Ultimate Rifts - Will Make or Break Rifts

[Phadeout]

Hmmm,

I'm just wondering how many people have expressed their problems and concerns about Rifts to Palladium directly? (through snail mail or by using the contact section of the palladium website).

My concern is that Palladium (i.e. K.S.) will make the usual mistakes. Big holes in the Combat System.
I can think of 2 already;
No stacking M.D. punch damage with M.D. weapon damage
Messed up parrying rules from GMG 4th ed - [only a -2 additional penalty to parry Energy/Bullets huh? oh oh oh, did you actually realize that this means you can Automatic Parry Energy blasts at ONLY an addition -2 penalty compared to Dodge? And that Parry bonuses are usually higher than dodge bonuses?]

And of course, the usualy holes in the story and copy pasting text rather than reading over what is already there (like in Aftermath, how it says how long a CS soldier can survive without air even though we already know that they have 72 hours of air in their suits... but the EXTRA rules once again countermind Canon rules)

Holes in the story like the Rahu-men example, of them being "NGR heroes" even though we find out later that the NGR is human supremacist.


IF palladium releases another book full of holes and without GOOD rules patches - without holes, it will not be appealing to new players (people DO read review sites, and if you read reviews, you will see that most point out problems like I listed above, and people will be turned off). Also, those who started playing Rifts since it's beginnings (like me), will not want to come back to ANOTHER book full of holes, missing details, story holes, and things in the story that just simply make no sense (let's not even start on Tolkeen here).

I think they need to sit and seriously do something called "Play Testing". At least 1 month of it. And I know for a fact it will not happen, and even if it did, it wouldn't be with a large enough group of people Outside of the palladium offices to make it worth while.

So, if you have ideas like the ones above (adding M.D. punch damage to M.D. weapon damage, the parrying issue) you may want to Contact Palladium. Of course, I don't recommend this to people who have not been playing for a long time and don't have nearly all the books so you can at least reference page numbers in your mail - Palladium will ignore you if you just Rant about how it sucks and that it should be fixed. If your not gonna be a real honest help, don't bother them and let them get back to writing and editing.


Please don't start a rules debate in this threat (make a new one if you want for that - mine are just examples past/present - you wanna debate them, start a new threat for that rule or even PM me).

Anyone have things to add about Rifts: Ultimate? Remember, us discussing things on this forum will have far less impact than if you actually send your thoughts to Palladium using the Contacts link on the main site and using the General Feedback link.


All I can do is PRAY that Rifts:Ultimate will truly be Ultimate (but I'm only giving them a small chance since I can already see that this book is being rushed to the printers as usual.......)

It's looks like they are trying to give the Fans what they want, but if you don't ask for it, you won't get it.

[cornholioprime]

There's NO such thing as a "Perfect" R.P.G.

There wil ALWAYS be holes in Story, Game Mechanics, et cetera et cetera, et cetera.

No need to throw the Baby out with the Bathwater, as the saying goes.

And NO, I don't think that this will either make OR break Rifts......

[Hystrix]

Agree with Corn. Not to mention I think this will help Rifts, not hurt it...

[Phadeout]

I know there will be some holes. If I had that much of an issue with it, I wouldn't still buy the books and play the game.

Just like I said though... the better it is, the better it will be for Palladium and the long time Fans. There is Sooooo much to the Rifts world, that I'm sure even the authors/editors have forgotten about small issues. I know, because I sent them a message and it was looked at as a helpful reminder of certain little issues/holes that can/will be fixed in Ultimate.

[The Galactus Kid]

Palladium has been asking for months about rules revisions people want to see. And I know for a fact they got tons of good responses from indiviual gamers and people on these forums. Your outcry seems to be a bit behind the times.

[Jason Richards]

Hate to break it to ya, but Rifts is already "made". It's one of the best-selling RPG's of all time.

[Phadeout]

Palladium has been asking for months about rules revisions people want to see. And I know for a fact they got tons of good responses from indiviual gamers and people on these forums. Your outcry seems to be a bit behind the times.

Yes, I've seen the older posts. Just thought I'd make a new one...

[I knew making this threat would be like jumping into lava head first, but I wanted to see what kind of responses I'd get]

Besides, not eveyone comes to the forum everyday. And it's soon to be too late for anyone to make a difference. So I guess you could say this is like "Last Call".

[The Galactus Kid]

Agreed. Thanks Jason

[Phadeout]

Hate to break it to ya, but Rifts is already "made". It's one of the best-selling RPG's of all time.

Yeah, I know. I've also seen a lot of people that have left the game, and it would be nice to see them all come back with this release.

I can honestly say, Rifts does have the coolest original story line ever and I will always love it... [group hug]

[Sureshot]

It all really depends on what they do with Ultimate Rifts. If it's 3/4 copy and paste and 1/4 new material then I can see it turning fans away en masse but not breaking Rifts. It just too popular. It's the game you love to either play or hate. Which in some strange way is a good thing.

If it's 3/4 new material 1/4 copy and paste I can see new people coming to the game and maybe even some older ones. Myself if the reused material outnumbers the new material I will not pick up and turn my back on Palladium so will at least 6 other people I know. Especially if rules contradict each other. If you are going to call it Ulitmate make sure it is. otherwise call it Rifts Ulitmate sort of.

I think Palladium in general tends to underestimate fan reactions. If this book is not above the usual standards I don't think it will sell as well as it could. Despite being one of the best sellers of all time. The average consumer is not interested about what you did before it's what you do know with a product that counts and if it's worthwhile for them to get it.

Take it from someone who has worked in retail for 5 years. The average consumer is more picky and very discriminating about what they buy. Gone are the days when items are bought on the spur of the moment. First they talk to a friend then they go online to find out more about the product.

Then again who knows it may sell very well and be the best book of all time.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

All I am seeing on this thread is a revival of old arguments (with a bit of new spin) that we have seen on these forums 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times.

[cornholioprime]

All I am seeing on this thread is a revival of old arguments (with a bit of new spin) that we have seen on these forums 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times.

What??

The SAME Arguments haven't been argued 1 Googleplex Times yet????

[cornholioprime]

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

is that even a real number?

ALL Numbers are real Numbers.

If you don't believe me, then just start at that Number there and count 'til you run out of Numbers.....(tee hee)

[Warwolf]

Holes in the story like the Rahu-men example, of them being "NGR heroes" even though we find out later that the NGR is human supremist.

Argh. I hate this misconception. The NGR is effectively human supremist. However, they weren't always that way (started out more like a militaristic Lazlo). But when their resources were strained they had to make a choice as to who to kick to the curb. Not only that, but some d-bees were allowed to stay, with some still working in the NGR (though I imagine away from prying Coalition eyes)! No sleight on you for making your statement fadeout, I've just had to correct a lot of people on this subject.

[The Galactus Kid]

Well, not Imaginary numbers.

[Toc Rat]

There was NO mention of a Rahu-man general in the NGR/Triax book. Not even a foot note saying "we had one but got rid of him". In the conversion book it clearly states that a NGR general is a Rahu-man. Pg.154
"In fact, General Rasheen, member of the Council of Governors and celebrated hero of the New German Republic, is a rahu-man."

That is not a missconception. That is not a simply out of date statement. That is Palladium lack of continuity.

[Braden Campbell]

Make or break it...?

Rifts is already broken. We're just trying to fix it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to the opperating room.

[The Galactus Kid]

Well Triax does say that d-bees are allowed, but their citizenship is limited. If this Rahu-man is a hero, he probablly has more rights than most. The NGR isn't as militant in their human supremicist views as Free Quebec of the CS.

[The Galactus Kid]

Agreed.

[Daniel Stoker]

If it's 3/4 new material 1/4 copy and paste I can see new people coming to the game and maybe even some older ones. Myself if the reused material outnumbers the new material I will not pick up and turn my back on Palladium so will at least 6 other people I know. Especially if rules contradict each other. If you are going to call it Ulitmate make sure it is. otherwise call it Rifts Ulitmate sort of.

Not to be an *** but what do you think is going to be in the book?

# Approximately 30 unique Occupational and Racial Character Classes, including Cyber-Knights, cyborgs, Glitter Boys, Psi-Stalkers, Dog Boys (mutant humanoid dogs), Juicers, Crazies, Techno-Wizards, Ley Line Walkers, Mystics, Shifters, Elemental Fusionists, Mind Melters, and many others.
# Supernatural and magical creatures, like dragons, available as player characters, others are horrifying menaces from the Rifts.
# Bionics and cybernetics offer a vast range of mechanical augmentation, meanwhile chemical enhancement (Juicers) and brain implants (Crazies) can turn a human into a superman, though with tragic results.
# Psychic powers are the source of the Burster, Mind Melter and Mystic’s abilities.
# Strange forms of magic are at the command of characters like the Ley Line Walker, Shifter, Elemental Fusionist, Rifter and Techno-Wizard (who combine magic and technology).
# Super-technology with Mega-Damage™ body armor, energy weapons, rail guns, power armor, and human augmentation.
# The Coalition States. Humankind's salvation, or its own worst nightmare?
# Character sheets.
# Cover by Scott Johnson.
# Color end sheets by John Zeleznik.
# New artwork and color pages throughout.
# Written and created by Kevin Siembieda.
# $33.95 – approx. 300 pages, including color sections.




Daniel Stoker

[RainOfSteel]

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

is that even a real number?

It's Googolplex, and it's equal to 10 ^ 10 ^ 100. A number so vast as to be far beyond comprehension. The number of zeroes is greater than the estimated number of particles in the entire universe. Converting all the matter there is in atoms to represent the zeroes would not be enough.

The search engine Google, named itself after the number googol, and it's headquarters, Googleplex after the number googolplex.

[Hystrix]

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

is that even a real number?

It's Googolplex, and it's equal to 10 ^ 10 ^ 100. A number so vast as to be far beyond comprehension. The number of zeroes is greater than the estimated number of particles in the entire universe. Converting all the matter there is in atoms to represent the zeroes would not be enough.

The search engine Google, named itself after the number googol, and it's headquarters, Googleplex after the number googolplex.

That's way off topic, and I already knew most of that, but it's still staggaring!

[RainOfSteel]

That's way off topic, and I already knew most of that, but it's still staggaring!

The drift had already gone there, I was only sliding along with it.

[Sir Blayse]

first off great sig Toc Rat...

second, palladium books have always had holes and typos and such... so what? i play the game because of it as a whole. it was the first RPG that i ever really got into and loved every since. i look past the mistakes, make of it what you want or need.
it would be nice to have a newer core book. mine is falling apart...

also, don't complain, it could be a lot worse- what if instead of putting out new books, palladium just said, "hey you complain to much, we quit..." How would you feel then?

[cornholioprime]

first off great sig Toc Rat...

second, palladium books have always had holes and typos and such... so what? i play the game because of it as a whole. it was the first RPG that i ever really got into and loved every since. i look past the mistakes, make of it what you want or need.
it would be nice to have a newer core book. mine is falling apart...

also, don't complain, it could be a lot worse- what if instead of putting out new books, palladium just said, "hey you complain to much, we quit..." How would you feel then?

Sir Blayse:

If Baghdad is REALLY where you are, then Godspeed and a safe return home.

And thank you from those f us who realize what a hard job you have to do....

NOW, BACK ON SUBJECT.......

[Sir Blayse]

yes, i am really here and thanks for the support.
those who know me from these forums, probably realize i haven't been on for about 4 or 5 months or more. a lot goes on.

i am so happy that i will be coming home soon.

but, thanks again.

my sig is for real life and my character...

[Sir Blayse]

also, there is a nine hour time difference and it is now three in the morning, which means i have to wake up in a few hours.

gotta go... i'll try and be on soon.

i plan to put together a web site on my return to the states and put my pictures from here on. i'll put the address up on the forum when i do.

adios!

[Noon]

IF palladium releases another book full of holes and without GOOD rules patches - without holes, it will not be appealing to new players (people DO read review sites, and if you read reviews, you will see that most point out problems like I listed above, and people will be turned off). Also, those who started playing Rifts since it's beginnings (like me), will not want to come back to ANOTHER book full of holes, missing details, story holes, and things in the story that just simply make no sense (let's not even start on Tolkeen here).

Hi Phadeout,

The many, many holes in the palladium system are actually an inadvertant attraction to many customers. The rules actively encourage you to use them as little as possible, in favour of the group figuring out how it would work in the game world.

Possitive effects of this:
* The game group explores the game worlds physics thoroughly, trying to figure out exactly how it works. This is a type of immersion.
* When the group decides on how something works, it's just perfect for that group and they feel very happy with how it works (it fits them like a taylor made suit)
* After awhile of this, players begin to not be able to see the difference between house rules and printed rules, and thus the printed rules fade to the background. You can spot this type of player on these boards, by the way they casually bring in ground shaking house rules as if they are the norm.

Take that 'no adding punch damage and weapon damage'. Can you see how that would drive you to a point where the positive outcomes from above might happen?

Yes, I fully concede that this can and often does lead to awful game experiences. But many players WILL come back, looking for that special moment to happen again, when the above possitive effects happened. Look at me, I'm one of them.

The palladium system gives 'curious' support to players, where they will follow the rules for a certain time, then feel an unpleasant twinge at following them any more and go into freeform exploration...then return to the more solid bits of rules latter, then get provoked to freeform again, etc.

I don't think it's implimented in a particularly healthy way, but Rifts has cornered a niche.

[Sureshot]

first off great sig Toc Rat...

second, palladium books have always had holes and typos and such... so what? i play the game because of it as a whole. it was the first RPG that i ever really got into and loved every since. i look past the mistakes, make of it what you want or need.
it would be nice to have a newer core book. mine is falling apart...

also, don't complain, it could be a lot worse- what if instead of putting out new books, palladium just said, "hey you complain to much, we quit..." How would you feel then?

True it's always had holes and I don't consider it a good thing. Not just Palladium but any game that requires me to do major reworking. Still their are many gems to be found and i love the Rifts setting.

Also why should we not complain. As long as it's not derogatory or insulting and actually is constructive why not. Or are you one of those who just wants to hear only positive things said about Palladium. For the record there are many things I like about Palladium and there are many I don't

As for them quitting the business. It does not matter much to me I will just find another game and it will be their loss not mine.

[Rimmer]

I'm as usual going to sit on the fence untill i see the book, haven't purchased palladium title in about 6 months or so cause i just plain got feed up with it the inconsistancies, errors, mistakes and ommisions, and have since started playing other games, which is a shame, with my palladium books taking up three book shelves and all, will get Ultamate Rifts, and see how it goes, it may redeem itself in my humble eyes or it may cause me to donate all my palladium books to a good cause and leave it at that. We will see.

[Shades of Eternity]

<grabs popcorn> Personally, I'm just waiting to see if my prediction unfolds.

[SirTenzan]

... I'm a little skeptical of it being THAT serious of a decision. If there was ever a make or break decision I would have thought that the SoT series was a make or break decision. Even though it modestly flopped on it's belly, it didn't break them. The Adventures in the Chi-Town Burbs series is similar. I thought that each book was a complete adventure, so I bought the first one, only to find that it's but part one of the larger story. I don't know how well they did either - all I know is that I didn't buy the others in the series. I'm sure others were similarly put off by it.

Ultimate RIFTS though? Nah, not a make or break thing. The main book was WAY too long in the tooth and needed revision badly. I think a lot of the books could use similar revisions with a bit of added detail to boot.

[The Galactus Kid]

I lked both SoT and the adventure books, but then again, I got them for free from Kevin himself, but I regularly use them as gaming resources.

[Sir Blayse]

i have all the siege on tolkeen books and the adventure books... i have yet to get my friends to play the siege on tolkeen, and after being here for a year- i don't plan to jump on another war...

i do plan to use the book for the great source of information into places that have never been explained in detail.

as for defending palladium, so one has to.

read my sig, it fits...