Guns and hounds...

[drewkitty ~..~]

Bad Idea.....that Nat AR is part of what makes it so NB have to go h2h wih them.

[GhostKnight]

They aren't partially immune from firearms, but they do have armor that you have to roll hits above (16 I think). The just take double damage from magic.

[The Baron of chaos]

It's the strenght of the hounds. Removing it and they are nothing special.

[Specter]

I remove the penalty when characters are using armor peircing bullets. Game smart and aim for the head.

[Jefffar]

Leave the 50% damage reduction, ditch the AR rules (the Hounds, Hunters and Kin are the only SN critters with a natural AR in the game, meaning they don't take damage from anythign that doesnt' roll over 18 to strike - that's too much).

I have two words for attempting to engage a hound with gunfire: Fully Automatic.

Incidently, I play Hounds as beign nothing more than a hollow suit of Darkmetal. Shooting holes in them, even their head doesn't really help because there's no vitals to damage.

I rule a De-Cap works because it damages the containment of the armour enough to break the enchantment animating the Hound. But jsut about anything else doesnt' work. I've had hounds continue to attack players after the hounds have lost arms or legs and taken fiendishly deep torso wounds.

[Borast]

Tyciol, that sounds suspiciously like a WW vampire!

[drewkitty ~..~]

...

I rule a De-Cap works because it damages the containment of the armour enough to break the enchantment animating the Hound. But jsut about anything else doesnt' work. I've had hounds continue to attack players after the hounds have lost arms or legs and taken fiendishly deep torso wounds.

[quote=MPQftHG]Tis but a scratch........Its only a Fleash wound......I'll bite your legs off. [/quote]

[dark brandon]

I'm thinking of removing the hounds partial immunity to firearms, you know, the 50% damage thing... Any thoughts on this?

They still have an AR of 13 which I think is enough. I'd remove the 50% if you plan on letting any humans in the group play and want to give them a fighting chance.

[dark brandon]

I'm thinking of removing the hounds partial immunity to firearms, you know, the 50% damage thing... Any thoughts on this?

They still have an AR of 13 which I think is enough. I'd remove the 50% if you plan on letting any humans in the group play and want to give them a fighting chance.

I was under the impression that the AR was higher, time to look at the books again I suppose. I'm setting up to run a campaign right now, funny thing is, in all the campaigns I ran in the past none of the PC magic users read the spell description for enchant weapon very closely.

Well normal everyday hounds it's 13. I checked before I posted.

[Jefffar]

What do you think I am?

Of course if there's no hand, it makes it difficult to hold onto that dark blade spear. Hack of a leg and their mobility is sevrely comprimised.

I just don't let those sorts of injuries stop a hound.

But then again, I avoid using the hounds at all unles there's agoing to be a major throwdown . . . which typically means the players screwed the pooch anyway.

[Shawn Merrow]

Whether or not they have blood is debatable. Palladium hasn't been entirely consistent on the point. In my game they DO NOT have blood or anything internal.

I dont feel like getting the page number right now, but I am sure its in the first book it is stated that they do have "blood" like substance.

In Between the Shadows on page 29 it mentions the Hounds bodies do not vanish when destroyed in the Nightlands. It then mentions that Cortez's Cannibals drink the blood of Hounds and Hunters to gain powers.

[Shawn Merrow]

Whether or not they have blood is debatable. Palladium hasn't been entirely consistent on the point. In my game they DO NOT have blood or anything internal.

I dont feel like getting the page number right now, but I am sure its in the first book it is stated that they do have "blood" like substance.

In Between the Shadows on page 29 it mentions the Hounds bodies do not vanish when destroyed in the Nightlands. It then mentions that Cortez's Cannibals drink the blood of Hounds and Hunters to gain powers.

Yep..

And the main book clearly pointed out that they were hollow shells. Like i said, Palladium has been less than clear.

How could a line about drinking there blood not be clear they have blood?

[Borast]

Ageis...I'm pretty sure that unless you enchant the firearm to CREATE it's own bullets, it will still only do half damage.

So, enchant six .45 shells to teleport back into the chamber, and the pistol to "recharge" itself (powder wise).

[Jefffar]

Pretty much.


Palladium unforunately has lots of self contradicting books.

One of my great complaints about what is otherwise a wonderful game.

[Borast]

Maybe they ARE hollow shells..."here." But, in the nightlands, they have organs and meat...

After all Stormbringer and Mornblade are demons who's default form in Elric's dimention are those of heavily rune etched blades.

[Jefffar]

So why do you limit yourself to an out of date anti tank weapon like the 90 mm?

Why don't you enchant a Crusader?

[Jefffar]

Crusader si the (now cancelled) next generation 155 mm howitzer for the US Army.

It can fire 6 rounds in such a pattern that all 6 round land on the target simultaneously.

[Marcethus]

ok how can one say that a thinking feeling creature has no blood?
and really with an AR 13 hounds aren't that tough. but I would rule that that the AR isn't applied if the attack is magic. Non magical attacks would have to penetrate the AR magical wouldn't since they are weak vs magical attacks of any sort.
Now on the issue of them having blood or not the main book says nothing of them not having it. Infact it says that they are "They are beleived to be magical constructs, similar to Golems of legend. Unlike Golems, however, Hounds do feel emotions and have desires and lusts. Regretably, those desires are all related to pain and fear. Hounds live for the hunt and slaughter. They are the ultimate warriors and trackers, relentlessly following their prey and then playing with it for a short while before finally destroying it without mercy"

Nightbane Main book PG 161

Now tell me how such a creature is a walking suit of armor that has no blood?

They only appear to be a walking suit due to the armor that is grafted to them.

[Jefffar]

Ya ever here of a Tectonic Entity?

[Marcethus]

Yes but entities are quite a bit different than Hounds. Entities are energy beings where as hounds are living creatures.

and Pardon if my previous post came across a bit rude or angrily I did that at 6am and was having a major case of insomnia

[Jefffar]

By most of the qualifications of life (breathes, consumes, grows, reproduces) a fire is alive. Does it have blood?

To me a Hound is an energy being that is bound into a shell. To "kill" a hound one must destroy the containment vessel.

[Sentinel]

Crusader si the (now cancelled) next generation 155 mm howitzer for the US Army.

It can fire 6 rounds in such a pattern that all 6 round land on the target simultaneously.

Did you mean perhaps, 'subsequently'? 'Simultaneously would imply they were all fired at the same time in order to land that way.

[Jefffar]

The Crusader's Fire Control Computer calculates the proper angle and power to put behind each shot so that it can fire 6 rounds as fast as its autoloader can handle, and each round, flying a slightly different path to the target, arrives at the same time.

[Jefffar]

[Nikkie1476]

I remove the penalty when characters are using armor peircing bullets. Game smart and aim for the head.

That's what I do.

[Sanctu]

After reading all of this I've decided to drop the Hound's A.R., keep the half damage from normal weapons, use full damage from supernatural hand to hand attacks, and double damage from spells, talents, and artifacts.

This sounds good, although I question one piece of this. Shouldn't Nightbane hand-to-hand be included in the double damage category? I though tthey were included in this, anyway. The claws, spikes, big crystal fists, and so on of the Nightbane all being one of those things the hounds are vunerable to.

Somewhat in line with the book, but better in my opinion. Oh, and hollow shells with NO stinkin blood.

I'm with you. I wondered about the whole blood thing myself when I read the bit about them. It seemed rather lame to add that just for that.

I'm curious, do you include that particular sub-plot of the group getting powers from dead hounds in the Nightands? Were I to include such a thing (and I might not, I'd have to consider it carefully), I'd decide how long the body stays until it "rots" or becomes useless, and the ritual woudl be needed to disolve it into goo, which they would drink, or perhaps make it so they could consume it.

[Marcethus]

If you were going to do anything I would suggest lowering their AR.
Hounds AR and 50% Immunity to damage are whats makes them so scary.

Keep in mind you can circumvent things.
I ruled Dark blade Weapons Ignore ARs and theres always the spells to enchant guns.
(I remeber a game where we went out and hired a high level mage to make enchanted guns for The Beachhead)

Hate to break it to you about the Dark Blades but the already do ignore any non Magical Armor's AR. but since hounds AR SN Personally I don't think it would ignore their AR But than again Darkblades are inherently magical because of the process to forge the metal.

[Judas]

Yeah the Darkblades can cut through anything non-magical ignoring it's AR, thats why they can cut through tanks and the like. The full rules are located in the Nightlands Book, in The Typhoon section detailing the Darkore mines.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Hmmm I dont remeber it saying anywhere that Dark blades ignore AR.
I just rember they do ok damage, are heavy, and can cut through things like a hot knife through butter. So I assume that the intension was to make them ignore AR.

Nightlands, p. 78: "Darkblades will cut through any Earth steel or material like it was butter... In all cases, ignore the A.R. of the structure or creature, except those made of magic and the body armor of the Nightlords; A.R. applies to these exceptions."

Actual the hounds DO have blood. In the Between the shadows book on the spook squad section there is a miltary group at beach head who drink the hound's blood on a daily bases. They make it into a magical ritual hwich gives them some supernatural powers but slowly turns them into monsters them selves...

Yes, but that directly contradicts page 183 of the Nightbane main book: "The Hounds, Hunters, and Hollow Men are animated shells with no blood..."

[Beelzebozo]

I think I like the idea of them bleeding. Even robots bleed 10W-40. Golems or whatever you'd call Hounds and their kin (not the Hollow Men constructs, which are completely unrelated) are creepy already, and having something like that bleed is even better.

[Sanctu]

Could be a typo.

I prefer to hope that all the crap about cortez's cannibals was a gigantic typo. It sucks.

Agreed. I think the case of a different author writting about all those l33t troops in the Nightlands. He missed or ignored that minor detail of the Hounds and Hunters not having blood. The C people simply don't exist in my game.

[dark brandon]

AND, I think, most of us agree, that's the way it should be, since the Hounds are supernatural minions or serious baddies. They're supposed to be scary and dangerous.

I agree they are supposed to be scary and dangerous, but not impossible to kill. Against any normal human, 2 hounds could wipe out an entire platoon of men. I could see 100 hounds wipe out an entire city. This falls into the realm of "splugorth" for me. These hounds are so powerful, what is keeping the dark ones (I forget their name at the moment) from just completely overwhelming any and all of earth's defences? Nightbane? Just as gardians/vampires/wanpiers are all minor in numbers.

Personally, either the high AR or the 50% damage reduction is enough. With supernatural strenght and high HP they are still a serious threat, but now 2 cops empting their revolvers in one might actually take it down, but with one cop probably being killed.

[Gomen_Nagai]

revolvers have six shots
.38s's do 3d6
.357 do 4d6
...Power rounds add +d6.
11 x 12 (for 2 rounds is 132 damange down to 66 to Hound
No hound is going down
14 x 12 is 168 divided by is 84. Again Not a single hound is going down.


If you're going to be bringing Revolvers Against Hounds, Get Magical ones.

[Specter]

Incidently, I play Hounds as beign nothing more than a hollow suit of Darkmetal. Shooting holes in them, even their head doesn't really help because there's no vitals to damage.

I don't care if they bleed or not. What on a hound allows them to see? To smell the supernatural? Is it on their heads? If so... a sniper rifle with armor piercing bullets can blind them. And, A blind hound is a hound that is out of the game.

[Beelzebozo]

Agreed. I think the case of a different author writting about all those l33t troops in the Nightlands. He missed or ignored that minor detail of the Hounds and Hunters not having blood.

Except that it's the *same* author, the Grand Master And God CJ Himself. Maybe he forgot about the "not bleeding" single line from the first book and decided it was better if the Hounds et al could indeed bleed.

Therefore, let's go with the larger chunk of text. They bleed. Maybe not much, but some.