Thoughts on cyber-knight zen combat

[Defender_X]

I know some people like it, some don't. I'm in the like camp, but that's beside the point. I just read the Mechanoid thread and it got me thinking. If I recall correctly, Coake had some help in designing and training the Cyber-knights. Let's consider that some of them may have faced Mechanoids or some similar tech evil or came from Phase World. This faction may have considered anti-tech more important since most of their foes in the past used tech and came in large numbers. The anti-supernatural camp thought the other way. Going behind the curtain for a second, both camps thought the same up to third level, using the psi-shield and combat mobility. But past that, the anti-tech camp won out. Maybe they convinced Coake that high-tech threats discovering Earth and all it's rifts to other worlds were a greater threat or that the Splurgoth and their tech and TW using minions were a far greater threat. And for arguement's sake, lets assume that the anti-supernatural camp saw it as a losing arguement or were convinced of the splurgoth's threat level. Thoghts and opinions are welcomed.

[The Galactus Kid]

I agree, but I still think that the class description in the SOT 4 book does a great job of explaining why they have antin tech powers.

[Mack]

I'm kinda indifferent regarding the 'upgraded' CK's. At least the anti-tech powers make them unique; I don't know of another OCC with similar abilities.

I understand/acknowledge the "they should have anti-monster powers" complaint, but it doesn't change my opinion. They're still pretty good against a monster.

[Guest]

Well can't you do that with the two seperate secs?

Like take the one in the Original book as anti-demon
and take the one in the Cyberknight book as the anti-tech

seems to work for me but I could be terribly terribly mistaken

I haven't read the Cyber-Knight O.C.C. from the mainbook in awhile, but if memory serves me correctly, the newer O.C.C. from the Seige of Tolkeen is more powerful.

[Danger]

Well can't you do that with the two seperate secs?

Like take the one in the Original book as anti-demon
and take the one in the Cyberknight book as the anti-tech

seems to work for me but I could be terribly terribly mistaken

I haven't read the Cyber-Knight O.C.C. from the mainbook in awhile, but if memory serves me correctly, the newer O.C.C. from the Seige of Tolkeen is more powerful.

It's way more powerful. There's no comparison.

[Killer Cyborg]

I agree, but I still think that the class description in the SOT 4 book does a great job of explaining why they have antin tech powers.

How so?

[Rimmer]

I agree, but I still think that the class description in the SOT 4 book does a great job of explaining why they have antin tech powers.

How so?

That went by a little fast for me to catch, wanna start again ?

[Scooter the Outlaw]

I was indifferent to them. Cyber Knights were a fine O.C.C. before. The Tolkeen book just advanced them a little in the arms race by stacking them some more abilities. The anti-tech stuff doesn't bother me, but I did figure I'd make the Zen combat stuff able to work against other stuff the cyber-knight specialized in fighting, so I just reworked some of the tables a bit (specilize against tech, magic & psionics, and supernatural creatures). It worked out fine in play. The categories seemed a bit weird but actually came around after a fair bit of gameplay testing.

[Dr. Doom III]

I agree, but I still think that the class description in the SOT 4 book does a great job of explaining why they have antin tech powers.

How so?

They find themselves in a book opposing the CS?

[RockJock]

I think von Doom hit the nail on the head. The CK developed Anti-tech abilites to be a foil to th CS. That being said, I like the upgrades. A CK should be a very effective and gracefull fighter against almost any enemy. I just wish they would have done two or three life paths for CKs that fought demons, or whatever more then power armor. The Cyber part of the name came from their trademark Cyberarmor, which now becomes organic at high levels! I had more of a plot problem with that then the Zen Combat skills.

If it was upto me I would have a CK version with Demon Hunter/Wrestler/Fighter abilities in the slots for tech abilities. Heck, if you don't want to be creative, or unbalencing directly switch them for the same ability against demons. Say that over time the CK learns the instincts of the demons and can predict their movements or some such BS.

[The Galactus Kid]

In the story about Erin Tarn, and Sir Winslow Thorpe being attacked, Thorpe discusses the abilities. He does so in a way that makes sense in the game world. If you don't like it, don't use it.

[Dr. Doom III]

Thorpe discusses the abilities. He does so in a way that makes sense in the game world.

No it doesn't.

[The Galactus Kid]

yes it does

[Levi]

I didn’t like the explanation for their new Zen combat being tech oriented myself. I also didn’t like the way the ability is set up. You have to keep track or bonuses separate for certain opponents, then later you have to keep track of which enemy you are focused on, then to top it off, you get bonuses and your enemy gets penalties. It’s just set up poorly and somewhat difficult to use.

What I would have liked to have seen is them gain a Zen like fighting ability that works against anyone and just gets stronger as they advance in skill (level). But leave out any penalties for the opponents.

I just ignore the new Zen combat and Psi-Shield. I do use the changes to the Cyber-Armor though.

[Dr. Doom III]

No it doesn't.

yes it does

No it doesn't.

yes it does

No it doesn't.

yes it does

... (there, I finished it out for you...

Brilliant argurments... Doom, is this a ploy to increase your number of posts? J/K

would you both care to expound on why you feel this way?

Party pooper.


It makes no sense that an organization set up in the post apocalyptic dark ages to protect people developed powers against technology when the main threat to protect people from by far and away would be from demons and monsters.
Not to mention the founder came from a world without technology.

[Sureshot]

It makes no sense that an organization set up in the post apocalyptic dark ages to protect people developed powers against technology when the main threat to protect people from by far and away would be from demons and monsters.
Not to mention the founder came from a world without technology.

Exactly. I totally agree. I also don't like what they did to the cyberknights. Feels like they turned them into a bunch of jedi

[Jesterzzn]

It makes no sense that an organization set up in the post apocalyptic dark ages to protect people developed powers against technology when the main threat to protect people from by far and away would be from demons and monsters.
Not to mention the founder came from a world without technology.

Exactly. I totally agree. I also don't like what they did to the cyberknights. Feels like they turned them into a bunch of jedi

Except Jedi do not lose their powers with full bionic reconstruction.

[DBX]

CK's vs CS.

the only thing going to make them anti-CS in SOT book 4 is that in Main book, under their description it does say many people think that the CK's were started as an opposing force to the CS.
In SOT book 4, when we finally see them as anti-CS, it does make sense from that point of view.


Having a force opposed to CS, actually makes alot of sense, when most gamers rp/see the CS as going around being the playground bully or as cash cows for the players. the NPC CK would be the only real opposition to the CS. alot of human bandits also target the weak and innocent humans/d-bees. a force geared to anti-tech makes sense when the most powerful bad guys use tech. It is players fault for rp'ing them as anti-supernatural, rather than anti-tech or just a force of good, opposing evil and criminals. players though generally rp'ed them as anti-supernatural, which they weren't really meant to be.


it is us players who have been rp'ing CK's as anti-supernatural. maybe the CK being on North America where the biggest threat to ordinary people is the bully that is the CS may have suggested to us, that the CK's should oppose the CS, and not go after the nearest supernatural critter.

players generally tend to see NPC humans as soft and cuddly, immaterial whether the human may be second only to satan on the evil table. Players see any supernatural as the most evil thing imaginable and generally have an attitude of attack first ask questions later.


it is one thing making CK's more powerful, it is a totally different making the CK as powerful as SOT book 4 does. even munchkin players were aghast and started hyperventilating when they saw the CK's power level increase in SOT book 4.


the zen combat ability thing was a good new idea, certainly different from previous books, but surely it would have been more appropriate in a certain book called World Book Japan.

where if memory serves me right, Zen combat was sort of mentioned, but it was no where near the power level of SOT book 4. may well be wrong on how Zen was used in Rifts Japan book.

[Defender_X]

As I said, I don't mind the CK's being anit-tech with their zen combat. This was just my thoughts on how it came about from an in-game point of view.

[Rex]

Immune to vampire transformation? That's stupid. Cyberknight vampires just rule.

Wow Tyc, for once I agree with you. I remember about 12 years ago reading something on AOL (this was after VK came out, and before the WWW became a household name) about different types of CK's. There were Cyber rangers, etc. (thats the only one sticking in my mind right now) Well, for some damn reason they were all immune to being turned into the vamps. The writer never did see fit to explain that either.

Would a Vampire CK still have his psi-sword?

[Korota]

Like Erin Tarn said. CYBERKnights. Not PSI-berknights. They didn't develop these abilities in response to fighting the CS, either. Canonically, they've always had them. But they didn't have them in the original book because Palladium probably didn't expect things to get so uber-powerful, so they redid the OCC to make them not suck compared to, uh, most everyone. In the original version, they had, um, cyber-armor and a wimpy version of the Mind Melter's Psi-Sword. But with the new stuff, they can actually DO heroic stuff and protect people from high-tech bandits who decide to rule over some village with their megadamage weapons and armor, and Juicers, and giant robots.

[Killer Cyborg]

Like Erin Tarn said. CYBERKnights. Not PSI-berknights. They didn't develop these abilities in response to fighting the CS, either. Canonically, they've always had them. But they didn't have them in the original book because Palladium probably didn't expect things to get so uber-powerful, so they redid the OCC to make them not suck compared to, uh, most everyone. In the original version, they had, um, cyber-armor and a wimpy version of the Mind Melter's Psi-Sword. But with the new stuff, they can actually DO heroic stuff and protect people from high-tech bandits who decide to rule over some village with their megadamage weapons and armor, and Juicers, and giant robots.

The original Cyberknights were, if anything, overpowered.
They needed no update or enhancement, people just needed to play them better.

[Defender_X]

But the extra boost was nice.

[Killer Cyborg]

But the extra boost was nice.

No, it was the butchering of a once good OCC.

[Defender_X]

Considering all the muchy tech coming out it was very useful.

[The Galactus Kid]

Yes, but it did nothing to help them against all of the munchy non-tech stuff... Not Happy

It wasn't supposed to.

Like Erin Tarn said. CYBERKnights. Not PSI-berknights.

Exactly

[Guest]

But the extra boost was nice.

No, it was the butchering of a once good OCC.

I don't think I'd agree with that assessment myself. The original CK was seriously overpowered when compared to the rest of the RMB classes. They got more skills than anyone else (and are still in the top 5 classes for skills), cybernetics AND psionics, as well as additional bonuses on top of that.

[Kelorin]

Hold on, hold on. Everything about the Cyber-Knights and their Zen combat abilities vs. tech make perfect sense, if you just pause and think about it.

A couple of points to consider:

Insert sarcasm tag here:
[sarcasm]
1) The first appearance of the Cyber-Knights was recorded after the Cataclysm, during the dark ages that followed, and prior to the rise of Coalition States.
2) Humanity during this period was under constant threat of starvation, disease, and attack from supernatural creatures such as demons, and vampires.
3) The main line of defense against these threats were the Cyber-Knights, Psyscape, and NEMA.
4) The zen combat abilites of Cyber-Knights are most effective against technology.
5) The main user of high-tech weapons, armor, robots, and PA during this time would have been NEMA, which eventually of course became the Coalition States.
6) In the current era, some of the Cyber-Knights main areas of activity are in the Western badlands, Calgary, Mexico, and Xiticix territories.

From this I forced to conclude that the real deal is one of the following:
1) The Cyber-Knights true primary focus was to defend D-Bees and misplaced supernatural creatures against the remaining human survivors and their tech based equipment (like NEMA).
2) The Cyber-Knights somehow 'knew' (Psychic premonition perhaps) that the evil NEMA would eventually become the evil CS and developed abilities specifically to counter this growing threat.
3) The Vampires, Calgary Demons, and/or Xiticix have secret mechanized legions or stockpiles of advanced, high-tech weapons and robots.
[/sarcasm]

[The Galactus Kid]

It is canon. If you don't like it, don't use it, but an explaination IS given. It is a canon explanation at that. I don't know why there is not an anti monster version, but there isn't. Of all the things that you should expect from a science FICTION rpg, realism isn't one of them. I will quote the great MUXE in saying, THERE ARE ZOMBIES HERE...IT ISN'T REAL...IT'S A GAME!!!

[The Galactus Kid]

it doesn't matter. It's canon. That is what cyber knights are. take it as it is, or leave it. You are all forgetting the main rule of any RPG. If you don't like something, change it.

[Kelorin]

The same book that refers canonically to the Cyber-Knights new but retro-actively long standing powers against tech also indicates that they are staunch enemies of the Supernatural, Demons, evil mages etc.

Further the book states that Cyber-Knights will on occasion take a Quest, a Quest that may take the Cyber-Knight's entire lifetime to complete, or even attempt. Some Cyber-Knights have chosen the CS as the greatest evil, or threat to North America, and thus pledge themselves to the defeat of the CS. Ok, fair enough, and the Zen anti-tech abilities of the new Cyber-Knight class are well suited and appropriate to this task.

However, many Cyber-Knights recognize a greater threat in the form of the Vampire Kingdoms, Nxla, the Xiticix, but strangely haven't developed any powers to counter these threats...

I can just imagine Sir Raoul Lazarius's interview with Doc Reid.
Reid: So you want to join my Vampire Hunters. Might I ask why?
Lazarius: I recognize Vampires for the evil they represent and feel that they must be eliminated.
Reid: OK fine, fine. Do you have any experience in fighting Vampires or special powers that may be of benefit to my organization?
Lazarius: As a matter of fact, yes I do. I have the unique abilities to counter any mechanized or high-tech robots fielded by the vast Vampire hordes. Any powered armor or giant robots the evil bloodsuck...
Reid: But.. uh..
Lazarius: Their automated defense turrets, and AI-controlled attack bots will be usele..
Reid: Vampires don't use robo...
Lazarius: I am confident in my zen-like ability to neutralize any starships, aerospace fighter craft, hoverbikes, sky cycles, jet fighters, warships, cruisers, tanks, artillery support vehicles, or combat robots our enemies may choose to employ. So what to do you say?
Reid: If I hire you, will you shut up?
Lazarius: Uh, sure.
Reid: Great, welcome aboard.

[Dr. Doom III]

it doesn't matter. It's canon. That is what cyber knights are. take it as it is, or leave it. You are all forgetting the main rule of any RPG. If you don't like something, change it.

Umm... No one is saying it isn't canon.

We are saying it doesn't make sense.

[The Galactus Kid]

Zombies....psi swords...psionics...magice spells. Logic is a moot point

[Killer Cyborg]

It is canon. If you don't like it, don't use it, but an explaination IS given. It is a canon explanation at that. I don't know why there is not an anti monster version, but there isn't. Of all the things that you should expect from a science FICTION rpg, realism isn't one of them. I will quote the great MUXE in saying, THERE ARE ZOMBIES HERE...IT ISN'T REAL...IT'S A GAME!!!

1. The fact that it is canon does not change the fact that it's crap.
2. I like my science fiction to be realistic. Same with my RPGs. If you don't like realism, go play TOON.
3. Just because there are fantasy elements (like zombies) to a story or setting doesn't mean that all rules of logic and reason should get thrown out the window. The fact that there are zombies in Rifts does not, in any way, affect Cyberknights having stupid anti-tech powers that go against the nature of the character class.

[Killer Cyborg]

The same book that refers canonically to the Cyber-Knights new but retro-actively long standing powers against tech also indicates that they are staunch enemies of the Supernatural, Demons, evil mages etc.

Further the book states that Cyber-Knights will on occasion take a Quest, a Quest that may take the Cyber-Knight's entire lifetime to complete, or even attempt. Some Cyber-Knights have chosen the CS as the greatest evil, or threat to North America, and thus pledge themselves to the defeat of the CS. Ok, fair enough, and the Zen anti-tech abilities of the new Cyber-Knight class are well suited and appropriate to this task.

However, many Cyber-Knights recognize a greater threat in the form of the Vampire Kingdoms, Nxla, the Xiticix, but strangely haven't developed any powers to counter these threats...

Not only that, but Desire does NOT mean Ability.
The fact that somebody wants to fight certain creatures/people does not and should not mean that they spontaneously and/or retroactively gain vast powers to help them in their quest.
Otherwise everybody with a grudge would suddenly turn into a super hero/villian.

So whether or not the CKs want to fight the CS, whether or not it is their over-riding quest, has NOTHING to do with their sudden gain of mystic powers.

[DBX]

Hold on, hold on. Everything about the Cyber-Knights and their Zen combat abilities vs. tech make perfect sense, if you just pause and think about it.

A couple of points to consider:

Insert sarcasm tag here:
[sarcasm]
1) The first appearance of the Cyber-Knights was recorded after the Cataclysm, during the dark ages that followed, and prior to the rise of Coalition States.
2) Humanity during this period was under constant threat of starvation, disease, and attack from supernatural creatures such as demons, and vampires.
3) The main line of defense against these threats were the Cyber-Knights, Psyscape, and NEMA.
4) The zen combat abilites of Cyber-Knights are most effective against technology.
5) The main user of high-tech weapons, armor, robots, and PA during this time would have been NEMA, which eventually of course became the Coalition States.
6) In the current era, some of the Cyber-Knights main areas of activity are in the Western badlands, Calgary, Mexico, and Xiticix territories.

From this I forced to conclude that the real deal is one of the following:
1) The Cyber-Knights true primary focus was to defend D-Bees and misplaced supernatural creatures against the remaining human survivors and their tech based equipment (like NEMA).
2) The Cyber-Knights somehow 'knew' (Psychic premonition perhaps) that the evil NEMA would eventually become the evil CS and developed abilities specifically to counter this growing threat.
3) The Vampires, Calgary Demons, and/or Xiticix have secret mechanized legions or stockpiles of advanced, high-tech weapons and robots.
[/sarcasm]

It does say in Main book in the cyberknight intro blurb something along the lines " that MANY people believe/think that the Cyberknights came into existence as an opposing force to the CS" not exact quote, but it does say something like that.

From that point of view
the Anti-CS thing makes a whole lot of sense. It makes less sense when you consider the power level boost the CK occ gets in SOT book 4.

I mean you don't see OCC's in Japan with Zen combat abilities like that. That is a world area where you would expect to see them, especially as an entire nation is based on Traditional Japan, with Samurai's and Zen Monks runnning round, fighting Tech Japan and hoardes of Oni demons

[Kelorin]

It does say in Main book in the cyberknight intro blurb something along the lines " that MANY people believe/think that the Cyberknights came into existence as an opposing force to the CS" not exact quote, but it does say something like that.

From that point of view
the Anti-CS thing makes a whole lot of sense. It makes less sense when you consider the power level boost the CK occ gets in SOT book 4.

I mean you don't see OCC's in Japan with Zen combat abilities like that. That is a world area where you would expect to see them, especially as an entire nation is based on Traditional Japan, with Samurai's and Zen Monks runnning round, fighting Tech Japan and hoardes of Oni demons

The actual passage from the RMB is:

"Nobody knows exactly where they came from or why, but about 80 years ago the cyber-knight emerged. Some believe the cyber-knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition. Other say that they came to fight the hordes of supernatural beings that terrorize the land."

By your reasoning, the Cyber-Knights should also have an entire host of powers/abilities vs. the Supernatural like other classes that fall into the same type of role: ie Psi-Warriors, Battle-Magi, True Samurai, Apoks, Demon-Quellers, and Undead Slayers.

[Dr. Doom III]

Zombies....psi swords...psionics...magice spells. Logic is a moot point

Bull.

I am sick of people spouting this crap.

[The Galactus Kid]

Bull.

I am sick of people spouting this crap.

No. Bulls are logical. I can see how you may think this, though. The thought of a MALE gender of the cow is mindbending.

[DBX]

"Nobody knows exactly where they came from or why, but about 80 years ago the cyber-knight emerged. Some believe the cyber-knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition. Other say that they came to fight the hordes of supernatural beings that terrorize the land."

By your reasoning, the Cyber-Knights should also have an entire host of powers/abilities vs. the Supernatural like other classes that fall into the same type of role: ie Psi-Warriors, Battle-Magi, True Samurai, Apoks, Demon-Quellers, and Undead Slayers.[/quote]


my point is that, us players are surprised, for a change the books have shown continuity of sorts. you can say they gave a 50:50 chance of cyberknights being anti-CS/anti-tech in original OCC.
In the Mainbook Palladiumbooks not only hinted the Cyberknight occ may be anti-tech, but even specifically suggested/hinted they are anti-CS.

When they confirm this hint/suggestion in a later book, we shouldn't be surprised. Most players seem shocked that the cyberknight is an anti-CS occ in SOT book 4. CK's being anti-CS should not have come as a surprise to us, when all the way back in Main book, Palladiumbooks suggested they may be anti-CS.


it is just us players chose to roleplay them as anti-supernatural. So when the Cyberknight is shown as an anti-CS occ that was hinted at right from the start, why are us lot surprised? we just went for the wrong option.

the Anti-CS abilities should not come as a surprise to us. we should be concentrating on the ridiculous power boost this occ got in that book, but them being anti-CS is not something Palladium pulled out of the blue, if you go by the above quote.


the reason they did not give them anti-supernatural abilities, is due to the amount of antimagic/supernatural occ's/rcc's out there.

in a world where tech is so powerful in combat, it is about time we saw anti-tech specialists. Considering how many anti-magic/supernatural occ/rcc's and even weapons/equipment that have appeared on Rifts Earth. It is about time that we started to see anti-tech things. Especially when tech appears to be so much more powerful than magic and supernatural.

[Dr. Doom III]

"Nobody knows exactly where they came from or why, but about 80 years ago the cyber-knight emerged. Some believe the cyber-knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition. Other say that they came to fight the hordes of supernatural beings that terrorize the land."

By your reasoning, the Cyber-Knights should also have an entire host of powers/abilities vs. the Supernatural like other classes that fall into the same type of role: ie Psi-Warriors, Battle-Magi, True Samurai, Apoks, Demon-Quellers, and Undead Slayers.


my point is that, us players are surprised, for a change the books have shown continuity of sorts. you can say they gave a 50:50 chance of cyberknights being anti-CS/anti-tech in original OCC.


it is just us players chose to roleplay them as anti-supernatural. So when the Cyberknight is shown as an anti-CS occ that was hinted at right from the start, why are us lot surprised. we just went for the wrong option. from that point the Anti-CS abilities should not come as a surprise to us. we should be concentrating on the ridiculous power boost this occ got in that book.


the reason they did not give them anti-supernatural abilities, is due to the amount of antimagic/supernatural occ's/rcc's out there.

in a world where tech is so pwoerful in combat, it is about time we saw anti-tech specialists

The fact that in all the cyber-knights did not go to fight the CS shows that they were NOT formed to fight the CS.
Yet somehow they have powers which seem to be taylor made to fight the CS.

[DBX]

The fact that in all the cyber-knights did not go to fight the CS shows that they were NOT formed to fight the CS.
Yet somehow they have powers which seem to be taylor made to fight the CS. [/quote]


Half of them not going to fight the CS. This could be because they don't want to help a greater evil gain even more power than the evil they were founded to oppose. Rather than helping CS against Tolkeen's preceived greater evil, they did not take sides.

Half that went to fight CS. These CK's could be seen as the ones who actually stuck to their founding doctrine and principles. They saw it as a duty to oppose the CS at all costs, because that was what they were founded to do.

[Dr. Doom III]

Half of them not going to fight the CS. This could be because they don't want to help a greater evil gain even more power than the evil they were founded to oppose. Rather than helping CS against Tolkeen's preceived greater evil, they did not take sides.

Half that went to fight CS. These CK's could be seen as the ones who actually stuck to their founding doctrine and principles. They saw it as a duty to oppose the CS at all costs, because that was what they were founded to do.

Your supposition is contradictory to the information in the Cyber-Knights book.
I guess you are following the first rule of RPGs.

[The Galactus Kid]

yes he is. Good for him. I guess not everybody forgot thhat this is a game, nor did they forget how to play said game.

[Kelorin]

See my earlier post regarding the 'known' facts about the Cyber-Knights.

I gotta tell ya though, Lord Coake must be one of the most pro-active heroes in existence based on what I'm hearing here. He created a tailor-made anti-tech force about 50 years before the threat they are being created to fight comes to power.

On the other hand, may be not. The calendar year in RMB was 101 PA, based on the Coalition calendar, 1 PA being the year that the Coalition officially formed and became the Coalition States. The RMB states that the Cyber-Knights first appeared on the scene '80 years' ago. The CS as an entity would be about 2 decades old at that point. I suppose by canon, that even at this early stage, the Cyber-Knights could very well have identified the CS as the greatest threat to the Earth. Something more fearsome, and evil than Vampires, the Xiticix or the Splugorth.

And somewhere along the line, Lord Coake himself forgot this, falling from the true path of resistance against the CS, when he forbade the Cyber-Knights from joining the defenders at Tolkeen.

[The Galactus Kid]

uh...or he didn't want the cyberknights to be unilaterally marked as enemies of the CS because tehy associated with the monsterusing tolkeen. He knows that associating with Dbees is totally differnt, although the CS may not see it as such, therefore it is a matter of principle.

[Kelorin]

uh...or he didn't want the cyberknights to be unilaterally marked as enemies of the CS because tehy associated with the monsterusing tolkeen. He knows that associating with Dbees is totally differnt, although the CS may not see it as such, therefore it is a matter of principle.

If their founder doesn't want them to be "unilaterally marked as enimes of the CS," then why do they hav zen combat skills to fight against tech opponents, and nothing to fight those evil magic users and their supernatural cohorts that The CK's founder recognizes as being diffrent than associating with D-bees?

You knid of shot yourself in the foot with this arguement.

I agree with Illithid13. By having specialized abilities that are only effective against a select number of possible opponents, you rather loudly declare your intentions as being hostile or aggressive against them.

It's the equivalent of a small African or Middle Eastern country somewhere developing Biogenic weapons that have a 100% kill ratio on Americans, but only an 85% kill ratio on everyone else. This same country then states that the weapons are for defensive purposes, and not aggressively intended for use against Americans.

What would you think? You would assume, and rightly so, that this no-name country is in fact gunning for you. It's the same thing for the CS, or for that matter any of the tech based Kingsdoms in NA such as the Manistique Imperium, or Ishpeming. The Cyber-Knights have developed powers that are useless against the Vampire Kingdoms, Xiticix Hives, the or the Federation of Magic. Frankly, if the CS knew what was good for them, they would round up every Cyber-Knight they could find, and have them subjected to bombardement with long range missile strikes. (since trying to have them shot by a firing squad would be nearly impossible.)

[Killer Cyborg]

So...What's the problem with substituting Zen Combat with Demon Queller abilities?

Sure, lets write a book on how they get anti-tech zen abilities. That would be logical... [/sarcasim]

I don't see why people constantly run down the Cyber-Knight book because they get new abilities, we get a basic OCC rundown in the mainbook, people never complained...As soon as KS starts tweaking it in SOT 4 the fans flip out.

Yes.
The same thing happened with Highlander II, when the writers decided to butcher the original premise of the Immortals.
People don't like needless change of good ideas.

Well if you don't like the one in SOT 4 use the one in the main book, if you don't like that one you've still got options, first of all, there's got to be an undead slayer at Coake's Monastery who's teaching anti-vampire combat, so why not give them immunity to vampire bites,

I just use the class as it is in the main book.
If anything, they're already overpowered.

Basic Principle of any RPG is "If you don't like it, Fix it yourself"

Basic principle of consumerism is "you should get quality for your money; if you don't, feel free to complain."

[Killer Cyborg]

my point is that, us players are surprised, for a change the books have shown continuity of sorts. you can say they gave a 50:50 chance of cyberknights being anti-CS/anti-tech in original OCC.
In the Mainbook Palladiumbooks not only hinted the Cyberknight occ may be anti-tech, but even specifically suggested/hinted they are anti-CS.

No.
Cyberknights were anything but anti-tech in the main book. They used tech weapons, they start off with Cyber-armor and are not opposed to cybernetics in general.
This is hardly "anti-tech."

When they confirm this hint/suggestion in a later book, we shouldn't be surprised.

No, they do NOT.
They don't "confirm" anything; they change an existing OCC, retroactively giving it vast powers that it does not need and that it did not previously have (or even hint at having).

Most players seem shocked that the cyberknight is an anti-CS occ in SOT book 4. CK's being anti-CS should not have come as a surprise to us, when all the way back in Main book, Palladiumbooks suggested they may be anti-CS.

I don't think anybody is shocked that they're anti-CS.

it is just us players chose to roleplay them as anti-supernatural. So when the Cyberknight is shown as an anti-CS occ that was hinted at right from the start, why are us lot surprised? we just went for the wrong option.

They're not options.
The Cyberknights exist to protect people from evil in any form.
It's not, and should not be, any sort of either/or situation.
Which is one of the many problems with the SoT butchery; it makes CKs into specialists.

in a world where tech is so powerful in combat, it is about time we saw anti-tech specialists. Considering how many anti-magic/supernatural occ/rcc's and even weapons/equipment that have appeared on Rifts Earth. It is about time that we started to see anti-tech things. Especially when tech appears to be so much more powerful than magic and supernatural.

Fine. I have no real problem with that.
But that only justifies making a NEW OCC, not drastically and inexplicably changing an existing OCC.

[Killer Cyborg]

yes he is. Good for him. I guess not everybody forgot thhat this is a game, nor did they forget how to play said game.

Just because something is a game does not excuse shoddy craftsmanship on the part of the creators.