If you could...

[Guest]

so why use only magic?

use both, work togeather, THEY foolishly limit themselves to only tech.


no reason you have to limit yourself to only magic.

The only problem with that is most magicians are by book o.c.c. limited extensively by that. If you use tech armor, then you can't use magic effectively. Why be a mage then? They can't usually adequately cover themselves. And training in weapons is also a problem. Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Like I said, the Coalition forbids the use of magic in it's army.

there's NO reason for the Federation of Magic and Tolkeen to NOT to use both to FIGHT the coalition though.

ratehr than wasting UNGODLY amounts of money and resorces on Iorn Juggernauts, they probablly would have won if they made a factory of normal robots and power armor, with standard TW enhancements...

[Nekira Sudacne]

so why use only magic?

use both, work togeather, THEY foolishly limit themselves to only tech.


no reason you have to limit yourself to only magic.

The only problem with that is most magicians are by book o.c.c. limited extensively by that. If you use tech armor, then you can't use magic effectively. Why be a mage then? They can't usually adequately cover themselves. And training in weapons is also a problem. Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

as far as armor goes, remember that applies only to metal armor and there is almost NO metal armor, so that's not a big deal.

and training is no big deal, ANY mage can take WP: Energy Rifle as a seconday skill, then they're every bit as good as a CS grunt...

[demos606]

they just arn't as hot with doing it in combat. and ya know what? i'm cool with that. if a magic is stupid enough to allow a group of tech guys get him when he's not prepared, he DESERVES to die.

because magic, used properlly. means that group of CS soldgiers will never get a chance to begin with.

and yes, that often means escaping and running form battle until you can fight on YOUR terms.

So a mage never gets ambushed or surprised or sniped? Still not buyin your fairness and balance issues Nek because the only place the differences between Magic and Tech actually mean anything is on the battlefield. Anywhere else, Magic is a convenience but Tech can and will eventually get the same results.

As for the "suggestion" of using both, most nonCS types have no real problem with that but lets face it, eventually the CS comes lookin for a fight and when they do, your tech just aint up to the job. This leaves you looking to shore everything up with Magic and guess what, it falls short too because the CS has giant robots, EBA and lots of vehicles to protect their troops with. That leaves folks that rely on Magic in *ANY* form screwed, which is ultimately why even with magic and far better tactics than the writers gave them, the Mages lose against the CS.

[Toc Rat]

Like I said, the Coalition forbids the use of magic in it's army.

there's NO reason for the Federation of Magic and Tolkeen to NOT to use both to FIGHT the coalition though.

ratehr than wasting UNGODLY amounts of money and resorces on Iorn Juggernauts, they probablly would have won if they made a factory of normal robots and power armor, with standard TW enhancements...

A good thought. Consider that in the main book we have TW generators that run of off Ley-Lines and Nexus points. Thats effectively unlimited power for running factories(barring another SoT POOF moment) They could build production lines that could run night and day to crank out machine after machine. Then have an assembly line of TW's enhancing them with things like Impervious to energy, Invisibility, etc.

Much better then using pure magic and by limiting the amount of TW enhancements you are doing more can be done in a shorter amount of time.

[Nekira Sudacne]

they just arn't as hot with doing it in combat. and ya know what? i'm cool with that. if a magic is stupid enough to allow a group of tech guys get him when he's not prepared, he DESERVES to die.

because magic, used properlly. means that group of CS soldgiers will never get a chance to begin with.

and yes, that often means escaping and running form battle until you can fight on YOUR terms.

So a mage never gets ambushed or surprised or sniped? Still not buyin your fairness and balance issues Nek because the only place the differences between Magic and Tech actually mean anything is on the battlefield. Anywhere else, Magic is a convenience but Tech can and will eventually get the same results.

As for the "suggestion" of using both, most nonCS types have no real problem with that but lets face it, eventually the CS comes lookin for a fight and when they do, your tech just aint up to the job. This leaves you looking to shore everything up with Magic and guess what, it falls short too because the CS has giant robots, EBA and lots of vehicles to protect their troops with. That leaves folks that rely on Magic in *ANY* form screwed, which is ultimately why even with magic and far better tactics than the writers gave them, the Mages lose against the CS.

read above to the several posts I made dicussing similar points with tocrat anr Ren Sin Kai.

also remember, the CS guys need to be able to ambush. sure, it's not fair, but that's part of the advantage of tech.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Like I said, the Coalition forbids the use of magic in it's army.

there's NO reason for the Federation of Magic and Tolkeen to NOT to use both to FIGHT the coalition though.

ratehr than wasting UNGODLY amounts of money and resorces on Iorn Juggernauts, they probablly would have won if they made a factory of normal robots and power armor, with standard TW enhancements...

A good thought. Consider that in the main book we have TW generators that run of off Ley-Lines and Nexus points. Thats effectively unlimited power for running factories(barring another SoT POOF moment) They could build production lines that could run night and day to crank out machine after machine. Then have an assembly line of TW's enhancing them with things like Impervious to energy, Invisibility, etc.

Much better then using pure magic and by limiting the amount of TW enhancements you are doing more can be done in a shorter amount of time.

Bingo!

enchating a bunch of Power Armor with Impervious to Energy alone will drasticlly increase effectivness aginst Infantry.

[demos606]

CS doesnt even need ambush really, just things magic cant effectively fight, and theres plenty of it in the CS arsenal. Unless the channeling rules from Rifter are used, Mages have to pick *every* battle and be prepared well in advance to have any realistic chance at defeating a technologically superior opponent, and the CS is pretty damned superior to almost everyone in North America. The fact that the CS actively destroys Mages in its borders obviously hasnt hurt them in the battle field against opponents using magic and tech in combination. Simple fact is, Tech has all the advantages in combat and theres nothing that can be done at present to even begin leveling the field.

[Nekira Sudacne]

CS doesnt even need ambush really, just things magic cant effectively fight, and theres plenty of it in the CS arsenal. Unless the channeling rules from Rifter are used, Mages have to pick *every* battle and be prepared well in advance to have any realistic chance at defeating a technologically superior opponent, and the CS is pretty damned superior to almost everyone in North America. The fact that the CS actively destroys Mages in its borders obviously hasnt hurt them in the battle field against opponents using magic and tech in combination. Simple fact is, Tech has all the advantages in combat and theres nothing that can be done at present to even begin leveling the field.

that i'll grant.

again, I have one of two houserules I use.

in a High Adventure campaign, I allow any mage to cast any non-ritual spell in one melee actions

in more low powered campaigns, I do this.

all level 1 spells only take 1 melee action to cast.
all level 2-7 spells take 2 melee actions to cast (goes off on the second turn)
all level 8-12 spells take 3 melee actions to cast.
all level 12-15+ spells take 4 actions to cast.
Spells of Legend take a full melee to cast

all Rituals take normal time.

in addition, the mage can cast any spell up to his current level in 1 melee action, even if they otherwise cost more.

so at second level a mage can cast the spell in 1 action rather than 2.

at 8th level a mage can cast an 8th level spell in 1 action rather than 3.

at level 15 a mage can cast any non-ritual spell in 1 melee action, except Spells of Legend.

only truely Epic mages (level 15+) can cast spells of legend in one attack (and gods), and that's not likely to ever come up in game.

[demos606]

House rules don't count for Canon argument. Yes, house rules do plenty to level the playing field for Mages but they're just that - house rules. By the book, Mages are screwed 9 ways to Sunday in the combat arena and thats the flat truth. Even channeling isn't Canon because its from Rifter and not an "official sourcebook". So please explain how a Canon means for Mages to level the playing field is remotely unfair or unbalancing? The fact that combined with your house rules it's broken is irrelevant to the argument.

[Nekira Sudacne]

House rules don't count for Canon argument. Yes, house rules do plenty to level the playing field for Mages but they're just that - house rules. By the book, Mages are screwed 9 ways to Sunday in the combat arena and thats the flat truth. Even channeling isn't Canon because its from Rifter and not an "official sourcebook". So please explain how a Canon means for Mages to level the playing field is remotely unfair or unbalancing? The fact that combined with your house rules it's broken is irrelevant to the argument.

just pointing out even I don't think mages are perfect.

and didn't this arguement start about a houserule over a new anti-tech spell?

in any case, my initial position was, and is, that mages never WERE equal in combat.


in fact, if you actually read what I said I never said they were equal IN COMBAT

I said they were equal OVERALL.

[grandmaster z0b]

The anti-tech cloud woould be a spell that costs a lot of PPE (anti-magic cloud is quite high level, this would possibly be higher and cost more PPE) allow each individual piece of tech a save and that easily fair.
It wouldn't be a spell that was cast lightly and it wouldn't be unbalancing IMO.

I think your the only person who has ever said anything like this:

tech needs advantages, otherwise it'd be worthless.

magic has tons of advantages. just not in combat.

I think that if anything magic should be more powerful, that's why the most powerful beings in the megaverse use it (demon lords, Alien Intelligences, Gods etc.)

[Toc Rat]

The anti-tech cloud woould be a spell that costs a lot of PPE (anti-magic cloud is quite high level, this would possibly be higher and cost more PPE) allow each individual piece of tech a save and that easily fair.
It wouldn't be a spell that was cast lightly and it wouldn't be unbalancing IMO.

I think your the only person who has ever said anything like this:

tech needs advantages, otherwise it'd be worthless.

magic has tons of advantages. just not in combat.

I think that if anything magic should be more powerful, that's why the most powerful beings in the megaverse use it (demon lords, Alien Intelligences, Gods etc.)

Can you imagine the AIs putting there intellect in to creating super techno weapons of destruction.

[RainOfSteel]

i'm really tired of people trying to do a lot of stuff to make magic "equal" to tech. they're comparing apples and oranges.

It seems that they are not presented as being different in Rifts.

Tech Capability:
-- Attack
-- Defense
-- Misc. Utility


Magic Capability:
-- Attack
-- Defense
-- Misc. Utility

Apples and oranges are both fruit, both grow on trees, and both are yummy. Hmm, apples and oranges, and tech and magic, both seem pretty similar to me.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The anti-tech cloud woould be a spell that costs a lot of PPE (anti-magic cloud is quite high level, this would possibly be higher and cost more PPE) allow each individual piece of tech a save and that easily fair.
It wouldn't be a spell that was cast lightly and it wouldn't be unbalancing IMO.

I think your the only person who has ever said anything like this:

tech needs advantages, otherwise it'd be worthless.

magic has tons of advantages. just not in combat.

I think that if anything magic should be more powerful, that's why the most powerful beings in the megaverse use it (demon lords, Alien Intelligences, Gods etc.)

actually, Rain of Steel kind of put why they use magic even if it's not always more powerful in a surprsingly good, if not quite complete, fashion right after this post

Tech Capability:
-- Attack
-- Defense
-- Misc. Utility


Magic Capability:
-- Attack
-- Defense
-- Misc. Utility

Tech has the edge in attack.

at low levels, tech also has teh edge in defence, however at high levels magic leaves Tech in the dust in the defence department with Impentrable Wall of Force.

where magic really shins, is in Misc. Utility.


there is no comparision. magic DOMINATES UTTERLY in the misc. utility department

that's why gods adn demon lords and such use it: Conveinence.

[RainOfSteel]

that's because your only looking at magic from a combat angle. there's a freaking BOATLOAD of stuff magic can do that tech can't.

A boatload? I'm interested.

Name twenty things.

(I consider twenty things to be a boatload.)

[RainOfSteel]

"battle feild? when the hell did I say they were even on the battle feild? they're not. "

Others here have specified "the battlefield", but I'm with you on this one. Tech cleans up over magic in all situations AFAICT (however, I also await enlightenment as to possible alternatives).

[RainOfSteel]

theres NO reason they have to fight each-other at all. the smart thing to do is use both.

Except you have the beginning of the BoM, p.10, where the author (with KS cheering) goes on to say that Mages will use Magic over Tech because they know it's best.

What I want to know is, where did they acquire their reasoning processes?

[Guest]

Except you have the beginning of the BoM, p.10, where the author (with KS cheering) goes on to say that Mages will use Magic over Tech because they know it's best.

What I want to know is, where did they acquire their reasoning processes?

Good question. My Battle Magus must be enlightened, because a sword is much more effective. Of course, since it's a TW sword, it does somewhat count as using magic primarily.

[RainOfSteel]

enchating a bunch of Power Armor with Impervious to Energy alone will drasticlly increase effectivness aginst Infantry.

Hmmm.

TW items are ones that are non-functional (their guts will be ripped out by the TW), and heavily enchanted by the TW to become functional by magic.

I'm not at all sure it is possible to "enchant" functional power armor or giant robots. Maybe EBA . . .

I haven't read all the Rifts books, so if someone can point out an example of a tech-functional power armor or giant robot with working enchantments like Impervious to Energy on them, I'd be grateful.

[RainOfSteel]

CS doesnt even need ambush really [...]

I don't really like the argument that the CS won over Tolkeen because Tech was superior to Magic alone.

A lot of the CS winning had to do with the fact that, regardless, the CS was going to win. The author of the Rifts milieu had decreed that it would be so.

CWC/SoT information as presented in those books, discussed widely elsewhere, is completely nonsensical in relation to what is discussed in the RMB; it's as if two completely different CS states exist, the one in the RMB, and the one in CWC/SoT, and never the two shall meet . . .

Simple fact is, Tech has all the advantages in combat and theres nothing that can be done at present to even begin leveling the field.

However, I'm still with you on that last part.

[grandmaster z0b]

enchating a bunch of Power Armor with Impervious to Energy alone will drasticlly increase effectivness aginst Infantry.

Hmmm.

TW items are ones that are non-functional (their guts will be ripped out by the TW), and heavily enchanted by the TW to become functional by magic.

I'm not at all sure it is possible to "enchant" functional power armor or giant robots. Maybe EBA . . .

I haven't read all the Rifts books, so if someone can point out an example of a tech-functional power armor or giant robot with working enchantments like Impervious to Energy on them, I'd be grateful.

It's in the Rifts Main Book, under the techno-wizard section, and yes it's possible and quite powerful. Up to 4 TW enchantmens can be added to body armour, PA and robots.

[RainOfSteel]

If you can enchant a laser pistol to work off of magic, you can do the same with PA. It's a difference of degree and scale.

You would need a LOT of spells to do it, however. (Unless you only enchanted PARTS of it)

It should be possible to enchant, say, the armor only with spells, and leave the rest of the PA alone...but why would you do that? You could convert the whole thing to TW...give it a TW powerplant...any number of things.

What you say is true. But then, those things would be TW-items at that point. If they became disenchanted, they'd fall apart. They aren't just a "PA off the assembly line with Impervious to Energy slapped on."

[grandmaster z0b]

If you can enchant a laser pistol to work off of magic, you can do the same with PA. It's a difference of degree and scale.

You would need a LOT of spells to do it, however. (Unless you only enchanted PARTS of it)

It should be possible to enchant, say, the armor only with spells, and leave the rest of the PA alone...but why would you do that? You could convert the whole thing to TW...give it a TW powerplant...any number of things.

It's probably one of the most common things that TW can do, enchanting either EBA, PA or robots gives them the advantage of both tech and magic.
Things that run solely on magic tend to have poor damage and range when compared to tech but have other cool things like Impervious to energy, Superhuman strength, Invulnerability, and Invisibvilty which can be all added to EBA, PA or Mechs without sacrificing your rail gun for a pissweak fire bolt.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you can enchant a laser pistol to work off of magic, you can do the same with PA. It's a difference of degree and scale.

You would need a LOT of spells to do it, however. (Unless you only enchanted PARTS of it)

It should be possible to enchant, say, the armor only with spells, and leave the rest of the PA alone...but why would you do that? You could convert the whole thing to TW...give it a TW powerplant...any number of things.

What you say is true. But then, those things would be TW-items at that point. If they became disenchanted, they'd fall apart. They aren't just a "PA off the assembly line with Impervious to Energy slapped on."

Depends on how you did it.
Few technowizards are powerful enough to convert a nuclear power supply to Techno-Wizardy, but it can be done... and if only the power source is converted than it would be the only TW part.

[grandmaster z0b]

If you can enchant a laser pistol to work off of magic, you can do the same with PA. It's a difference of degree and scale.

You would need a LOT of spells to do it, however. (Unless you only enchanted PARTS of it)

It should be possible to enchant, say, the armor only with spells, and leave the rest of the PA alone...but why would you do that? You could convert the whole thing to TW...give it a TW powerplant...any number of things.

What you say is true. But then, those things would be TW-items at that point. If they became disenchanted, they'd fall apart. They aren't just a "PA off the assembly line with Impervious to Energy slapped on."

Seriously - it's in the original Rifts book, under the techno-wizard, and no you don't need to rip it all apart. It is almost quite literaly "slapped on".

[RainOfSteel]

It's in the Rifts Main Book, under the techno-wizard section, and yes it's possible and quite powerful. Up to 4 TW enchantmens can be added to body armour, PA and robots.

Oh! That was what was being discussed?

Those are still TW-Items, requiring ISP/PPE from "men of magic" in order to activate.

The whole point in rolling off conventional PA from assembly lines is to augment by industrial production the capacity of a magical state to defend itself. If they mass produce PA, and then mass-TW-enchanted them (somehow) with Impervious to Energy (Cr500,000 a pop), then those PA would still need someone who can use a TW-item at the helm. Would even a magic-driven state have enough such pilots to fill all the PA so made? Would those type of pilots want to fly around in something they couldn't use their powers out of? Would they have the spare skills to learn robot power armor combat?


I find it interesting that the conversions listed for power armor all do not list the time required. Was there errata for that somewhere?

I was thinking that enchanting a PA to have permanent Impervious to Energy, usable by anyone, would be difficult.

[RainOfSteel]

again, I have one of two houserules I use.

I've got quite a bit of personally developed rules. None of which means anything to most other people playing Rifts.

all level 1 spells [...]

The above is quite a bit more coherent that what I had thought up, so I'm stealing it! Pure theft, yes indeedy.

[cornholioprime]

oh yes, for the people for teh anti-tech cloud. please keep this in mind.


Anti-magic cloud is a MAGIC spell. meaning it's MAGIC designed to counter other magic. Technology can NOT do anything even REMOTELY like it.

Anti-Tech cloud is a MAGIC spell, designed to counter tech. Tech has no counter. while magic has no counter to anti-magic cloud, guess what, TECH CAN'T DO IT. so it's not even close to the same thing.

What in blazes does THAT whole last Sentence mean??

You speakin' Gobbely now???

[RainOfSteel]

[...]

Anti-Tech cloud is a MAGIC spell, designed to counter tech. Tech has no counter. while magic has no counter to anti-magic cloud, guess what, TECH CAN'T DO IT. so it's not even close to the same thing.

What in blazes does THAT whole last Sentence mean??

You speakin' Gobbely now???

I took it to mean, "Magic can suppress itself, and the new spell would allow Magic to suppress Tech, but Tech can't suppress Magic in the same way that Magic can suppress Tech, so the new spell is unfair because Magic would be able to suppress both Tech and Magic when Tech can only suppress Tech*." I can see what the statement says, though I don't agree that the new spell would be "unfair" based on the reasoning given.

*And I append "that we know of" onto that, because ultra-tech of some sort could possibly suppress Magic (we all remember Obi-Wan floating in that weird field in SWII:AotC, right).

[cornholioprime]

There is good reason to have a problem. You see there are some nasty people out there that hate mages. The are also mass murders to say the least. NO talking about it, NO running away. They are coming for each and every spell caster in the world...and they want you dead, dead, dead.

So, that being the case, mages have either two choices.
One: Fight
Two: Die

Thats it. Thats the choice. Now here's the rest of it, the ones that want all the mages dead? They use Technology. Technology, as everyone here as agreed, beats magic hands down in combat. "battle feild? when the hell did I say they were even on the battle feild? they're not. "

It seems to me that if mages will be required to fight or die(that means combat) against tech foes, then they should have compairable abilities "on the battlefield".

Otherwise they will just be stomped in to the ground...and tech goes marching on...

so why use only magic?

use both, work togeather, THEY foolishly limit themselves to only tech.


no reason you have to limit yourself to only magic.

Please note that one of my OTHER recurring Arguments about Rifts in general is that God (read: KS) makes most of these Kingdoms the world 'round ONLY rely on one or the other.

If you were a Magic Kingdom in "Real" Life and saw that the Enemy's Physical Tech had TWICE the range of your Magic, would you limit yourself SOLELY to Magic?? I think not. I think that Stormspire Weps would be in the Armory side by side with your Naruni Rifles.

Likewise, if you were a Tech State and had a run-in with a few dozen Murder-Wraiths, would you stick exclusively to tech and HOPE that you could keep enough Silver fielded?? What if those same Murder Wraiths had Protective Magic Amulets to boot??

Yet another reason that I "like" the (mostly) Human Supremacist Nation of Colombia more than almost anywhere else.

Colombia is one of the most "realistically" written City-States in Rifts.......

[demos606]

[...]

Anti-Tech cloud is a MAGIC spell, designed to counter tech. Tech has no counter. while magic has no counter to anti-magic cloud, guess what, TECH CAN'T DO IT. so it's not even close to the same thing.

What in blazes does THAT whole last Sentence mean??

You speakin' Gobbely now???

I took it to mean, "Magic can suppress itself, and the new spell would allow Magic to suppress Tech, but Tech can't suppress Magic in the same way that Magic can suppress Tech, so the new spell is unfair because Magic would be able to suppress both Tech and Magic when Tech can only suppress Tech*." I can see what the statement says, though I don't agree that the new spell would be "unfair" based on the reasoning given.

*And I append "that we know of" onto that, because ultra-tech of some sort could possibly suppress Magic (we all remember Obi-Wan floating in that weird field in SWII:AotC, right).

Tech may not be able to supress magic completely in an area but there is plenty of Tech available that screws up the "normal rules" of magic. There is little or no magic available to screw up the "normal rules" of tech beyond damage mitigation/immunity and those are temporary when granted by a spell.

[cornholioprime]

theres NO reason they have to fight each-other at all. the smart thing to do is use both.

Except you have the beginning of the BoM, p.10, where the author (with KS cheering) goes on to say that Mages will use Magic over Tech because they know it's best.

What I want to know is, where did they acquire their reasoning processes?

Read the whole Article in context.

Kevin was essentially saying that Mages "know" that Magic is better than Tech because they prefer it.

Just like their counterparts in Tech would say for their side.

[Toc Rat]

How about this for a TW production line? It uses mostly cannon rules for TW items. I say mostly because except for a Rifter I heard about having actual real rules for making TW items, there is only the bare bones listed in the main book. The ultimate edition will supposedly correct this.

A magic nation, such as Lazlo, creates a factory for the production of one of the common types of body armor. The factory itself is powered by a Nexus point of Ley-line. That is really not the important part, what is important is what happens to the suits being made.

Lets just say the factory produced a knock-off of the Bushman armor. A half decent suit, not as much MDC as the newer types but you should live thru one or two hits from most infantry level weapons. The armor is modified with a special compartment on the back. In this small compartment are four slots much like USB ports. A second mod is the attacthment of a cylindrical compartment about the size of a two D-cell batteries. In all other repsects the body armor is identical to the standard Bushman armor offered by the Black Market or Northern Gun.

Now here comes the TW part. On a seperate assembly line you have a machine cranking out little devices that look a lot like datasticks or jumpdrives. Just instead of a little light being on the end, there is a small crystal. Inside these little items are what look like electrical circuits. They look normal but the "circuits" are in the shape of various runes. For example if you wanted to have one enchanted with Impervious to Energy, the circuit would be in the shape of the runes for Protection and Energy. The completed circuit travels down the assembly line to where Techno-Wizards are waiting. As each circuit passes by, they "Imprint" we will call it, the circuit with the spell of the appropiate type. They are then taken and installed in the waiting body armor.

Standard chips installed would be Super Human Speed, Super Human Strength, Armor of Ithan and Impervious to Energy. The suits would also be able to be easily modified for different missions. Take out the Armor of Ithan chip and put in a Swim as a Fish for underwater operations. Use a Shadowmeld chip for stealth missions.

The PPE battery would serve a dual purpose. For a magic or psychic user it would allow them to save their personal PPS or ISP for other uses. For a non-magic or Psychic user the PPE battery would power the TW circuitry. The TW enhancements could be controlled thru the built in mini-computer installed in all EBAs.

Due to the assembly line nature of the chips, they would not function at the same level. If a mage was to power the TW circuit with his own personal PPE it would function at his level. If using the PPE battery, weather a mage or non-mage, the TW enhancements would fucntion at level 1.

Something like this would be a great help to magic using nations. It would give TW creations a unprecedented flexibility and adaptibility.

Comments?

[grandmaster z0b]

It's in the Rifts Main Book, under the techno-wizard section, and yes it's possible and quite powerful. Up to 4 TW enchantmens can be added to body armour, PA and robots.

Oh! That was what was being discussed?

Those are still TW-Items, requiring ISP/PPE from "men of magic" in order to activate.

The whole point in rolling off conventional PA from assembly lines is to augment by industrial production the capacity of a magical state to defend itself. If they mass produce PA, and then mass-TW-enchanted them (somehow) with Impervious to Energy (Cr500,000 a pop), then those PA would still need someone who can use a TW-item at the helm. Would even a magic-driven state have enough such pilots to fill all the PA so made? Would those type of pilots want to fly around in something they couldn't use their powers out of? Would they have the spare skills to learn robot power armor combat?


I find it interesting that the conversions listed for power armor all do not list the time required. Was there errata for that somewhere?

I was thinking that enchanting a PA to have permanent Impervious to Energy, usable by anyone, would be difficult.

Oh I see where the confusion lies. TW additions to robots seems more reasonable on mass because you could have a normal pilot and a magic/psychic co-pilot who would power the TWizardry.

Also remember that approx. 25% of the human population is psychic so any of these could use TW.

[demos606]

1. Instantaniously create matter with very little energy

2. Instantly travle from one point to another.
- Hope the destination is well known
3. scry and sixth sense...allow you to know things about objects by just "looking" at it.
- Since when does scry or 6th sense have anything to do with object reading?
4. alter the stucture of matter with very little energy.

5. Alter time with respect to the caster.

6. Alter spcae/distances with very little energy, again with respect to the caster

7. change energy into matter, and vice versa

8. make non-burning fire
- Who needs fire for heat or light in Rifts? Parlor trick quality at best
9. makes construction alot easier.
- Purely convenience
10. easy to obtain said construction materials
- Convenience again, robots are usually better for obtaining materials btw, much less wasted energy
11. alter gravity

12. cures what ailes you
- So does medicine, and where exactly *are* the illnesses in Rifts?
13. help break the language barrier
- huh??? is a translator for? You don't even need tech for this one
14. make pretty sculptures
- And why would any mage in their right mind waste their energy on sculpting when there are perfectly capable mundanes to do it for a few credits?
15. alter the environment
- Ever seen the effects of an atomic explosion or massive volcanic eruption on the local environment?
16. breath without air...makes underwater exploration easy

17. cloud mens minds

18. alter weather paterns
- see 15
19. tired of construction? well demolitions is just as easy
- This is what explosives were made for, yet another pure convenience
20. entertain the kids
- You didn't go here? Somebody please tell me he didn't really go here. Once again, parlor tricks at best and not even true magic, any 3rd rate clown with flash powder can accomplish this one; or you can just send the kids out to play with the family dog and skip the stupidity entirely

[grandmaster z0b]

that's because your only looking at magic from a combat angle. there's a freaking BOATLOAD of stuff magic can do that tech can't.

A boatload? I'm interested.

Name twenty things.

(I consider twenty things to be a boatload.)

Twenty things eh? I think I will give it a go.

1. Instantaniously create matter with very little energy

2. Instantly travle from one point to another.

3. scry and sixth sense...allow you to know things about objects by just "looking" at it.

4. alter the stucture of matter with very little energy.

5. Alter time with respect to the caster.

6. Alter spcae/distances with very little energy, again with respect to the caster

7. change energy into matter, and vice versa

8. make non-burning fire

9. makes construction alot easier.

10. easy to obtain said construction materials

11. alter gravity

12. cures what ailes you

13. help break the language barrier

14. make pretty sculptures

15. alter the environment

16. breath without air...makes underwater exploration easy

17. cloud mens minds

18. alter weather paterns

19. tired of construction? well demolitions is just as easy

20. entertain the kids

There, I think I have done it, a "boatload" of things that magic can do, outside of combat.

They were looking for 20 things that magic can do that tech cannot, everything from 9 down can be done by tech to some degree. Although I don't think it would actually be that hard to think of another 11 things. Even "cloud mens minds" can be done through drugs and brainwashing, or even neural implants, maybe "control a person's mind" would be better.

[RainOfSteel]

Tech may not be able to supress magic completely in an area but there is plenty of Tech available that screws up the "normal rules" of magic. There is little or no magic available to screw up the "normal rules" of tech beyond damage mitigation/immunity and those are temporary when granted by a spell.

Oh, I agree with you on those points.

I was just taking a stab at relating how I interpreted a certain statement.

[RainOfSteel]

Read the whole Article in context.

Kevin was essentially saying that Mages "know" that Magic is better than Tech because they prefer it.

Just like their counterparts in Tech would say for their side.

I believe I did.

It just didn't make a lot of sense. I suppose that some mages could be blinded by their prejudices, but all of them? In the face of such overwhelming evidence?

[Guest]

1. Instantaniously create matter with very little energy

2. Instantly travle from one point to another.
- Hope the destination is well known
3. scry and sixth sense...allow you to know things about objects by just "looking" at it.
- Since when does scry or 6th sense have anything to do with object reading?
4. alter the stucture of matter with very little energy.

5. Alter time with respect to the caster.

6. Alter spcae/distances with very little energy, again with respect to the caster

7. change energy into matter, and vice versa

8. make non-burning fire
- Who needs fire for heat or light in Rifts? Parlor trick quality at best
9. makes construction alot easier.
- Purely convenience
10. easy to obtain said construction materials
- Convenience again, robots are usually better for obtaining materials btw, much less wasted energy
11. alter gravity

12. cures what ailes you
- So does medicine, and where exactly *are* the illnesses in Rifts?
13. help break the language barrier
- *** is a translator for? You don't even need tech for this one
14. make pretty sculptures
- And why would any mage in their right mind waste their energy on sculpting when there are perfectly capable mundanes to do it for a few credits?
15. alter the environment
- Ever seen the effects of an atomic explosion or massive volcanic eruption on the local environment?
16. breath without air...makes underwater exploration easy

17. cloud mens minds

18. alter weather paterns
- see 15
19. tired of construction? well demolitions is just as easy
- This is what explosives were made for, yet another pure convenience
20. entertain the kids
- You didn't go here? Somebody please tell me he didn't really go here. Once again, parlor tricks at best and not even true magic, any 3rd rate clown with flash powder can accomplish this one; or you can just send the kids out to play with the family dog and skip the stupidity entirely

Pretty good, except 6th sense and object read isn't magic, it's psionic.

[RainOfSteel]

The standard proposed was "Stuff Magic can do that Tech can't."

Points after "--" are my material added into the quote-block.

Twenty things eh? I think I will give it a go.

1. Instantaniously create matter with very little energy
-- Ok.


2. Instantly travle from one point to another.
-- Tech can do this (fold-drives, etc.).


3. scry and sixth sense...allow you to know things about objects by just "looking" at it.
-- Scry and Sixth Sense don't do that, but I'll give you that Object Read typically isn't something that Tech is associated with (except when Tech and Psi are equivocated).


4. alter the stucture of matter with very little energy.
-- I can alter the structure of matter with a match . . . what do you mean, exactly?

5. Alter time with respect to the caster.
-- Tech can do this, too.


6. Alter spcae/distances with very little energy, again with respect to the caster
-- Could you be more specific?

7. change energy into matter, and vice versa
-- I guess we shouldn't be getting into the "there's no such thing as a difference between energy and matter, and that solidity is just frozen energy" thing.


8. make non-burning fire
-- Ok. Now, when your keister is in the fire . . . no, that wasn't the standard proposed, nevermind.

9. makes construction alot easier.
-- So do techological nanofactories.


10. easy to obtain said construction materials
-- Tech does this too.

11. alter gravity
-- Tech does this too.


12. cures what ailes you
-- Tech does this too.


13. help break the language barrier
-- Magic does it better, but Tech does it too.


14. make pretty sculptures
-- Tech does it too.


15. alter the environment
-- Tech does it too.


16. breath without air...makes underwater exploration easy
-- Breathing without air isn't possible, because if something let's you go without air, you aren't breathing. But, in the end, Tech let's you explore underwater, too.


17. cloud mens minds
-- Ever heard of LSD? (Or maybe the Rep . . . oops, nevermind.)


18. alter weather paterns
-- Tech can do that too.

19. tired of construction? well demolitions is just as easy
-- Tech has that.

20. entertain the kids
-- Tech is fun.

There, I think I have done it, a "boatload" of things that magic can do, outside of combat.

That was not what was requested. We wanted a "boatload" of things that Magic can do that Tech can't.

[RainOfSteel]

Even "cloud mens minds" can be done through drugs and brainwashing, or even neural implants, maybe "control a person's mind" would be better.

Except that Tech can do that, too.

[RainOfSteel]

Hey, cut me some slack, the individual who orginally posted that challenge said twenty examples counted as "a boatload".

It was me.

However, it wasn't me who said "boatload". 10 isn't a boatload, and personally I think 20 is rather low.

The practical point of calling for 20 was, by implication, me stating that there weren't nearly so many things that Magic can do that Tech can't as was proposed.

--Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Magic = Tech when viewed from the perspective of the "Big Picture", except in Rifts, where the implementation of Magic is inferior to Tech in most, but not all, ways.

[Toc Rat]

A civilized exchange of views

The scene, on one side of a open field somewhere in Minnesota, a rare meeting unfolds. Two men, one from the Coalition and one from Tolkeen have come to exchange their views on magic and technology. Debates like these have frequently occurred and are called “fire fights”. This time however, the two sides are using no weapons greater then their words. 1st Lt. Jimmy Patterson of the great Coalition state of Chi-Town and Elfinster the Wizard from the wonderful city of Tolkeen.

Elfinster: You can’t win this war you know, our magic is far superior to your technology.
Lt. Patterson: Really? Name 20 things you can do we cant…and better.
Elfinster: With my magic I can run at superhuman speeds!
Lt. Patterson: Oh really? Just how fast is superhuman?
Elfinster: I can run at 30 MPH without tiring for 5 minutes!
Lt. Patterson: 30 miles per hour huh? Private McRunfast! Front and center!
Private McRunfast: Sir!
Lt. Patterson: Private, how fast was your last PT test?
Private McRunfast: Sir I was clocked at 66 MPH sir!
Elfinster: Wait! That’s not fair, that man is a Juicer!
Lt. Patterson: What’s your point? It’s just technology right?
Elfinster: *grumbling*
Lt. Patterson: That will be all private.
Elfinster: Well with my magic I can create a cloud of smoke to blind my enemies. Watch this! (casts Cloud of Smoke) *30 foot area covered by smoke*
Lt. Patterson: Very nice, watch this, (pulls and throws smoke grenade) *40 foot area is covered by smoke* Mine is bigger.
Elfinster: No matter! I can become invisible at will! (casts Invisibility) Hah! Now you can’t see me.
Lt. Patterson: *picks up rock, throws it at Elfinster*
Elfinster: Ouch! Hey, how’d you see me?
Lt. Patterson: *taps side of helmet* Thermal optics built in the helmet my technologically impaired friend.
Elfinster: Curses foiled again! Now I will have to show you some real magic! (casts Armor of Ithan) Now I am completely protected from harm! This mystic armor of the great dwarven king Ithan grants me 50 MDC.
Lt. Patterson: Really? 50 huh? You must be 5th level then?
Elfinster: *puffs out chest* That’s right.
Lt. Patterson: Private Johnson post!
Private Johnson: Sir!
Lt. Patterson: Private Johnson just graduated from basic training two weeks ago. Private what is the MDC of your CA-1 heavy body armor?
Private Johnson: 80 MDC sir!
Elfinster: *grumbles more*
Lt. Patterson: Thank you private, return to your post.
Elfinster: Ok, now I will show you the power of magic.
Lt. Patterson: Still waiting…
Elfinster: Watch this! (casts Call Lightning, blasts near by tree)
Lt. Patterson: Wow, how far can you hit something with that?
Elfinster: 300 feet if I’m not near a Ley-line or nexus point.
Lt. Patterson: *Draws C-18 laser pistol, sights a tree 800 feet out, blasts it*
Elfinster: ….
Lt. Patterson: And that was only this little pistol.

Too be contined…

[jade von delioch]

i would like to see, extend life: the magic would help the cells of the body of the mage to remain younger longer thosely giving a human the life expect. of a elf and the life expect. of a elf be like that of a dragon..

[Nekira Sudacne]

A extend life spell would be rather nice. It must take decades for a wizard to come even close to 15th level. I bet most die of old age or combat long before they ever make it that far. Something to extend their life would be needed in order for them to live long enough to master their chosen field.

the Geomantic Immortals from Nightbane are a solid attempt at this. though like everything in Nightbane it comes at a price.

[Toc Rat]

Something for Rifts that extends life would be nice. Nightbane/spawn is kind of its own world seperate from the rest of Palladium

[Nekira Sudacne]

Something for Rifts that extends life would be nice. Nightbane/spawn is kind of its own world seperate from the rest of Palladium

I'm hinting maybe you should just port it over. ya know, like Palladium Copy/pastes so much anyway

[Toc Rat]

I'm hinting maybe you should just port it over. ya know, like Palladium Copy/pastes so much anyway

Cut n Paste...the Palladium SOP.

[RainOfSteel]

The following refers back to: Here.

How about this for a TW production line?

[...]

Something like this would be a great help to magic using nations. It would give TW creations a unprecedented flexibility and adaptibility.

Comments?

I like it. We'd have to work on the PPE, cost, TW labor, and time requirements.

But it certainly would give the CS pause to realize the sort of infantry they'd be facing.

Especially if the TW artisans included the Augmentation spell I posted as a part of the chips.

In fact, we'd have to work rather heavily on nexi capabilities. IIRC, isn't the big nexi in Lazlo already tapped to power the city? You should only be able to tap a nexi to do so much, based on the overall strength of the nexi.