What if the Invid came before the master?

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

If the UEF was at full strength then the Invid probably would have lost. I imagine that there would have to be, however, a counter-invasion from the Moon, Mars, Jupiter and Space Station Liberty. The arrival method of the Invid would pretty much ensure that they could land uncontested. However, once on terra firma, well, the technological edge that the humans have would pretty much end it for the Invid. There is also the probability that the UEF can field more troops than the Invid can initially as Sera does say that the 3rd Reclamation Force does have the numerical advantage.

[Shin Kenshiro]

I think the Earth forces would've stuck to a hit and run style fight, evacuating the major cities away from the invid (as the Invid tried a Rain of Death approach when they came, didn't they?) to prevent human beings from becoming slaves. I believe the Masters and the Invid would tear each other apart, and the UEF would stay out of the way until the others had torn each others throats out. Then the UEF could move in and crush both of them.

Had the Invid invaded first, I also think the Regis would've been killed and not fled. So we'd have been out the Robotech RPG book Invid Invasion.

[Ice Dragon]

The Invid would arrive before the Masters unless some set the spores of the Flower of Live free.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The Invid would arrive before the Masters unless some set the spores of the Flower of Live free.

I'm guessing you mean Wouldn't Arrive until someone set the Spore free, but the Animation/Dialog proves that not to be true.

According to Dialog, The Spores of the FOL were infesting the Matrix even before the Masters Arrived. The Masters Feared the Invid Sensor Nebula would detect the Spores in the SDF-1's Ruins and Come anyway.

Zor Prime Detonating the Masters MotherShip over the SDF-1 Ruisn did spread the Spores, but I believe the Invid would have came anyway. They Detected the FOL spores there, and were Mostlikely preparing to invade even before Zor Destroyed the Ruins/Matrix.

I Believe the Invid would have Showed up weather or not the Masters invaded/zor released the Spores. When Musica saw theFully Mutated Tri-flower FOL Clusters in the Ruins (Episode 58, Final Nightmare) She Freaks out b/c She knows the Invid Will Invade.

Bowie and Musica hide within the wreck of the SDF-1. The flowers have changed since Bowie’s last visit. Musica recognizes the blossoms at once and realizes that the Invid Flowers of Life have completed their mutation. Even now, the drifting spores are drawing the Invid to Earth across the cosmos. Bowie demands an explanation. Musica tells him: "The Invid are the enemies of both our people…The Flower of Life survives by feeding off the protoculture matrix." The young fugitives have found the factory everyone has been searching for, but it is too late to be of any use to earth or the Robotech Masters.

The Masters invasion was not the Cause of the Invid invasion, nor was Zor Primes actions. Zor Prime did try to Save the earth... but his Failure did not Damn it. The invid would have invaded no matter what.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The invid would still invade, but would find less FoL and that would give the ASC a fighting chance. Then hte Masters would show up, and would mount a raid to gater some FoL and the earth would become the battle ground for a three sided war.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Even if we go by the RPG numbers, if we go by what we saw in the animation, the Invid would be in serious trouble after they landed. The reason for this is simple: they hadn't evolved Shock Troopers or Armored Scouts yet.

Incorrect: as Per Robotech: Gensis- The Invid had the Shock Troopers as of the Death of Zor, Breetia Recieved his Face wound form a Annilation Disc, while saveing Zor fomr the Shock Trooper.

Surely its not a Primary canon Source, but it dosent disagree with what si shown in the animation.

[Colonel Wolfe]

My answer is correct relative to the two sources I gave in the context given.

Still Innocrect: Both the RPG and the Sentinels Animation places the Invid using fighter Scouts and Shock Troopers Druing the Sentinels war(as early as 2022), which is well before the Invid invasion.

The Sentinels Dialog also implies All the Invid use Inorganics to Soften up a planet before the True Invasion occurs.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I was using two things: the 100+million number from the RPG for the invasion of Earth, and the New Generation/Mospeada animation part of Robotech.

Highly unlikely that they had 100 million Invid that were active. Most of their race was said to be in hibernation. That means the Invid have serious manpower troubles....which is why Sera said they were outnumbered by the REF in the final battle.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I get berated every time I use Sentinels, novels, or comics as a source around here, so I thought I'd try a new approach and stay closer to animation.

But apparently I can't win.

I was using two things: the 100+million number from the RPG for the invasion of Earth, and the New Generation/Mospeada animation part of Robotech. That's it.

Most of the Animation of the Initial Invasions are Flashbacks and cannot be considred hard canon, as people Remember Inncorectly. Justy becasue Scott and Lancer have never Encountred a Pincer unit until late in the Series, doesnt mean it was not there at day one. Just because a Screen painting shows no Fighter Scouts, dosent mean there are not any there.
http://www.magicbicycle.net/alphavt/panshots/ep1c.jpg

The above Shot is fomr the opening of "The Invid Invasion" Episode. Somethign is Tearing the Crap out of the Carriers.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I was using two things: the 100+million number from the RPG for the invasion of Earth, and the New Generation/Mospeada animation part of Robotech.

Highly unlikely that they had 100 million Invid that were active. Most of their race was said to be in hibernation. That means the Invid have serious manpower troubles....which is why Sera said they were outnumbered by the REF in the final battle.

or Maybe the REf had Several Billion Troops and did out number the Invid. The RPg says 100 Million, Sera Says they are out Numbered, the only Logial Conlusion is the REF had more Units then the Invid.

Or they just mean the Humans out number them... Since over 70% of 6 Billion people survived the RoD... at least 100 Million peopel could have survived to the Invid era.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I honstly think the Fully Powered "pre-Masters invasion" would tear the tail out of the Invid.

its been Said before, after the ASC took casualties form the Invid's innital asault, the ASc would Regroup both in space and on Earth. The Invid did not Destroy any Space fortification on there initial assualt, and it is unknown if the Invid are affective at anymore then Low Earth orbit, using Swarm Tataics on Ships making a Approch.

With Reserves on Liberty & Aluce, and a Hyper-com to the REf, they would Quicky Orgonise a Fleet and Defeat the invid more effectivly before they got a stable foot hold on earth.

The FOl would be more Concentrated arounf the SDF-1 Ruins, the invid in turn would be more concetrated in north america, and May focus there initial attack solely on Northamerican cities.

[Comrade Corsarius]

I'll still give it to the Bug-Demons. Anywhere there was no flower, they atomised from space with weaponry that made the RoD look like a kid's spitball gun. Japan: Atomised, 100% fatalities. Scandanavia (the HQ for world government): Atomised, 100% fatalities. Europe:100% fatalities, The EBSIS: Very badly hammered, 98% fatalities (effectively 100% but I'm going on the book). China: Read EBSIS.

So, we have South America, where the flower grows well-ish, Australia, ditto, India, as above, and North america (assume Canada is too cold for the flower and also goes by-bye in the invid energy blast).

Surviving troops and mecha would not only be disoriented and despairing, but they would be disorganised and having to protect vital supplies etc from rioting civilians who would (rather rightly, I feel) think that the end of the world has come.... again. The Invid, with no moral obligation to any sort of humanitarian effort, or articles of war, or formal battle lines, or the international red cross, or William Proxmire (who probably would have campaigned against the formation of the SC and more dairy subsidies), would have rather effortlessly swept away any military resistance. Being uprepared as they were, Mecha and weapons using Flower Power would be death in waiting if they were ever used at all, and they would be used because they were better than any basic energy or fusion equivalents. Dana and her friends would be dogmeat, along with all of the SC who didn't ditch their weapons and run.

General Leonard would look out from his office in monument city to see the skies darken with Invid scouts and troopers, and say 'oh, now what?' before he died.

Humans are great on the point defence, but let's face it, the ASC would not have been up to it, no way, nohow. They barely fought the Masters off, do you seriously think they could have handled the Regis at the peak of her power?

[Colonel Wolfe]

I'll still give it to the Bug-Demons. Anywhere there was no flower, they atomised from space with weaponry that made the RoD look like a kid's spitball gun. Japan: Atomised, 100% fatalities. Scandanavia (the HQ for world government): Atomised, 100% fatalities. Europe:100% fatalities, The EBSIS: Very badly hammered, 98% fatalities (effectively 100% but I'm going on the book). China: Read EBSIS.


So, we have South America, where the flower grows well-ish, Australia, ditto, India, as above, and North america (assume Canada is too cold for the flower and also goes by-bye in the invid energy blast).

I wont debate the Casualties Rates from the RPG, its not supported by the Dialog and the amount of people in most areas.

Surviving troops and mecha would not only be disoriented and despairing, but they would be disorganised and having to protect vital supplies etc from rioting civilians who would (rather rightly, I feel) think that the end of the world has come.... again. The Invid, with no moral obligation to any sort of humanitarian effort, or articles of war, or formal battle lines, or the international red cross, or William Proxmire (who probably would have campaigned against the formation of the SC and more dairy subsidies), would have rather effortlessly swept away any military resistance. Being uprepared as they were, Mecha and weapons using Flower Power would be death in waiting if they were ever used at all, and they would be used because they were better than any basic energy or fusion equivalents. Dana and her friends would be dogmeat, along with all of the SC who didn't ditch their weapons and run.

The Invid did nbto Destroy any space Stations or Moon bases in there inital Invasion, Liberty survived the Invasion. The ASC ground forces would get wiped, but Space forces would Call for Reinforcements. The REf would Return eariler and the Invid would Lose Again.

General Leonard would look out from his office in monument city to see the skies darken with Invid scouts and troopers, and say 'oh, now what?' before he died.

nope, he Died at the hands of the Masters.

Humans are great on the point defence, but let's face it, the ASC would not have been up to it, no way, nohow. They barely fought the Masters off, do you seriously think they could have handled the Regis at the peak of her power?

Your Opion is highly Influnced by the Slanted RPG stats. The UEG fought of the Masters who were a Supeior Foe in every way to both the REF and UEG forces. The Invid were a bit tougher on there inital invasion, but they dont have the staying power of the Masters.

[Comrade Corsarius]

Dude, my opinion certainly is slanted by the RPG stats. It's the game I play, and that's about it. I love the TV series passionately, but this is the board for the game, so that's where I get my figures. Why on earth do you think I'm a stalwart for the EBSIS, something that doesn't even exist in concept in the TV series?

As for Gen. Leonard dying at the hands of the masters, I thought that this was a hypothetical for if the Invid arrived before the masters. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Oh, and so what if there were a couple of pesky little space bases? I think that the Invid made a mistake in not wiping them, but perhaps (with a greater activity and thus protoculture signature) they would not back in pre-masters time. You are right about sending a message to the REF, but I think that the REF would still take some time to get there, and at that time I recall that only a very small taskforce was available to go home to see what the masters were up to, which was then wiped out. I'd suggest the Invid would make even shorter work of that. The REF has it's hands rather busy at this point in time fending off the Regent.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Dude, my opinion certainly is slanted by the RPG stats. It's the game I play, and that's about it. I love the TV series passionately, but this is the board for the game, so that's where I get my figures. Why on earth do you think I'm a stalwart for the EBSIS, something that doesn't even exist in concept in the TV series?

As for Gen. Leonard dying at the hands of the masters, I thought that this was a hypothetical for if the Invid arrived before the masters. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Oh, and so what if there were a couple of pesky little space bases? I think that the Invid made a mistake in not wiping them, but perhaps (with a greater activity and thus protoculture signature) they would not back in pre-masters time. You are right about sending a message to the REF, but I think that the REF would still take some time to get there, and at that time I recall that only a very small taskforce was available to go home to see what the masters were up to, which was then wiped out. I'd suggest the Invid would make even shorter work of that. The REF has it's hands rather busy at this point in time fending off the Regent.

The Invid Came for the Flower of Life. the Flower of Life only mutated and became present on earth around 2030, had the Masters not invaded in 2030, the invid still would have invaded on the Same Dates they did invade. Quotes by Various Members of the Masters Foprces say the Invid

"Musica recognizes the blossoms at once and realizes that the Invid Flowers of Life have completed their mutation. Even now, the drifting spores are drawing the Invid to Earth across the cosmos."

"The Invid are the enemies of both our people…The Flower of Life survives by feeding off the protoculture matrix."

The Masters invasion and destruction were not the Cause of the invid invasion, it would have came no matyter what.

So no matter whats, The invid have to invade Post 2030. The UEG Forces can only be Stronger at this point then they were after the Masters invasion, Making both the ASC groupnd and Space forces a force to be reconed with.

The Invid are Drawn to the Flower of Life, not Protoculture. So t is unlikely they would attack moon base luna & Aluce or Space station Liberty. The Invid have no Capital Ships, and are only Sean to be Dangrous extreamly Close to earth. When the REF Folded in for the Fianl offensive, they Gathred bhind the Moon, and Lauched an Assault from a Higher Orbit then previous assault, and the invid did nothing to stop them until the Show of lights when the Regsis Ran for her life. So unless the Invid Exicute a Tranmustation to Energy, they have no Form of attacking Ships and Mecha very far form low earth orbit.

as for Leonard. he would have Dided in an Instant, as he was in a Major population Center, the Inital invid assualt would have killed him, possible in his Sleep. no looking out the window to see anything except maybe a Bling flash of the invasion.

[Colonel Wolfe]

This seems to be an interesting topic.

If the Invid were to invade first, the flavor of battle would have changed somewhat. Although the SC Armies would have been at full power, I do not honestly know if it would be enough to survive the orbital attacks as seen in the Flashback of New Generation.

Either way, it may not matter. Whether Invid or Humanity wins, the Robotech Masters would have faced a weakened foe. A great deal may change in politics, society, and beliefs when the Masters invade Earth. If the Invid were victors, Earth humans could come to see the Masters as liberators of a sort. The returning REF would have to fight the Tyrolian forces, a force that they seem to have more understanding of than the Invid (though I could be mistaken).

Should the Southern Cross be victorious over the Invid, they would still be too weak against the Robotech Masters. It is also likely that protoculture would be more available for the Masters to use once more, making their attacks far more devastating once they begin to resupply.

Such an alternate Robotech setting could liven things up for a future campaign.

The animation Show them assaulting many High population places, but Later Animations Show Strong human population Centers in North and South America, though batter and occupied New york, the City form lancers flach back in the Secret route, Though Destryed after Wolfe Falls Soilder Town, and Norris town in the Shadow of some messed up Mountians. I really thing the Invid holocaust was not as Sever as the Rain of Death. (Simply because Louis nicoles lives to see Shadow force)

for this What if, we move the Masters Retun back 4 years to 2034, and the Invid invasion stays the same year 2031.
by 2031 the Ajax would be in full production replacing the Logan for operations in Spcae. Even at stand down the ACS would have at least one Fleet on patrol in the System, and 3 Fully operational Space Bases, Moon base Luna & Aluce and Space station Liberty.
As Liberty is going to be in the new Series, we can assume it was not destroyed by the initial invid invasion. if they did not take out liberty, i doubt they took out either Aluce or Luna. Luna and Aluce play no major role in the origonalm invid invasion due to sever damage sustained in the Masters asaaults.

As this Invasion has the Flower of Life more concentrated in one area, the Invid would Concentrate there Assault on the Primary area it is as well as the soruounding populations. Goodbye Monument City, Dana & Company and Emmerson & Leonard... assuming they still are stationed there. The Initial Retaliation assault by the UEG forces in space would come almost Imediatly, Finding the Invid with a more concentrated force. the Victory comes if they can find a way to Eliminitae the Enemy from high orbit where the Enemy is weakest (The Clam ships seam to deposit the enemy at low orbit, where landing ships are hard pressed to fight back).

If the ASC forces are Dominate, The REF would return 6 months later to Reinforce/rebuild the Damaged earth, and help with Cleanup duty.

If the Invid Defeat them, the REF Returns and Faces a Simmiler series fo defeats as the did before. until the Masters invade. the MAsters Faceing an Old enemy will make Quick work of the Invid. uging Anilation attacks Simmiler to the one used on Newton & another city in the ASC era. If the Masters are Victirous over the Invid they get the Matrix back, and would basically be unstopable.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Colonel Wolfe Wrote:

If the ASC forces are Dominate, The REF would return 6 months later to Reinforce/rebuild the Damaged earth, and help with Cleanup duty.

An interesting variation, I did not consider what would have happened should the REF return before the Master's arrival.

I merely decided to "swap" the arrival times of the Masters and Invid on the timeline, it does show that timing may be critical for all parties concerned.

A Simple Swap wouldnt really be a Posibility due that the Invid are comming for the Flower of Life, which only Mutates during the Masters war. Postponing the Masters Attack perhaps even a year, Which would kind of be a Swap. (The Invid invaded a year after the masters, could move the master invasion to a year after the Invid 2032)

Even so, Full REF Reinforcements Could arive before the Masters. (Like the Invid arrived 6months to a year after the REF returned to back up the ASC against the Masters).

The Masters had Equal Sucess verus the REF & the ASC, a Combined Fleet of REF & Surviing ASC would be hard pressed to stop the onslaught of the MAsters thou...

[Jefffar]

Defintiely the arrival of the Invid first bodes well for the Masters, no matter what version of the story is told.

Without the large numbers of flower of life it's unlikely the invid group on earth would become as strong as it did prior to reflex point.

For those who include the Sentinals, it's likely the Regent's force of Invid would also come to Earth, putting all the Invid in one basket as it were.

The Masters (who wouldn't have had to fight the Regent if you use sentinals) would then be able to devastate the Invid forces on earth.

The REF would have either been anhilated by the invid, contributing to the RM victory, or they would fold in and get anhilated byt the RMs who now control the earth.

Of course, given the story nature of all this, the REF is fated to win, but that's jsut because theya re the heroes in a work of fiction.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Defintiely the arrival of the Invid first bodes well for the Masters, no matter what version of the story is told.

Without the large numbers of flower of life it's unlikely the invid group on earth would become as strong as it did prior to reflex point.

For those who include the Sentinals, it's likely the Regent's force of Invid would also come to Earth, putting all the Invid in one basket as it were.

If you include the Sentinels, the REF has either defeated him by 2031 or the Hunters are still helping to Stop him, while the REf returns under General Reinharts Command, to help the Devistated earth.

The Masters (who wouldn't have had to fight the Regent if you use sentinals) would then be able to devastate the Invid forces on earth.

The REF would have either been anhilated by the invid, contributing to the RM victory, or they would fold in and get anhilated byt the RMs who now control the earth.

The Masters Victory over the Invid is almost Assured. (Which is Funny, the ASC beat the Masters... if the MAster can stop the invid... and the full stregnht ASC can stop the Masters... wouldnt the ASC wipe the Invid.
Its entierly Possible the REF would arrive before the Masters.

a smaller Invid force on earth means the REF could be more Sucessful against the Invid. the REf was Annilaited due to the Fact they Waited 7 years to return to Earth (invid invade in 31, Lancer's Group returns in 38).

The REF woulrd Return in the Same force they did at the end of the MAsters Saga to any surving UEG Space craft in system, and the Support fo 3 Space Bases. Giving the a Heavbier Edge over a Much less entrenched enemy then the REF 10th Mars Division faced over Reflex point in 38.

of corse, given the story nature of all this, the REF is fated to win, but that's jsut because theya re the heroes in a work of fiction.

A Possible Time line for this Senario:

2012: Readings indicate the Location of the Lost Protoculture Matrix. a Small Force of 10 Motherships is sent under impulse Power to Investigate the location and Recover it.
2016: The UEG begins the Pioneer Mission.
2022: The SDF-3 Launches.
2031: July: An Unknow force Attacks Earth, The Assault is unexpected and Brutal. the Majority of Major Population areas are destroyed.
- UEG Forces under the Command of Cmnd. B.D. Andrews, Mount an Offensive, Using Reflex Missiles to Desimate the area of highest Invader Concentration.
December: 2031: REF Forces under the Command of Generla Reindheart Return to help the Reaming UEG Forces Re-take the Earth. The SDF-3's Fleetis sucessful in Destroying the Remaining Invid Forces.
-Rick Hunter and his Mercinary Allies wonder where the REF is... and why he's helping a bunch of Mutant freaks on the otherside of the Galixey while the earth is in danger.

October 2032- The Master Fleet Arrives, the Suprise assault is Moderatly Sucessful, They Acheive Destruction of the Hyper-Com. Attack on Moon base Luna & Aluce and Space station Liberty Render them Silent to the UEG/REf Fleet.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Its simple.

The Earth forces can win a war of attrition, though its in reverse in the 3rd Robotech War.

The UEF in the 2nd Robotech War has superior numbers, but inferior technology to the Tirolians. They keep the Masters fighting long enough for their power reserves to fail and so the Earth forces win.

The REF in the 3rd Robotech War has superior numbers of soldiers and technology to the Invid, but not enough to reclaim the surface. The Invid have a superior overall population number, but most of their race is in hibernation. The REF wins the logistical race by dint of the fact that the Invid cannot wake enough of their people up in time to ensure their own victory.