The Krugatch Sonic Cannon: too tough?

[Colonel Wolfe]

now this nice little Machine from Lancers Rockers.... quite a Behemoth.... quite so the the Point its Main body MDC is 1/3rd the Maind body of the SDF-1..
22 attacks
2 per round on the level of a Boomgun + a Stun effect... to everyone in a 50ft wide beam 1 mile long...

and it Mounts tons of Lasers... (Something uncommon for the invid)

and your suposed to "Play" this thing to death with your Instrumecha...

hey Taff, can you do a report on this Behemoth?

[The Artist Formerly]

now this nice little Machine from Lancers Rockers.... quite a Behemoth.... quite so the the

Point its Main body MDC is 1/3rd the Maind body of the SDF-1..

22 attacks

2 per round on the level of a Boomgun + a Stun effect... to everyone in a 50ft wide beam 1 mile long...

and it Mounts tons of Lasers... (Something uncommon for the invid)

and your suposed to "Play" this thing to death with your Instrumecha...

Yep.

hey Taff, can you do a report on this Behemoth?

You got it. First one of the 3.0 series.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Ugh....

yet another thing I consider as 'proof' that Macross 7 was inspired by Lancer's Rockers.

[Lt. Holmes]

Actually, I don't mind Lancers Rockers in the concept/science end. The Insturmecha just use sound in the same way that lasers use light, so it's not TOO much of a stretch to believe in that.

Macross 7 on the other hand...

You got it. First one of the 3.0 series.

You're deliberatly going out of your way to make certain that your posts are the first ones I check in the morning, aren't you? I mean, you've got me waiting with baited breath for the VHT, Alpha/Betas, Cyclones (naturally enough ), your RDF notes, and now this sucker? You don't fight fair

[Colonel Wolfe]

Ugh....

yet another thing I consider as 'proof' that Macross 7 was inspired by Lancer's Rockers.

This si nothing like the Protodevlin.... and the instrumecha are nothing like Basara playing his Valk......


well...

i cant support the second part...

[The Artist Formerly]

You're deliberatly going out of your way to make certain that your posts are the first ones I check in the morning, aren't you? I mean, you've got me waiting with baited breath for the VHT, Alpha/Betas, Cyclones (naturally enough ), your RDF notes, and now this sucker? You don't fight fair

Fair fights are for suckers and dead men.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I was thinking.. Ted Nugent invinted the Instrumecha.... he's a Millitant Pro-gun Musician... Screw Lancer, I want the "Nuge" leading my Instrumecha band!

[Colonel Wolfe]

Damn it, if we keep this up, I might actually want to play a Lancers Rockers game...

if you need a bit more Convensing.. Ted wanted me to show you this.

http://www.scarmyofone.000k2.com/scross/Tedsays.gif

[The Artist Formerly]

I was thinking.. Ted Nugent invinted the Instrumecha.... he's a Millitant Pro-gun Musician... Screw Lancer, I want the "Nuge" leading my Instrumecha band!

[Colonel Wolfe]

All this Lancers Rockers has me thinking of Doing a "Rock City" source book....

Rock City- RT Book 14
* Hundreds of new Instrumecha.
* Progression of the Robotech Timeline to the year 3000
* Stick Figure art!
* The final Evoultion of the Invid
* The return of the SDF-3.
* The Trial of Team bernard!
* The Final evolution of the Invid... Telli-tubbies
* 126 Paged
* Written by "Ted Nugent"**
* Comming in 1998!


**"Ted nugent has nothing to do with this book... it is written by Jonathan Wolfe

[Comrade Corsarius]

Fair fights are for suckers and dead men.

Hey! That's my line!


As for the Sonic Cannon... Well, I suppose you can 'play it to death'. There's some sort of Resonance that I think means you can parry it (or some such) with your instrumecha. Highly unlikely and over-influenced by 1980s-era video clips.

While it's Robotech RPG canon (ahaha. bad pun)., It's probably the one thing (especially about the EBSIS) that I just wish wouldn't exist. I explain it away by saying it was built by an invid-sympathising splinter group of the EBSIS and you can be glad that the REAL EBSIS (in this era with it's main power base in South America) didn't get their hands on the Krugatch.

As for too powerful, has anyone seen the Super Gallant Sonic Lance lately? hello? As powerful as a boom gun, anti gravity field for ease of use, compatable with the cyclone (for all that lovely armour and auto-dodge), a force-field, and stackable bonuses for instrumecha?

oh, and it fits in the boot of your car, broken down into three innocuous and innocent looking devices. Try doing that with a boom gun.

*picks out the three SC soldiers on detatchment with his unit* "you, you, and you: Panic. The rest of you, come with me"

[Lt. Holmes]

As for the Sonic Cannon... Well, I suppose you can 'play it to death'. There's some sort of Resonance that I think means you can parry it (or some such) with your instrumecha. Highly unlikely and over-influenced by 1980s-era video clips.

Actually, the science behind that isn't too bad. All you'd need to do is modulate the insturmecha so their sonic blasts are exactly 180 degrees out of phase and have close to the same amplitude/modulation as the sonic cannon. Since they're both byproducts of the same research, it's not a stretch of the imagination to assume that the sonic cannon is just a bigger, badder, uglier version of the insturmecha.

Note that because of the power of the sonic cannon, the insturmecha couldn't TOTALLY compensate for it, but they could reduce its effects.

[Colonel Wolfe]

While it's Robotech RPG canon (ahaha. bad pun)., It's probably the one thing (especially about the EBSIS) that I just wish wouldn't exist. I explain it away by saying it was built by an invid-sympathising splinter group of the EBSIS and you can be glad that the REAL EBSIS (in this era with it's main power base in South America) didn't get their hands on the Krugatch.

nah, it is definatly the end result of years of Anti-Unification feelings in the Ebsis... Side with the Invid... they nearly killed humanity once... best way to stop the Unification of earth... is have everyone dead. as of 2046.. the EBSIS is so broken up... and is full of Invid sympathizers and collaborators is just Krugatch, is the largest & best organized. but it is not alone... over 50% of the Ebsis is just like this group.

*picks out the three SC soldiers on detatchment with his unit* "you, you, and you: Panic. The rest of you, come with me"

Thats funny, comming form someone who's allied to Invid Sympathisers. the ASC fought the Invid til the last man.. can the same be said for the Ebsis? not by RPG Canon.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I do believe that the EBSIS was wiped out in a few minutes of the invid arrival. The ASC could put up a fight because they were scattered by the Masters.

Quite inncorect. only the Eurrassian EBSIS forces were taken down within moments...
The South American EBSIS Hid Like cockroaches and Imediatly joined up with their new overlords... Lancers Return in 2034 was met by a EBSIS sympathizers looking to kill any thing that apposed their new masters.

heres a good photo of some EBSIS members and a Invid Mauler Looking for Lancer: http://www.magicbicycle.net/alphavt/panshots/ep11b.jpg.
Lucky Lancer had no Issuse with dressing up like a Chick... (or betraying humanity for that matter)

[Comrade Corsarius]

There were plenty of us who stayed loyal to humanity.

Can Col. Jonathon Wolfe say the same?

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The ASC could put up a fight because they were scattered by the Masters.

Not quite true. The Army of the Southern Cross put up a spirited fight simply because the Invid were outgunned. It was the Invid numbers that eventually did in almost the entire United Earth Forces a mere 3 months after the Invid Invasion. There is some belief that forces in the United Earth Navy sailed for Antarctica as well as United Earth Air Force units stationed there anyway. The ruins of the Antarctic Grand Cannon (Cannon IV I believe) served as a base after it was partially rebuilt following the first Reflex Weapon used against UEG territory in 2006.

[Colonel Wolfe]

There were plenty of us who stayed loyal to humanity.

I'm afraid you in the Minority...

Many E.B.S.I.S. splinter groups are known to be collaborators with the Invid. The E.B.S.I.S. soldiers are used to infiltrate towns and villages in search of resistance fighters. When freedom fighters are uncovered, the E.B.S.I.S. warriors notify their Invid masters and an extermination procedure is engaged. If the group of freedom fighters is small or not well armed, the Invid's E.B.S.I.S. pawns will attack with human troops and Soviet style mecha. If the resistance force is powerful, they are accompanied by their Invid masters.

As payment for their betrayal, the organization receives food, supplies, Invid protection, mecha and vehicle repairs, ammunition, and a certain amount of freedom of activity, but most important, the traitors attain power. They do not see themselves as slaves or trained attack dogs working for an inhuman master, but as the human elite who have carved themselves a place of power among the new rulers of the world, the Invid.

The E.B.S.I.S. survivors soon learned that they were no match for the aliens and, after several costly battles, gave up the fight. Quickly, dissension in their ranks gave rise to the formation of several splinter groups, most became sympathizers and collaborators.

Sound a heck alot more Like the Majority threw in with their new masters, and sold other humans up the River to get personal power... you "Com-rads" would have done the Same to you, If you Loyalty to Earth is truthful.
Unlike your comparison to....

Can Col. Jonathon Wolfe say the same?

yes he can.... Until his death, he Saved the lives of over 10,000 innocent peopel for the price of a few soilders... Soilders sign up to give their lives to protect peopel who can nor protect them selves.... Wolffe knew the Invid were unstopable.. so he did something wrong for the Right reason... not to Give him self a Leadership position in the Invid.. but to Save humans.
as wolfe told Rand when compared to the common Ebsis Traitor.

"You don’t understand, kid, My efforts keep this whole town alive."

heres a Picture of the town he was working to Save...
http://www.magicbicycle.net/alphavt/panshots/ep8d.jpg
heres a Picture fomr after his death..
http://www.magicbicycle.net/alphavt/panshots/ep8u.jpg
well... a picture of the Invid force goin to Salughter everyone to a man.
(at least 9 Shoch troopers... and 15 Scouts... as the picture only has a portion of the total force in it)

[Comrade Corsarius]

I realise you've named yourself for col wolfe, so you're going to have a biased opinion of him, the same as I hold the EBSIS as a shining example of humanity (well, humanity without Flower Power anyway). I've not watched the 'wolfe' episode enough to comment on it, suffice to say that he seemed a bit like a wreck and a sell-out, 'buying' time with lives. Of course, thousands were slaughtered in the end, the dreadful sword of damocles that the traitor had to hang under for so long.

With the Robotech RPG being written by americans, and at the tail end of the cold war to boot, I could expect nothing less than those 'darned commies' in the EBSIS to be 'eeeeeeevil, self serving, and easily broken into sympathy with the invid'. Seriously, I don't know for sure. Seeing as the RPG never really focused on the EBSIS (lancer's rockers being a de-facto sourcebook for them), no-one really knows what sort of numbers. You may be right, or not. We never really knew anything about the Merchant Republic (except that their battloids could not turn 180 degrees at the waist) or the EBSIS republic after them (except that it 'flourishes' in south america, apparrently not under Invid rule. This alone makes me think of them as being 'freedom fighters', or at least minor enough to be ignored by the Invid). I'd say that certainly without protoculture to draw attention to them, any loyalist EBSIS troops could carry on the fight for decades, perhaps even to the point of building mecha, something that not a lot of people got to do after the Invasion.

Anyway, we'll both argue till we're blue in the face. Let's just have fun in character and leave it at that.

And I read what you said to Taffy.... I still DO think the Regis is a hottie! And I'm not mind-controlled! (lol)

[The Artist Formerly]

And I'm not mind-controlled! (lol)

Wait untill the Politbreau finds out about that.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I realise you've named yourself for col wolfe, so you're going to have a biased opinion of him, the same as I hold the EBSIS as a shining example of humanity (well, humanity without Flower Power anyway). I've not watched the 'wolfe' episode enough to comment on it, suffice to say that he seemed a bit like a wreck and a sell-out, 'buying' time with lives. Of course, thousands were slaughtered in the end, the dreadful sword of damocles that the traitor had to hang under for so long.

With the Robotech RPG being written by americans, and at the tail end of the cold war to boot, I could expect nothing less than those 'darned commies' in the EBSIS to be 'eeeeeeevil, self serving, and easily broken into sympathy with the invid'. Seriously, I don't know for sure. Seeing as the RPG never really focused on the EBSIS (lancer's rockers being a de-facto sourcebook for them), no-one really knows what sort of numbers. You may be right, or not. We never really knew anything about the Merchant Republic (except that their battloids could not turn 180 degrees at the waist) or the EBSIS republic after them (except that it 'flourishes' in south america, apparrently not under Invid rule. This alone makes me think of them as being 'freedom fighters', or at least minor enough to be ignored by the Invid). I'd say that certainly without protoculture to draw attention to them, any loyalist EBSIS troops could carry on the fight for decades, perhaps even to the point of building mecha, something that not a lot of people got to do after the Invasion.

Anyway, we'll both argue till we're blue in the face. Let's just have fun in character and leave it at that.

And I read what you said to Taffy.... I still DO think the Regis is a hottie! And I'm not mind-controlled! (lol)

even befor I adopted the nick col_wolfe (7 years ago) I thought of what wolfe did as the Wrong things for the right reason... the invid occupation was Long... Longer then the RPG even had it (The "Old coots" episode.. some guys in their 60 who returned with the REF in 2030... if 5 years passed.. these guys were 55+ piloting Veritechs and manning Ships? man the REf was desperate... more liekly they were in their 40's when they returned.)
New generation was the first part of Robotech i saw all the episodes for. Scot and his Friends be come tainted by the enemy and in the end Kill other humans to save their new ally... then i find out they were killing "Drones" whihc had no pilots.. but its Still destruction of property.

The RPG has the Anti-invid Ebsis as the minority. the "flourish" in South america because the Invid dont see them... Literally.. non-potoculture powerd mecha gave them a ever so small advantage... but in the end they still found the Invid to massive an opponet. before 2032, the Ebsis may have been 1005 for defense of earth... but after the Devestation of the invid assult (Worse then the Rain of death in some areas) and the Long occupation, Things Changed.. peopel on Both Sides got Tired of watching their Friends and Allies Die... better to join the enemy so you can hopefully save a few lives... Just the RPG paints the Ebsis as doin it for Personal power, Which may not be the case in 100% of the Pro-invid Ebsis, but its Still enough that its Watents a "Most of" in the RPg text.

[The Artist Formerly]

It wouldn't be a stretch for the EBSIS to have loaded it up with lasers.

Am I the only one who just envisioned Dr. Evil being at the head of the EBSIS?

"Is it too much to ask to get some friggen Iigaa with some friggen laser beams on their heads?"

[Jefffar]

I get the impression that most of the EBSIS troops did want to fight the Invid.

A few high casualty battles changed the ratio of those wanting to fight and those wanting to colaborate.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I get the impression that most of the EBSIS troops did want to fight the Invid.

A few high casualty battles changed the ratio of those wanting to fight and those wanting to colaborate.

Oh, The ones who did want to Fight the Invid did fight, Many were Killed... many sold to the invid by their Former Allies, By 2046, after the Long occupation.... your more likely to encounter a Pro-Invid Ebsis... then you would an Anti, Even the Anti-Invid ones would be Shy to reveal them selves.. for fear of Capture and death.

[Lt. Holmes]

And a very real fear at that, I might add. Of course, with their non-PC mecha available to them, that'd give them one heckuva advantage.

[Colonel Wolfe]

hmm, not really. unless they kepp it shut off all the time.. if it moves the invid will slaughter it. if it moved and is PC powered... the Invid slaughter it better.

[Jefffar]

I reread the passage that Wolfe reffered to, I get the impression that it's the background informationt he characters are given by one of the NPCs rather than absolute authoritative from the authors. So this leaves room for possible bias of a character who comes across as anti-EBSIS in other passages. Additionally it's unlikely the NPC really knows the details of what is going on in South America.

But the phrasing of the passage is not explicit enough to say that it's the NPC's words or the author's background text. So it can go either way the GM wants it too.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I reread the passage that Wolfe reffered to, I get the impression that it's the background informationt he characters are given by one of the NPCs rather than absolute authoritative from the authors. So this leaves room for possible bias of a character who comes across as anti-EBSIS in other passages. Additionally it's unlikely the NPC really knows the details of what is going on in South America.

But the phrasing of the passage is not explicit enough to say that it's the NPC's words or the author's background text. So it can go either way the GM wants it too.

I run in to the Same problems in Robotech chats else where... Weather Scott and Lancer's Dialog can be accepted as Series Truth.(Dealing with the Pincer Command unit being a new Design as of "Annie's Wedding")

For the Author to put the Text their, it has to have some bit of Crediblity to it. unless their is a Secondary source that Directly Contradicts it. it can eb accepted as fact & Canon for the Book as printed. I cant Find where the Text is refuted in Lancers Rockers, and it is the Only Source book dealing with North america this late in the Time line.
as for NPC's being Anti-Ebsis... I figured they were this way only becasue the Ebsis is mostly Invid Loyal.

This is just my Opion, which is supported by the Text. even so, in 2046, the Invid were on the other side of the Galaxy, doing god knows what to another innocent race.

[Jefffar]

I cant Find where the Text is refuted in Lancers Rockers, and it is the Only Source book dealing with North america this late in the Time line.
as for NPC's being Anti-Ebsis... I figured they were this way only becasue the Ebsis is mostly Invid Loyal.

This is just my Opion, which is supported by the Text. even so, in 2046, the Invid were on the other side of the Galaxy, doing god knows what to another innocent race.

My point is that, while your opinion is supported in the text, it's not a strong, unequivocable support.

The text seems to be from the point of view of an NPC who probably has no direct experience with what he's talking about. It's not like he makes regular trips to South America to get opinions from former EBSIS soldiers. Additionally, as a pro-REF fellow, his potential anti-EBSIS feelings could origionate from before the Krughtach joined with the Invid.

I don't have a slam dunk to down your opinion, but there is some room for reasonable doubt.

Personally, I think that while the majority of the EBSIS wanted to fight the Invid, the causlties int he early battles probably changed the feelings of many surviors. Additionally, the Krughtach in particular, seems to have a low sense of honour, and probably the way they "proved" themselves to their new masters was to set up the bulk of the other EBSIS forces for destruction. When the dust settled the Krughtach would be the largest group of armed humans in the Quadrant (if not the planet).

It should be noted, that in the African sector, where the EBSIS was heavily engaged fighting rogue Zentreadi for almost a decade and certainly maintained a large presence there, there is no mention of a large group of Invid sympathisers. I think that this can be interpreted as meaning the EBSIS troops in the African Sector have not had a large scale defection to the Invid side, further contributing to the idea that the Krughtach betrayl was an isolated (but significant) incident.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I cant Find where the Text is refuted in Lancers Rockers, and it is the Only Source book dealing with North america this late in the Time line.
as for NPC's being Anti-Ebsis... I figured they were this way only becasue the Ebsis is mostly Invid Loyal.

This is just my Opion, which is supported by the Text. even so, in 2046, the Invid were on the other side of the Galaxy, doing god knows what to another innocent race.

My point is that, while your opinion is supported in the text, it's not a strong, unequivocable support.

The text seems to be from the point of view of an NPC who probably has no direct experience with what he's talking about. It's not like he makes regular trips to South America to get opinions from former EBSIS soldiers. Additionally, as a pro-REF fellow, his potential anti-EBSIS feelings could origionate from before the Krughtach joined with the Invid.

I don't have a slam dunk to down your opinion, but there is some room for reasonable doubt.

I re-read the section, it is "Player Background" unless the PC's are just arrived on earth, or are complete morons, this should be established knowledge to them, it only Mentions Townsend because his concersn deal with the Recent Activity of the Ebsis, the it goes on to give some details about this. Since it Includes information on the South American Ebsis, it can be assumed it is not Direct information form someone who has never been there. the Fact they Included this information in the section means it is "OOC" history for the Characters, not some Dialog Townsend is giving them. The Whole book is badly Written.... how can one confuse a 33 ft mecha with the ASC Battaloids which are barely over 20.

had it Said Townsend is concerned about the EBSIS... then gave no Background about them, it would be even worse then it is.
Wehn he wrote this book, he Didnt Divide the Section well. You begin the Adventure in the "Back ground" section... it dose an Aweful job really explainnig anything, as its all mixed in the Middle of Adventure text.

It should be noted, that in the African sector, where the EBSIS was heavily engaged fighting rogue Zentreadi for almost a decade and certainly maintained a large presence there, there is no mention of a large group of Invid sympathisers. I think that this can be interpreted as meaning the EBSIS troops in the African Sector have not had a large scale defection to the Invid side, further contributing to the idea that the Krughtach betrayl was an isolated (but significant) incident.

Is their Mention of the Ebsis in Africa in Lancers rockers? I thought that was heavily Detailed in NWO and RotM?/

[Jefffar]

I re-read the section, it is "Player Background" unless the PC's are just arrived on earth, or are complete morons, this should be established knowledge to them, it only Mentions Townsend because his concersn deal with the Recent Activity of the Ebsis, the it goes on to give some details about this. Since it Includes information on the South American Ebsis, it can be assumed it is not Direct information form someone who has never been there. the Fact they Included this information in the section means it is "OOC" history for the Characters, not some Dialog Townsend is giving them. The Whole book is badly Written.... how can one confuse a 33 ft mecha with the ASC Battaloids which are barely over 20.

had it Said Townsend is concerned about the EBSIS... then gave no Background about them, it would be even worse then it is.
Wehn he wrote this book, he Didnt Divide the Section well. You begin the Adventure in the "Back ground" section... it dose an Aweful job really explainnig anything, as its all mixed in the Middle of Adventure text.

Is their Mention of the Ebsis in Africa in Lancers rockers? I thought that was heavily Detailed in NWO and RotM?/

Like I said, the text could have come from Townsend, or it could not. It's never really made explicit.

The EBSIS in africa are mention in the Southern Cross book. Apparently when the EBSIS began their African expansion in the late 2010's they found the Congo Zentreadi were more numerous and better organized than anbody had realized. In fact, the EBSIS move intot he sector had disrupted the time table of a planned worldwide strike of Zentreadi insurgents. As aresult the Zentreadi Uprising of the following years was not as intense because there wasn't the planned level of global co-ordination. Additionally the pressence of the EBSIS and their allied Zentreadi forces helped further tip the scales of battle in the Quadrant. After 8 years of warfare the EBSIS/UEG forces would be triumphant allies in Africa.

I can't think of any reason for the EBSIS to leave, and the EBSIS move into South America makes a lot more sense if they use Africa as a staging ground.

In Invid Invasion there's a description of a large, well-organized resistance movement. It's unlikely that movement would be as large and orgamized if they had to fight the EBSIS and the Invid. Instead it's more likely that the EBSIS forces in Africa were either:

1) Immediately annhilated . . . but if the Invid swept down on Africa that throughly, the other resistance group would not have survived

or

2) The EBSIS personel are a part of the resistance movement.

Of course that latter part is admittedly my supposition, but the logic works.


In my own running of Robotech the EBSIS and ASC forces remain allies at least in the African sector. The EBSIS forces work primarily to maintain civil order ont he continent while the ASC forces are tasked with defending the sector in case of an Alien attack.

In general, my own version of Robotech has the EBSIS and UEG drawing into a much closer relationship during the 2020s. After the Master's War, the ASC forces are heavily depleted while the EBSIS forces remain relatively fesh. That's the point when the EBSIS begins a more agressive expansion, overrunning South America with the purpose of "bringing peace and order" to a continent ravaged by internal strife (which was started by EBSIS agents). had the Invid not arrived when they did it was likely that the EBSIS and ASC would start an active war against each other for control of North America, Japan, and the Pacific.