Ninja, Bushido, and Made-Up "History"

glitterboy2098 · Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:15 am

unless you provide sources to support your denial, i'm afraid this thread will go nowhere.

and don't double post. used the edit button.

glitterboy2098 · Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:09 pm

i yeild.

do you desire my life for my ignorance?

:begins to wrap wakazashi in rice paper. leaving only 3 inches at the tip exposed:

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:49 pm

Man, I was walking home yesterday, and wouldnt you know it...

Ninjas!

They ambushed me with facts about their history, and explained that the stereotypes we have about them are based on misconceptions, and should be abolished.

Luckily, I had my sword this time, and slew them all in a bloody, glorious battle.

glitterboy2098 · Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:51 pm

i knew some of what i had read (and the condensed version i had posted) was wrong, but it was the best i could offer.

obviously i underestimated my opponent, and rather than get my face smashed flat, i surrendered.

as it is, i learned something, which is good, and i must admit, Heretics information sounds more beleivable and accurate than the commonly held belief.

and i understand heretics behavior, im guilty of it myself in regards to palentological discussion.

Colonel Wolfe · Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:20 pm

My Source of Information on Ninjas come form realultimatepower.net

Robert Hamburger is the Internet's authority on Ninjas and Ninja Society.

Colonel Wolfe · Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:17 pm

heretic888 wrote:Cliches are fun.

Cliches and Sterotypes are the Backbone of Modren Fiction. If not for cliched Ninja's and Nerd Sterotypes, Sci-fi and RPGs would have nothing to Write about.

Prince Cherico · Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:20 pm

real ultimant power I still love the hate male section

Trooper Jim · Unread post by **Trooper Jim** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:01 am

heretic888 wrote:

Actually, History and Tradition was "ghostwritten" by Stephen Hayes.

OK call me stupid, But what is wrong with Hayes? I really don't know the answer to this I am not trying to challenge anyone, Just curious.

Slag · Unread post by **Slag** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:11 pm

*sings* Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends...

Slag · Unread post by **Slag** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:46 pm

heretic888 wrote:
Slag wrote:*sings* Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends...

Who says we're not??

Based on the bickering and sniping attacks I'd have guessed you were married!

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:31 pm

Originally posted by evilgeek.
Now, why oh why would anyone collude (that means to conspire fraudulently)... in asia. For the same reason Ueshiba Morihei's student's never refuted his claims about floating, invisibility, magical dancing lights, super strength, dodging bullets, and teleportation. Because to do so would be rude, uncouth, embarassing, even disgraceful more to YOU than to them.

Dude! C'mon, where am I going to get new martial art powers for N&S if that stuff is fake?

Vrykolas2k · Unread post by **Vrykolas2k** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:22 pm

heretic888 wrote:
DaHarlequin wrote:Good post heretic

Thanks.

DaHarlequin wrote:Most ninja back in the day were actually religious followers of Ninpo who moved to the mountains to avoid persecution from mainstream society. The Iga/Koga types led to the Hollywood version of what a ninja is perceived to be nowadays. Most were simple peasants who also wanted to train in martial techniques but were not allowed due to the society of the time.

Ummm..... no, that's actually the exact opposite of what that "good post" you referred to actually stated.

During the Muromachi Jidai, the warriors from Iga and Koga were not peasants (for the most part) and Iga and Koga were most definately not "persecuted" by anyone. The religious oppression line that Hayes gave in some of his earlier works has no actual basis in history.

Oda Nobuo and Oda Nobunaga invaded Iga/Koga in the 1580's, but thats because Nobunaga wanted their land and wanted to unify/control Japan. It was nothing against the "ninja" per se.

Also, two little side notes:

1) "Ninpo" is not a religion, nor is it in any way formalized or ritualized. It is more along the lines of a broad outlook or approach to life.

2) Until Toyotomi Hideyoshi's "sword hunt" in the late 1500's, any peasant (for the most part) could own swords, fight, and so on --- in fact, Japan's armies were by and large composed of members of the peasantry. The social stratifications didn't become really concrete until the Edo Jidai (when civil war in Japan basically stopped, thus allowing an elitist "warrior class" to arise when the daimyo were no longer dependent on peasant conscripts).

DHarlequin wrote:Some other good books I recommend are "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition" and "Ninpo" by Soke Masaaki Hatsumi. He's the current grandmaster of traditional ninjutsu as well as several other schools.

Actually, History and Tradition was "ghostwritten" by Stephen Hayes.

Well, not ANY peasant.
And there was also a class of samurai-peasants which got outlawed later on...
Other than that I must say THANK YOU for clearing up some BS I've tried to correct IRL for Years. Mostly from people who have read some rag about "ninja" written by some-one who likely hadn't even spent much time in Japan at the time the articles were written.
O... and I see no mention of the Amida cult anywhere, and they were some of the deadliest of the "ninja".

Vrykolas2k · Unread post by **Vrykolas2k** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:16 pm

heretic888 wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:Well, not ANY peasant.

Any peasant that wanted to, anyway. It should be remembered that ashigaru (peasant-soldier conscripts) outnumbered samurai by 20 to 1 in Japan's feudal armies. Ergo, there were far more peasant-class people with swords than there were buke.

Vrykolas2k wrote:And there was also a class of samurai-peasants which got outlawed later on...

Yup, the jizamurai. Hideyoshi's 'sword hunt' basically put the kibosh on them, too --- although, the group wasn't strictly abolished until the Tokugawa Shogunate rigidly stratified the classes (in which all jizamurai had the choice of becoming a peasant or samurai, no more in-between).

Vrykolas2k wrote:Other than that I must say THANK YOU for clearing up some BS I've tried to correct IRL for Years. Mostly from people who have read some rag about "ninja" written by some-one who likely hadn't even spent much time in Japan at the time the articles were written.

No problemo.

Vrykolas2k wrote:O... and I see no mention of the Amida cult anywhere, and they were some of the deadliest of the "ninja".

The Pure Land sect, as far as I know, have nothing to do with "ninja". I think you may be mixing up the Iga Sokoku Ikki and the Ikko-Ikki there. They were the two largest ikki in Japan, after all.

I read your inclusion of the jizumarai in the later post.

Gomen_Nagai · Unread post by **Gomen_Nagai** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:38 am

wow. all I gotta say is that there is plenty of topic drift... I really don't see a connection between the Founding US fathers, and Korean Martial Arts, and Tokugawa period Ashagiri ...
but I' would believe that Hawrang do is based on alot of fiction that the Koreans would promote..
that said.. What would the Fictionalized version of Hawrang do include ( ala Rifts China II mystic martial art)