Spam in a Can, "Squishie" Blender (Fun with SN Str

[Dead Boy]

I came across this while working out some 99% canon knock back rules for Bear a minute ago (actually nerfed from actual potential), and my jaw hit the floor. On pg. 26 of the RGMG are the rules for how far a supernatural chacter can throw item X based on how much the character can carry. Pg. 24 gives bonuses to how much you can carry (+30% for every +5 PS above 30). Page 31 tells how much damage a normal SDC person in MDC Body Armor takes when knocked back on impact (1D6/20 feet). Now, let's put this all together!

Say you have a fairly strong character with a SN PS of 36. Never mind that he can do 5D6 MD on a regular punch and 1D6x10MD on a power punch. That's nothing compared to what you can do by just grabbing some guy and throwing him as far as he can. A 36 PS lets you carry 2,340 pounds (36 X 50 = 1800 x 1.3 = 2340). That lets you throw a 2340 lb object 36 feet. But what if it's only 200 lbs, like a human in a suit of armor? Then the lighter object would go porportionally farther. Right? Roughly 11.7 times farther. So the guy could be tossed 421 feet. Divide that by 20 for the landing damage (421 / 20 = 21.05) and on impact the "squishie" in a can takes 21D6 SDC straight to his person! That's an average of 73.5 SDC in Damage!!!

Pray you make your Roll with Punch/Explosion/Impact roll or in most cases we're talking about Instant Death!

[Dr. Doom III]

SDC person in MDC Body Armor takes when knocked back on impact (1D6/20 feet).

That's from the impact that knocked him back not the damage from landing when knocked back.

[Jefffar]

Which, according to Newton's Laws, should be equal.

[Dr. Doom III]

Which, according to Newton's Laws, should be equal.

Ever catch a baseball?

Is that equal to gitting hit on the hand with a baseball bat?

[Jefffar]

I know a guy who broke his hand catching a baseball.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I know a guy who broke his hand catching a baseball.

gotta hold your wrist right.

[Dead Boy]

SDC person in MDC Body Armor takes when knocked back on impact (1D6/20 feet).

That's from the impact that knocked him back not the damage from landing when knocked back.

How can you call yourself a Rules Lawyer when you don't even bother to look the rules up?

The "Impact" part of a physical blow (regardlss of whether there's a knock down or not) is 1D6 SDC for every 20 MD of the physical hit. The 1D6/20 feet is strictly from the landing at the end of the trip, and that's what I used. Think I'm wrong? Then show me the rule that calculates how far people are knocked back given X amount of MD taken, (Here's a clue: There is no such rule).

[Jefffar]

Back to physics: Mathematicalyl, the energy int he baseball as it comes off the bat is the same ammount of energy that the bat would transfer to your hand if it hit your had directly.

This is why when a pitcher gets hit by the ball right off the bat, he's usually in a pretty bad way.

But, if it's a long, high hit, the ball will loose a lot of energy going up to gravity and comming down to air friction. While on its way down it gains energy again due to gravity, it is still loosing energy due to air friction. So ultimately there is less energy in the ball when that fielder catches it at the wall - but only slightly. If you're sitting in the seats at straight away centerfield and a home run lands on your head - you need to go to the doctor.

So why does it hurt more if you get clobbered with the bat? My guess is inertia. When you are catching the ball, your weight (and theerefor your inertia) is about 200 times that of the ball. teh result is you brign the ball quickly and easily to a halt. Now when the bat smacks you, it's not jsut the bat's inertia, it's also the inertia of the guy swinging the bat. That inertia is more or less equal to yours - so you can't control the impact as easily as you could in the case of the ball, so you get a good smacking.

Of coruse, if you're as trained and practiced in stopping a bat with your hands as most people are traiend in practiced in stopping the ball, you probably will be a lot better off too.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unfortunately, the books don't seem to have rules for throwing light objects farther than their maximum distance.
It isn't always true in real life either... I can throw a baseball a lot farther than I can throw a penny.

[Dead Boy]

Unfortunately, the books don't seem to have rules for throwing light objects farther than their maximum distance.
It isn't always true in real life either... I can throw a baseball a lot farther than I can throw a penny.

A penny is so light it has a hard time overcoming wind resistance. People are a lot heavier and are less prone to have that problem. As to the range thing, I see no reason why that can't be inferred to be within the rules. It follows the scientific rule of foot-pounds, and as Kev has always said, "Common sense is the chief rule" (paraphrased).

On a side note, I'm surprised at you guys. Well, I'm not surprised at all to see Doom doing his normal song and dance of negativity... but I am that no one seems to give a darn that there is credible rule canon backing up the idea that a character with Super Natural PS can instantly kill virtually anyone in EBA or power armor. It's just *Grab* *Chuck* *Splat* And here I though that people would be interested to see that right there in the book for anyone to use.

[Sentinel]

Since I use HUII Supernatural PS (which allows you to lift and carry far more than in Rifts) as well as the Super-Brawling rules in HUGMG, I had already taken such things into account. Super Hero battles often see characters go flying through buildings and other large structures.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unfortunately, the books don't seem to have rules for throwing light objects farther than their maximum distance.
It isn't always true in real life either... I can throw a baseball a lot farther than I can throw a penny.

A penny is so light it has a hard time overcoming wind resistance. People are a lot heavier and are less prone to have that problem. As to the range thing, I see no reason why that can't be inferred to be within the rules. It follows the scientific rule of foot-pounds, and as Kev has always said, "Common sense is the chief rule" (paraphrased).

On a side note, I'm surprised at you guys. Well, I'm not surprised at all to see Doom doing his normal song and dance of negativity... but I am that no one seems to give a darn that there is credible rule canon backing up the idea that a character with Super Natural PS can instantly kill virtually anyone in EBA or power armor. It's just *Grab* *Chuck* *Splat* And here I though that people would be interested to see that right there in the book for anyone to use.

Back when the only books available were SB1 and the main book, one of my players made a Robot character.
One time during combat, he lost his gun, so he grabbed an opponent in each hand and flew full speed into a brick wall using his jetpacks.
Holding the guys in front of him, of course.
"Full Speed" being 400 MPH.
Which did 37d4 damage.
After we hosed out the armor, it was as good as new...

[Subjugator]

Unfortunately, the books don't seem to have rules for throwing light objects farther than their maximum distance.
It isn't always true in real life either... I can throw a baseball a lot farther than I can throw a penny.

A penny is so light it has a hard time overcoming wind resistance. People are a lot heavier and are less prone to have that problem. As to the range thing, I see no reason why that can't be inferred to be within the rules. It follows the scientific rule of foot-pounds, and as Kev has always said, "Common sense is the chief rule" (paraphrased).

On a side note, I'm surprised at you guys. Well, I'm not surprised at all to see Doom doing his normal song and dance of negativity... but I am that no one seems to give a darn that there is credible rule canon backing up the idea that a character with Super Natural PS can instantly kill virtually anyone in EBA or power armor. It's just *Grab* *Chuck* *Splat* And here I though that people would be interested to see that right there in the book for anyone to use.

Back when the only books available were SB1 and the main book, one of my players made a Robot character.
One time during combat, he lost his gun, so he grabbed an opponent in each hand and flew full speed into a brick wall using his jetpacks.
Holding the guys in front of him, of course.
"Full Speed" being 400 MPH.
Which did 37d4 damage.
After we hosed out the armor, it was as good as new...

Actually...following reason...the armor would be damaged too. When something comes to a sudden stop, it is not only crashing into the obstacle stopping it, but into itself. That's why if a Death's Head crashes in my campaign, it gets demolished, despite the fact that it's an MDC material hitting an SDC one.

Consider further:

Drop a tank from 350' in the air onto a field of sand. It'll be demolished, despite the fact that it's an MDC material that landed on an SDC material. There will likely be things bent and banged up that didn't even touch the ground.

It's things like this that make me have problems with Titan Juicers protecting their hands with MDC gauntlets meaning that they take no damage when they punch MDC materials and do damage.

Ugh! Their hands would be demolished!

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually...following reason...the armor would be damaged too. When something comes to a sudden stop, it is not only crashing into the obstacle stopping it, but into itself. That's why if a Death's Head crashes in my campaign, it gets demolished, despite the fact that it's an MDC material hitting an SDC one.

First of all, you're saying that if you swung an aluminum baseball bat at a piece of jello, that the bat would get damaged?

More importantly, MDC structures don't resist damage from impact because they're assumed to be hitting softer targets. Two MDC structures could collide and still not take any damage, unless they were going VERY fast.
The reason why they resist impact damage is because you have to have over 100 points of damage to even chip 1 MDC off of the armor.
In this case, they weren't going that fast.

Consider further:

Drop a tank from 350' in the air onto a field of sand. It'll be demolished, despite the fact that it's an MDC material that landed on an SDC material. There will likely be things bent and banged up that didn't even touch the ground.

According to the Falling Damage rules, the tank would be fine.
According to the High Speed Crash rules, the tank would likely take some damage. You'd just have to calculate how fast the tank was going at impact and work from there.

It's things like this that make me have problems with Titan Juicers protecting their hands with MDC gauntlets meaning that they take no damage when they punch MDC materials and do damage.

Ugh! Their hands would be demolished!

Don't even get me started on Titan Juicers...

[Subjugator]

First of all, you're saying that if you swung an aluminum baseball bat at a piece of jello, that the bat would get damaged?

No, because that's not a sudden stop. Like the old saying goes, 'I can survive a fall of almost any distance...it's the sudden stop at the end that kills you!'

More importantly, MDC structures don't resist damage from impact because they're assumed to be hitting softer targets. Two MDC structures could collide and still not take any damage, unless they were going VERY fast.

Depends on the velocity of the items. A Death's Head travelling at 50mph would do significant damage to a Mark V APC were they to collide. A Mark V APC running into a wall of solid granite at 50mph would also be significantly damaged.

The reason why they resist impact damage is because you have to have over 100 points of damage to even chip 1 MDC off of the armor.
In this case, they weren't going that fast.

This is from memory, but didn't you say it was 450mph? That's pretty stinkin' fast! Take a modern day tank up to 450mph and run it into anything that'll stop it cold and it's going to be DEMOLISHED.

According to the Falling Damage rules, the tank would be fine.
According to the High Speed Crash rules, the tank would likely take some damage. You'd just have to calculate how fast the tank was going at impact and work from there.

Ahh, but I didn't say using the rules. I said following reason. There is (well, can be) an ocean of difference there.

It's things like this that make me have problems with Titan Juicers protecting their hands with MDC gauntlets meaning that they take no damage when they punch MDC materials and do damage.

Ugh! Their hands would be demolished!

Don't even get me started on Titan Juicers...

Aww...c'mon...get start on Titan Juicers!

[Killer Cyborg]

Depends on the velocity of the items. A Death's Head travelling at 50mph would do significant damage to a Mark V APC were they to collide. A Mark V APC running into a wall of solid granite at 50mph would also be significantly damaged.

No, it wouldn't.

The reason why they resist impact damage is because you have to have over 100 points of damage to even chip 1 MDC off of the armor.
In this case, they weren't going that fast.

This is from memory, but didn't you say it was 450mph? That's pretty stinkin' fast! Take a modern day tank up to 450mph and run it into anything that'll stop it cold and it's going to be DEMOLISHED.

1. It was 400 mph.
2. According to the rules, this means that the robot in question took 40d6 damage, an average of 140 SDC, which comes out to 1 MD.
3. Modern day tanks are not MDC structures.

According to the Falling Damage rules, the tank would be fine.
According to the High Speed Crash rules, the tank would likely take some damage. You'd just have to calculate how fast the tank was going at impact and work from there.

Ahh, but I didn't say using the rules. I said following reason. There is (well, can be) an ocean of difference there.

It's things like this that make me have problems with Titan Juicers protecting their hands with MDC gauntlets meaning that they take no damage when they punch MDC materials and do damage.

Ugh! Their hands would be demolished!

Don't even get me started on Titan Juicers...

Aww...c'mon...get start on Titan Juicers![/quote]

[Mack]

On a side note, I'm surprised at you guys. Well, I'm not surprised at all to see Doom doing his normal song and dance of negativity... but I am that no one seems to give a darn that there is credible rule canon backing up the idea that a character with Super Natural PS can instantly kill virtually anyone in EBA or power armor. It's just *Grab* *Chuck* *Splat* And here I though that people would be interested to see that right there in the book for anyone to use.

While I'm not sure about the exact numbers, I do agree with your theory. I always figure the best thing for a SN critter to do was jump into the middle of a CS squad, and start throwing Trooper A at Trooper B until he ran out of troopers. Or just to use Trooper A as a limp baseball bat. (Think of the fight scenes in last year's Hulk movie.) Kinda like that Whack-a-Gopher game at Chuck-E-Cheese... Wack-a-Deadboy! (No offense, DB.)

EDIT - Imagine what a Dragon metamorphed into a Deadboy could do...

[Subjugator]

This is from memory, but didn't you say it was 450mph? That's pretty stinkin' fast! Take a modern day tank up to 450mph and run it into anything that'll stop it cold and it's going to be DEMOLISHED.

1. It was 400 mph.
2. According to the rules, this means that the robot in question took 40d6 damage, an average of 140 SDC, which comes out to 1 MD.
3. Modern day tanks are not MDC structures.

Oh really? Not MDC structures?

Page 38, RMB:

"Consider this example with a contemporary [emphasis mine] M.D.C. structure we all recognize, a tank."

It then goes on to describe how a *CONTEMPORARY* tank is invulnerable to the vast majority of man portable weapons in existence, but that when the bazooka (an MD weapon as per RMB pages 11 and 38, if not others as well) comes out, the tank driver gets scared...because it's an MD weapon.

So I say once more...slam an M1 Abrahms into a wall that's capable of stopping it at 400mph (OK - the speed is different) and it's DEMOLISHED. Slam an M1 Abrahms into another tank at 50mph and it's damaged.

It just works that way - they crash into themselves as well as whatever is stopping them. It's physics.

So as I said before - I say again: Following reason, the armor would be badly damaged by any high speed impact that caused it to stop as quickly as that is rationally presumed to have done.

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh really? Not MDC structures?

Page 38, RMB:

"Consider this example with a contemporary [emphasis mine] M.D.C. structure we all recognize, a tank."

Yup. That's what it says.
I figured that was what mislead you.
That passage is using something modern that people can identify with in order to explain a new concept.
It doesn't mean that modern day tanks actually ARE MDC.

Mercenaries, p. 97
"A few models of mega-damage tanks have appeared on Rifts Earth. Some are relics from the 21st century, others are old SDC tanks and armored vehicles rebuilt with MDC armor."

And, under the stats for "MDC Modified M48A3 Main Battle Tank"...

"The original SDC of the main body was 1200 points (equal to 12 MDC)."

Also, I don't have an original copy of HU, but they listed tanks in it.
And they were NOT MDC.

[Subjugator]

Oh really? Not MDC structures?

Page 38, RMB:

"Consider this example with a contemporary [emphasis mine] M.D.C. structure we all recognize, a tank."

Yup. That's what it says.
I figured that was what mislead you.
That passage is using something modern that people can identify with in order to explain a new concept.
It doesn't mean that modern day tanks actually ARE MDC.

Mercenaries, p. 97
"A few models of mega-damage tanks have appeared on Rifts Earth. Some are relics from the 21st century, others are old SDC tanks and armored vehicles rebuilt with MDC armor."

And, under the stats for "MDC Modified M48A3 Main Battle Tank"...

"The original SDC of the main body was 1200 points (equal to 12 MDC)."

Also, I don't have an original copy of HU, but they listed tanks in it.
And they were NOT MDC.

HU is not an MDC world (at least my copy isn't).

The M48A3 is OLD. It's not a modern tank. Either way though; he's describing it as MDC and describes the BEHAVIOR of MDC as being exactly how that tank responded to SDC weaponry.

You could beat that tank for fifty years with aluminum baseball bats and the net damage would be zilch. You could sit for six months shooting an M-16 at it and the total damage would be zero (unless you stuck the barrel through a hole or something - I don't know what would happen then), but the armor itself is MDC.

It doesn't mean they actually are MDC...despite the fact that it *says* they are.

Wow.

[Devari]

Page 38, RMB:
"Consider this example with a contemporary M.D.C. structure we all recognize, a tank."

It doesn't mean that modern day tanks actually ARE MDC.

Of course it means a modern day tank is M.D.C. It says so right in the book. If the tank was S.D.C., then the S.D.C. baseball bat and machineguns would inflict damage in the example, but they don't because the tank is M.D.C.

[Killer Cyborg]

HU is not an MDC world (at least my copy isn't).

Exactly my point.

The M48A3 is OLD. It's not a modern tank. Either way though; he's describing it as MDC and describes the BEHAVIOR of MDC as being exactly how that tank responded to SDC weaponry.

Modern enough, considering that passage you read was probably written in the '80s.

In any case, run a M48A3 through the exact same scenario that is described in that passage. Which part do you think it would fail?
You think the hard rubber ball would dent the tank?
You think the baseball bat would hurt the tank?
You think that the .357, the Uzi, or the M-16 would damage or penetrate the M48A3's armor?

[Killer Cyborg]

Page 38, RMB:
"Consider this example with a contemporary M.D.C. structure we all recognize, a tank."

It doesn't mean that modern day tanks actually ARE MDC.

Of course it means a modern day tank is M.D.C. It says so right in the book. If the tank was S.D.C., then the S.D.C. baseball bat and machineguns would inflict damage in the example, but they don't because the tank is M.D.C.

If the strike roll was over the tank's AR, then yes it would (stupidly enough) hurt the tank.
But that doesn't change the fact that all of the real tanks described in Palladium's books are SDC structures.

[Devari]

If the strike roll was over the tank's AR, then yes it would (stupidly enough) hurt the tank.
But that doesn't change the fact that all of the real tanks described in Palladium's books are SDC structures.

A contemporary tank in Rifts is an M.D.C. structure, not an S.D.C. structure, since the rules use it as an example of an M.D.C. vehicle. Tanks in other Palladium books have S.D.C. values only because those systems don't use the M.D.C. rules, so they provide the equivalent M.D.C. rating as S.D.C. points.

[Killer Cyborg]

If the strike roll was over the tank's AR, then yes it would (stupidly enough) hurt the tank.
But that doesn't change the fact that all of the real tanks described in Palladium's books are SDC structures.

A contemporary tank in Rifts is an M.D.C. structure, not an S.D.C. structure, since the rules use it as an example of an M.D.C. vehicle. Tanks in other Palladium books have S.D.C. values only because those systems don't use the M.D.C. rules, so they provide the equivalent M.D.C. rating as S.D.C. points.

Reread that passage I quoted from Mercenaries.

[Devari]

I know the passage you're referring to, that doesn't mean that the tanks weren't M.D.C. structures before being outfitted with Rifts armour, it just means that additional armour was added to increase the M.D.C. to higher levels. So a contemporary tank is around 12 M.D.C. without any modification, but that can be increased to around 200 M.D.C. by outfitting it with M.D.C. armour plating from Rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

I know the passage you're referring to, that doesn't mean that the tanks weren't M.D.C. structures before being outfitted with Rifts armour, it just means that additional armour was added to increase the M.D.C. to higher levels. So a contemporary tank is around 12 M.D.C. without any modification, but that can be increased to around 200 M.D.C. by outfitting it with M.D.C. armour plating from Rifts.

If they were MDC, it wouldn't list the stats as SDC.

[Devari]

Actually, it lists both S.D.C. and M.D.C. values for the contemporary tanks in Rifts Mercenaries. You'll also notice that in the Rifts main book, the Rocket Launcher, 66mm LAW, and 90mm Recoilless Rifle from p. 244 have their damage ratings expressed in both M.D.C and S.D.C. values. The reason for this is that their M.D.C. ratings are relatively low so S.D.C. equivalents are also given, but the weapons and tanks are still considered to be M.D.C. and are treated the same as other M.D.C. structures.

[Subjugator]

HU is not an MDC world (at least my copy isn't).

Exactly my point.

The M48A3 is OLD. It's not a modern tank. Either way though; he's describing it as MDC and describes the BEHAVIOR of MDC as being exactly how that tank responded to SDC weaponry.

Modern enough, considering that passage you read was probably written in the '80s.

Modern enough? It was old in Vietnam for cripes sake!

In any case, run a M48A3 through the exact same scenario that is described in that passage. Which part do you think it would fail?
You think the hard rubber ball would dent the tank?
You think the baseball bat would hurt the tank?
You think that the .357, the Uzi, or the M-16 would damage or penetrate the M48A3's armor?

No. I also think though that the M48A3 would withstand more damage than an M1 (which WAS in use in the 80s) would upon falling.

So - we have a specific example of a MODERN tank being MDC. I'm not referring to old technology - he said contemporary, and we have to keep it contemporary.

Taking it further - can you imagine the baseball bat EVER doing damage to the tank armor of an M1? There's not even a 1/10000 chance of it happening - this isn't an AR question, but a question of physics.

Again - when a structure falls and hits the ground, it is crashing against itself as much as it is crashing against the ground.

[Subjugator]

I know the passage you're referring to, that doesn't mean that the tanks weren't M.D.C. structures before being outfitted with Rifts armour, it just means that additional armour was added to increase the M.D.C. to higher levels. So a contemporary tank is around 12 M.D.C. without any modification, but that can be increased to around 200 M.D.C. by outfitting it with M.D.C. armour plating from Rifts.

If they were MDC, it wouldn't list the stats as SDC.

Use occam's razor here: Is it more likely that the tank referred to (the M1...not the M1 Abrahms, but the stock M1) is an SDC item or an MDC item? Rephrased, do you think that a simple machine gun that a normal person can get ahold of without titanic difficulty (i.e. .50 cal or less) will ever damage the armor of a modern tank?

I don't.

[Sentinel]

KC is correct: tanks in HU are SDC.
There are enough passages all over the books to be confusing. I tend to agree though, that 21st Century tanks weren't MD structures.
SDC of a 1000 or so. AR of 18. PV of 9. So, even if you beat the AR with your strike roll, unless your gun/bullet has a PV of 9 or greater, you do nothing to the tank.

[GaredBattlespike]

Modern Tanks will soon be MDC. Last year I read an aticle in Discover Magazine that was explaning a new substance; "Glassy Metal" . This substance is being made for Police/US Military body armor heart-plates and tank armor. It is decribed as "will not break,bend,burn, or be cut..." by the article. I forget the issue, but it is real and probbably available as a back-order. Discover is not a "rag-mag" that touts alien abductions or the ghost-of-Elvis garbage, it is a serious scientific publication and should be taken seriously. I believe that this very subject (Glassy Metal) was dicussed at this forum, last year.

[Killer Cyborg]

I know the passage you're referring to, that doesn't mean that the tanks weren't M.D.C. structures before being outfitted with Rifts armour, it just means that additional armour was added to increase the M.D.C. to higher levels. So a contemporary tank is around 12 M.D.C. without any modification, but that can be increased to around 200 M.D.C. by outfitting it with M.D.C. armour plating from Rifts.

If they were MDC, it wouldn't list the stats as SDC.

Use occam's razor here: Is it more likely that the tank referred to (the M1...not the M1 Abrahms, but the stock M1) is an SDC item or an MDC item? Rephrased, do you think that a simple machine gun that a normal person can get ahold of without titanic difficulty (i.e. .50 cal or less) will ever damage the armor of a modern tank?

I don't.

The odds are slim, and that's reflected in a high AR.

[Killer Cyborg]

So - we have a specific example of a MODERN tank being MDC. I'm not referring to old technology - he said contemporary, and we have to keep it contemporary.

The writers at Palladium are always behind the times.
Look at the computers in Rifts, for example.

Taking it further - can you imagine the baseball bat EVER doing damage to the tank armor of an M1? There's not even a 1/10000 chance of it happening - this isn't an AR question, but a question of physics.

So?
You can't bust through an old boiler with a baseball bat either, but that doesn't make it mega-damage.

The fact that the AR sysem is imperfect does not mean that tanks are Mega-Damage.
They are clearly and repeatedly listed as SDC structures.

Again - when a structure falls and hits the ground, it is crashing against itself as much as it is crashing against the ground.

So?
Take two neural maces and whack them against each other, and what happens?
Nothing, unless you're strong enough to inflict megadamage.

[Killer Cyborg]

Use occam's razor here: Is it more likely that the tank referred to (the M1...not the M1 Abrahms, but the stock M1) is an SDC item or an MDC item?

Let's look at it.

Tanks are SDC in Heroes Unlimited.
They're SDC in N&S.
They're listed as SDC in Rifts: Mercenaries.
Even though these tanks would be bulletproof.

The simplest explanation is that modern tanks are SDC, and that the flavor text you refer to does not over-ride the actual rules of the game.

[Subjugator]

I know the passage you're referring to, that doesn't mean that the tanks weren't M.D.C. structures before being outfitted with Rifts armour, it just means that additional armour was added to increase the M.D.C. to higher levels. So a contemporary tank is around 12 M.D.C. without any modification, but that can be increased to around 200 M.D.C. by outfitting it with M.D.C. armour plating from Rifts.

If they were MDC, it wouldn't list the stats as SDC.

Use occam's razor here: Is it more likely that the tank referred to (the M1...not the M1 Abrahms, but the stock M1) is an SDC item or an MDC item? Rephrased, do you think that a simple machine gun that a normal person can get ahold of without titanic difficulty (i.e. .50 cal or less) will ever damage the armor of a modern tank?

I don't.

The odds are slim, and that's reflected in a high AR.

The odds aren't slim - they're not there! You simply will not penetrate the main armor of a tank with a .50 cal machine gun. Have you ever seen and touched a tank?

BTW - the GMG refers to tanks and battle ships as being MD (page 11). Either one will be horribly damaged if dropped onto sand from 350' in the air. As a side note, since it is NOW the 21st century, the M1 Abrahms applies as a 21st Century Tank.

[Subjugator]

So?
You can't bust through an old boiler with a baseball bat either, but that doesn't make it mega-damage.

Can you damage it with a .50 caliber machine gun? You bet you can.

The fact that the AR sysem is imperfect does not mean that tanks are Mega-Damage. They are clearly and repeatedly listed as SDC structures.

Show me an example of a MODERN tank that is listed as an SDC structure please. Something post....say...1980. Not a relic from the Korean and Vietnam wars.

So?
Take two neural maces and whack them against each other, and what happens?
Nothing, unless you're strong enough to inflict megadamage.

In the case of a neural mace, I'm not sure if terminal velocity would be high enough to generate enough force to cause damage. Terminal velocity on a BATTLESHIP or a TANK would be easily significant enough to cause damage to them.

So...show me a modern tank - one that is used by us TODAY - that is listed as being SDC. He said contemporary, and in the GMG says 21st century...well, NOW it's the 21st century, so let's have another roll at this.

[Jefffar]

BTW - the GMG refers to tanks and battle ships as being MD (page 11).

Isn't there a passage in the GMG that says the GMG overides any other books published up to this point?

Therefore tanks are now officially MDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

Show me an example of a MODERN tank that is listed as an SDC structure please. Something post....say...1980. Not a relic from the Korean and Vietnam wars.

1. Look up "modern" in the dictionary.
2. Show me that there is appreciable difference in their armor.
Was the armor in the listed tanks able to be penetrated by .50 cal rounds?
If not, then what's your beef?

So?
Take two neural maces and whack them against each other, and what happens?
Nothing, unless you're strong enough to inflict megadamage.

In the case of a neural mace, I'm not sure if terminal velocity would be high enough to generate enough force to cause damage. Terminal velocity on a BATTLESHIP or a TANK would be easily significant enough to cause damage to them.[/quote]

That depends on how fast their terminal velocity would be.

[Jefffar]

Sorry to be a nit pick, but as a historian I was always taught that the Modern period begins around 1451 AD.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry to be a nit pick, but as a historian I was always taught that the Modern period begins around 1451 AD.

Slightly before the Vietnam War, then...?

[Killer Cyborg]

the GMG refers to tanks and battle ships as being MD (page 11).

No, it doesn't.

[Jefffar]

True. More accurately it refers to MDC as being comperable to an MBT or a Battleship

[Dead Boy]

Isn't there a passage in the GMG that says the GMG overides any other books published up to this point?

Well, we play the game of priting & edition precidence here in our debates, but if such a line existed in the RGMG, I'd be amazed. Especialy since it and the Revised CB1 came out back to back, intended to complement each other, even though in many spots they actually contradict. But on the off chance anyone actually finds such a line, you know the drill... Book, Page number, Quote.

[Subjugator]

Use occam's razor here: Is it more likely that the tank referred to (the M1...not the M1 Abrahms, but the stock M1) is an SDC item or an MDC item?

Let's look at it.

Tanks are SDC in Heroes Unlimited.
They're SDC in N&S.
They're listed as SDC in Rifts: Mercenaries.
Even though these tanks would be bulletproof.

The simplest explanation is that modern tanks are SDC, and that the flavor text you refer to does not over-ride the actual rules of the game.

Let's look at it:

Are ANY of those the tanks I'm talking about?

Following your logic, the supertanks in the Rifts books would also be SDC, but they're not. You're not referring to a MODERN tank!

[Subjugator]

1. Look up "modern" in the dictionary.
2. Show me that there is appreciable difference in their armor.
Was the armor in the listed tanks able to be penetrated by .50 cal rounds?
If not, then what's your beef?

Ultimately, yes - the armor in the listed tanks COULD be pentrated by .50 cal rounds. It wouldn't even take a terribly long time either - a few melee rounds of fire would penetrate it just fine.

Compare that to an MDC structure - it'd take eternity to penetrate.

That depends on how fast their terminal velocity would be.

Yes it does, but ships have been known to crack because of the damage done by bouncing around on big waves, which is evidence (though not incontrovertable proof) that they can be and are damaged by falling. I imagine one of the more mathematically minded people here could figure out what terminal velocity is for an M1.

Anyone care to help?

[Subjugator]

For the people who don't like my usage of modern...

From dictionary.com:

mod·ern ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mdrn)
adj.

Of or relating to recent times or the present: modern history.
Characteristic or expressive of recent times or the present; contemporary or up-to-date: a modern lifestyle; a modern way of thinking.

Of or relating to a recently developed or advanced style, technique, or technology: modern art; modern medicine.
Avant-garde; experimental.
often Modern Linguistics. Of, relating to, or being a living language or group of languages: Modern Italian; Modern Romance languages.

n.
One who lives in modern times.
One who has modern ideas, standards, or beliefs.
Printing. Any of a variety of typefaces characterized by strongly contrasted heavy and thin parts.




The emphasis is of course, mine. The materials and technologies used in the design of the tanks mentioned in Mercs are NOT 'advanced'. They're 'old'. To say otherwise would be similar to calling an i386 processor an 'advanced' design. It could be called one as compared to other, older designs, but compared to the current state - it is not.

So KC - you can go find some competing definition if you like, but since *I* was using the word, *I* determine how *I* meant it. You don't have to like how I mean something, but you don't determine what I mean when I say it. The definition is mine to choose.

[Subjugator]

True. More accurately it refers to MDC as being comperable to an MBT or a Battleship

Here's the exact verbiage:

In the Rifts setting, humans and most D-Bees are Hit Point/S.D.C., but they wield such advanced technology and/or powerful magic, that they have weapons and armor that is measured in Mega-Damage. Handguns, body armor and vehicles with the firepower and armor of a 21st Century tank. Likewise, supernatural beings, creatures of magic and some D-Bees are Mega-Damage beings with skin like the armor of a battleship and supernatural strength.

Let's see...

''They have...armor that is measured in Mega-Damage.' '...body armor...with the...armor of a 21st Century tank'.

That is a direct statement that Rifts MD body armor is armored as a 21st century tank. There is no contextual uncertainty there.

[Mack]

So now all you need is a 21st Century tank, since all the ones we have are 20th Century.

[Jmur]

The writers at Palladium are always behind the times.
Look at the computers in Rifts, for example.

Come on now. You know you want one of them 4 megs of ram computers.