What do the Zentradi really know?

[Colonel Wolfe]

The More i look in to the Zents, i find there to be many Paradoxs about there Existance:

1) many Sources say They Cant Repair their Mecha & Ships but Khyrons ships are rebuilt and repaired by them for his assault on Macross City.
2) Fought the invid but have no anti-invid Technology. (unlike the master Invid-fighters)
3) know the location of the Master home world 7 they they are a Mixxed-gender Mircronian society.
4) but are Shocked by Human culture and its Mixed-gender Society.
5) Though the Know about the Master home wolrd. Provide no Information to the UEG about the Masters Ships & Mecha Designs
6) Though is has been place in secondary canon that they have fought the Invid (Breetias Face Scar is from a Shock trroper). They once again do not Provide any recon to the UEG about them.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I'd consider the fact that the original source the characters never knew about the others.... the invid meetings don't really occur until some time later. Any zents who fought the invid Died aeons ago..

Incorrect: Dolza and Breetia are placed Fighting the Invinf in the Comics. you cant use the Logic of "since Robotech is made form 3 diffren animation sets"... that it dosent have to hame a solid Canon.

Robotech is not Macross + SDC: Southren Cross + GC Mospeda. it has its own Canon and the Origonal Animes have No bearing on Robotech.

[Comrade Corsarius]

Perhaps they did, and we just don't know it, or perhaps inter-service rivalry between the intelligence arm of the REF and the GMP did not allow for that intel to be passed (the REF knows about the Invid, but I'd say they came as a rather short, sharp, shock to the SC. Thinking of which, I wonder what Gen Leonard's last thoughts were when he saw the skies fill with Shock Troopers and Armoured Scouts).

It is odd that from the info supplied by the Zentraedi that we would view the Masters as the main threat, and the Invid as a secondary one (thus the development of the REF to go meet the Masters, and the SC to stay home and protect the planet). In reality the Masters were a (nearly) spent force, so why would the Zentraedi believe that? Even with efficient propaganda, guys like Breetai and especially Exedore are smart cookies, and would have worked out that the masters have gone to seed a bit of late (you know, no empire that spans 3/4 of the galactic disc, nutty orders from whacko leaders who giggle a lot before their next protoculture snort, the abandonment of the Home World of the Masters, and consistant Invid victories all may have added up to a slight suspicion that the master's power was on the wane).

So no, I don't know why. There ARE inconsistancies, but I just choose to mostly ignore them when I can. Have another drink, and they will go away.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Perhaps they did, and we just don't know it, or perhaps inter-service rivalry between the intelligence arm of the REF and the GMP did not allow for that intel to be passed (the REF knows about the Invid, but I'd say they came as a rather short, sharp, shock to the SC. Thinking of which, I wonder what Gen Leonard's last thoughts were when he saw the skies fill with Shock Troopers and Armoured Scouts).

if the REF hid Information from the United earth government about a Potential Invader, they they are bigger Traitors to earth then i thought.

Leonard Died well before the Invid Came.

It is odd that from the info supplied by the Zentraedi that we would view the Masters as the main threat, and the Invid as a secondary one (thus the development of the REF to go meet the Masters, and the SC to stay home and protect the planet). In reality the Masters were a (nearly) spent force, so why would the Zentraedi believe that? Even with efficient propaganda, guys like Breetai and especially Exedore are smart cookies, and would have worked out that the masters have gone to seed a bit of late (you know, no empire that spans 3/4 of the galactic disc, nutty orders from whacko leaders who giggle a lot before their next protoculture snort, the abandonment of the Home World of the Masters, and consistant Invid victories all may have added up to a slight suspicion that the master's power was on the wane).

So no, I don't know why. There ARE inconsistancies, but I just choose to mostly ignore them when I can. Have another drink, and they will go away.

W/O the Sentinels you can Assume the Zentradi really had no Clue where the Master Were From. Gloval even said the RDf would have to Search for the Masters. if Gloval wasnt in the Know on stuff like that, no one was.


Everything in robotech is fine until you add the Sentinels.

[Lt. Holmes]

1) They could've learned mechanics and other technical skills from the humans they'd thrown their lots in with.

2) Do recall that the Zentradi ARE the Anti-Invid technology for the Masters. Any sort of problem that needed squashing, they sent in the Zentradi as a do-all military/police force. So what if the mecha isn't particularly well-suited to an enemy? You can always clone more Zentradi if you run out. The Masters were nothing if not calous towards their underlings.

3) Why would the Zentradi have any idea what the Masters are or their society? I suspect that of all the Zentradi, only the really High Command had any contact with the Masters, and maybe Exodore and Breetai (on rare occasion). Other than that, the common foot soldier would have no need to know of the Masters, only to know that they serve a purpose for their creators.

4) They're shocked because the Masters had forbidden them from such contact and inter-gender contact for many, many years. But all the programming and indoctirnation couldn't supress the natural urges that the Zentradi felt when they'd seen the humans in action with each other. They tried to pass these feelings off as a sickness or insanity as per their brainwashing, but it was just natural insticts waking up and roaring like a lion.

5) Again, why would they even know about the Masters' homeworld? That'd be like asking a newly-enlisted grunt what the passcodes to the Pentagon are. The average Zentradi only lives for five years due to combat stresses. Why would the Masters waste any time on something that wasn't expected to last?

6) Could be that they knew very little, except what their mecha looked like or what their tactics were. Most of the more advanced knowledge, the Masters' would've kept for themselves and not bothered to share with their Zentradi slaves.

[Colonel Wolfe]

1) They could've learned mechanics and other technical skills from the humans they'd thrown their lots in with.

2) Do recall that the Zentradi ARE the Anti-Invid technology for the Masters. Any sort of problem that needed squashing, they sent in the Zentradi as a do-all military/police force. So what if the mecha isn't particularly well-suited to an enemy? You can always clone more Zentradi if you run out. The Masters were nothing if not calous towards their underlings.

3) Why would the Zentradi have any idea what the Masters are or their society? I suspect that of all the Zentradi, only the really High Command had any contact with the Masters, and maybe Exodore and Breetai (on rare occasion). Other than that, the common foot soldier would have no need to know of the Masters, only to know that they serve a purpose for their creators.

4) They're shocked because the Masters had forbidden them from such contact and inter-gender contact for many, many years. But all the programming and indoctirnation couldn't supress the natural urges that the Zentradi felt when they'd seen the humans in action with each other. They tried to pass these feelings off as a sickness or insanity as per their brainwashing, but it was just natural insticts waking up and roaring like a lion.

5) Again, why would they even know about the Masters' homeworld? That'd be like asking a newly-enlisted grunt what the passcodes to the Pentagon are. The average Zentradi only lives for five years due to combat stresses. Why would the Masters waste any time on something that wasn't expected to last?

6) Could be that they knew very little, except what their mecha looked like or what their tactics were. Most of the more advanced knowledge, the Masters' would've kept for themselves and not bothered to share with their Zentradi slaves.

You using a common grunt as a Defense. The Majority if the Reactions i use and examples are from Dolza, Breetia and Exodor.

1) no doubt, but the Zentradi are on earth maybe 3 years, and have learned to repair Mecha and ships? it seams unlikely they went from Zero knowledgs to even basic Mecha repair in 3 years. espeically if self taught.
2) the Smaller Invid Mecha can Tear through Alphas, whihc are Lightyears better then Battlepods. The Invid are extablished to have used the Same Style of Mecha from the beginning of ther War with the Masters.
3) the Same Examples you used as rare contact with the mastes are the ones who are Shocked by humans.
4)sure, but the Main 3 people who witness the contact and are shocked by it, are the 3 who are said to have had the most contact with the Masters, Breetia even Serveed directly under Zor.
5) Breetia and Exodore When they became earth Loyal would have been expected to Give a Full Tactical debreifing of all tatical information. but Years after the Rain of Death, Gloval Says "you must search for the Masters homeworld". 9 years later, Exodore is giving a Full Debreifing on the Location of the Masters homeworld. if this was Information the first scout Ships sent out in 2014 came back with, I doubt Exodor a Former enemy, who is still given a bit of Distrust by the Common soilder would be giving these De-breifings.

[Borast]

Jumping in on this...as I recall...even though it is NEVER mentioned anywhere I can think of in the PBs books, Zent. ships can regenerate a significant amount of damage. I think I once heard about 10-20% of TOTAL MDC, although the major systems (space fold, sub-light, "main gun", etc) can not regenerate without putting into "port."

[Colonel Wolfe]

Jumping in on this...as I recall...even though it is NEVER mentioned anywhere I can think of in the PBs books, Zent. ships can regenerate a significant amount of damage. I think I once heard about 10-20% of TOTAL MDC, although the major systems (space fold, sub-light, "main gun", etc) can not regenerate without putting into "port."

IIRC, the Marduke Ships in MAcross2 do that.

even so, the Zentradi under Khyron rebuild a Downed Cruiser. fomr a piece of slag on the ground to a Ship that destroyed the SDF-1. The Repairs werent Pretty, but it got the job done.

[Svartalf]

The More i look in to the Zents, i find there to be many Paradoxs about there Existance:

1) many Sources say They Cant Repair their Mecha & Ships but Khyrons ships are rebuilt and repaired by them for his assault on Macross City.
2) Fought the invid but have no anti-invid Technology. (unlike the master Invid-fighters)
3) know the location of the Master home world 7 they they are a Mixxed-gender Mircronian society.
4) but are Shocked by Human culture and its Mixed-gender Society.
5) Though the Know about the Master home wolrd. Provide no Information to the UEG about the Masters Ships & Mecha Designs
6) Though is has been place in secondary canon that they have fought the Invid (Breetias Face Scar is from a Shock trroper). They once again do not Provide any recon to the UEG about them.

1) Is it not only REPAIR (as opposed to new construction) work done by voluntary of kidnapped human techs?

2) remember, they are a cheapo army, the Masters prefer to expend them like water than give them better stuff

3) & 4) maybe they haven't been in direct contact with RTM society ever since they themselvs became a separated genders group (or even long before that)

5) they may know the location of the place, but do they know what it's like?

6) recon? they may not have known the UEG would have any trouble with Invid, so felt it unneeded to talk about them.y

[Colonel Wolfe]

1) Is it not only REPAIR (as opposed to new construction) work done by voluntary of kidnapped human techs?

2) remember, they are a cheapo army, the Masters prefer to expend them like water than give them better stuff

3) & 4) maybe they haven't been in direct contact with RTM society ever since they themselvs became a separated genders group (or even long before that)

5) they may know the location of the place, but do they know what it's like?

6) recon? they may not have known the UEG would have any trouble with Invid, so felt it unneeded to talk about them.y

1) it could be, but Khyron wanted humans destroyed. As unstable as he was said to be i doubt he'd keep humans slaves.
2) Even if you consider you army expendable, they are still an Investment of Finite Resources. You'd at least want to make yout Forces on par with an enemy if you willing to put the time and resources to make them to fight your enemy.
3) & 4) by the Comics, Breetia was workin with Zor on Optera, he'd have some Idea about the Masters Culture, which is very simmiler to human culture. as well as the Mixxed gender society. but then He's cmpletly Shocked by Rick & Company and how the women dress diffrently.
5) The Comics Have the Zents Fighting along side Bioroids in battle verus the Invid. as well as Breetia working along side Zor. He wouls personally have Data on Mecha 7 Ships of the Masters.
6) The Zentradie Were Suposedly built as the Masters main Main line army, and the Invid are the Masters Main Enemy. if the MAsters Built over 5 Million War Ships to fight the Invid and police the Empire, The Zentradi would not Assume the Invid would never Threaten the Earth, and not tell them about the Invid.

you can get 2 conclusions"

1) All the "Loyal" Zentradi were Liers, they purposfully Mislead the UEG forces and did not Give them Information nessicary for defense of the earthfrom both the Robotech Masters and the Invid. Breetia in particular is most Misleading as he fought the Invid while Defending Zor, meaning he had information on both forces he did not give up to his UEF Allies.

2) of you stick Close to the Animation/Dialog and the Zentradi never fought the Invid, because they Never Mention them to their new Humans Allies. and They did not know where Tirol was, nor Ever Met the Masters Directly (Excpet maybe Dolza, who was not a Earth-Loyal Zent )

[Svartalf]

"by the comics"? Where is the Wolfe who was railing against all non-canon material gone?

From what I hear, the comics were pretty crappy and can be discounted.
And I refuse to take into account a source I have no access to anyway.

So, AFAIK, the Zentraedi never have been in direct contact with their Masters, except on a very limited basis (radio/video contact between the High Command and the Masters), and any presence of Zents on Optera happened at a time when no Master was there.

But you're right, if invid fighting was the main purpose of the Zentraedi, it's a tad weird they never mentioned it to the humans.
Since I don't believe that Breetai really wants to mislead his micronian allies, I have to conclude it means more molten lead to be poured into Macek's Arsch for not properly thinking out the integration of 3 series that were never meant to have anything to do together anyway.

[Svartalf]

We Can assume this however:

Any memories involving zor were erased from the Zent's heads... as part of an imperfect culture. It was after - CENTURIES later and Zents and Masters alike do not have infinite memories.

When you see Exedore's extensive knowledge of history, and the fact that much of it seems to be actual memories rather than book learning... that interpretation is lame

[drewkitty ~..~]

1) those zentradi that were doing the repaires were ones that had learned how to while working for humans.
2) they are anti-invid tech
3) you have to know were the home base to be able to protect it.
7) I have not seen any evidence that the Zent knew that the masters were a mixed gender soscety.
4) most of the zentradiee are very young and indontranated to live in gender seperate sosciety
5) Maybe the questions were not delt with during air time. They did provide the location so the REF could go there.
6)Agine this might of taken place off the air, most of the zent are very young, and they did help the REF, and while the older zents have experiences with the Invid they are limited to their own memories & verbal reports from others. so technical data, which most likely was passed onto the masters, was never a part of the information the zents saw.

[Colonel Wolfe]

"by the comics"? Where is the Wolfe who was railing against all non-canon material gone?

From what I hear, the comics were pretty crappy and can be discounted.
And I refuse to take into account a source I have no access to anyway.

Don;t Worry I'm still here... Just had to Change Tactis... Sometimes a War Hero has to do that to keep innocent people safe.

Using Mckinney's Logic, There is only one Robotech. For Discussion on this boards I've been FLamed and berrated for wanting to Stick very Closly to what is seen in the 85 Episodes Animations. So I am applying a new Tactic, using Every avalibe Canon Source (Excapt Defind Atlernte univers Comics ie Clone & morcioal(sp?)) in an attempt to either Prove them False, Illogical or planly Stupid. but Also used them to Illistarte points that are Highly Debatable. As the Disagreement between "To the Stars" and "Sentinels" on Finding the MAsters Empire.
Thou the Comics were bad, they all are Offical HG materials, (except on Latin-american comic which was not licensed).

This Thread is an Attmept to disprove some Flawed Logic about the Zentradi as well as some debatable points about them. Are the Zents Really an Anti-invid force... when they Fail to mention them AT (both in macross and Sentinels). It would Seam the Masters Forces Have more Experince Fighting the Invid, as Cabell know an Extensive amount about Invid Tactis & The Masters are Worried about the Invid getting the Matrix (if Dolza knew about the Matrix, wouldnt he be worred about the Invid as well? Since his forces were suposed to fight them). The Masters also Deploy the only Anti-Invid Mecha before the REF's Shadow technology. Since the Master Built the invid to fight the Invid (or did they?), Anti-Invid equipment would be present in their Forces (Sorry the Logic that "they are anti invid tech" is Bull crap, The Invid Wreck the REF's Supeior Mecha, they would Waste Battle pods by the Hundred).

I think the Masters fought the Invid, & the Zents Never Encountred the Invid while they were the the Maters Expidentary Force, Mainly because the Invid encounters Pre-date the Creation of the Zents. and The Invid Hid for Aeons waiting for signs for the FOL to appear.

Watch this Video, its Fan made, but it Illistartes some interesting parts of the Creation fo the REF. http://homepage.mac.com/skullsquadron/REF_Movies/iMovieTheater15.html

[BookWyrm]

The More i look in to the Zents, i find there to be many Paradoxs about there Existance:

1) many Sources say They Cant Repair their Mecha & Ships but Khyrons ships are rebuilt and repaired by them for his assault on Macross City.
2) Fought the invid but have no anti-invid Technology. (unlike the master Invid-fighters)
3) know the location of the Master home world 7 they they are a Mixxed-gender Mircronian society.
4) but are Shocked by Human culture and its Mixed-gender Society.
5) Though the Know about the Master home wolrd. Provide no Information to the UEG about the Masters Ships & Mecha Designs
6) Though is has been place in secondary canon that they have fought the Invid (Breetias Face Scar is from a Shock trroper). They once again do not Provide any recon to the UEG about them.

Try this;
1--In general the typical Zentraedi Soldier initially does not know how to repair their technology; they were designed to be 'disposable'/recyclable. As they became more their own race (this may have been jumpstarted by exposure to the Micronian/Terran culture), the buried/supressed capabilities left them by their Tyrolian genetic donors came more to the fore. While not on par with the Tyrolians, they do have some capability.

2--Again, they were created initially as miners for the monoploe ore of Fantoma, but then rammed through military skill implantation & thrown at the Invid like a hammer against a nail--from across the room. Why try to develope anti-Invid weapons when all the need to do is keep hitting the foe with everything they already have? Besides, the Robotech Masters kept all the good toys for themselves.

3--The RT Masters separated males & females because they wanted to control them better. It's much easier to clone, grow & age a LOT of Zentraedi in batches than wait for the comparably slow gestation time of natural childbirth & normal aging. The Homeworld was basically known to exist, but only those in Command (Fleet commanders, ect.) had the exact co-ordinates. Makes it easier to keep the grunts from running away.

4--They were shocked by Mixed Gender Society because (a) they only knew the Separated one all their existances (at least several thousand Terran years), (b) they were taught that mixing the genders would lead to defeat (worse than death for the Zentraedi) and (c) this is the way the RT Masters planned it.

5--To the Zentraedi, Fantoma is their "Homeworld", while Tyrol is the Masters' homeworld, like comparing the suburbs of New York to the mansions of Beverly Hills. Basically the same, but vastly different. Also, why give away all the secrets? The Zentraedi only knew their ships, not the Masters' ships & Mecha. Once again, the Masters' kept all the good toys.

6--Deliberate 'need-to-know' information protocols. The Terrans & Zentraedi may be allies, but trust is far harder to establish. Always have a hold card up your sleeve for when the time is right.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Try this;
1--In general the typical Zentraedi Soldier initially does not know how to repair their technology; they were designed to be 'disposable'/recyclable. As they became more their own race (this may have been jumpstarted by exposure to the Micronian/Terran culture), the buried/supressed capabilities left them by their Tyrolian genetic donors came more to the fore. While not on par with the Tyrolians, they do have some capability.

2--Again, they were created initially as miners for the monoploe ore of Fantoma, but then rammed through military skill implantation & thrown at the Invid like a hammer against a nail--from across the room. Why try to develope anti-Invid weapons when all the need to do is keep hitting the foe with everything they already have? Besides, the Robotech Masters kept all the good toys for themselves.

3--The RT Masters separated males & females because they wanted to control them better. It's much easier to clone, grow & age a LOT of Zentraedi in batches than wait for the comparably slow gestation time of natural childbirth & normal aging. The Homeworld was basically known to exist, but only those in Command (Fleet commanders, ect.) had the exact co-ordinates. Makes it easier to keep the grunts from running away.

4--They were shocked by Mixed Gender Society because (a) they only knew the Separated one all their existances (at least several thousand Terran years), (b) they were taught that mixing the genders would lead to defeat (worse than death for the Zentraedi) and (c) this is the way the RT Masters planned it.

5--To the Zentraedi, Fantoma is their "Homeworld", while Tyrol is the Masters' homeworld, like comparing the suburbs of New York to the mansions of Beverly Hills. Basically the same, but vastly different. Also, why give away all the secrets? The Zentraedi only knew their ships, not the Masters' ships & Mecha. Once again, the Masters' kept all the good toys.

6--Deliberate 'need-to-know' information protocols. The Terrans & Zentraedi may be allies, but trust is far harder to establish. Always have a hold card up your sleeve for when the time is right.

1) "Some Ability" and "Cannot Repair" are to diffrent things.
2) The "Miners" hostory is Disproven by Breetia. if Bioroids are not a Main line army, why have a "Invid Fighter Bioroid" if Bioroids are only police mecha.
3) & 4) Dolza, Breetia & Exodor are the ones Shocked by the Humnas, but Dolza would have had the most contact, Breetai Directly Servered Zor and Exorode De-breif the Humans on the Masters homewolrd and Society in the Sentinesl. Thei si Direct knowledge about the Masters society at one point, yet Shock that such a society exixts at another. These dont add up to me.

5) okay, if the Zents were policing the Masters Empire, they would have to encounter the 5km wide Mother ships on radar or around Tirol. If they did not know whos ships they were they would most likely attack.

6) "Holding a card up your sleeve" when said Card can destroy you new allies is one sure way to breed Mistrust and hatered among your new allies toward you, and Find your self taking the Long walk out the Short Airlock.
Rick: Whats do you mean you knew about the invid the entire time?
Exodor: well, we didt feel you needed to kow about them, and kept the information form you.......
Rick: Do you realise the Earth was invaded by them.... and another Holocaust killed 90% of the Earth population? you kept vital information about an Enemy that was worse then the Zentradi by 100x!
Exodor: no my Problem, they only Killed Humans and non-loyal Zentradi... the Information was need to know, now you need to know.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Its clear from the series that:

1.) The Zentraedi can effect repairs to ships, mecha and so forth. Just because they are disposable doesn't mean that you waste them needlessly. We know this because Khyron's crew was SEEN repairing the Monitor-class warship. Never once do we see humans that are helping them. One would imagine the UEF would have mentioned if people capable of repairing warships began disappearing.

2.) The Zentraedi never fought the Invid. Neither Dolza nor the Regiss mentions the other. Breetai and Exedore never inform the UEG of them or General Leonard would not have acted the way he did when he learned of their existence in The Invid Connection.

3.) The Regiss, in Dark Finale says it was the forefathers of the Invid whom were engulfed in the Shadow. That means she was not a witness to this event, nor was she alive. The Shadow is a term she associates with the Masters.

4.) The Regiss also states that they were forced to abandon their homeworld twice in their recorded history.

5.) Dolza tells Breetai, Exedore, Rico, Konda and Bron that at one time the Zentraedi's ancestors had intersexual relations as well as being micronians.

6.) Exedore affirms Gloval's statement in Khyron's Revenge that the ancient Robotech Republic, according to legend, collapsed some 500,000 yrs ago at the hands of rampaging Zentraedi.

7.) Zor was not a triumvirate and obviously predates this evolutionary development

8.) Zor Prime says his (meaning Zor's) society is dead.

9.) The Masters, in eps. #29 The Robotech Masters are in the recesses of another galaxy. They speculate that the either Disciples of Zor have found the abandoned protoculture factory and begun a new offensive against the Masters' Zentraedi or the Invid have beaten them to the punch and control the production of protoculture. One of the other Masters state that the second option is not possible as it is unlikely that the Invid know the whereabouts of Zor's fortress. This conversation takes place a full 2 yrs after the destruction of Dolza's Grand Fleet.

10.) The Masters state that they must investigate the situation as they believe that they have found the location of Zor's battlefortress. Dolza, obviously, was not in direct contact with the Masters, otherwise they would know for certain they had found the ship. This means that there is little, if any contact with the Masters.

11.) The Masters state they know full well the capabilities of Zor's ship.

12.) Zor was killed while seeding a planet with protoculture spores (aka spores of the Flower of Life). Zor had secrets to Robotechnology that he took to his death. They were obviously not among the documents that the UEG translated.

13.) Gloval tells Lisa that they must find the homeworld of the Robotech Masters. She even asks where it is, an question Gloval cannot answer.

14.) The Masters have Zor's Memory Matrix and his DNA pattern on files. However, none of the clones they have tried, except for Zor Prime, have survived.

All these facts paint an interesting picture:

Zor died at the hands of the ramaging Zentraedi and his fortress was abandoned. This would be about 1/2 million years ago. At some point in the past, probably near past, it was recovered and either launched to Earth purposefully or accidentally.

The Disciples of Zor are not some small branch of terrorists as they are believed to have started a new offensive against the Zentraedi. That means they are a coequal power to the Masters. It is likely that they were the ones who either found the ship or captured it. Somehow the Masters got Zor's DNA and his Memory Matrix, but you have to have viable tissue to make the magic work to recover his memories.

The Invid are not a threat to the Masters per se, as they have gotten the tar beaten out of them at least twice. They fled to another galaxy and are hiding from the Masters.

The Zentraedi are not quite as stupid as people believe. However, by that same token, they are not initimately aware of the Masters society and are on the outside of it. They appear to be the forces that operate outside the borders of the Masters worlds conquering new worlds. They obviously fought the DoZ at one time, probably in the distant past, unless the DoZ are Zentraedi themselves.

[Colonel Wolfe]

500 , 000 years ago is a long time, and we all know the Zents are reprogrammed constantly - Memories can be designer made, go watch any Cyberpunk era movie..

Yes, but Rabid is Quoting only Series-Dialog for his events, Which means these can be Established as facts. Only Secondary Sources have the Zents being "Reprogramed".

Unless a Quote from the Masters can be Dug up saying they Programed the Zents, it can be Discounted.

also Exodor is Quoting Myth:

"ancient Robotech Republic, according to legend, collapsed some 500,000 yrs ago at the hands of rampaging Zentraedi"

He could be mistaken, the Actual time couls be 50,000 or 500 or 1000 or even 500 to 1000 years ago.

Personaly I feel it 50,000. Long Enough for the Master Empire to decay, Lomg enough fot them to Build over 4 Milllion warships and Long enough for the Real dates to become Confused to the current generations. Really, what can be said about Humanity 50,000 years ago? or even 5,000 With any certiny?

[Colonel Wolfe]

I think that it really is 500,000 years since one of the Songs from Macross II is " Scream of 500 , 000 years" or some such..
but if you're going to go for some atlantis thing..


What if... the Robotech Masters and the Nightlords came from the same society! : )

Well... Macross 2 isnt Offical in the Macross universe (its part of an Alternate universe Set up by Macross do you remember Love, and are both considred to be Motion pictures in the MAcross universe, DYRL, staring Minmay, and Macross2 "Lovers again" its sequel) ... I wouldnt Quote it as Solid canon Macross, Much less anythign robotech.

I'd not use anything mentioned in any Macross Product as a Source for Robotech.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I'd not use anything mentioned in any Macross Product as a Source for Robotech.

Why not? I'm using Tank Police...

er...

*cough*

Seriously, though, did you really not like Macross Plus as a standalone anime (the four part OVA, that is)?

Plus is Great, but its not Robotech. The comics that places Robotech chracters on "Eden" made me sad not because it crossed Robotech in to macoss, but was so bad it was a Disgrace to both Plus and Robotech.

I've actually only seen the Macross: Plus Movie... It missing some footage, but still was a Very good Anime, but its still no Robotech.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I found this Quote form Scott....

"This may come as a surprise to you, but I couldn’t care less whether the Invid survive or go the way of the Zentraedi. I’m not just going to roll over and play dead!"

Sounds Like the Zents bit the big one. Since Scott was bron out in space, and never went to earth til his crash there.. Maybe the Genocidal Destruction of the Zents was at the hand of REF forces... He seams to have a Rather Biggioted attitude toward Aliens.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Khyron is a symptom of a much larger problem - the strictures on what NOT to do were breaking down long before they got to Earth. Even Azonia appears to have had a male on board her ship as a bridge officer (and makes you wonder just what he was doing there ). On the whole, the sweeping generalities may appear true - but individuals might break the rule of thumb.

Dude.. I know some Pertty butch women.... Maybe it Looked like a Dude... but shes 100% Womans under that crew-cut and Mens uniform.

often had numbers pulled in 10, 100 even 1000 times off from what the printed source material was in Japan.

yea, and Years are Relative to the Planet your on... 500,000 years on Mercury are much less then 500,000 on earth.... well maybe... to lazy to look it up.

Stan, dose MAcross: Zer0 also deal wiht the Mystic stuff liek 7 has in it?
if so I'm gonna remove it off my List of Anime to look for.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Khyron is a symptom of a much larger problem - the strictures on what NOT to do were breaking down long before they got to Earth. Even Azonia appears to have had a male on board her ship as a bridge officer (and makes you wonder just what he was doing there ). On the whole, the sweeping generalities may appear true - but individuals might break the rule of thumb.

Dude.. I know some Pertty butch women.... Maybe it Looked like a Dude... but shes 100% Womans under that crew-cut and Mens uniform.

Baratone voice and all?

Unfortunatly....