see what i Mean, and Why i continue to say exo-Squad was the Precursore to RT3K)

I realise that Maceks Begining Ideas were Good, but he was no where near the "god" people label him 90% of the Show was written by the Staff Writers, Everything Macek was in control of after Robotech Failed Miserbily(the movie, Sentinels).

I thought the movie was good what failed was his tenacity and money management. Besides Vampire Hunter D wasn't a failure nor Heavy Metal FAKK 2. Oh when I say the movie I refer to Sentinels...The movie I didn't know there was another movie from what I here I guess that is a good thing. I had always been told the movie was Sentinels which was the first and only three episodes of Sentinels produced before the problems started happening.

[Zer0 Kay]

Why the he77 do you keep saying that Exo-Squad is part of Robotech canon? Just because Exo-squad got the rights and sold the toys under Exo-squad name? Was there ever an Exo-squad animation or comic that use them or vise versa? If not saying that Exo-squad is part of the RT canon is as dumb as saying that all Hot Wheels were part of the RT canon also since they were the ones who released the toys the first time.

You do realize that without Macek's "Goofballed" ideas that there would be NO ROBOTECH, and it would be less likely that anime would be such a hit in this country now. Hmm... then again that might not be a bad thing I don't like anime that much now that it is a common thing. I was really into it in the late 80's and reviewed brand new fan trans. for animes that still aren't stateside. Oh well!

Thanks for the Flame:
Well, Because the Pacakges for the Exosquad toys included a history of how the RDF joined the Exo-Squad. The Hotwheels toys Never intergrated the Robotech universe as part of its own, adding to the Canon, The ExoSquad Line Did. even the "Veritechs" in Robotech:3000 were Simmiler to the Exo-Squad Powerarmors. (Please watch the Trailer, you'll see what i Mean, and Why i continue to say exo-Squad was the Precursore to RT3K)

I realise that Maceks Begining Ideas were Good, but he was no where near the "god" people label him 90% of the Show was written by the Staff Writers, Everything Macek was in control of after Robotech Failed Miserbily(the movie, Sentinels).

Thank god that never happened.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Robotech: The Movie,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091862/

it Combined Megazone 23 and Southren cross, was a PG-13 movie, taged Rated: G, at the Test shows Kids left the Theater Crying b/c of the Viollence, cussing and graphic depeitions of Death.....

Also was a Continuity nightmare, Landed a Masters Ship in Japan in 2027, years before the invasion... but used the exact same footage fomr the ASC episodes depicting the invasion.

HG lost the Rights to the Megazone 23 footage, and no longer Supports or Considers Robotech: The movie as any part of Canon.


I've Never considred Robotech to have any relations to the "3 Japanimations it share Animation cells with". most people will call Macross, SDC: Southren Cross and GC: Modpeade The Origonal Series that bacame robotech, i think of them as 3 Animes that Share the animation cells, nothing more.

Exo-Squad: Robotech, were the First toys for Robotech i collected. The Package Gave a Half-arsed Plot that had the RDF sending Destroids to help ther new Allies the Exo-Squad out.... was aweful. This move on Hg's part was to Help Playmates Stop a Lawsuit by Fasa, Fasa was Sueing Playmates for its Exosquad line trying to imply they Stole the Designs of Proto-Mechs and Elementals for the Exosquad... Hg Let them Make the Destroids.... Fasa Droped the Law Suit, not wanting an Legal entanglement with the Destroid Designs Again.

My CM's Failures was ment only for his dealing with Robotech, Thou i'm not a Heavymetal fan, he is Sucessful with it none the less.

But back on the Topic of the thread: Whast your Opion on the REF v. Masters invasion force?

[Colonel Wolfe]

I don't understand why you would bother to call the Exo-Squad thing anything but a wonderful event that allowed many of us to collect Robotech toys that we had missed in their initial production run. I'm quite fond of the battlepod I acquired.

It was a good chance to get the Destroids/BP's that were had to find in the 90's


Zereb have you Chimed in on the REF v. Masters?

[Colonel Wolfe]

Third post of the thread, Wolfe. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

3rd post? how can i remember something that took place before 15 Tangent Topics and 34 hours of Everquest?

[Zer0 Kay]

Robotech: The Movie,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091862/

it Combined Megazone 23 and Southren cross, was a PG-13 movie, taged Rated: G, at the Test shows Kids left the Theater Crying b/c of the Viollence, cussing and graphic depeitions of Death.....

Also was a Continuity nightmare, Landed a Masters Ship in Japan in 2027, years before the invasion... but used the exact same footage fomr the ASC episodes depicting the invasion.

HG lost the Rights to the Megazone 23 footage, and no longer Supports or Considers Robotech: The movie as any part of Canon.


I've Never considred Robotech to have any relations to the "3 Japanimations it share Animation cells with". most people will call Macross, SDC: Southren Cross and GC: Modpeade The Origonal Series that bacame robotech, i think of them as 3 Animes that Share the animation cells, nothing more.

Exo-Squad: Robotech, were the First toys for Robotech i collected. The Package Gave a Half-arsed Plot that had the RDF sending Destroids to help ther new Allies the Exo-Squad out.... was aweful. This move on Hg's part was to Help Playmates Stop a Lawsuit by Fasa, Fasa was Sueing Playmates for its Exosquad line trying to imply they Stole the Designs of Proto-Mechs and Elementals for the Exosquad... Hg Let them Make the Destroids.... Fasa Droped the Law Suit, not wanting an Legal entanglement with the Destroid Designs Again.

My CM's Failures was ment only for his dealing with Robotech, Thou i'm not a Heavymetal fan, he is Sucessful with it none the less.

But back on the Topic of the thread: Whast your Opion on the REF v. Masters invasion force?

Yeah I saw that when I was recently lookin for RT movie still glad I didn't see it. I'm sorry you didn't get to collect the toys while they were being produced by Hot Wheels. Suprised that FASA didn't get sued by more anime since at that time the scorpion, goliath, zues and other were from other anime series.

Oh

Back on Topic I don't know right now I don't have my REF field guide with me but if the Ikazuchi Carriers also have annihilation cannons on them then I'd have to say REF with the number of annihilation cannons on their side. Also the anti-missile systems would only be able to handle so many missiles and the amount coming from an REF fleet would be astronomical. Of course I'm asuming the later parts of Sentinels. If it is in the earlier days like the REF met the RT Masters instead of passing them while in fold I figure the RT Masters...Maybe they'd probably do something stupid like not try to destroy the SDF-3 since they'd detect SDF-1 parts in it. "Sir I'm receiving a strange reading...it appears as if that ship is Zor's ship." Oh and then they'd have Minmei sing and make all their ears bleed and brains explode while instantly detuning all of their musical instruments. I'll give my real opinion after I get a chance to study the REF field guide. Can anyone post what the REF left earth with? How about Their first fleet upgrade after becoming Sentinel member? What kind of Ships did the Sentinels have? I know that they offered to help the REF retake Earth but the Hunter's decided that it should be a human thing. What if the Sentinels didn't listen and gave aid anyway what could they send. The game books never cover Sentinel Ships or Mechs or other Fighting Vehicles. Anyone know?

[Zer0 Kay]

I don't understand why you would bother to call the Exo-Squad thing anything but a wonderful event that allowed many of us to collect Robotech toys that we had missed in their initial production run. I'm quite fond of the battlepod I acquired.

I would have thought it fine if it was just Robotech Toys being sold under the Exo-Squad line. But putting explinations to make them Exo-squad is just wrong.

[Zer0 Kay]

Third post of the thread, Wolfe. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

3rd post? how can i remember something that took place before 15 Tangent Topics and 34 hours of Everquest?

They don't call me the Master of Post Fu for nothing, you know.

Ah master may I see how you block a flurry of post attacks using Post Fu?

[Zer0 Kay]

But putting explinations to make them Exo-squad is just wrong.

Oh come on, they were children's toys. Children interested in Exosquad probably wouldn't even remember what Robotech was.

I collected both. I think it was just HG trying to give FASA a matching black eye. I thought the Exo-Squad (ES) was imaginitive and the toys well made (though going to repaints was cheesy). Actually having a power pack and having the crew hook into the machine nice. I didn't see how they were anywhere near elementals. Close to the loader from Aliens but I didn't see them try to make a case against them.

[Zer0 Kay]

But putting explinations to make them Exo-squad is just wrong.

Oh come on, they were children's toys. Children interested in Exosquad probably wouldn't even remember what Robotech was.

DAMN that was a block and I missed it wasn't it

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

But if the Ikazuchi Carriers also have annihilation cannons on them then I'd have to say REF with the number of annihilation cannons on their side.

The Ikazuchi has x8 tri-barreled heavy particle beam cannons. They probably pack a good whallop but are slower firing than their medium particle beam cannon cousins (like those on the Tristar's and Ardennes). I guess the 8 hatches on the foward end are supposed to be the point-defense cannons. God help an Ikazuchi if an enemy gets behind it (as was done to the UES Hannibal in Outsiders)

Also the anti-missile systems would only be able to handle so many missiles and the amount coming from an REF fleet would be astronomical.

Miniscule is more like it. Of the ships of the REF in the 3rd Generation, only 2 mount missile armaments: the Garfish-class Light Cruiser and the Neutron-S Missile Launch Platform. Not even the SDF-4 has missile armaments and as the SDF-3 isnt in New Generation...well...it doesnt count. Its the ships of the 2nd Generation (that made up the UEF and Pioneer Expedition Fleets) that had numerous missile armaments.

[Zer0 Kay]

Miniscule is more like it. Of the ships of the REF in the 3rd Generation, only 2 mount missile armaments: the Garfish-class Light Cruiser and the Neutron-S Missile Launch Platform. Not even the SDF-4 has missile armaments and as the SDF-3 isnt in New Generation...well...it doesnt count. Its the ships of the 2nd Generation (that made up the UEF and Pioneer Expedition Fleets) that had numerous missile armaments.

A fleet includes it's birds. So try again with all it's veritechs fighters etc plus all the Spartans walking on the Hull. How Many missiles do you count now?

What do you mean the SDF-3 doesn't count? I thought we could use the ships from any era.

[Zer0 Kay]

Best defense: no be there.
Best-er defense: not only not be there, but counterstrike before they know what hit them.

Bestest-est defense pay someone else to do it?

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

A fleet includes it's birds. So try again with all it's veritechs fighters etc plus all the Spartans walking on the Hull. How Many missiles do you count now?

Considering the numerous missile armaments, including long-range reflex missiles, that the UEF in the 2nd Robotech War lobbed at the Masters, I dont think its gonna matter. The REF in the 3rd Robotech War has fewer hulls than the UEF did (and Im just counting those from Earth, not the Pioneer Expedition). Given that every ship of the line (minus combat shuttles) fielded by the UEF have long-range missiles, I dont see how the REF is going to fare any better.

For its part, the UEF had the SF/A-7 Chimera, which can mount 9 long-range missiles. Thats 5 more than the SF/A-5 Bat and 3 more than the VF-1 Valkyrie, YF-4 (Fury), VF/B-5 Condor or VF/B-9 Beta. There is also the simple fact that the UEF in the 2nd Robotech War fielded more Veritechs/Starfighters than the REF in the 3rd Robotech War.

I dont see how the REF would be anything but mauled by the Masters.

[Jefffar]

REF has two big advantages over the ASC:

1. SDF-3
2. Mobility.

ASC has two big advantages over the REF:

1. Numbers
2. Newer (yet strangely inferior) gear.

I won't say one could beat the RM's and the other couldn't, I just think it would have to be done a different way.

[Colonel Wolfe]

REF has two big advantages over the ASC:

1. SDF-3
2. Mobility.

ASC has two big advantages over the REF:

1. Numbers
2. Newer (yet strangely inferior) gear.

I won't say one could beat the RM's and the other couldn't, I just think it would have to be done a different way.

The REF's Advantages ova the ASC:

1) The SDF-3 is one Ship, with a Destructo-Beam. Every Masters mothership has The same style weapon.
2) Mobility, not Really, the ASC has nearly as Many Ships in its Final Offensive as the REf Sent back to Earth to remove the Invid. The ASc is Very Mobile

then...

ASC ova the REF.
1) True
2)Only by the RPG. (yes i knwo the RPG is God on this Forum, but by the animation the ASC Equipment Stands Strong Against a Superior Foe. The Masters Bioroids were Tougher then the Zent MEcha, and Used More Weapons (Drums and Sleds)then the Majority of Invid Mecha (which depends on Tri-claws (Primarily) and Palsma Canons (on some models).

you forget the 3rd Advantage: Diversity of Mecha and PA's
The REF is mostly Dependent on the Alpha-beta and Cyclones... thou Good only Cover so many jobs... The ASC has a Diverse Mecha Portfolio, and Can Combat the Masters on almost every front, the REF's MEcha are mainly advantageous in Space.

[Jefffar]

In reference to Mobility:

The entire REF is housed aboard space craft that traveled across the galaxy.

The bulk of the ASC is tied to a single planet and its orbital space.


In an REF-RM engagement, the REF could withdraw as necissary.

In an ASC-RM engagement, the ASC was stuck fighting from one of two positions, Earth and Moon.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

In an REF-RM engagement, the REF could withdraw as neccessary.

Actually...the REF is just as tied to its logistical base as the UEF in the 2nd Robotech War.....its just their logistics are spread out over a wider area.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well, also, this is if the REf was Defending the Earth, They could Withdraw. Then the Masters would get their Matrix back, and go Wreck the REF's Day with "Fully Operational Battle Stations!"

[Colonel Wolfe]

Perhaps if the REF came back in full force to completely reinforce the Southern Cross forces, instead of in trickles that just got slaughtered....

Had they Came back in Full Force, the Pincer Attack would have Crushed the Masters Forces. (Maybe not Crushed... but Soundly Defeated.)

unfortunatly... They didn't they were to busy Playin Hero on the other side of the Universe... and Left the Earth out to Die Twice.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Is it current canon that they were playing hero?

Well, in core Canon they Just decided not to come back, the Secondary canon sources places them off Playing hero, since it dosent Disagree with Core Canon, its good to assume they were off playing hero in "Sentinels" space, and letting its Humans on earth Die.

Edit:
2016 Preliminary navigational surveys are conducted with long-range advance scout vessels, laying the groundwork for the main Robotech Expeditionary Force.

December, 2022 SDF-3 launches and takes its position as the flagship of the Robotech Expeditionary Force, marking the official start of the "Pioneer" mission.
January, 2029 The Robotech Masters fleet arrives in the solar system and take up a position in orbit around Saturn. Shortly thereafter, contact with Earth's strategic orbital observation outpost, Space Station Liberty, is lost.

Responding to loss of contact with Space Station Liberty, an Earth fleet comes under attack from the (as yet unidentified) Robotech Masters' forces. Additional Earth forces arrive and the enemy fleet retreats after gathering battle data.


Well... the REF is gone for 6 years before the Masters Invaded. even with the Bogus 5-year Fold, the REF still had one year of communication with the ASC before the Mastersinvasion... yet no mention of a Sentinels war or Invid. W/o a 5 yeard fold what were they doing for 6 years? and what Kept them so busy that they Werent gonna come back to help defend the Earth? Not a War, the UEF Never mentions a war, nor Dose Major Carpenter when he returns...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

What Kept them so busy that they Werent gonna come back to help defend the Earth? Not a War, the UEF Never mentions a war, nor does Major Carpenter when he returns...

Actually...thats not technically true. In the Eulogy flashback video for Colonel Wolfe, it states that he helped in destroying 'many of the enemies encountered by Admiral Rick Hunter's expedition'. The Pioneer Expedition was involved in combat operations....but we can knock two potential enemies off the list: the Masters/Elders and the Invid. Otherwise the outcomes of the 2nd and 3rd Robotech Wars would have been different.

In all likelihood, the Pioneer Expedition fought the remains of Dolza's once mighty Grand Fleet. If they actually made it inside the borders of the Masters once massive empire, they are probably fighting warlords and separatists who decide to carve out their own realms. Everyone is fighting over the remaining stockpiles of protoculture. The Pioneer Expedition in fact would be seen as a mobile supply of protoculture and a juicy target.

[Zer0 Kay]

I disagree about the REF's main advantage. I think that the REF's main advantage would be:

Breetai.

Ohh that is a Post Fu chop to the Head?

[Zer0 Kay]

Well, also, this is if the REf was Defending the Earth, They could Withdraw. Then the Masters would get their Matrix back, and go Wreck the REF's Day with "Fully Operational Battle Stations!"

OK Emperor Palpentine

[Zer0 Kay]

Is it current canon that they were playing hero?

Well, in core Canon they Just decided not to come back, the Secondary canon sources places them off Playing hero, since it dosent Disagree with Core Canon, its good to assume they were off playing hero in "Sentinels" space, and letting its Humans on earth Die.

Edit:
2016 Preliminary navigational surveys are conducted with long-range advance scout vessels, laying the groundwork for the main Robotech Expeditionary Force.

December, 2022 SDF-3 launches and takes its position as the flagship of the Robotech Expeditionary Force, marking the official start of the "Pioneer" mission.
January, 2029 The Robotech Masters fleet arrives in the solar system and take up a position in orbit around Saturn. Shortly thereafter, contact with Earth's strategic orbital observation outpost, Space Station Liberty, is lost.

Responding to loss of contact with Space Station Liberty, an Earth fleet comes under attack from the (as yet unidentified) Robotech Masters' forces. Additional Earth forces arrive and the enemy fleet retreats after gathering battle data.


Well... the REF is gone for 6 years before the Masters Invaded. even with the Bogus 5-year Fold, the REF still had one year of communication with the ASC before the Mastersinvasion... yet no mention of a Sentinels war or Invid. W/o a 5 yeard fold what were they doing for 6 years? and what Kept them so busy that they Werent gonna come back to help defend the Earth? Not a War, the UEF Never mentions a war, nor Dose Major Carpenter when he returns...

Maybe they were of the beleif that the SC was sufficient. After all I dought the SC leaders were humble enough to ask for help.

[Zer0 Kay]

Is it current canon that they were playing hero?

Well, in core Canon they Just decided not to come back, the Secondary canon sources places them off Playing hero, since it dosent Disagree with Core Canon, its good to assume they were off playing hero in "Sentinels" space, and letting its Humans on earth Die.

Edit:
2016 Preliminary navigational surveys are conducted with long-range advance scout vessels, laying the groundwork for the main Robotech Expeditionary Force.

December, 2022 SDF-3 launches and takes its position as the flagship of the Robotech Expeditionary Force, marking the official start of the "Pioneer" mission.
January, 2029 The Robotech Masters fleet arrives in the solar system and take up a position in orbit around Saturn. Shortly thereafter, contact with Earth's strategic orbital observation outpost, Space Station Liberty, is lost.

Responding to loss of contact with Space Station Liberty, an Earth fleet comes under attack from the (as yet unidentified) Robotech Masters' forces. Additional Earth forces arrive and the enemy fleet retreats after gathering battle data.


Well... the REF is gone for 6 years before the Masters Invaded. even with the Bogus 5-year Fold, the REF still had one year of communication with the ASC before the Mastersinvasion... yet no mention of a Sentinels war or Invid. W/o a 5 yeard fold what were they doing for 6 years? and what Kept them so busy that they Werent gonna come back to help defend the Earth? Not a War, the UEF Never mentions a war, nor Dose Major Carpenter when he returns...

Of course that one year comm is assuming they have FTL comm.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

After all I doubt the SC leaders were humble enough to ask for help.

The animation states otherwise. Transport Squadron 85 was responding to the original attack on Space Station Liberty. That means someone sent out the distress call. Its unlikely the UEF High Command would have not authorized that.

Of course that one year comm is assuming they have FTL comm.

Eps. #38 False Start
Narrator: Space Station Liberty, Earth's only link to the Robotech Defenders that have gone out into the cosmos searching for answers to the puzzling riddle of protoculture.

Eps. #40 Volunteers
Dana (thinking to herself): Sure its important to have our hypercommunications equipment functional as soon as possible.....

I fail to see how the UEF lacked HyperComm as the series states that they have it.

[Zer0 Kay]

After all I doubt the SC leaders were humble enough to ask for help.

The animation states otherwise. Transport Squadron 85 was responding to the original attack on Space Station Liberty. That means someone sent out the distress call. Its unlikely the UEF High Command would have not authorized that.

There is a difference between sending an SOS out for local help and one out on the "hyper" net. Sure the station probably sent an SOS and was probably standard op. and would have done it even without UEFHC authorization. That doesn't mean that a Meglomaniacle Egotist is going to send a HyperComm SOS to a force he thinks he is better than.

Of course that one year comm is assuming they have FTL comm.

Eps. #38 False Start
Narrator: Space Station Liberty, Earth's only link to the Robotech Defenders that have gone out into the cosmos searching for answers to the puzzling riddle of protoculture.

Eps. #40 Volunteers
Dana (thinking to herself): Sure its important to have our hypercommunications equipment functional as soon as possible.....

I fail to see how the UEF lacked HyperComm as the series states that they have it.

OK that is all nice that still doesn't mean that it is instantanious. They probably have to open a fold field and send it through the fold space. If it took the SDF-3 5 years to reach Phantoma then it should take the signal just as long. Maybe the "hypercomm equipment" is a beacon like device that has fold capabilities and is sent to the last known coordinates of the fleet where it can reach the fleet. Who then put their response in and send it back.

Oh and I didn't say they didn't have it I said that it was assuming they had it. I guess they do. Now how long does it take.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

There is a difference between sending an SOS out for local help and one out on the "hyper" net.

God, you're gonna give me ulcers. For cripes sakes...

Eps. #47 Outsiders

General Leonard: You mean you came here alone? There's no more reinforcements coming from the SDF-3? Sorry, Major, but we were hoping for more substantial assistance than that. You must be kidding.

Major Carpenter: Im sorry, sir, but what it boils down to is that you cannot expect any further help from the Pioneer Expedition at this time.

Eps. #53 The Hunters

Narrator: In the next episode of Robotech, a battle rages between the Robotech Masters and the entire interstellar fleet of the United Earth Government.

Eps. #54 Mind Games

Narrator: .....The Earth forces were enhanced by reinforcements from hyperspace responding to a mayday from the original attack on Space Station Liberty.

General Emerson: You've been brought back here from your mission in deep space.....

OK that is all nice that still doesn't mean that it is instantanious.

Then how come there is a partially working HyperSpace Transciever on the Garfish in Ghost Town....a ship, that I might add came back during the 2nd Robotech War as per dialogue.

[Colonel Wolfe]

OK that is all nice that still doesn't mean that it is instantanious. They probably have to open a fold field and send it through the fold space. If it took the SDF-3 5 years to reach Phantoma then it should take the signal just as long. .

a 3-5 year Fold is completly Disproven by the Dialog of the Hanable's Officers.

his Comment was to the Effect of "I'll be sad to see our home for the last 15 years go down"

Robotech.com's Time line places the events in this order:

2015 Construction of Expeditionary Forces vessels continues in preparation for large scale mission to find the homeworld of the Robotech Masters.

2016 Preliminary navigational surveys are conducted with long-range advance scout vessels, laying the groundwork for the main Robotech Expeditionary Force.


December, 2022 SDF-3 launches and takes its position as the flagship of the Robotech Expeditionary Force, marking the official start of the "Pioneer" mission.

January, 2029 The Robotech Masters fleet arrives in the solar system and take up a position in orbit around Saturn. Shortly thereafter, contact with Earth's strategic orbital observation outpost, Space Station Liberty, is lost.

October, 2029: A ship from the Pioneer Mission arrives from deep space and is destroyed while ramming and destroying one of the Masters' motherships. General Leonard and Emerson are informed that they cannot expect any immediate help from the Robotech Expeditionary Force

Using the 15 year home, the Hanable would have Launched in Late 2014.... uing a 3 or 5 year fold senarios... it would have had to Launch in either 2008 or 2004... and would have had to Responded to the ASC's Distress Calls and folded in either october 2024 or 2026.... 3 or 5 years before the ASC requsted Such Help.

The Masters invaded in January and in October the Hanable arives in response... 9 months of Time Give plents fo Room for a 1-3 month Fold Senario and Message Delay senario, but not a 3-5 year Fold/Signal Delay.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Oh....forgot one more piece of evidence...

Eps. #61 The Invid Invasion

Marlene: All communications are normal and the signal from Admiral Hunter's flagship is 'Attack with first combat squadron immediately.'

Unless Hunter's flagship is really close by....its given that they have FTL comm.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Oh....forgot one more piece of evidence...

Eps. #61 The Invid Invasion

Marlene: All communications are normal and the signal from Admiral Hunter's flagship is 'Attack with first combat squadron immediately.'

Unless Hunter's flagship is really close by....its given that they have FTL comm.

that Bogus Rabid... Rick Issued hsi Orders 3 or 5 years before the Battle of Reflex point. he's just that Good.