Do you support the Coalition? Come vote.

[RainOfSteel]

The CS isn't helping humanity to survive, because what it does is try to rob them of everything that makes us human: compassion, wisdom, and reason.

<cheers, band-music, stadium-wave />

[cornholioprime]

The CS isn't helping humanity to survive, because what it does is try to rob them of everything that makes us human: compassion, wisdom, and reason.

<cheers, band-music, stadium-wave />

In many ways, agreed.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The CS isn't helping humanity to survive, because what it does is try to rob them of everything that makes us human: compassion, wisdom, and reason.

<cheers, band-music, stadium-wave />

In many ways, agreed.

yup

[RainOfSteel]

Most of the people in the CS are good people, ignorant, bigoted, and hateful people.

Could you rephrase that, please?

That's a load of hooey. Everyone, man, woman, and child is responsible for their own actions and attitudes.

In general, I agree. Except for the children part. Most small children aren't capable of controlling many of their basic impulses. (Final brain development does not occur until the 18-22 age range, anyway)

[RainOfSteel]

especially when KS uses the "CS is not actually very damaged by the War (save for the navy) because they used all the wannabe citizens from the burbs as their cannon fodder in Tolkein" route.

That is one of the most ridiculous loads of <censored> in the books.

The majority of the Burb-town population would, for the most part, not even sign up for military service. If anyone knows of CS oppression, lies, and corruption first-hand, it's the permanent Burb residents. The majority would not believe a word about CS lies in regards to Tolkeen.

If you can't tax them, you'll definitely have a tough time drafting them with anything other than press gangs (which would cause people to flee the burbs as quickly as they had arrived there).

[RainOfSteel]

yup but as long as players and gm want more coalition stuff the more he going to give us

Sadly, I do not think fans and customers have anything to do with the process that decides what happens in the storyline.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

especially when KS uses the "CS is not actually very damaged by the War (save for the navy) because they used all the wannabe citizens from the burbs as their cannon fodder in Tolkein" route.

That is one of the most ridiculous loads of <censored> in the books.

The majority of the Burb-town population would, for the most part, not even sign up for military service. If anyone knows of CS oppression, lies, and corruption first-hand, it's the permanent Burb residents. The majority would not believe a word about CS lies in regards to Tolkeen.

If you can't tax them, you'll definitely have a tough time drafting them with anything other than press gangs (which would cause people to flee the burbs as quickly as they had arrived there).

more lies from the "truth telling people from lazlo , now go back to your dragon master and drink his kool-aid

[cornholioprime]

yup but as long as players and gm want more coalition stuff the more he going to give us

Sadly, I do not think fans and customers have anything to do with the process that decides what happens in the storyline.

I have to disagree with you there.

Except for a few tiny blurbs in the Rifts: Aftermath Book, almost ALL of the innovation going on in Rifts Earth going on today happens in the C-States.

Hell, even Triax hasn't had a new Book, with new equipment, now in what?? 10 (Real World) years?

And they are perhaps THE most besieged force on Rifts Earth today!!!

I don't know for sure what KS's motivations are for advancing the CS (CWC, etc.), and keeping the rest of the world in relative stasis, as it were, but there's GOT to be a "bottom line" Thing going on at Palladium Books somehwere.

Just ask those Lemuria or Austrailia 2 "fans" (Fans, that is, of Books that will probably NEVER see the light of day....)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yup but as long as players and gm want more coalition stuff the more he going to give us

Sadly, I do not think fans and customers have anything to do with the process that decides what happens in the storyline.

I have to disagree with you there.

Except for a few tiny blurbs in the Rifts: Aftermath Book, almost ALL of the innovation going on in Rifts Earth going on today happens in the C-States.

Hell, even Triax hasn't had a new Book, with new equipment, now in what?? 10 (Real World) years?

And they are perhaps THE most besieged force on Rifts Earth today!!!

I don't know for sure what KS's motivations are for advancing the CS (CWC, etc.), and keeping the rest of the world in relative stasis, as it were, but there's GOT to be a "bottom line" Thing going on at Palladium Books somehwere.

Just ask those Lemuria or Austrailia 2 "fans" (Fans, that is, of Books that will probably NEVER see the light of day....)

very true makes one wonder

[RainOfSteel]

more lies from the "truth telling people from lazlo , now go back to your dragon master and drink his kool-aid

My dragon-master serves up Power-Aide, thank you!.

[Larsen]

but just because FQ turned on the coalition doesnt mean FQ is any better remember most of the coalition's anti b-dee policy are straight from FQ itself

From what I have read it seems more that the prosek tightened his riens and when free quebec showed its resolve and didn't fall in line prosek instead of giving an inch or compromising decided to go the route of calling fq a traitor. fq was always an independant nation that only joined the cs because of their mutual hate of d-bees. This whole thing between fq and cs shows how power hungry prosek truely is.

EDIT: also I hope that when the cs battles fq they destroy each other.

[Trencher]

There is no option for what my choice would have been.
CS is a nation which has been corrupted by the Prosek family.
You don't have to kill all the citizens or the soldiers to defeat the coalition. I think that the players longterm goals should be to build up an country with equal rights for all and then defeat the coalition in war. You don't kill all enemys in war. The war criminals in the coalition mainly officers and the top bosses deserve execution for their crimes against d-beeity but the average grunt could get off with the proverbial slap on the wrist as far I am concerned.

[Larsen]

There is no option for what my choice would have been.
CS is a nation which has been corrupted by the Prosek family.
You don't have to kill all the citizens or the soldiers to defeat the coalition. I think that the players longterm goals should be to build up an country with equal rights for all and then defeat the coalition in war. You don't kill all enemys in war. The war criminals in the coalition mainly officers and the top bosses deserve execution for their crimes against d-beeity but the average grunt could get off with the proverbial slap on the wrist as far I am concerned.

agreed. but sadly I fear that because of proseks cowardice, manipulation of the average citizens mind, and stubborn refusal to leave if he is the losing one that it may take all of the citizens of the cs being killed to get to prosek and his lackeys.

[Toc Rat]

That could be but I think it would be possible to save the majority of the people of Chi-town. Once the leadership had changed or been replaced the rest of the states would fall in line. Chi-town is the key, whichever way it turns will determine the course of the rest of the states.

[Blight]

I think the only way to save the world is to shut down the rifts, redo the spell Atlantis did to drain the lay lines in the fist place, Then all the supernaturals would go away or die. New monsters would less likely the spluggies would go by-by. and the world would be SDC! sure it would suck for the mages but were talking the greater good here.

[Jimmy Crat]

Most of the people in the CS are good people, ignorant, bigoted, and hateful people.

Could you rephrase that, please?

That didn't sound the way I said it, err, well, I'll try again.

Most of the people of the CS are good people, with good hearts. But our characters (and alignments) are not based on intentions or ideals, but actions. With those "innocent" civilians cheering the war in Tolkeen and teaching their children that the CS is the epitome of honor, they don't seem so innocent.

That's a load of hooey. Everyone, man, woman, and child is responsible for their own actions and attitudes.

In general, I agree. Except for the children part. Most small children aren't capable of controlling many of their basic impulses. (Final brain development does not occur until the 18-22 age range, anyway)

I'd agree for the younger children, but even if actions are taken that could be argued as "not their fault", they would recognize these mistakes and made attempts at restitution if they are really "good people".

[Trencher]

agreed. but sadly I fear that because of proseks cowardice, manipulation of the average citizens mind, and stubborn refusal to leave if he is the losing one that it may take all of the citizens of the cs being killed to get to prosek and his lackeys.

If you lead an army of brodikills and orcs to get them then maybe.
But an army lead of humans with all that hi-tech stuff could win and keep civillian losses from becoming so great that all humans get wiped out.

[dark brandon]

Though, knowing how much KS absolutely adores his little Nazi's... I wouldn't be surprised to see every Magical/Psionic kindom fall to the military powerhouses that are the CS and Quebec.
especially when KS uses the "CS is not actually very damaged by the War (save for the navy) because they used all the wannabe citizens from the burbs as their cannon fodder in Tolkein" route. I guarantee he will use it again and again.

Your comment is very close to getting out of hand. KS adores his creation which is RIFTS. Wether you like it or not, CS is a major part of it. These are the VILLAINS as much as PC's. Tolkeen was mentioned in a few books, but you were never given any great detail of what tolkeen was until it was destoried. For all purpose, from the time I started reading, I always got the feeling that If CS did go to war with tolkeen, it would fall. I think even Tarn mentions it in the first book. Kevin probably should have just written one book that said "CS wins the war. Here are the stats on tolkeen, here are the CS heros when it's over, here's what's left when it's done and here's how the continent is changed", and left it at that and let the GM's and players achieve that end. But, That does not mean KS adores his "nazi's". In all honesty, I think the main reason so many people are worked up is that the "Bad guys won" and well...that just can't happen. I mean...bad guys...winning? Read the SoT books, Tolkeen wasn't any better than CS at the end. The only reason so many people got it into their heads CS = Bad is because we had like 11 books come out saying "CS is bad". It was drilled into us. Remember, Tolkeen eventually sold it's soul and started recruting demons. At least CS, as evil as they may be, have never done such a thing. This is why magic is dangerous. /rant

-------

Humans have lived before "freedom" was a concept. For a majority of history, Humanity has always lived under the boot of some "ruler". The denial of education didn't make people living in the dark ages any less "human". Just because they supress education does not mean nessissarily they hurt humanity as a whole. CS citizens do show compasion, reason and wisdom. Compasion for their fellow man. Reason that magic corrupts. Need proof? Look at Siege on tolkeen...when Magic users are pushed into a corner, they will sell their souls to control demons. Wisdom, You cannot be save with an enemie at your door step. Best to stop them NOW while you can than wait and hope they forget about you.

Just look at todays world. Our enemies is half way across the world, but look how easily we give up pieces of our freedom for security. Now imagine if they were only a few hundred miles away. And could teleport twice per day up to 500 miles. I can see a need to have a government that isn't bound by red-tape. CS may be safe, but it's not safe enough to allow people to want to achieve "free thought". Eventually, when CS is truely "Safe" the government will evolve and may very well evolve into a democracy like the one we see in Britan. But not now.

Remember, Dispite what you may feel, Proseks are not cowards. They may not fight in the trenches, but neither do we place our president in a war front. You don't put leaders into battles. And they take out enemies before their enemies get to the point where they actually can put up a fight. They are smart, and most of all dangrous.

The majority of the Burb-town population would, for the most part, not even sign up for military service. If anyone knows of CS oppression, lies, and corruption first-hand, it's the permanent Burb residents. The majority would not believe a word about CS lies in regards to Tolkeen.

It's also been stated that CS is as safe as it gets. It's even been stated that the residents of the burbs stay residents of the burbs, because it's safer than being out there. They probably wouldnt believe anything CS says, but for a chance to get them, and their families into one of the safest places in the world (Actually just NA I think), they'll swollow the lies.

Sadly, I do not think fans and customers have anything to do with the process that decides what happens in the storyline.

I disagree. CS is a huge villain group. If you are in NA then you are afraid of the CS. *unless your a munchkin or insane/a Crazy* I know I would have been more peeved to lose CS than tolkeen. CS, being mentioned in so many books, CS having possibly the most detailed 'nation' there is just simply wiped from the game. Tolkeen was ment to be destoryed, it was only really harped on in the SoT books. Unfortunatly HOW he did it not many liked.

I don't know for sure what KS's motivations are for advancing the CS (CWC, etc.), and keeping the rest of the world in relative stasis, as it were, but there's GOT to be a "bottom line" Thing going on at Palladium Books somehwere.

CS. THe villains you love to hate. From what I understand, a majority of players play mainly NA, other places are like "Offshoots". Kinda like tarn, she visits these places, but never actually stays always goes home to NA. And perhaps the reason he advances them so much is because the players he meets at cons/write him letters are probably Big CS fans (Fans as in, OMG they are so evil, my PC's always beat them up and they fall of the internetz!)

This whole thing between fq and cs shows how power hungry prosek truely is.

EDIT: also I hope that when the cs battles fq they destroy each other.

The FQ thing showed me that Prosek is a true Genious. As opposed to continueing a war on two fronts he made peace. Also, it is MY belief (It's never stated either way) that he honestly felt bad for starting a war with quebec. After the Demon slaughter of Quebec forces, Karl probably realized that 1) you catch more flies with honey than with viniger and 2) They are still humans who fight for humans, even humans that they are enemies 3) he needs those troops in tolkeen. He may be evil, but that doesn't mean he isn't compasionate about some things. I think they will be allies, and while He is still power-hungry, he'll allow the people of Quebec to mearly idolize him from afar. After reading the speech, it would be politically dangerous to start any kind of war with them. CS citizens were happy the war with quebec was done. He will play nice, and play hero to them whenever he can. If CS winz RIFTS, the history books will read "Karl Prozek, a true human: Made a mistake and was man enough to fess up to it."

Wow...this is some responce. Reminds me of Killer Instinct, just one hit after another BAM BAM BAM...

ULTRA COMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

[Larsen]

This whole thing between fq and cs shows how power hungry prosek truely is.

EDIT: also I hope that when the cs battles fq they destroy each other.

The FQ thing showed me that Prosek is a true Genious. As opposed to continueing a war on two fronts he made peace. Also, it is MY belief (It's never stated either way) that he honestly felt bad for starting a war with quebec. After the Demon slaughter of Quebec forces, Karl probably realized that 1) you catch more flies with honey than with viniger and 2) They are still humans who fight for humans, even humans that they are enemies 3) he needs those troops in tolkeen. He may be evil, but that doesn't mean he isn't compasionate about some things. I think they will be allies, and while He is still power-hungry, he'll allow the people of Quebec to mearly idolize him from afar. After reading the speech, it would be politically dangerous to start any kind of war with them. CS citizens were happy the war with quebec was done. He will play nice, and play hero to them whenever he can. If CS winz RIFTS, the history books will read "Karl Prozek, a true human: Made a mistake and was man enough to fess up to it."

Wow...this is some responce. Reminds me of Killer Instinct, just one hit after another BAM BAM BAM...

ULTRA COMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't say much about prosek forgiving or backing down from fighting free quebec as I've never read any such thing. Of course the most recent book I have is rifts canada world book 20.

[dark brandon]

I can't say much about prosek forgiving or backing down from fighting free quebec as I've never read any such thing. Of course the most recent book I have is rifts canada world book 20.

It's cool, it was in the SoT book after Sorcerers Revenge (I forget) or maybe it was in book 6. Either way, what happend is that Q. made a deal with Tolkeen to fight against a common enemie. tolkeen would send some aid to Q'.s side, and would surprise CS, since they would not be expecting to fight both a magical and tech enemies. Right after Sorcerers revenge, T. sent nearly 300% more demons than was agreed upon.

It was not known if the viciousness of S.R caused Q. to betray Tolk. or if they really ever intended too in the first place, but the idea was for Tolkeen demons to march ahead of the Q. forces and surprise CS, but Q. turned on them and laid into the demons with Their GB and vindicators. The commanders on the Qu. side, radioed CS and told them they were fighting a common enemie, CS joins the battle shortly after, monsters run home, but Q. force is devistated. A CS soldier takes a video, sends it to Prosek, he makes a speach about making a mistake fighting Qu. allows them to seceed, with his blessing and asks they stay a strong aliance of CS.

[RainOfSteel]

I can't say much about prosek forgiving or backing down from fighting free quebec

And yet, that is exactly what he did.

[RainOfSteel]

Read the SoT books, Tolkeen wasn't any better than CS at the end.

And why did Tolkeen become bad? Because the CS pushed them into a corner, poking big nasty MD weaponry directly into their mouths, yelling and screaming the whole time, "We're going to kill you! We're going to kill you! We're going to kill you!" Anyone might turn bad after living through that for many years.

Remember, Tolkeen eventually sold it's soul and started recruting demons.

See above.

At least CS, as evil as they may be, have never done such a thing. This is why magic is dangerous. /rant

Excuse me? Of course the CS has never done such a thing. They don't do magic.

Instead, Karl Prosek sanctions horrible crimes against his own race, and sentences all other races to death, even though the members of those other races that are being put to death may well have committed no crime whatsoever. This is one of the most heinous miscarriages of justice that is possible to conceive.

Humans have lived before "freedom" was a concept. For a majority of history, Humanity has always lived under the boot of some "ruler". The denial of education didn't make people living in the dark ages any less "human".

That's highly debateable.

For a long time in parts of Medieval Europe, villages were each person's entire world. There were an estimated 6-12 names used for everyone, and there were no surnames or family histories. The villages themselves did not have names, and if a person accidentally wandered too far away, the chances of every seeing the home village again began to go down, substantially. Time was, literally, an unknown Most people were unaware of changes in Popes, and changes in Kings might not filter around for years.

Eventually, this began to change. People began to figure out there was more to living than that. Gradually, new ideas formed.

They then fought and shed their blood and died to gain that thing called freedom.

Taking a person's freedom away is, in and of itself, a nasty horror; and the Prosek's have done this to the CS population without even feeling a tug at the heartstrings.

Just because they supress education does not mean nessissarily they hurt humanity as a whole.

I disagree most fundamentally. Education = Freedom. Freedom cannot exist without knowledge, and slavery is born of ignorance.

Check out George Orwell's 1984 for more on that theme.

CS citizens do show compasion, reason and wisdom.

But only in the manner proscribed by Karl Prosek.

Reason that magic corrupts. Need proof? Look at Siege on tolkeen...when Magic users are pushed into a corner, they will sell their souls to control demons.

Yes, when pushed into a corner.

The Prosek family (and its primary supporters) sold-out their souls to expediency while they were in a position of great strength.

How does that make the CS better than Tolkeen, or Tech better than Magic? Answer: It makes Tolkeen a victim of the evil of the CS. The CS literally transmitted its evil, via an unstoppable plague of memes, directly into Tolkeen. If the CS hadn't started it, it wouldn't have happened. And if the NG, MI, and Lazlo had gotten off their cowardly rear ends and helped Tolkeen, it also wouldn't have happened.

The NG and MI will bow to the CS, eventually, in one manner or another, as result of their actions. Lazlo will be destroyed a few years further down the road for the lapse they allowed in their morals and ethics.

Wisdom, You cannot be save with an enemie at your door step. Best to stop them NOW while you can than wait and hope they forget about you.

Ok, I agree with that. Tolkeen was not safe with such a source of pure evil like the CS at their doorstep, but a direct attack would likely have not worked.

(Yes, I know that you meant the reverse . . . except the CS made Tolkeen into an enemy, not the other way around.)

Just look at todays world. Our enemies is half way across the world, but look how easily we give up pieces of our freedom for security.

I didn't give up my freedom for security. Someone that I voted against gave up my freedom for their security. I didn't pick up any security at all in the loss of my freedoms.

Now imagine if they were only a few hundred miles away.

I live within 1 mile of the State Capital, I can see the dome if I walk out on the front porch. The scoundrels are very close, I assure you.

And could teleport twice per day up to 500 miles.

They can't teleport, but they're finding other ways to invade my privacy (via the recent efforts of Admiral Poindexter, "Mr. Treason" himself).

(Oops, I guess I'll stop with direct references like that.)

I can see a need to have a government that isn't bound by red-tape.

There is a difference between red-tape, and a dictatorship where you may be tortured or slain due to someone else's arbitrary decision, and quite possibly for their personal pleasure.

CS may be safe, but it's not safe enough to allow people to want to achieve "free thought".

That whole statement gives me chills just reading it.

Eventually, when CS is truely "Safe" the government will evolve and may very well evolve into a democracy like the one we see in Britan. But not now.

Except that the "evolution" will be external conquest or an internal coup. Once a government seizes power like that, the chances of it relinquishing that power are miniscule. Neither Karl nor Joseph would have any part of giving up their dynastic control, and you can be sure Joseph will raise his children that way, as well; and you can be further sure that any objections said children might have to being ideologically suitable will be crushed. Psychically, if necessary.

Remember, Dispite what you may feel, Proseks are not cowards.

Externally, by appearance, they are not. Internally, in the heart, they are. My definition of "courageous" doesn't include crushing everyone who says or does (or even thinks) anything I don't approve of.

They may not fight in the trenches, but neither do we place our president in a war front. You don't put leaders into battles.

Irrelevant, as that's standard operating procedure for most large governments.

And they take out enemies before their enemies get to the point where they actually can put up a fight. They are smart, and most of all dangrous.

That is, personally, one of my definitions of paranoia and cowardice. When fear is so overwhelming that you lash out at and destroy anyone who even might be an enemy . . . yes, that is the very height of cowardice. And if they aren't an enemy, why not scream for their deaths for a few years to ensure they become one?

It's also been stated that CS is as safe as it gets. It's even been stated that the residents of the burbs stay residents of the burbs, because it's safer than being out there.[...]

Eaten by monsters, or bent-over by my fellow man? It would be a tough choice for me, personally.

Sadly, I do not think fans and customers have anything to do with the process that decides what happens in the storyline.

I disagree. CS is a huge villain group. If you are in NA then you are afraid of the CS. *unless your a munchkin or insane/a Crazy* I know I would have been more peeved to lose CS than tolkeen. CS, being mentioned in so many books, CS having possibly the most detailed 'nation' there is just simply wiped from the game. Tolkeen was meant to be destroyed, it was only really harped on in the SoT books. Unfortunately HOW he did it not many liked.

And what does that have to do with whether or not fans have influence on the process that decides what gets done in the Rifts storyline?

Oh, and as regards, "CS is a huge villain group," I can't agree more.

The FQ thing showed me that Prosek is a true Genious. As opposed to continueing a war on two fronts he made peace.

If he'd been a genius, he wouldn't have started it in the first place.

He may be evil, but that doesn't mean he isn't compasionate about some things.

This is called "dissociation", of the more severe variety, and is generally accepted to be a bad thing.

[Toc Rat]

I would have thought this thread would have stayed buried but I guess it just keeps going and going.

I have argued in the past about the lack of morality in the CS leadership and it's goals. I've also commented on the SoT debacle.

Now just for those that might not know me or my position on the Coalition, I am niether Pro nor Anti CS. i appreciate them for what they are, as the primary Antaginists of North America, if not the entire Rifts Earth. As such they play an important role in the over all story arc. After all what good story doesn't involve a villian?

What I would like to see though is for KS to quit babying them! What am I talking about? Same thing that is on Cornholi's sig line. The Nazis that the CS were patterned off of were scary because they were good at their business of conquering and killing. They fought relentlessly, brilliantly and projected this aura of fear, death and unstopability.
Now lets look at the CS. They fight less then intelligently(even though the books say how "great" their generals are), fail to use every resource at their disposal(meaning magic) by relying strictly on technology. The Nazis used the Jews as their scape goats, the CS uses non-humans. Fine, so why kill ALL mages? The vanguard proves many 100% human mages are more then willing to be Anti-non humans. It's stupid and wasteful for the CS to ignore that aspect of human ability.
Now lets take a look at the opponents of the Coalition. Tolkeen was second only to Lazlo in sweet surgary goodness. Then BLAM they went to instant demon summoning army of darkness evil empire. Umm..What the @#$%? Not satisfied with just that bit of cheese, KS has to keep Lazlo, New Lazlo, King's Dale out of the war on Tolkeen's side. But wait there's more! He then decided that rather then take advantage of the CS fighting a two front war, the FoM sits on its hands...and the Splugorth...and the Pecos Empire...and Archie3...And the Naruni...see a pattern here? All would very much like to cause trouble to say the very least for the CS but yet they did nothing with their golden chance. Still not enough to make sure the CS wins the war, KS has an entire CS army pass thru Xiticix land...untouched!!! With the lame excuse of them not flying?! Sorry, Writer Bull @#$% flag on play. Want more examples? OK, how about all of a sudden mages cant cast magic in armor? Or spells that specificly say "Can't be used on Chi-town" Or how is that the CS manages to not be the target of vengeful mages with the ability to strike at them and not be caught? Plenty of ways for this to be done using strictly cannon rules have been listed on this forum.

All I am saying is that I understand the need for a villian in any story. However it would be nice if the villian in this case(The Coalition) wasn't being constantly propped up by the writter. Instead of inventing half-baked reasons or none at all why the CS hasn't gotten it's butt kicked, let's see some good writting. Have them actually do some intelligent things for once. No more divine GM intervention for them. If that were to happen they would become a whole lot more scary.

[RainOfSteel]

I would have thought this thread would have stayed buried but I guess it just keeps going and going.

Well, I posted to it while it was on page 1. I wouldn't have hesitated, though, if it were on page 59 if I felt I had something to say.

The above is a lot like Rolling Bear's Rules Rules Rules complaint.

I have argued in the past [...]

I agree with most points you have made, but have some things to add.

1) Karl Prosek personally hates magi and magic. So, therefore, does the CS. They aren't ignoring a resource, they are pursuing evil (because Karl says it's evil, and the CS and Karl are the same thing, as far as Karl is concerned).

2) I only somewhat agree about the CS's foolishness in many matters. Other such states have made similarly foolish decisions in the past, both Nazi Germany (failing to finish the British at Dunkirk, altering the air-plan over Britain, launching Barbarossa 6 weeks late, failing to support Rommel when it would have done some good, failing to release the panzer armies to Rommel on D-Day, failing to utilize the jet fighter properly, etc.), and Tojo Japan (failing to finish off Pearl Harbor, using submarines mostly as scouts instead of as commerce raiders, timidity and indecision at the Battle of Midway).

3) The failure of the CS's enemies to exploit their opportunities. Lazlo, who knows? The FoM, Dunscon is an evil little coward, almost as bad a Karl Prosek himself. He thinks in terms of "I want my competitors dead so they won't replace me, but I need my enemies to rally my supporters . . . at least until I control everything." Karl actually has achieved the position that Dunscon wishes he could have, total control of his society.

Dunscon and Karl are both badly in need of a taste of their own medicine. A full lifetime for both of them, spent in a body out of which they can tell no one of their situation (or have anyone discover by any means, like mind reading), in the worst of the worst situations both nations can dish out. For Karl, it would be hunger and fear in the burbs until he was shipped off to an interment camp for possessing some trace of magical talent, where he would be implanted with white-noise cyberware and left to go insane . . . only the real Karl inside would be unable to go insane, just forced to endure until death. For Dunscon, it would be a life without magic, forced conversion to a Juicer, and then conversion to a Juicer-Wraith under some necro's control, tossed away as cannon fodder.

Not that either would learn anything. That's what dissociative behavior and thought is all about, they'd find someone else to blame for the incidents, and never realize they'd been given a lesson. They're that insane.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

especially when KS uses the "CS is not actually very damaged by the War (save for the navy) because they used all the wannabe citizens from the burbs as their cannon fodder in Tolkein" route.

That is one of the most ridiculous loads of <censored> in the books.

The majority of the Burb-town population would, for the most part, not even sign up for military service. If anyone knows of CS oppression, lies, and corruption first-hand, it's the permanent Burb residents. The majority would not believe a word about CS lies in regards to Tolkeen.

If you can't tax them, you'll definitely have a tough time drafting them with anything other than press gangs (which would cause people to flee the burbs as quickly as they had arrived there).

more lies from the "truth telling people from lazlo , now go back to your dragon master and drink his kool-aid

The the second time you mentioned kool-aid. Hmm. You must be an expert in drinking it.

yup but i like the sugar free stuff, better taste
.

[dark brandon]

And why did Tolkeen become bad? Because the CS pushed them into a corner, poking big nasty MD weaponry directly into their mouths, yelling and screaming the whole time, "We're going to kill you! We're going to kill you! We're going to kill you!" Anyone might turn bad after living through that for many years.

Remember, Tolkeen eventually sold it's soul and started recruting demons.

See above.

Regardless, they still fell from grace. They are evil. The reasons does not matter as in the end, they were no better, no, infact WORSE than CS.

Excuse me? Of course the CS has never done such a thing. They don't do magic.

That's because magic is a devils tool.

Instead, Karl Prosek sanctions horrible crimes against his own race, and sentences all other races to death, even though the members of those other races that are being put to death may well have committed no crime whatsoever. This is one of the most heinous miscarriages of justice that is possible to conceive.

They may steal, kill and lie...they make commit heinious acts of injustice...but they have never will never, steal a soul. They may kill...but the lord said...death is a release...not a punishment.

That's highly debateable.

For a long time in parts of Medieval Europe, villages were each person's entire world. There were an estimated 6-12 names used for everyone, and there were no surnames or family histories. The villages themselves did not have names, and if a person accidentally wandered too far away, the chances of every seeing the home village again began to go down, substantially. Time was, literally, an unknown Most people were unaware of changes in Popes, and changes in Kings might not filter around for years.

True, but many had to deal with lords of lands and such. Make no mistake, people were oppressed a great deal in their life in the past. They may not have had to deal with the king directly, but they were not what you would call "Free" by todays standards, even in their own village. Surfs new well and good they were property.

They then fought and shed their blood and died to gain that thing called freedom.

Not everyone achived freedom in the end. Not everyone achieved freedom with blood either.

Taking a person's freedom away is, in and of itself, a nasty horror; and the Prosek's have done this to the CS population without even feeling a tug at the heartstrings.

They took nothing from them. The humans were nothing more than snacks to great demons from rifts until great men took up the mantal. There is nothing that says any one of those citizens have to stay there. If they don't like it, they can leave. In exchange for a safty of almost legendary status, you have to follow the rules, and those rules may/are a limit on what is concidered "freedom". The proseks have taken nothing that wasn't willingly given to them.

I disagree most fundamentally. Education = Freedom. Freedom cannot exist without knowledge, and slavery is born of ignorance.

I disagree Education =/ Freedom. A person can be well educated and still be under the boot of tyranical rule. Education may help you achieve freedom, but it is by no means a nessessity.

But only in the manner proscribed by Karl Prosek.

They show it none the less. (in responce to people showing compasion, wisdom...)

Yes, when pushed into a corner.

The Prosek family (and its primary supporters) sold-out their souls to expediency while they were in a position of great strength,

They never made any deal with any devil. One could argue "theologically"...but, unlike tolkeen who actually opened up rifts said 'here's my soul, allow me to control demons", they can be taken as either savoirs or sinners. Tolkeen on the other hand cannot be said the same.

How does that make the CS better than Tolkeen, or Tech better than Magic? Answer: It makes Tolkeen a victim of the evil of the CS. The CS literally transmitted its evil, via an unstoppable plague of memes, directly into Tolkeen. If the CS hadn't started it, it wouldn't have happened. And if the NG, MI, and Lazlo had gotten off their cowardly rear ends and helped Tolkeen, it also wouldn't have happened.

How is tolkeen's evil CS's fault? Didn't someone say not too many posts ago people are responcible for their own actions. You can blame CS all you want, but in the end, each person is responcible for himself, Right? So, if they fell from grace, they had no one to blame but themselves. In fact...CS and Tolkeen are very much alike.

The NG and MI will bow to the CS, eventually, in one manner or another, as result of their actions. Lazlo will be destroyed a few years further down the road for the lapse they allowed in their morals and ethics.

Lazlo will NOT be destoryed. They are too smart. They realize they can't face CS in war and probably won't try. More than likely, they will teleport their city away in some way.

Wisdom, You cannot be save with an enemie at your door step. Best to stop them NOW while you can than wait and hope they forget about you.

Ok, I agree with that. Tolkeen was not safe with such a source of pure evil like the CS at their doorstep, but a direct attack would likely have not worked.

(Yes, I know that you meant the reverse . . . except the CS made Tolkeen into an enemy, not the other way around.)

FoM made CS an enemie of ALL mages. They weren't quiet about it, they made it well known that they are an enemie of ALL mages. From the time CS was set up. Tolkeen knew what they were to expect, they had plenty of time to move away from the hornets nest.

I didn't give up my freedom for security. Someone that I voted against gave up my freedom for their security. I didn't pick up any security at all in the loss of my freedoms.

And here is where freedom leads you. People will/are willing to give up their and YOUR freedom for security. And in freedom, if that is what the majority wants, that is what you will get.

I live within 1 mile of the State Capital, I can see the dome if I walk out on the front porch. The scoundrels are very close, I assure you.

that's not the same thing as living say...in Iraq right now. You are much safer here than you would be in Iraq right now.

There is a difference between red-tape, and a dictatorship where you may be tortured or slain due to someone else's arbitrary decision, and quite possibly for their personal pleasure.

It has never been stated anywhere, or in any way shape or form that they do torture or slain for personal pleasure.

Except that the "evolution" will be external conquest or an internal coup. Once a government seizes power like that, the chances of it relinquishing that power are miniscule. Neither Karl nor Joseph would have any part of giving up their dynastic control, and you can be sure Joseph will raise his children that way, as well; and you can be further sure that any objections said children might have to being ideologically suitable will be crushed. Psychically, if necessary.

But I never said now. It will be long after karl and Joseph have gone the way of other great dead heros that society will demand a change. There will be turbulance, but, It will change. Just not any time soon.

Externally, by appearance, they are not. Internally, in the heart, they are. My definition of "courageous" doesn't include crushing everyone who says or does (or even thinks) anything I don't approve of.

I believe courageous is doing something that other people do not have the heart to do. You say crushing anyone who thinks differently. I see it as them doing what they have to do to keep their state and citizens safe. If someone disagrees, then it will cause problems, and in a time of war, that is not what you want, things should go as smoothly as possible, both inside the state and in the war front. Can't constantly be bothered by people who want a library when there are people dieing for their safty. No...there is a time and place, and this is not the time and place for anyone to "go against the flow".

That is, personally, one of my definitions of paranoia and cowardice. When fear is so overwhelming that you lash out at and destroy anyone who even might be an enemy . . . yes, that is the very height of cowardice. And if they aren't an enemy, why not scream for their deaths for a few years to ensure they become one?

But they were an enemie. even before the war.

Eaten by monsters, or bent-over by my fellow man? It would be a tough choice for me, personally.

You can still have a family, you can still love your child take them to the park, and hold them close at night without fear. On the other hand, being eaten leaves you only the ability to be digested.

And what does that have to do with whether or not fans have influence on the process that decides what gets done in the Rifts storyline?

Oh, and as regards, "CS is a huge villain group," I can't agree more.

Of course you can't agree more. That's the way they were set up. They are a huge resource, not only for villainy but heroics.

Fans do have an influance on the story line. Kevin DOES listen.

If he'd been a genius, he wouldn't have started it in the first place.

Even a genius can be wrong sometimes. Even a Genius can make mistakes. That doesn't make him any less of a genius, it just makes him human.

This is called "dissociation", of the more severe variety, and is generally accepted to be a bad thing.

In the case of leaders who have to make tough choices, this is to be expected.

[dark brandon]

I agree with most points you have made, but have some things to add.

1) Karl Prosek personally hates magi and magic. So, therefore, does the CS. They aren't ignoring a resource, they are pursuing evil (because Karl says it's evil, and the CS and Karl are the same thing, as far as Karl is concerned).

Agreed.

2) I only somewhat agree about the CS's foolishness in many matters. Other such states have made similarly foolish decisions in the past, both Nazi Germany (failing to finish the British at Dunkirk, altering the air-plan over Britain, launching Barbarossa 6 weeks late, failing to support Rommel when it would have done some good, failing to release the panzer armies to Rommel on D-Day, failing to utilize the jet fighter properly, etc.), and Tojo Japan (failing to finish off Pearl Harbor, using submarines mostly as scouts instead of as commerce raiders, timidity and indecision at the Battle of Midway).

I also believe that kevin is using too much "palladium" fighting (htH combat close range) than more modern military. Perhaps it's because it's what he's familiar with. Some people clamor "Higher someone who understands military tactics"...but that costs money, and palladium is still a small company. Some clamor "Read a book", and you know, I've tried, and for the most part, it's nearly impossible for me to read a book I can't get into. Not only that, it takes time to read a book and to understand it, both of which take time. People are expecting too many things from kevin. I do think he made a mistake, but I do cut him some slack. He's a fantasy RPG maker, not a historian, novelist or anything like that. What many people concider "Glaring examples of things that couldn't happen", I can say, up until someone pointed it out, I never had a problem with it. Sometimes you have to suspend your reality a little more than others because you may know more than others.

3) The failure of the CS's enemies to exploit their opportunities. Lazlo, who knows? The FoM, Dunscon is an evil little coward, almost as bad a Karl Prosek himself. He thinks in terms of "I want my competitors dead so they won't replace me, but I need my enemies to rally my supporters . . . at least until I control everything." Karl actually has achieved the position that Dunscon wishes he could have, total control of his society.

Just to note, lazlo stated that even with their help, they didn't have a chance to beat CS. If they did help, then CS would have turned their attention to them, and when Tolkeen was done being pounded, Lazlo would have been next. At least now they can buy some time to find a way to either move their city or perhaps hope for a miricle and make peace with CS.

Dunscon and Karl are both badly in need of a taste of their own medicine. A full lifetime for both of them, spent in a body out of which they can tell no one of their situation (or have anyone discover by any means, like mind reading), in the worst of the worst situations both nations can dish out. For Karl, it would be hunger and fear in the burbs until he was shipped off to an interment camp for possessing some trace of magical talent, where he would be implanted with white-noise cyberware and left to go insane . . . only the real Karl inside would be unable to go insane, just forced to endure until death. For Dunscon, it would be a life without magic, forced conversion to a Juicer, and then conversion to a Juicer-Wraith under some necro's control, tossed away as cannon fodder.

Not that either would learn anything. That's what dissociative behavior and thought is all about, they'd find someone else to blame for the incidents, and never realize they'd been given a lesson. They're that insane.

They are both insane, but strangely enough, in their list of "insanities" dissociative is not listed among them.

[Ishmael]

[/quote] I guess that the Question is supposed to be rhetorical...or funny....because it doesn't seem to make sense on the face of it otherwise (look up the DICTIONARY Definition of Bigotry, please; hating murderers, for example, doesn't make you a Bigot against Murderers.)....

[/quote]

Actually by the definition of Bigotry
1 : the state of mind of a bigot
2 : acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot

And the definition of a Bigot is

a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices


So by definition you would possible be one depending on how you read the previous posts.

[dark brandon]

One big problem with many peoples arguements supporting the CS is that they seem to think the CS is...

1. Safer than places like Lazlo, New Lazlo, Psyscape, etc
2. Humanities only hope

Both of which are wrong.

They arn't wrong.

1) It is safe in that you are not walking next to creatures who's hides are tougher than tanks. The only thing keeping it from eating you is that you have to hope it believes you are equal, especially when you know you arn't. Because humans are not equal to things such as dragons, hell even a grackletooth is beyond a human. At least your not unless you have psionic/magical or Technological abilities backing you up. But generally, the average farmer out in the field does not have access to any of these.

2) It is a great hope for humanity for a world where only humanity rules alone at the top again.

BTW, i'm not saying Lazlo isn't safe. I'm sure it is. But it's also a place that dabbles in magic, and has creatures that for some reason or another turn on humans, humans would have little chance to fight back. People fear sending their child to a school where other kids carry guns...can you really imagin sending a child to a school where other kids could rape his mind, kill him with a few words or just rend him limb from limb just because it has a temper tantrum?

[Nxla666]

It wa sthe Federation of Magic that gave birth to the evil now known as the CS.
Before the FoMs attack on Chi-town in 12 PA Chi-town had a small population of both D-bees and mages some of whom were influential in how things got done, although the government was predominately human.
Now as I understand things the first Dunscon began by bragging that magic wasnt just suprior to tech but that tech was evil and EVERYONE should stop using it and BOW to those who possessed magical talent as their master and savior, Chi-town refused so Dunscon rallied all the disparate elements of the Federation except for a few, Tolkeen and Lazlo being the ones that spring to mind right now, and attacked Chi-town without mercy murdering unarmed people with great enthusiasim due to the release of P.P.E. to recharge use energy used in killing them in the first place however what attacked Chi-town wasnt an army but a homoicidal mob.
Also as I understand it no small number of those same D-bees and mages that lived in Chi-town TURNED on their neighbors and helped the Fed slaughter more innocent people. What happened after that is well documented but could use a quick going over, in response to the unprovoked attack and the betrayl of those living there a few hate mongers managed to gain control of the military and then the government and wage a campaign of revenge disguised as securing the people.
Now nearly a century later the rest of the world has to pay for the sins of a few, Tolkeen who stood idly by and let it happen when they could have sided with Chi-town, keep in mind the formation of the Coaltion is in 33 PA, the same with Lazlo but both of those cities decided not to become involved with what they considered someone elses problem.
This in mind it was easy for the hate and fear mongers to turn what was once a relatively open society into a facist state dedicated to destroying all that is different or strange. People are willing to sacrifice a great many things in the name of personal safety, freedom being one of them.

The evil of the CS was born out of fear, hate, intolerance and an unwillingness to get involved.

Hate the CS all you want but remember its the very people you are siding with that made it possible.

[RainOfSteel]

Regardless, they still fell from grace. They are evil. The reasons does not matter as in the end, they were no better, no, infact WORSE than CS.

Tolkeen did fall from grace, but it isn't "regardless" in any sense of the word. The scope and number of crimes committed by the CS far exceeds those of Tolkeen's, and the CS can be held responsible for the transformation of Tolkeen from a peaceful society into one of evil.

I will remind you, that self-defence is fully justifiable, always, and a victim may use any reasonable force necessary to defend themselves. If an aggressor is far, far larger and tougher than their victim, a great many options that the victim might formerly never consider may suddenly look quite reareasonableIf an aggressor has a gun in their victim's mouth, and has their mouth jammed up against their victim's ear, and is screaming, over and over and over again, "I'm going to KILL you," a lack of cognizant reasoning upon the part of the victim is to be expected.

We would hope that the victim would make better choices, but we are not surprised when they do not. In any event, anything the victim does to defend themselves, including treating the aggressor as nastily as possible (until they stop attacking), is the aggressor's responsibility.

The CS is the aggressor entirely, and they became the aggressor solely out of their own imaginary and false assumptions.

Tolkeen was the victim, entirely wronged by the CS.

Excuse me? Of course the CS has never done such a thing. They don't do magic.

That's because magic is a devils tool.

That position is complete bunk.

PPE and Magic in Rifts are background forces of the universe, usable by anyone, for any purpose.

There is no Satan, Lucifer, or "The Devil" in Rifts.

Anything else is an assumption on your part for your personal milieu only.

AFAIC, taking people's freedom away form them is what is evil. Pure evil. The gunky sludge that is left over in the oil truck after a street has just been sprayed down. The bottom of a old multi-person outhouse that hasn't been cleaned out in thirty years. Mind-blowing, gut-wrenching evil of the highest order. It can get worse than this, but it's tough to make it there (abusing and killing children, among them . . . but oh, wait, the CS does those things, too).

They may steal, kill and lie...they make commit heinious acts of injustice...but they have never will never, steal a soul.

What?! Taking away a person's freedom will destroy their soul. People have shed blood and died for this concept!

They may kill...but the lord said...death is a release...not a punishment.

You are pulling in a belief system from completely and totally outside the game into this.

The mods will shut the topic down if we go into it.

True, but many had to deal with lords of lands and such. Make no mistake, people were oppressed a great deal in their life in the past. They may not have had to deal with the king directly, but they were not what you would call "Free" by todays standards, even in their own village. Surfs new well and good they were property.

Which is why people rebelled against their lords, emigrated to new lands when possible, and otherwise fought and died in order to gain freedom.

They then fought and shed their blood and died to gain that thing called freedom.

Not everyone achieved freedom in the end. Not everyone achieved freedom with blood either.

But the point is, people who know what freedom is frequently value it highly enough to risk death in order to gain or retain it.

Taking a person's freedom away is, in and of itself, a nasty horror; and the Prosek's have done this to the CS population without even feeling a tug at the heartstrings.

They took nothing from them. The humans were nothing more than snacks to great demons from rifts until great men took up the mantal. There is nothing that says any one of those citizens have to stay there. If they don't like it, they can leave.

Just because a person is in an environment that threatens constant and terrible death, does not mean they do not possess their freedom.

If a person wins through all this, and shows up on the CS's doorstep, and the CS says, you will accept A, B, and C, and perform X, Y, and Z, including suffering the loss of your freedom, your right to free speech, your right to free assembly and/or association, and just about anything else I'd care to name, this is hardly the CS not "taking" anything away.

And what about the people who were there all along? They had their freedom taken away, most certainly. Without the education to realize it was happening, they may well have given it up without a fight, reduced to the status of the serfs of ages past . . . the property of the CS, at least as far as Karl Prosek is concerned.

It is true that each person arriving faces a choice. Be eaten, enslaved, etc., or lose everything that makes living worthwhile (to people who know what they have). And given the poor state of education of those outside the CS, it's unlikely many will know of what they are missing . . . and there is where Education = Freedom . . . and many will choose to accept the strictures of the CS without question. But just because their ignorance prevents them from knowing these things were taken from them, doesn't mean that these things weren't taken. If you keep something from someone that is within your power to give, and that you should, morally and ethically and humanely give, then you are effectively taking it away.

And let's face it, human beings are always more than snack food for demons, even right before they're eaten. That is why such deaths are tragic, because they were human.

I have my doubts about whether CS citizens are free to leave. If they all really knew what was going on, what Karl was really doing, and got real news instead of regurgitated slop, there would be a mass exodus (East Germany and Russia pre-wall). Karl would stop any such movement from occurring, if any such movement ever began. No, they are not free to leave.

In exchange for a safty of almost legendary status, you have to follow the rules, and those rules may/are a limit on what is concidered "freedom". The proseks have taken nothing that wasn't willingly given to them.

"Safety of legendary status?" I already went over this. There is no real safety in the CS. They are safe from most demons, only to face the dangers of being in a land where John Q. Somebody who is further up the food chain than you can end your life if they take a simple dislike to you, and it's legal and government-supported (instead of a crime and police-pursued). Oh, and let's not forget, getting sacrificed to a war begun on false pretenses.

I disagree most fundamentally. Education = Freedom. Freedom cannot exist without knowledge, and slavery is born of ignorance.

I disagree Education =/ Freedom. A person can be well educated and still be under the boot of tyranical rule. Education may help you achieve freedom, but it is by no means a nessessity.

Education may not be an technical necessity to gaining freedom, but I feel it is a pactical necessity. For without education, will anyone even try to gain their freedom? Will anyone who gains it even even know they have it? Will they be able to stop others from dupping them out of it? The answer to the last three questions is no.

But only in the manner proscribed by Karl Prosek.

They show it none the less. (in responce to people showing compasion, wisdom...)

Faking is as faking does.

And let's face it again, Tolkeen was not a land of "evil", until the CS dipped their hand into the situation. So the above assertion is not correct.

Yes, when pushed into a corner.

The Prosek family (and its primary supporters) sold-out their souls to expediency while they were in a position of great strength,

They never made any deal with any devil.

The Proseks most certainly sold their souls to a devil, yes they did. Multiple devils, in fact. The devils of vengeance, expediency, self-delusion, control-freakism, aggrandizement, greed, and probably others I can't think of off hand.

One could argue "theologically"...but, unlike tolkeen who actually opened up rifts said 'here's my soul, allow me to control demons",

Um, that wasn't the deal with the Daemonix, so you can't be talking about them.

Only one of the Circle of twelve has such a deal made (even if one is a supernatural intelligence itself), and it doesn't seem to be with any devil.

Are you referring to Shifters in general? That's hardly all of Tolkeen.

Not too many others. I can't recall any direct references. Can you please provide some cites to jog my brain?

I'd say the real slip in Tolkeen's "grace" was that they reduced themselves to the CS's level in detention camp tactics and battlefield cruelty.

they can be taken as either savoirs or sinners. Tolkeen on the other hand cannot be said the same.

No, the CS cannot be taken as a savior under any circumstances. It's like a hive-mind with Karl Prosek at the head. It might as well by a vampire intelligence and minions.

As for Tolkeen, they were only trying to save themselves in the face of gun stuck in their mouths with a maniac screaming death in their ear.

How does that make the CS better than Tolkeen, or Tech better than Magic? Answer: It makes Tolkeen a victim of the evil of the CS. The CS literally transmitted its evil, via an unstoppable plague of memes, directly into Tolkeen. If the CS hadn't started it, it wouldn't have happened. And if the NG, MI, and Lazlo had gotten off their cowardly rear ends and helped Tolkeen, it also wouldn't have happened.

How is tolkeen's evil CS's fault?

Because the CS started it all. Duh.

Didn't someone say not too many posts ago people are responcible for their own actions.

Yes, they are responsible for them. As I outlined above, self-defense in the face of attempted murder is a legally recognized mitigating circumstance.

You can blame CS all you want, but in the end, each person is responcible for himself, Right? So, if they fell from grace, they had no one to blame but themselves. In fact...CS and Tolkeen are very much alike.

Already discussed.

Lazlo will NOT be destoryed. They are too smart. They realize they can't face CS in war and probably won't try. More than likely, they will teleport their city away in some way.

That's a pretty cool idea.

That Plato would withhold such an avenue from Tolkeen is an indictment upon him.

But I doubt that Lazlo possesses the might to teleport the whole city away.

FoM made CS an enemie of ALL mages.

Yes, they did. AFAIC, the CS has a legitimate beef with the FoM, especially because the FoM has made no attempt to change its ways, and is led by Dunscon, who is only a hairsbreadth less evil than Karl Prosek, and the FoM itself is only a hairsbreadth less evil than the CS.

Let them destroy each other. Two true evils going down in a blaze of ignominy.

Given what was in SoT1-6, and in FoM, I can't see how the FoM comes anywhere near the might of Tolkeen. Only the extra-dimensional location of the City of Brass gives them any real advantage, one that would cease if its physical connection to this world were bombed out of existence. The CS should be mopping the floor with the FoM (since by the canon storyline, they only lost a bunch of burb-towners to the Tolkeen conflict [what a joke]).

They weren't quiet about it, they made it well known that they are an enemie of ALL mages.

Are you stating that this excuses the CS?

"Sorry, I warned everyone on my block that I would be spreading Agent Orange all over everyone's yards and houses for months. You can't possibly be complaining now that I've done it."

That position, simply speaking, is unsupportable.

If you don't believe that position is unsupportable, please imagine what happen in you personally performed the above example in real life, and then imagine what would happen after (and no sidelines about modern-day vs. Rifts-day, because we're not arguing expediency and situations, we're arguing moral principles).

From the time CS was set up. Tolkeen knew what they were to expect, they had plenty of time to move away from the hornets nest.

I was right, you are supporting an unsupportable position.

The above two paragraphs are effectively null.

It's like saying the Jews knew what was coming from the moment Hitler got into power, so their deaths were all their fault. It's quite simply ridiculous.

I didn't give up my freedom for security. Someone that I voted against gave up my freedom for their security. I didn't pick up any security at all in the loss of my freedoms.

And here is where freedom leads you. People will/are willing to give up their and YOUR freedom for security. And in freedom, if that is what the majority wants, that is what you will get.

Wrong. The US Supreme Court has ruled that some rights are so fundamental that they cannot be "voted" away, no matter how many wish to do so. Apparently, even the Supreme Court can have a good day and recognize a universal truth that goes beyond mere paper or popular opinion, and enact that universal truth into mere law.

It has never been stated anywhere, or in any way shape or form that they do torture or slain for personal pleasure.

Wrong. WB13:Lonestar, p. 104. Desmond Bradford performs all manner genetic mutational experimentation on living humans, destroying and incinerating the failures. The public decree for such activities is death, of course. Must have a good public face. But I don't believe for a second that CS Intelligence doesn't know what's going on, and therefore Karl Prosek knows. Given that the "humans" used are undesirables, I have no doubt that Karl also sheds not a tear . . . unless it might come to public light, in which case he'll be surprised and take swift action.

Karl and Joseph Prosek have given the orders, personally, that led to the slayings of women, children, and infants; and their troops tortured them while doing it, and nothing was done to stop those troops.

In any event, they have the power to do it. Historically speaking, when certain people have unlimited power, they realize it, and use it. (As shown by Karl Prosek, Joseph Prosek, and Desmond Bradford.)

This is the whole reason we have a system (steadily being dismantled) that distrusts government, to keep this sort of thing from happening.

And I would also like to say that nowhere in Tolkeen does it say they've all sold their souls to devils, either.

But they were an enemie. even before the war.

Tolkeen and the CS? What was the cause of that? Is there some reference somewhere that I missed (and there often is) that says that Tolkeen helped out the FoM in their big attempt to conquer the early CS?

In the case of leaders who have to make tough choices, this is to be expected.

Only in the ones with minds that have shattered under the strain.

This is another reason for term limits.

[Blight]

I'm not an eloquent speaker, But arguing about rights these people have no idea of is moot There are no unalienable rights you are talking liberties and you buy these normally at the cost usually of lives. All so called human rights cost. They have to be wanted enough to pay the price for. Now lets look at a typical CS citizen. Do they feel safe? Yes. Dose he have the opportunity to support him self and family? yes. If he works hard can he better his and his families life? Yes. Is he given something to believe in. (False or not). Yes. These are basic things people want, this is why people flock to the CS. "Freedoms" like freedom of speech, freedom of religion,and even freedom of education are most likely not even missed. During the 1800 through the great depression education through out the us was at a very low level. But if a person had said things listed above was he happy. Yes. Is the CS government evil? From our opinion, yes,but to the average joe or sue in rifts earth. It's paradise. Dose the CS protect it citizenry from the horrors of rifts earth? for the most part Yes. And people will give up a lot to feel safe. What would you do to protect your children? What would you give up?

[Nxla666]

Rainofsteel read my post just before yours, all that info is taken from various books. And then repeat that part about it being ALL ths CSs fault.

[RainOfSteel]

Rainofsteel read my post just before yours, all that info is taken from various books. And then repeat that part about it being ALL ths CSs fault.

If the CS had attacked the FoM, I would have less to say (although not nothing, the CS is still pure evil, as pure as the freshly yellowed snow).

But your post indicates that Tolkeen refrained from the early FoM invasion of the CS. Yet the CS still went after them . . . almost a century later! For what? For not invading them? Bad CS, bad, bad, bad!

Maybe Tolkeen should have invaded the CS early on, and then the CS in PA 106 would have attacked the Pecos Empire (who also had nothing to do with the FoM invasion).


I would excuse many things the early CS would have done to defend itself (but not everything) during the FoM invasion, until the FoM stopped attacking or the CS beat them (and it beat them).

If the CS had gone after the FoM immediately after the invasion, or mustered their strength and went after them a few years later, it would have had a substantial air of justification. But that is not what happened.

The FoM invasion was used as an opportunity to excercise a thirst for power, and a Prosek was there, on the stair-climber to @@@@, working every angle, and the Proseks went after people that had nothing to do with the invasion. Both those internally, and externally.

Indescriminate butchery to achieve power. I'd say it was the mindless actions of a rabid dog, and with all the lack of morals, but there was far too much calculation there, and it had nothing to do with righteousness or saving humanity, and everything to do with egomania.

[RainOfSteel]

There are no unalienable rights

Well, that flushes the last 200+ years of human rights advancement down the proverbial toilet, right along with the Declaration of Independence.

[RainOfSteel]

Again... You wouldnt let your kids play with sewer rats... you wouldnt just let a bunch of cockroaches infest YOUR house. In the end a MAN protects his OWN. The CS wont kill the D-Bees if they would just "go away" on their own, but like ants they dont. They infest and infect the land, turning innocent men away from their one duty "protecting his family" with magics and other wierd strange dangerous things. If you got racoons in the attic you chase them out or call the exterminator cause sooner or later they get in and bite your children...

Coalition not because they want to, becasue they have to...

Barney

And that flushes the last 150+ years of glacially improving race relations down the proverbial toilet, right after human rights and the Declaration of Independence.

[Blight]

There are no unalienable rights

Well, that flushes the last 200+ years of human rights advancement down the proverbial toilet, right along with the Declaration of Independence.

I just said they are liberties not rights the word rights implies there yours no matter what, there not you have to pay for them, "the tree of liberty must regularly be watered with the blood of patriots or it always dies." In our pride we forget this. We are standing on the shoulders of giants. And we have been there so long we often forget the cost they paid From our four fathers to martin luther king. Every man or woman who died for a belief paid for it. So ya there are no unalienable rights.

[Nxla666]

Do you not know that the Coalition did NOT exsist at the time of the FoMs invasion?
The CS came into being because of the invasion, and Chi-town did respond immediatly after, that is the famous "Bloody Campaign" led by then Col. Joesph Prosek (Karls dad and Joe the 2nds grampa).
It was Joe the 1st's great success in that that caused the Proseks to become the political body they are before that they were considered a bunch of small minded bigots, BUT then the FoMs invasion was used as proof that the Proseks (and their allies) were right.
As for Tolkeen in the minds of the general CS population and many of the officials Tolkeen is no better than the FoM, something Tolkeen could have done something about long before the Proseks became the leaders of the nation. And apply to Lazlo as well.

Also note that in the FoM book the CS is waging a constant campaign against what they figure are the last remnants of it.

[Nxla666]

Sorry it was directed towards Rainofsteel.

[RainOfSteel]

Sorry it was directed towards Rainofsteel.

It's a hit!

[dark brandon]

That position is complete bunk.

I dunno. The soT showed that a nation of magic will turn to devils and demons if they are pushed into a corner. Not angels and um...whatever else equates to angels.

PPE and Magic in Rifts are background forces of the universe, usable by anyone, for any purpose.

I don't know what PPE is for. They are natural forces of the universe, but that does not mean that they are suppost to be used by anything other than the universe.

There is no Satan, Lucifer, or "The Devil" in Rifts.

There are devils and there is a satan in Palladium worlds, which can be argued is also part of rifts.

What?! Taking away a person's freedom will destroy their soul. People have shed blood and died for this concept!

People die and shed blood for lots of things, some more "logical" than others. Just because people die for it does not make it right. Taking a persons freedom away may break the spirit, but it does not take it.

You are pulling in a belief system from completely and totally outside the game into this.

The mods will shut the topic down if we go into it.

Not totally religious, I was mearly making a point that killing isn't half as bad as say Nxla...who steals souls, or Dunscon who has that jar that takes souls or the soul twist spell.

Which is why people rebelled against their lords, emigrated to new lands when possible, and otherwise fought and died in order to gain freedom.

You also had people who fought and died to keep people as surfs, who hounded those that left down and pulled them back or killed them.

It is true that each person arriving faces a choice. Be eaten, enslaved, etc., or lose everything that makes living worthwhile (to people who know what they have). And given the poor state of education of those outside the CS, it's unlikely many will know of what they are missing . . . and there is where Education = Freedom . . . and many will choose to accept the strictures of the CS without question. But just because their ignorance prevents them from knowing these things were taken from them, doesn't mean that these things weren't taken. If you keep something from someone that is within your power to give, and that you should, morally and ethically and humanely give, then you are effectively taking it away.

It's a beautiful thought. Really a wonderful Ideology. But I'd be willing to bet more often than not, those who do know would still willingly give it up to protect their families. At least inside the CS you stand a better chance of changing things than outside in the wilderness.

I have my doubts about whether CS citizens are free to leave.

Nothing in the writings suggests this. In fact, the writings state quite the opposite, that many can go as they please, but will not set foot outside their fortifide city. No...you are free to leave, at your own risk.

"Safety of legendary status?" I already went over this. There is no real safety in the CS.

Doesn't matter if it's real or not. It's what they believe and how they feel.

They are safe from most demons, only to face the dangers of being in a land where John Q. Somebody who is further up the food chain than you can end your life if they take a simple dislike to you, and it's legal and government-supported (instead of a crime and police-pursued). Oh, and let's not forget, getting sacrificed to a war begun on false pretenses.

And yet people will let that happen, and people will gladly smile on their way to hell. Give them a reason, and they will fight for whatever you can pull out your Rear.

Education may not be an technical necessity to gaining freedom, but I feel it is a pactical necessity. For without education, will anyone even try to gain their freedom? Will anyone who gains it even even know they have it? Will they be able to stop others from dupping them out of it? The answer to the last three questions is no.

A person knows when he's being held back, you don't need education on that. and even WITH an education you can still dupe people out of their freedoms.

And let's face it again, Tolkeen was not a land of "evil", until the CS dipped their hand into the situation. So the above assertion is not correct.

And let's face it, CS wasn't the nation of "evil" until savagly attacked by FoM. So what? Doesn't make CS any less evil.

The Proseks most certainly sold their souls to a devil, yes they did. Multiple devils, in fact. The devils of vengeance, expediency, self-delusion, control-freakism, aggrandizement, greed, and probably others I can't think of off hand.

Disagree. They may be sinful, but they are not actual devils/demons. Nothing in rifts/palladums megaverse suggest that such things are the products of deals with demons. You can theologically say yes...but there is no contract, there is no deal. I can show you where mages have sold their souls to demons to control them.

Um, that wasn't the deal with the Daemonix, so you can't be talking about them.

Only one of the Circle of twelve has such a deal made (even if one is a supernatural intelligence itself), and it doesn't seem to be with any devil.

Are you referring to Shifters in general? That's hardly all of Tolkeen.

Not too many others. I can't recall any direct references. Can you please provide some cites to jog my brain?

Sure. SoT. There are many examples of tolkeen mages using demons. Off hand I can think of the attack of Quebec as an example. 6000 demons was it?

No, the CS cannot be taken as a savior under any circumstances. It's like a hive-mind with Karl Prosek at the head. It might as well by a vampire intelligence and minions.

Karl may take away a persons freedom, but in no way does he take away their souls, which is what a VI does. Well, not take away, I guess it more like "binds" them. When you decide "oh, I don't want to be a vampire anymore" you don't just stop being a vampire. You can on the other hand say "I'm done with CS." and then leave CS. As long as you arnt overly loud about it, they may not care.

As for Tolkeen, they were only trying to save themselves in the face of gun stuck in their mouths with a maniac screaming death in their ear.

Tolkeen knew going down the alley at night would be a bad idea. Lazlo was like "hey, come with us, we'll help you out, don't bother going down that alley and facing the gun wielding maniac". Tolkeen was too prideful, and thus paid with it's life. Lazlo offered to help Tolkeen before the war with a mass exodus, and they did not take it.

Because the CS started it all. Duh.

FoM started it all. CS is just gonna finish it all.

Yes, they are responsible for them. As I outlined above, self-defense in the face of attempted murder is a legally recognized mitigating circumstance.

disagree.

That's a pretty cool idea.

That Plato would withhold such an avenue from Tolkeen is an indictment upon him.

He didn't. He may not have had the knowledge to get the whole city itself, but it did have ways to get the people out. I think it was one of the first books that mention that Lazlo was willing and people choose to stay.

But I doubt that Lazlo possesses the might to teleport the whole city away.

Don't know. They may just leave the city and just move the people. After all, the city itself is not what's important. It's the ideal. Tolkeen was bound to die because CS has beaten it from the start. CS had killed the idea that was tolkeen. A place of peace and learning. To be CS, you have to beat the Ideal of the CS. Which, I don't see happening. People are afraid and they will be kept afraid. It's a vicious loop, that as long as magic/mages exist, so will the CS ideals.

Yes, they did. AFAIC, the CS has a legitimate beef with the FoM, especially because the FoM has made no attempt to change its ways, and is led by Dunscon, who is only a hairsbreadth less evil than Karl Prosek, and the FoM itself is only a hairsbreadth less evil than the CS.

They are far more evil than CS. If in only that CS citizens are generally innocent. FoM on the other hand is not so.

(since by the canon storyline, they only lost a bunch of burb-towners to the Tolkeen conflict [what a joke]).

They lost more than that. The MAJORITY of deaths may have been burb-scum, but they lost citizens as well.

Are you stating that this excuses the CS?

"Sorry, I warned everyone on my block that I would be spreading Agent Orange all over everyone's yards and houses for months. You can't possibly be complaining now that I've done it."

That position, simply speaking, is unsupportable.

If you don't believe that position is unsupportable, please imagine what happen in you personally performed the above example in real life, and then imagine what would happen after (and no sidelines about modern-day vs. Rifts-day, because we're not arguing expediency and situations, we're arguing moral principles).

I'll argue that the signs that they would are there that it would happen. Morally it would be wrong. But logically...if the signs are there...

"Well, we knew he was crazy, what with all the guns he has, the hanging corpes on his door step and him dancing naked during the day in the middle of the street...but we never actually thought he would spread agent orange on our lawns..."

So, who's to blame? Well, definatly the crazed mad man...and then of course everyone who was infected by the agent orange. It would be every comedians dream joke to show the "Density" of humans.

Wrong. The US Supreme Court has ruled that some rights are so fundamental that they cannot be "voted" away, no matter how many wish to do so. Apparently, even the Supreme Court can have a good day and recognize a universal truth that goes beyond mere paper or popular opinion, and enact that universal truth into mere law.

Slowly but surely they can be taken away. Not in all one swift move...but like a catapillar eating away at a leaf...bit by bit...and that is what we are seeing today. Oh, SC voted this way...well...now that one is retiring lets find one that is able...and "Morally capable".

Wrong. WB13:Lonestar, p. 104. Desmond Bradford performs all manner genetic mutational experimentation on living humans, destroying and incinerating the failures. The public decree for such activities is death, of course. Must have a good public face.

True dat. But, I don't think he does it for "pleasure". well, at least not for the sake of torcher. He experiments for the Pleasure of science.

But I don't believe for a second that CS Intelligence doesn't know what's going on, and therefore Karl Prosek knows.

Reading lonestar, I believe that CS Intell and karl have no idea what bradford is generally doing.

And I would also like to say that nowhere in Tolkeen does it say they've all sold their souls to devils, either.

Not all of tolkeen. But tolkeen itself lost it's soul (No more a nation of peace and learning, naw, they use demons now.) For example, Shadow dragons.

[RainOfSteel]

Do you not know that the Coalition did NOT exsist at the time of the FoMs invasion?

CS and Chi-Town may sometimes be used interchangeably, but I'm sure you knew that I was talking about in that context.

It was Joe the 1st's great success

"Butchery not make one great!" ~ Paraphrasing Yoda

(And I'm not talking about the defense against the FoM, I'm talking about what happened internally, afterward; and much else after, elsewhere, as well.)

[...] BUT then the FoMs invasion was used as proof that the Proseks (and their allies) were right.

It was used by the Proseks to prove themselves right, retroactively.

As for Tolkeen in the minds of the general CS population and many of the officials Tolkeen is no better than the FoM, something Tolkeen could have done something about long before the Proseks became the leaders of the nation. And apply to Lazlo as well.

And thus we find a fundamental flaw in CS thinking. An inability to successfully identify the true enemy.

An inability forged and maintained by the draconian mindset created and enforced by the Proseks.

Also note that in the FoM book the CS is waging a constant campaign against what they figure are the last remnants of it.

More inability by the CS to successfully identify their true enemy.

Incompetent on one hand, invincible on the other. I want to know what magic gauntlets Karl Prosek is wearing, because he's violating his own principles of avoiding the supernatural.

[dark brandon]

There are no unalienable rights

Well, that flushes the last 200+ years of human rights advancement down the proverbial toilet, right along with the Declaration of Independence.

Well, he is correct.

It doesn't flush it down the toilet as you so elequently put it.

It's the rights that every human "should" have. We should all have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Unfortunatly, that's not how it really is. At least not in a good portion of the world, such as in africa or middle east.

It's a sad state, and a wonderful idea. Maybe one day it will come true. But those rights are alienated.

[dark brandon]

And that flushes the last 150+ years of glacially improving race relations down the proverbial toilet, right after human rights and the Declaration of Independence.

Dbees do not = Humans.

I can scientifically prove humans are humans.

I can also prove that not all dbees are humans and that they are not equal.

[dark brandon]

Uh Dbees arnt vermin. They have families too. Alot of times its not their fault for being on Rifts. They are lost on an alien world not of thier choosing, where are they gonna go? Not all dbees are magical. Dbees just mean Dimensional Being, who by the way can be human and the Coalition would label "dbee" on anyone that even isn't from another dimension, but was born of Rifts Earth. Put yourself in the place of a dbee who was rifted and can't get back, then is attacked scensesly by aliens who are insane with fear. You can't but feel sorry for them. You wouldn't be so bold as to call them roaches if you where on the other side.

Good point. Many Dbees did not willingly come to rifts earth.

[Blight]

[quote="RainOfSteel]
And that flushes the last 150+ years of glacially improving race relations down the proverbial toilet, right after human rights and the Declaration of Independence.[/quote]
Thats it on the button.

[grandmaster z0b]

Again... You wouldnt let your kids play with sewer rats... you wouldnt just let a bunch of cockroaches infest YOUR house. In the end a MAN protects his OWN. The CS wont kill the D-Bees if they would just "go away" on their own, but like ants they dont. They infest and infect the land, turning innocent men away from their one duty "protecting his family" with magics and other wierd strange dangerous things. If you got racoons in the attic you chase them out or call the exterminator cause sooner or later they get in and bite your children...

Coalition not because they want to, becasue they have to...

Barney

Uh Dbees arnt vermin. They have families too. Alot of times its not their fault for being on Rifts. They are lost on an alien world not of thier choosing, where are they gonna go? Not all dbees are magical. Dbees just mean Dimensional Being, who by the way can be human and the Coalition would label "dbee" on anyone that even isn't from another dimension, but was born of Rifts Earth. Put yourself in the place of a dbee who was rifted and can't get back, then is attacked scensesly by aliens who are insane with fear. You can't but feel sorry for them. You wouldn't be so bold as to call them roaches if you where on the other side.

See this is the trap that so many D-bee lovers fall into. This idea that somehow D-bees are just as human as you and I and matter just as much. Where did anyone get this? Before the Rifts this wasnt true, we didnt consider a cow or a dog on the same level as a human. Indeed if given the choise between saving a puppy or a human baby the human baby was the correct choise, EVERYTIME without fail. But now just because a few of these so called sentient D-bees can cry or talk or build a home the D-bee lover automatically classifies them as equal to humanity. There in lies the flaw, because you see since the begining of time it has been about humanity. Sure we battled and fought but it STILL came down to humanity. Humanity was what was worth saving THEN and it's what's worth preserving now.

Again like I said it's not something the CS WANTS to do... No one likes to go out and slaughter baby rats, to crush their weak little crying forms under their boot. But if you dont, your going to have Rats in your house. If you dont the rats will eventually hurt YOU and your family... When we choose, we should choose Humanity....

The Coalition, a dirty job for the people of today to provide a bright future for the people of tomorrow...

Barney

Whoa, I hope your joking because that's an odd way to debate your point "No one likes to go out and slaughter baby rats, to crush their weak little crying forms under their boot" is that the equivalent of slaughtering baby humans from another dimension? That use of language is slightly disturbing.

Also you cannot compare dogs and cows to intelligent life forms, nor can you question the "sentience" of d-bees as some are simply humans from another dimension and anything considered a d-bee is intelligent. Otherwise it would be classified an animal, a monster or a demon.

This kind reasoning, comparing intelligent races to animals is the same logic used to justify slavery and how the nazis justified genocide.
It clearly states many times that an elf, a dwarf, an ogre or a human from another dimension is intelligent, has feelings, and clearly comprehends it's own existance which is the definition of sentience.

It would be much easier to justify the CS if they only attacked those that threatened them, I agree that is their right to defend themselves. However when it was humanities' stupidity that brought about the rifts in the first place and it was not an "invasion" as most CS supporters seem to think. Many d-bees are brought here by accident and you cannot blame them for arriving here.

There is absolutely no chance of wiping out the presence of d-bees from the earth unless you understand the principles of magic and can somehow burn up the excess PPE and shut down the rifts. Killing more and more innocents will not do anything except create more PPE and open more rifts.

The real stupidity of the CS is that they refuse to try and use magic in any way yet they will study it in the vain hope of somehow controlling it without using it. It's like trying to understand physics or chemistry through observation without experimentation.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yup 150+ yrs of peace and understanding went right after the wondow once the first demon and friends showed up for lunch and little booby and suzie were lunch. or maybe it was the first 20 yrs of of people trying to hold on to thier lives from one day to the next. Funny how some people will blast the coalition for anything but let a coaltion soldier do something that takes courage(freeing everybody for one of the death camps vs. following orders and killing them all) they seem to not even notice that.

maybe most didnt see where KS was going with the seige of tolkeen series, besides the pissing and moaning about tolkeen falling into coalition control.

1. the CS high command knows how bad they are hurt, yes SOT and the war with FQ hurt the coalition bad
2. a number of d-bees given thier lives to safe Coalition soldiers from demons and beings like them
3. a number of coalition soldiers started to wondering are they so different from the d-bees, the illusion of every d-bee is a monster goes away once you see the fear in another beings eyes, and find out he is just doing what a coalition soldier with a family would do, trying to protect his family in a world gone to hell.
Proseks and his high command are human trash, who would crush everyone who stands in the way, wether they be humans or d-bees
(rant) i think the biggest problem is people trying to think today's values are going to be the same in 300-400 yrs from now, less then 200 yrs ago you could still own slaves and beat them to death for anything under the sun and no one would think of you as a criminal, today we can watch planes smash into building over and over on regular TV but have a woman show her **** and everybody gets all high and mightly with crap about kids are watching TV , well Kids were watching TV on 9/11 and watch planes crash into building and watch buildings fall with people still inside of them!, well thats that rant(end of rant)
moral and values change over constantly over years and centuries

[Jimmy Crat]

I have my doubts about whether CS citizens are free to leave. If they all really knew what was going on, what Karl was really doing, and got real news instead of regurgitated slop, there would be a mass exodus (East Germany and Russia pre-wall). Karl would stop any such movement from occurring, if any such movement ever began. No, they are not free to leave.

I disagree. I think it would be a scandal, no doubt. It would shake up the CS citizens, but they would not leave their lives, families, and friends "en masse" just as some kind of political statement. It would likely be just the kind of wake up call the people of the CS need to start to make changes in the system. Whether or not it is possible at the time would depend entirely on how much of the military feels betrayed by the CS. With the level of technology being at the level it is, a riot would just get people killed. I'm not necessarily talking about an all out coup, I mean that the soldiers might not open fire on them while they voice opinions. Until that stage of events is set, I can't see the population leaving everything they've ever known to make a statement.

They are far more evil than CS. If in only that CS citizens are generally innocent. FoM on the other hand is not so.

I also disagree here. While the "ruling class" in the FoM is primarily evil, the "citizens" are not necessarily any more evilly inclined than the average CS citizen. The great majority of people in the FoM are basically serfs to their FoM lords. They have no control of their own fate; save to live or die; sometimes not even that. The evil in the government of the FoM may be more visible to the common man, but it isn't necessarily more infectious.