Chi-Town destroyed during Siege of Tolkeen?

[Qev]

Can someone please explain to me how Chi-Town could have possibly survived the war with Tolkeen? I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but, all it would take is three people, and one ER nuclear device, and Chi-Town is a radioactive grease-stain on the map.

First person: A regular human being, a spy. Travels to the lowest, scummiest levels of Chi-Town, then returns to Tolkeen. Difficult, but possible.

Second person: Mind Melter, uses Mind-Bond on spy to learn everything he knows.

Third person: Magic user with Teleport Superior (okay, he'd probably need friends to amass the 600 PPE). Mind Melter mind-bonds with him also, magic user now knows precise location of Chi-Town. Teleports there with nuke. Teleports out using Teleport Minor. 30 seconds later, everything in Chi-Town is dead from acute neutron radiation exposure.

*scratches head*

You can tell I don't like the Coalition. Appeals to the Hand of God/KS as a defense for Chi-Town automatically mean I'm right.

[cornholioprime]

Can someone please explain to me how Chi-Town could have possibly survived the war with Tolkeen? I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but, all it would take is three people, and one ER nuclear device, and Chi-Town is a radioactive grease-stain on the map.

First person: A regular human being, a spy. Travels to the lowest, scummiest levels of Chi-Town, then returns to Tolkeen. Difficult, but possible.

Second person: Mind Melter, uses Mind-Bond on spy to learn everything he knows.

Third person: Magic user with Teleport Superior (okay, he'd probably need friends to amass the 600 PPE). Mind Melter mind-bonds with him also, magic user now knows precise location of Chi-Town. Teleports there with nuke. Teleports out using Teleport Minor. 30 seconds later, everything in Chi-Town is dead from acute neutron radiation exposure.

*scratches head*

You can tell I don't like the Coalition. Appeals to the Hand of God/KS as a defense for Chi-Town automatically mean I'm right.

The hand of God, [shameless Plug]as described in short by my Sig[ /Shameless plug], protects them in a variety of ways.

A]] There are apparently so many Dog Boys per square inch (how else to explain how NO Magic User is said to have penetrated a City of such vast size) in Chi-Town that The Fortress City must by now have more mass than a Black Hole.

B]] In Canon, the Coalition somehow managed to find and take posession of ALL the Nukes in North America; even those few Intact Missile Silos that Kev left as Adventure Ideas, and which logically MUST have been found by an Adventuring Party somewhere by now, have for some reason (yes, hand of God again) NEVER found their way into the hands of parties in opposition to the Coalition.

Even freaking ATLANTIS isn't specifically said to have Nukes in Canon, nor does Naruni Enterprises make these Items available on Earth...and between the two, you can buy most ANYTHING else in the Megaverse from thjose two that you could possibly want.

C]] Not only does Kev write Magic-Using Nations as pretty stupid, he ALSO makes them almost Techno-Phobic; according to Kev, they'd take one look at the Nuke, the ONE thing that might give the Coalition pause, and throw it away.....

D]] The Coalition States have Super-nukes as a sort of M.A.D. deterrent; NONE of the Magical States, including Atlantis, have the same.

E]] Magic-Using Nations and/or Individuals NEVER retaliate in a meaningful manner against Chi-Town, or haven't you noticed??
Even now, several (in-Game) years later, you have several THOUSAND Dragons, the undisputed Megaversal masters of Revenge, who have just been kicked out of their Homes, with perhaps hundreds of their number killed, and NO revenge yet?? This is as nearly disturbing/nonsensical (from what we've always been told about Dragons) as Xiticix that don't attack large Troop Formations.....



P.S. Qev, for the record, I neither "like" nor "dislike" Chi-Town; but as I have ALWAYS said, I absolutely HATE the way in which they were written and are artificially protected....

[Mech-Viper Prime]

can i get some cheese?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i really dont see a change in how the coaltion would act, like i always say most of coaltion anti-dbees laws are straight from Free Quebec.
only different a non-prosek coalition would have not psi stalkers and no dogboys

[Qev]

Heh, I guess I just can't understand the writers' justifications. I mean, just using the core rulebook, and one 20th century technology, in two minutes I came up with an effectively unstoppable means of destroying the (any!) city.

If Tolkeen or whomever were feeling really dedicated, I'm sure they could use some form of clairvoiyance to find all the CS missile silos, and repeat the performance on those as well (not to mention Lone Star, Free Quebec, etc).

Magic-users don't like technology? Fine, build a TW ER-Nuke. And don't tell me they can't get the materials. There's plenty here on Earth, and how many nexus points are available to Tolkeen? As if they couldn't buy/trade/obtain/steal fissionables from someplace... let alone just transmute some themselves.

The fact that the CS has no magic-using population inherently means they have no defence against magic. Not terribly bright of them.

Were I running the CS, I wouldn't make it a secular dictatorship, I'd introduce my own state religion, and only my magic-users and psionics (granted their powers from my religion's 'god') are good, all others are evil. History has proven that populations are suckers for faith.

Maybe I should start a poll, to vote as players whether we should strike the Siege of Tolkeen from canon or not.

[Slag]

Before this thread goes where I know it will, let me be the first to refer everyone to MY sig!

[Qev]

i really dont see a change in how the coaltion would act, like i always say most of coaltion anti-dbees laws are straight from Free Quebec.
only different a non-prosek coalition would have not psi stalkers and no dogboys

I don't know... without Chi-Town to keep the others in line (and act as a central administration, both physically and logically), I imagine they'd be far-enough separated from each other (esp. Lone Star) that they'd devolve into bickering states.

Not to mention, their enemies aren't just going to sit back and let an opportunity like that pass.

[Qev]

Before this thread goes where I know it will, let me be the first to refer everyone to MY sig!

Hey, I'm new here, I'm allowed to drag up old, dead, stinky, decomposing thread topics.

Er... aren't I?

[RockJock]

For all we know Chitown is surrounded by some great Circle of Protection:Nuke that was put their before they went anti magic. Remember the Vanguard as well as characters like Plato were once CS.





Granted that is all total BS, but beats the writter says "cause"

[Slag]

Before this thread goes where I know it will, let me be the first to refer everyone to MY sig!

Hey, I'm new here, I'm allowed to drag up old, dead, stinky, decomposing thread topics.

Er... aren't I?

My friend, there are some corpses that should not be exhumed. You know those horror films that start with the idealistic young explorer opening the skull-motif door to the dark tomb? You're in one.

[Ed]

Can someone please explain to me how Chi-Town could have possibly survived the war with Tolkeen? I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but, all it would take is three people, and one ER nuclear device, and Chi-Town is a radioactive grease-stain on the map.

First person: A regular human being, a spy. Travels to the lowest, scummiest levels of Chi-Town, then returns to Tolkeen. Difficult, but possible.

Second person: Mind Melter, uses Mind-Bond on spy to learn everything he knows.

Third person: Magic user with Teleport Superior (okay, he'd probably need friends to amass the 600 PPE). Mind Melter mind-bonds with him also, magic user now knows precise location of Chi-Town. Teleports there with nuke. Teleports out using Teleport Minor. 30 seconds later, everything in Chi-Town is dead from acute neutron radiation exposure.

*scratches head*

You can tell I don't like the Coalition. Appeals to the Hand of God/KS as a defense for Chi-Town automatically mean I'm right.

Taking the points of your plan and in no way attempting to re-start this entire debate...

How is it so easy to gain access to vulnerable areas of Chi-Town? Where does this so-called regular human being, get their access to even a minimum security area? What happens when s/he gets stopped and mind-bonded/thought probed by Chi-Town security? Where does the nuke, in perfect working order, come from when the two largest weapons suppliers won't even carry them? Where did the attackers learn to arm/operate it? How does your plan overcome the restriction against teleporting into environmentally sealed spaces? How do you prevent every psi in Chi-town from having clairvoyant fits regarding the inimment attack? What happens if the nuke detonates in an armored area designed to compartmentalize and limit blast damage? What happens if the nuke isn't big enough to take out Chi-town?

Far from being a fait accompli, your plan has too many variables and assumptions to function.

[dark brandon]

Can someone please explain to me how Chi-Town could have possibly survived the war with Tolkeen? I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but, all it would take is three people, and one ER nuclear device, and Chi-Town is a radioactive grease-stain on the map.

First person: A regular human being, a spy. Travels to the lowest, scummiest levels of Chi-Town, then returns to Tolkeen. Difficult, but possible.

Second person: Mind Melter, uses Mind-Bond on spy to learn everything he knows.

Third person: Magic user with Teleport Superior (okay, he'd probably need friends to amass the 600 PPE). Mind Melter mind-bonds with him also, magic user now knows precise location of Chi-Town. Teleports there with nuke. Teleports out using Teleport Minor. 30 seconds later, everything in Chi-Town is dead from acute neutron radiation exposure.

*scratches head*

You can tell I don't like the Coalition. Appeals to the Hand of God/KS as a defense for Chi-Town automatically mean I'm right.

1) Nukes arn't common. You don't go to the walmart and pick up a nuke while buying school supplies.

2) The people of chi-town are not evil, just the government. If you did that total annialation of so many innocent people, do you really think you'd get away with it?

3) That is so evil, you won't just have CS soldiers trying to stop you but anyone who has any sense of compassion, meaning other mages and psionics.

4) Chi-town use to have mages work for them many many years ago. There may be a better than average chance there is some form of passive magical protection about the city.

5) Nukes only do 1 or 2 D4x100 MDC. You'd take a portion of the city, no doubt, but all you will do is just terrify the masses, because we see how well terrorist attacks work today, thereby giving CS even MORE power over their city.

6) Do that and you may end up losing the support of cyberknights any good being that is fighting for you, and maybe even pull in Quebec into the fray.

7) finally, CS has nukes of their own. I don't have all the CS war books, but I believe I heard someone say they tried to use them against tolkeen once, and they got swallowed. this time, they probably wouldn't aim for the city, but outside the city. The nukes have a 50 mile radius so there's no need to hit the city right on.

[Killer Cyborg]

Can someone please explain to me how Chi-Town could have possibly survived the war with Tolkeen? I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but, all it would take is three people, and one ER nuclear device, and Chi-Town is a radioactive grease-stain on the map.

First person: A regular human being, a spy. Travels to the lowest, scummiest levels of Chi-Town, then returns to Tolkeen. Difficult, but possible.

Second person: Mind Melter, uses Mind-Bond on spy to learn everything he knows.

Third person: Magic user with Teleport Superior (okay, he'd probably need friends to amass the 600 PPE). Mind Melter mind-bonds with him also, magic user now knows precise location of Chi-Town. Teleports there with nuke. Teleports out using Teleport Minor. 30 seconds later, everything in Chi-Town is dead from acute neutron radiation exposure.

*scratches head*

You can tell I don't like the Coalition. Appeals to the Hand of God/KS as a defense for Chi-Town automatically mean I'm right.

You're doing fine until you get to step three.
1. Chi-Town may be protected by force-fields that prevent teleportation.
2. Tolkeen doesn't have any nukes, other than the wimpy Longe Range Missile types that wouldn't do any significant damage.
3. Everbody's 6th Sense would be triggered before this happened.
4. CS Psychics would detect the event with Clairavoyance before hit happened.
5. In my games the CS uses Telepathy and Empathy to scan all people entering or leaving the city.

[Jefffar]

My 2 cents:

Kevin is responsible for the general metaplot of the games. He creates the settings and outlines the course of events as they will unfold if the players or GM don't alter them.

In your game, the outlined scenario could happen. In your game, the PCs could be the group that tries to make the above scenario occur. In your game the PC might be trying to prevent the above scenario from occuring.

But unless the GM and players make an alternate event such as a nuke getting into Chi-town occuring, it doesn't happen.

So, in your game, if you want Chi-town to be nuked, step right up and swing for the bleachers.

[Qev]

My friend, there are some corpses that should not be exhumed. You know those horror films that start with the idealistic young explorer opening the skull-motif door to the dark tomb? You're in one.

Say, what's behind this strange door here, all covered in scary warning-looking runes, and sealed with lead? Hmmm...

*starts chipping away at the lead...*

[Qev]

How is it so easy to gain access to vulnerable areas of Chi-Town? Where does this so-called regular human being, get their access to even a minimum security area?

Aw, come on... everybody has spies spying on everyone else. It's the nature of states to do this. I'm talking about non-security areas, the trash-heap wasteland underneath Chi-Town. Of course, spies get caught, that's part of the risk in that job. I certainly wouldn't tell the spy why I want this information, or even what information he's actually looking for.

How does your plan overcome the restriction against teleporting into environmentally sealed spaces?

You can't seriously be telling me that Teleport (Superior) can't teleport into a building...?

How do you prevent every psi in Chi-town from having clairvoyant fits regarding the inimment attack?

You don't. Can they find and disarm that nuke in 30 seconds, though? ( a lucky Telemechanic would be a serious PITA for my plan )

What happens if the nuke detonates in an armored area designed to compartmentalize and limit blast damage?

That would definitely be an irritating problem, indeed!

1) Nukes arn't common. You don't go to the walmart and pick up a nuke while buying school supplies.

This is a world where super-mecha weapons are sold on every street corner. A nuclear device is trivial in design compared to what's available in Rifts to random wilderness vagabonds.

2) The people of chi-town are not evil, just the government. If you did that total annialation of so many innocent people, do you really think you'd get away with it?

3) That is so evil, you won't just have CS soldiers trying to stop you but anyone who has any sense of compassion, meaning other mages and psionics.

I never said this was a moral course of action. Certainly, this would be an evil act. But what should they do, just lay down and die instead? That's just silly.

4) Chi-town use to have mages work for them many many years ago. There may be a better than average chance there is some form of passive magical protection about the city.

That is a definite possibility. I wasn't aware of this, to be honest; I must've missed it someplace. Though I don't know how many magical defenses that could prevent this are permanent in nature; they'd have to be, without any magic practitioners to refresh the enchantments.

5) Nukes only do 1 or 2 D4x100 MDC. You'd take a portion of the city, no doubt, but all you will do is just terrify the masses, because we see how well terrorist attacks work today, thereby giving CS even MORE power over their city.

Wow, they seriously like to underpower stuff like this, don't they. So... the Tsar Bomb would only do 2d4x100 MDC? oO Of course, the point of the weapons I'm referring to (ER weapons) is not blast damage, but rather direct-kill through radiation exposure. These devices are designed for use against heavily armored targets that would be resistant to a 'normal' nuclear attack. They're commonly known as 'neutron bombs'.

6) Do that and you may end up losing the support of cyberknights any good being that is fighting for you, and maybe even pull in Quebec into the fray.

Well, Quebec already came into the fray on the CS's side. And yes, many of their good-aligned allies would probably desert them after an act like this. However, if you've eliminated the enemy...

7) finally, CS has nukes of their own. I don't have all the CS war books, but I believe I heard someone say they tried to use them against tolkeen once, and they got swallowed. this time, they probably wouldn't aim for the city, but outside the city. The nukes have a 50 mile radius so there's no need to hit the city right on.

True enough, it would probably lead to a very unpleasant nuclear exchange. I would consider this sort of action a last-ditch thing by Tolkeen... not that the war should ever have gone as badly for them as was written.

And yes, I do realize the whole SoT thing is purely at the GM's discression. This is just pure sophistry on my part. Whatever you do, don't take this thread seriously!!

[TechnoGothic]

everything in Chi-Town is dead from acute neutron radiation exposure.

Just to nit-pick...

GAMMA Radiation is what what makes Nukes so deadly afterwords...

Neutron Bombs...release a quick burst of Neurton Radition, and ALL organics are atomized, leaving the building intact and ready to use. No leangering Radiation to worry about...

Neurton Bombs would be a Great weapon to use in real life. We have them, but they are banned by U.N. as too selective in their destructive power...

So, GAMMA Radiation is the Bad Radiation we all hear about all the time...

[J. Lionheart]

i really dont see a change in how the coaltion would act, like i always say most of coaltion anti-dbees laws are straight from Free Quebec.
only different a non-prosek coalition would have not psi stalkers and no dogboys

Uhh... I'm not a RIFTS player so maybe I'm crazy, but I coulda sworn I heard that Free Quebec left the CS? I don't recall hearing about a matching end to laws against DBee's though.

[Qev]

everything in Chi-Town is dead from acute neutron radiation exposure.

Just to nit-pick...

GAMMA Radiation is what what makes Nukes so deadly afterwords...

Neutron Bombs...release a quick burst of Neurton Radition, and ALL organics are atomized, leaving the building intact and ready to use. No leangering Radiation to worry about...

Neurton Bombs would be a Great weapon to use in real life. We have them, but they are banned by U.N. as too selective in their destructive power...

So, GAMMA Radiation is the Bad Radiation we all hear about all the time...

No, actually, ER weapons are designed to emit massive amounts of fast neutrons, which is the point. They lack the fissionable cladding that normal nukes use to capture this radiation and trigger secondary fission/fusion reactions. The blast and gamma radiation is not insignificant, of course, but the point is armor penetration. Even today, modern tank armor will stop most of the blast and gamma radiation effects of standard nukes, assuming they're dug in and not at absolute ground zero. Fast neutron radiation, however, is highly penetrating, destructive to living tissue, and has the annoying tendency (unlike other forms of radiation) to render normal materials highly radioactive themselves.

Also, ER weapons are not 'infrastructure bombs'. They don't kill organic life while leaving the factories, buildings, etc. intact. The blast effects are nearly as severe as standard nuclear weapons. They're anti-armor weapons.

[Qev]

Clairvoyance goes off, somewhere, on floor B, in the next 6 hours, a nuke will be detonated.

Psi-Battalion A goes into clairvoyance procedure 1.

half of the 640 pyschic soldiers ( I think thats the size of a batallion), practice clairvoyance for the next 3 hours, while the other half walk around searching for clues, strange activities, and their sixth sense to go off. 2 Squads of Psi-Techs on Sky Cycles are dispatched to the scene.

Sixth Sense goes off, 2 minutes untill bomb arrives. Psi-Techs arrive on scene, Mage teleports in. 20 or so different attacks of bio-manipulation pain,blind, and whatever else hit him. Psi-Techs disable bomb.

Mage taken to Interrogation.


Thats whats wrong.

You make a very good point! Hmm, I think my nefarious plot is a touch too simple, then. I'll need to re-think things.

Of course, Clairvoiyance isn't nearly that precise ( which of course, also shoots down my idea of using it to find the CS's missile silos ), so I still think they've got a good chance of pulling it off.

[cornholioprime]

The strongest nukes written in the game are wimpy. Not going to do much at only 5D6X10 MDC past the 0 to 1000ft mark where it actually does decent damage.

The CS, and the CS ALONE, are stated in Canon to have the old-fashioned, super-dirty, Earth's Crust-cracking HyperNukes of the Golden Age.

THOSE Nukes don't stop the Blast Radius at "just" 50-1000 feet (see Rifts: Coalition Navy)........

[Qev]

The strongest nukes written in the game are wimpy. Not going to do much at only 5D6X10 MDC past the 0 to 1000ft mark where it actually does decent damage.

The CS, and the CS ALONE, are stated in Canon to have the old-fashioned, super-dirty, Earth's Crust-cracking HyperNukes of the Golden Age.

THOSE Nukes don't stop the Blast Radius at "just" 50-1000 feet (see Rifts: Coalition Navy)........

Wow, I just read that, and they really didn't do their homework on 'ER' weapons, did they. You can't make a thermonuclear ER bomb (it doesn't work that way), they're very dirty bombs, and the thought of environmental body armor protecting the wearer is kinda ridiculous... the whole point of ER weapons is armor penetration!

*starts chanting to self, "Suspension of disbelief... suspension of disbelief..."*

[Dustin Fireblade]

i really dont see a change in how the coaltion would act, like i always say most of coaltion anti-dbees laws are straight from Free Quebec.
only different a non-prosek coalition would have not psi stalkers and no dogboys

Uhh... I'm not a RIFTS player so maybe I'm crazy, but I coulda sworn I heard that Free Quebec left the CS? I don't recall hearing about a matching end to laws against DBee's though.

In SoT the forces of Tolkeen and FQ made a pact to wipe out the CS forces that were facing FQ, then Quebec forces would help Tolkeen fight off the CS.
FQ did a double-cross though and attacked Tolkeen. The CS also came in at the last minute when they realized what was going on and fought with the FQ forces against Tolkeen.

[dark brandon]

Time slow down. So your telling me my adult dragon charracter who been amassing wealth since the beyond the supernatural era of rifts earth is can by a wrath of god super destroyer from naruni but they can't get me a nuke?
Gotta talk my naruni sales rep he jiping us all big time.
Oh and six is no denfense against the nuke only til armed and threat to the charracter friends within 2000 ft does go off how many random threats exist in chi town i wonder with all the back biting and power plays?
Six sense warns when danger is within 2000 ft that how many 30 seconds to warn any one the search.

How did you amass a wealth of unimaginable proportions? By not taking stupid chances, not needlessly spending money and other things. Dragons by the rule do not congragate in large masses. What this means is that by their very nature, they probably wanted to leave anyways, but then, the ability to make so much money is kinda hard to turn down. So, yes, he probably could buy a nuke. But why would he? Tolkeen has only been around for only a second (in dragon terms), and why risk that wealth. Most dragons were stated as fleeing (what do they care if tolkeen falls, they made their money and probably went back to their "real" home) when the major force came in. Few of them had any "Loyalty" to the nation, it's a nice place to hang out, collect some cash but that's about it.

This is a world where super-mecha weapons are sold on every street corner. A nuclear device is trivial in design compared to what's available in Rifts to random wilderness vagabonds.

Generally speaking MDC things are suppost to be super rare. And by canon, CS is one of the few nations that have nukes. They may be easy to make, but by canon, CS has them, Tolkeen didn't.

It may not make much sense, but you can't read too much into it. If you do, you'll end up hating rifts for things that just can't be techniqually possible. For example: Cardboard is stronger than chromium (The stuff Glitterboys are made of)...someone went out and did a whole bunch of calculations and showed cardboard rocks vs. MDC metal. Then there is the idea that Robots in humanoid form are actually a BAD idea.

I never said this was a moral course of action. Certainly, this would be an evil act. But what should they do, just lay down and die instead? That's just silly. Smile

Open a rift to lazlo. Everyone goes through. Now no one dies, no war, and best of all, the MEANING of what Tolkeen was isn't lost. Tolkeen was a place of learning. Tolkeen was destoryed long before the missles of the CS burned their cities to the ground when they forgot what it ment to be "tolkeen".

Strange as this sounds, it's actually true. Tolkeen use to be this grand place, where Techno-wizards were cool, and learning was great...then they fell into war.

That is a definite possibility. I wasn't aware of this, to be honest; I must've missed it someplace. Smile Though I don't know how many magical defenses that could prevent this are permanent in nature; they'd have to be, without any magic practitioners to refresh the enchantments.

Some magics don't need to be refreshed and the idea that it's passive (only activiating when needs to) would probably make it imperceptable to dogboys). Magic weapons for example don't need to be refreshed, nor do magic armor. Those are just some examples of magics that don't need to be refreshed. And at the same time, if it did need to be, the vanguard still operate around chi-town, so it's possible they may recharge it if needs be.

Wow, they seriously like to underpower stuff like this, don't they. So... the Tsar Bomb would only do 2d4x100 MDC? oO Of course, the point of the weapons I'm referring to (ER weapons) is not blast damage, but rather direct-kill through radiation exposure. These devices are designed for use against heavily armored targets that would be resistant to a 'normal' nuclear attack. They're commonly known as 'neutron bombs'.

I'm not quite sure what your saying here cause i'm not into bombs and all, but by the book, MDC material will block out most radiations, and the damage is 1 or 2 D4 x100. Any bomb (even a nuke) would be localized in chi-town. At the same time, If chi-town is protected by forcefields and/or magics, then any blast damage woul still be kept to a minimum.

Well, Quebec already came into the fray on the CS's side. And yes, many of their good-aligned allies would probably desert them after an act like this. However, if you've eliminated the enemy...

Quebec didn't join in the fray on CS's side. For most of the war, cs was at war with Quebec. And you may have destoryed Chi-town (at best), but there are other states, and the primary concern will be to destory those who killed so many innocent people. With a loss of allies, and new enemies (Dunscon would NOT be pleased you killed Prosek...that was his kill not yours), chances are, all you'd have done is forced tolkeen to go down in history as just as horrible a monster as CS was, thereby destorying Tolkeen (Or the idea of what tolkeen was) in a way CS could have only hoped to do.

[Zer0 Kay]

For all we know Chitown is surrounded by some great Circle of Protection:Nuke that was put their before they went anti magic. Remember the Vanguard as well as characters like Plato were once CS.





Granted that is all total BS, but beats the writter says "cause"

Where's it say Plato is ex-CS?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i really dont see a change in how the coaltion would act, like i always say most of coaltion anti-dbees laws are straight from Free Quebec.
only different a non-prosek coalition would have not psi stalkers and no dogboys

Uhh... I'm not a RIFTS player so maybe I'm crazy, but I coulda sworn I heard that Free Quebec left the CS? I don't recall hearing about a matching end to laws against DBee's though.

actully RQ is more on the right on the d-bee thing then the coalition notice in fq military no dogboys or psi-stalkers.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

For all we know Chitown is surrounded by some great Circle of Protection:Nuke that was put their before they went anti magic. Remember the Vanguard as well as characters like Plato were once CS.





Granted that is all total BS, but beats the writter says "cause"

Where's it say Plato is ex-CS?

i know Plato worked in the great libary at chi-town, as for being part of the CS i dont know

[Zer0 Kay]

Can someone please explain to me how Chi-Town could have possibly survived the war with Tolkeen? I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but, all it would take is three people, and one ER nuclear device, and Chi-Town is a radioactive grease-stain on the map.

First person: A regular human being, a spy. Travels to the lowest, scummiest levels of Chi-Town, then returns to Tolkeen. Difficult, but possible.

Second person: Mind Melter, uses Mind-Bond on spy to learn everything he knows.

Third person: Magic user with Teleport Superior (okay, he'd probably need friends to amass the 600 PPE). Mind Melter mind-bonds with him also, magic user now knows precise location of Chi-Town. Teleports there with nuke. Teleports out using Teleport Minor. 30 seconds later, everything in Chi-Town is dead from acute neutron radiation exposure.

*scratches head*

You can tell I don't like the Coalition. Appeals to the Hand of God/KS as a defense for Chi-Town automatically mean I'm right.

Taking the points of your plan and in no way attempting to re-start this entire debate...

How is it so easy to gain access to vulnerable areas of Chi-Town? Where does this so-called regular human being, get their access to even a minimum security area? What happens when s/he gets stopped and mind-bonded/thought probed by Chi-Town security? Where does the nuke, in perfect working order, come from when the two largest weapons suppliers won't even carry them? Where did the attackers learn to arm/operate it? How does your plan overcome the restriction against teleporting into environmentally sealed spaces? How do you prevent every psi in Chi-town from having clairvoyant fits regarding the inimment attack? What happens if the nuke detonates in an armored area designed to compartmentalize and limit blast damage? What happens if the nuke isn't big enough to take out Chi-town?

Far from being a fait accompli, your plan has too many variables and assumptions to function.

Bold Mine why don't you look at the thread on that oh wait let me dredge through the freaking site for you... oh found it viewtopic.php?t=24975&highlight= Environmental sealing has NOTHING to do with it. The spy would have to get cought first. So they try to evacuate the city. Clairavoiant visions usually don't tell all the details. Uh the spy would probalby check the area and find the best place to plant it. The spy wouldn't have to gain access to a minimum security area just a non-shielded populated area. What is the CS going to do without it's population, including it's soldiers.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

bad Zero Kay bad Zero Kay bad bad bad no! no! no! how dare you do that

[Zer0 Kay]

Can someone please explain to me how Chi-Town could have possibly survived the war with Tolkeen? I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but, all it would take is three people, and one ER nuclear device, and Chi-Town is a radioactive grease-stain on the map.

First person: A regular human being, a spy. Travels to the lowest, scummiest levels of Chi-Town, then returns to Tolkeen. Difficult, but possible.

Second person: Mind Melter, uses Mind-Bond on spy to learn everything he knows.

Third person: Magic user with Teleport Superior (okay, he'd probably need friends to amass the 600 PPE). Mind Melter mind-bonds with him also, magic user now knows precise location of Chi-Town. Teleports there with nuke. Teleports out using Teleport Minor. 30 seconds later, everything in Chi-Town is dead from acute neutron radiation exposure.

*scratches head*

You can tell I don't like the Coalition. Appeals to the Hand of God/KS as a defense for Chi-Town automatically mean I'm right.

1) Nukes arn't common. You don't go to the walmart and pick up a nuke while buying school supplies.

2) The people of chi-town are not evil, just the government. If you did that total annialation of so many innocent people, do you really think you'd get away with it?

3) That is so evil, you won't just have CS soldiers trying to stop you but anyone who has any sense of compassion, meaning other mages and psionics.

4) Chi-town use to have mages work for them many many years ago. There may be a better than average chance there is some form of passive magical protection about the city.

5) Nukes only do 1 or 2 D4x100 MDC. You'd take a portion of the city, no doubt, but all you will do is just terrify the masses, because we see how well terrorist attacks work today, thereby giving CS even MORE power over their city.

6) Do that and you may end up losing the support of cyberknights any good being that is fighting for you, and maybe even pull in Quebec into the fray.

7) finally, CS has nukes of their own. I don't have all the CS war books, but I believe I heard someone say they tried to use them against tolkeen once, and they got swallowed. this time, they probably wouldn't aim for the city, but outside the city. The nukes have a 50 mile radius so there's no need to hit the city right on.

1) The materials needed are fairly easy to get to in a world where there isn't tight security guarding all sources.

2) Not all the people in Nagasaki or Heroshima were soldiers. Yes you would get away with it sometimes in order to remove the disease you must remove the limb.

3) All the good characters would be trying to slaughter you for the same reason that they wouldn't do that to the people of the CS. Besides it is a war.

4) They still do and there are other ways to get in, not all of them magical. Trial and error, trial and error.

5) Build a bigger one. That is only immediate blast. What about radiation?

6) You mean like how Tolkien lost the support of Cyber Knights even though they were using a ton of dark magic? Besides how do they know who did it? A good being isn't going to be going around probing everyones mind to find out who did it.

7) Who says I'd be working for Tolkien? Aside from the intial post. Actually they were shielded and there isn't anything that says that the shield wouldn't protect them from the blast.

[dark brandon]

1) The materials needed are fairly easy to get to in a world where there isn't tight security guarding all sources.

2) Not all the people in Nagasaki or Heroshima were soldiers. Yes you would get away with it sometimes in order to remove the disease you must remove the limb.

3) All the good characters would be trying to slaughter you for the same reason that they wouldn't do that to the people of the CS. Besides it is a war.

4) They still do and there are other ways to get in, not all of them magical. Trial and error, trial and error.

5) Build a bigger one. That is only immediate blast. What about radiation?

6) You mean like how Tolkien lost the support of Cyber Knights even though they were using a ton of dark magic? Besides how do they know who did it? A good being isn't going to be going around probing everyones mind to find out who did it.

7) Who says I'd be working for Tolkien? Aside from the intial post. Actually they were shielded and there isn't anything that says that the shield wouldn't protect them from the blast.

Whoo...I really hate arguing with you Zero. So I'm not gonna bother, not this time, i'm just not really up for it today. Sorry.

[Zer0 Kay]

Clairvoyance goes off, somewhere, on floor B, in the next 6 hours, a nuke will be detonated.

Psi-Battalion A goes into clairvoyance procedure 1.

half of the 640 pyschic soldiers ( I think thats the size of a batallion), practice clairvoyance for the next 3 hours, while the other half walk around searching for clues, strange activities, and their sixth sense to go off. 2 Squads of Psi-Techs on Sky Cycles are dispatched to the scene.

Sixth Sense goes off, 2 minutes untill bomb arrives. Psi-Techs arrive on scene, Mage teleports in. 20 or so different attacks of bio-manipulation pain,blind, and whatever else hit him. Psi-Techs disable bomb.

Mage taken to Interrogation.


Thats whats wrong.

WITHIN the next 6 hours... Psi goes to tell superior BOOM Hey it was within 6 hours.

[dark brandon]

as a side note, No one has to like how SoT went. By the book, that's just how things went. And for whatever reason, that is how it is.

As Demos 606 said best "I don't write the books, I just try to come up with viable explinations for some of the nonsense that gets written."

[SirTenzan]

"In May of 119PA, the Ghosts were ordered by our new Air Operations Commander to escort Grand City's Revenge (5th RTAF Strategic Bombardment Squadron) on a bombing raid on Chi-Town itself.

We screened out ahead of the bombers, cloaked under Ghost Project equipment, and probed for any aerial opposition. After a couple of sightings of light civil aircraft, we came across our first adversaries. In the hour or so that followed, we engaged at least three squadrons worth of Nightwings sent up to identify and engage the GCR aircraft. Using our customary tactics, we managed to make short work of them, despite their apparent use of EMD (Electro-Magnetic Distortion) sensors.

Once we entered the defensive grid of the city though it was like SAM soup, with a side of Ak-Ak. Cloaked, we didn't have a whole lot of trouble, since they hadn't developed their AALCs (Anti-Aircraft Listening Corps; soldiers augmented with Amplified Hearing and trained to home in on the sound of aircraft using Ghost Project equipment, which muffles the sound of exhaust by close to 90%.), but there were still some close calls.

While all the Ghosts managed to get out okay, only half of GCR's bombers got out in one piece. Two, however, after sustaining severe damage, nosed down into the city with a full load of FAE trailing behind them. It was quite a sight, but the effect was terrible to say the least. The first one took out a good sized area of the top level of Chi-Town, which was bad enough, and the other caught the southern wall about 5 levels down from the top. We watched about a three mile area of the Burbs on the south side of the city incinerated as the burning cloud of gasses dropped over them.

In terms of military impact, there was little, but it certainly shook up the CS, and us Ghosts as well. The death toll for Chi-Town, or so the Tolkeenite media reported, was in the tens of thousands. Considering it was Tolkeenite media during wartime, you have to take that with a grain of salt as well. The burbite losses, I've learned through several sources, were incalculable, as they have so many drifters and merchants passing through there all the time. After the war I heard that the raid we escorted pegged a niece or nephew of the Emperor's, while attending some high brow college on the top levels of the city. At least the Emperor felt that one a little, but that's little consolation considering the loss of innocent lives.

As an aside, in the early days of June, Grola ordered a duplicate raid that called for six more of GCR's bombers to make similar attacks on Chi-Town, the crews teleporting to safety before impact. Fortunately we weren't the one's ordered to escort them this time, because I don't think I could have convinced even two of my pilots to see that again. I always found it odd that we never heard anything about the outcome of that raid. After the war we heard through the grapevine, that the bombers ordered on that sortie, made for an outpost on the Mississippi, bombed it into oblivion and flew off to points somewhere in the south. Since then I've heard rumors of Tolkeenite marked Air Castles sitting derelict in Houstown, so maybe that's where they set down.

Ultimately, while Chi-Town may pose a juicy target to the enemies of the Coalition States, you have to remember something about it. It is home to millions of people. Most have no idea of the atrocities and hatemongering that goes on outside of those protective walls. Many have never even seen a D-Bee or a display of magic. That having been said, what did they do to deserve death, or is being born on the wrong side of a wall enough to warrant their execution?

Then again those sorts of attacks have always been up to the people who make policy, not the people who fight the wars."

- Excerp from "Memoirs of a Tolkeenite Fighter Pilot", by Lt. Colonel Sir Adolf Galland, Triple Sky Knight of Tolkeen, and Commanding Officer of the 9th Royal Tolkeen Air Force Fighter Squadron (Ghost Squadron)

[Zer0 Kay]

For all we know Chitown is surrounded by some great Circle of Protection:Nuke that was put their before they went anti magic. Remember the Vanguard as well as characters like Plato were once CS.





Granted that is all total BS, but beats the writter says "cause"

Where's it say Plato is ex-CS?

i know Plato worked in the great libary at chi-town, as for being part of the CS i dont know

Ok where did it say that? Did they know he was a Dragon or was he always in human form as an Adult GH Dragon can do?

[Zer0 Kay]

bad Zero Kay bad Zero Kay bad bad bad no! no! no! how dare you do that

How dare I do what? Bring up the thread that never ends? It's save it's locked. Hey it does have a lot of usefull information hidden in all the useless comments.

[Zer0 Kay]

1) The materials needed are fairly easy to get to in a world where there isn't tight security guarding all sources.

2) Not all the people in Nagasaki or Heroshima were soldiers. Yes you would get away with it sometimes in order to remove the disease you must remove the limb.

3) All the good characters would be trying to slaughter you for the same reason that they wouldn't do that to the people of the CS. Besides it is a war.

4) They still do and there are other ways to get in, not all of them magical. Trial and error, trial and error.

5) Build a bigger one. That is only immediate blast. What about radiation?

6) You mean like how Tolkien lost the support of Cyber Knights even though they were using a ton of dark magic? Besides how do they know who did it? A good being isn't going to be going around probing everyones mind to find out who did it.

7) Who says I'd be working for Tolkien? Aside from the intial post. Actually they were shielded and there isn't anything that says that the shield wouldn't protect them from the blast.

Whoo...I really hate arguing with you Zero. So I'm not gonna bother, not this time, i'm just not really up for it today. Sorry.

Aww

[Zer0 Kay]

as a side note, No one has to like how SoT went. By the book, that's just how things went. And for whatever reason, that is how it is.

As Demos 606 said best "I don't write the books, I just try to come up with viable explinations for some of the nonsense that gets written."

[Mech-Viper Prime]

For all we know Chitown is surrounded by some great Circle of Protection:Nuke that was put their before they went anti magic. Remember the Vanguard as well as characters like Plato were once CS.





Granted that is all total BS, but beats the writter says "cause"

Where's it say Plato is ex-CS?

i know Plato worked in the great libary at chi-town, as for being part of the CS i dont know

Ok where did it say that? Did they know he was a Dragon or was he always in human form as an Adult GH Dragon can do?

give me about a day to research it

[Ed]

"Zer0 Kay Bold Mine why don't you look at the thread on that oh wait let me dredge through the freaking site for you... oh found it viewtopic.php?t=24975&highlight= Environmental sealing has NOTHING to do with it.

Page 21 BoM. Deal with it.

The spy would have to get cought first.

And trying to access even a minimum security area would almost guarante the spy being caught. Then brainwashed into giving false coordinates and released to return back to his "masters" and lure them into a trap.

So they try to evacuate the city.

Easier, and far more destructive to turn the spy. Counter-Intelligence works that way.

Clairavoiant visions usually don't tell all the details.

They don't have to. Enough advanced warning and the spy getts nabbed or the device gets captured.

Uh the spy would probalby check the area and find the best place to plant it.

All the while avoiding security sweeps, random mind probes, and security cameras. Pull the other one.

The spy wouldn't have to gain access to a minimum security area just a non-shielded populated area. What is the CS going to do without it's population, including it's soldiers.

Funny thing is, that kind of area is unlikely to produce widespread damage.

[Zer0 Kay]

"Zer0 Kay Bold Mine why don't you look at the thread on that oh wait let me dredge through the freaking site for you... oh found it viewtopic.php?t=24975&highlight= Environmental sealing has NOTHING to do with it.

Page 21 BoM. Deal with it.

The spy would have to get cought first.

And trying to access even a minimum security area would almost guarante the spy being caught. Then brainwashed into giving false coordinates and released to return back to his "masters" and lure them into a trap.

So they try to evacuate the city.

Easier, and far more destructive to turn the spy. Counter-Intelligence works that way.

Clairavoiant visions usually don't tell all the details.

They don't have to. Enough advanced warning and the spy getts nabbed or the device gets captured.

Uh the spy would probalby check the area and find the best place to plant it.

All the while avoiding security sweeps, random mind probes, and security cameras. Pull the other one.

The spy wouldn't have to gain access to a minimum security area just a non-shielded populated area. What is the CS going to do without it's population, including it's soldiers.

Funny thing is, that kind of area is unlikely to produce widespread damage.

Well since I can't afford to buy the book of buy all the rules again can you quote it as well as the sentence before and after?

[Zer0 Kay]

"Zer0 Kay Bold Mine why don't you look at the thread on that oh wait let me dredge through the freaking site for you... oh found it viewtopic.php?t=24975&highlight= Environmental sealing has NOTHING to do with it.

Page 21 BoM. Deal with it.

The spy would have to get cought first.

And trying to access even a minimum security area would almost guarante the spy being caught. Then brainwashed into giving false coordinates and released to return back to his "masters" and lure them into a trap.

So they try to evacuate the city.

Easier, and far more destructive to turn the spy. Counter-Intelligence works that way.

Clairavoiant visions usually don't tell all the details.

They don't have to. Enough advanced warning and the spy getts nabbed or the device gets captured.

Uh the spy would probalby check the area and find the best place to plant it.

All the while avoiding security sweeps, random mind probes, and security cameras. Pull the other one.

The spy wouldn't have to gain access to a minimum security area just a non-shielded populated area. What is the CS going to do without it's population, including it's soldiers.

Funny thing is, that kind of area is unlikely to produce widespread damage.

First don't need to produce wide spread damage just kill the populace. The CS isn't much if they don't have people. Second, that "advanced" warning is an UPTO limit so yeah those psyckers know it's going to happen within a given time period so as the example given before they better hope they have enough time to tell someone else and get to where ever they need to be since 10 seconds is within whatever time period is given. If your refering to minimum security as the section that is occupied by civilians then I guess so. However the spy could have his orders placed in subconsious only to be release after triggering which would take a deeper probe, which they usually aren't since they have to do everyone. How would he trigger it then you may ask. Well his consious instructions could be go to Al's Tavern to meet Jim. The trigger is the sign to Al's Tavern he sees it takes a strip of plastic out of the stiff part of his dress shirt colar and place inside his hats headband. Once in place the spys orders are fully retreived from his subconsious (the plastic piece aside from being an additional trigger is also a magic psi nullifier that also masks it's own presense. If you argue that they'd be watching closely because he's new then his consious orders would be get to Chi-Town by x day and wait until 7, 30, or 365 days later to contact Joe at Al's Tavern, in the mean time get a job.

[Qev]

And trying to access even a minimum security area would almost guarante the spy being caught. Then brainwashed into giving false coordinates and released to return back to his "masters" and lure them into a trap.

I never said anything about any level of secure area. The lowest levels of Chi-Town's fortress city are described as:

Levels 22 through level four are the homes of the lower middle class and the poor. The lower one goes, the older and shabbier the city becomes. This is the home of the city rats, cyber-clinics, bargain stores, pawnshops, and the black market. The lowest levels look almost like a sewer and are as corrupt and dangerous as the Burbs.

That pretty much describes a 'non-secure area' in my books... or do you think CS officials in charge of security would allow the black market and illegal cyberdocs to operate within secured areas?

(Say, I'm allowed to quote the sourcebook like that, aren't I?)

Again, spies are an inevitable consequence of running a nation. It's just one of those things.

Tolkeen could easily obtain (via trade) or build their own nuke. I'm sorry, they're just too simple a technology not to be duplicable (is that a word?). If they couldn't do it through normal tech, they'd just use TW. Heck, *I* could probably build a nuke, IRL, if I had the explosives and fissionables. Not a very good one (Fatman type), but still...

I like the 'open a Rift to Lazlo' alternative to my idea. Much more idealistic and less evil. That, and Toronto's a great place to have a 'we're running the hell away from the CS' party. If Babylon were still open for business, I'd buy everyone martinis!

Why hasn't the CS crushed Lazlo, anyway? They're right smack in the middle of three CS states...

[demos606]

Lazlo exists for the same reasons Tolkein doesn't anymore - that's the way Kev wants it. I wouldnt be surprised if Lazlo were where all the CS mages went after the first altercation that made the CS anti-magic.

[Qev]

It may not make much sense, but you can't read too much into it. If you do, you'll end up hating rifts for things that just can't be techniqually possible.

I know, I just like arguing for arguments' sake. It's called sophistry.

For example: Cardboard is stronger than chromium (The stuff Glitterboys are made of)...someone went out and did a whole bunch of calculations and showed cardboard rocks vs. MDC metal.

OMG seriously? HAHA, oh man, I want cardboard power armor, now! PH34R M3!! My armor is corrugated!!!

I'm not quite sure what your saying here cause i'm not into bombs and all, but by the book, MDC material will block out most radiations, and the damage is 1 or 2 D4 x100. Any bomb (even a nuke) would be localized in chi-town. At the same time, If chi-town is protected by forcefields and/or magics, then any blast damage woul still be kept to a minimum.

Well, the Tsar Bomb was the largest man-made explosion ever triggered. It was a 50MT test air-burst performed by the Soviets. I've seen footage and pictures of it... it's truly a terrifying sight. Even scarier, the technology used to create it is fairly straightforward to scale... 50MT was by no means the limit to their power. They were just too scared to actually try anything bigger. Of course, that was a thermonuclear device, I'm thinking of armor-penetrating ER weapons (aka neutron bombs).

all you'd have done is forced tolkeen to go down in history as just as horrible a monster as CS was, thereby destorying Tolkeen (Or the idea of what tolkeen was) in a way CS could have only hoped to do.

I think you overestimate peoples' ability to adhere to ideals, were this any realistic scenario ( ie. not Rifts ). People are often willing to forgive an awful lot, if it means they don't get butchered by their enemies.

[Qev]

Lazlo exists for the same reasons Tolkein doesn't anymore - that's the way Kev wants it. I wouldnt be surprised if Lazlo were where all the CS mages went after the first altercation that made the CS anti-magic.

Curse you and your pragmatism, Demos!

[Ed]

First don't need to produce wide spread damage just kill the populace. The CS isn't much if they don't have people.

And the majority of the CS population is living in a giant open-air dormitory with a place "nuclear device here" in glowing neon letters. This plan depends on an outside agent being able to penetrate Chi-town perimeter security without using magic or psionics, locate a concentration of people suitable for nuclear attack, then escape with sufficient details to allow teleportation delivery. Too many variables.

Second, that "advanced" warning is an UPTO limit so yeah those psyckers know it's going to happen within a given time period so as the example given before they better hope they have enough time to tell someone else and get to where ever they need to be since 10 seconds is within whatever time period is given.

The whole Edict of Planetary Distress adventure line is based on detailed psychic intelligence received months to years in advance. Likely psychics would provide days or weeks of advance warnings, in pretty good detail.

If your refering to minimum security as the section that is occupied by civilians then I guess so. However the spy could have his orders placed in subconsious only to be release after triggering which would take a deeper probe, which they usually aren't since they have to do everyone. How would he trigger it then you may ask. Well his consious instructions could be go to Al's Tavern to meet Jim. The trigger is the sign to Al's Tavern he sees it takes a strip of plastic out of the stiff part of his dress shirt colar and place inside his hats headband. Once in place the spys orders are fully retreived from his subconsious (the plastic piece aside from being an additional trigger is also a magic psi nullifier that also masks it's own presense. If you argue that they'd be watching closely because he's new then his consious orders would be get to Chi-Town by x day and wait until 7, 30, or 365 days later to contact Joe at Al's Tavern, in the mean time get a job.

Of course the presense of a magical item would light up every Dog-Boy and Psi-Stalker within 1000 feet. Guaranteeing the spy's capture within seconds of trying to enter Chi-Town. Go with that plan.

[Ed]

I never said anything about any level of secure area. The lowest levels of Chi-Town's fortress city are described as:

Levels 22 through level four are the homes of the lower middle class and the poor. The lower one goes, the older and shabbier the city becomes. This is the home of the city rats, cyber-clinics, bargain stores, pawnshops, and the black market. The lowest levels look almost like a sewer and are as corrupt and dangerous as the Burbs.

That pretty much describes a 'non-secure area' in my books... or do you think CS officials in charge of security would allow the black market and illegal cyberdocs to operate within secured areas?

(Say, I'm allowed to quote the sourcebook like that, aren't I?)

You might want to use the sourcebooks to read about the Chi-town entry procedures. It's that whole part about why the 'Burbs exist and how the CS doesn't let just any Tom, Dick, and Harry wander in. The spy has to get through the entry screening, then get access to the lower security under-belly.

Tolkeen could easily obtain (via trade) or build their own nuke. I'm sorry, they're just too simple a technology not to be duplicable (is that a word?). If they couldn't do it through normal tech, they'd just use TW. Heck, *I* could probably build a nuke, IRL, if I had the explosives and fissionables. Not a very good one (Fatman type), but still...

I'm glad you think so highly of your ability. Sadly, for your arguement, only the CS has a the ability to build large scale nuclear weapons. Coalition Navy.
[/quote]

[Dustin Fireblade]

And trying to access even a minimum security area would almost guarante the spy being caught. Then brainwashed into giving false coordinates and released to return back to his "masters" and lure them into a trap.

I never said anything about any level of secure area. The lowest levels of Chi-Town's fortress city are described as:

Levels 22 through level four are the homes of the lower middle class and the poor. The lower one goes, the older and shabbier the city becomes. This is the home of the city rats, cyber-clinics, bargain stores, pawnshops, and the black market. The lowest levels look almost like a sewer and are as corrupt and dangerous as the Burbs.

That pretty much describes a 'non-secure area' in my books... or do you think CS officials in charge of security would allow the black market and illegal cyberdocs to operate within secured areas?

Ok, go to the next page where it says levels 1-3 are the high security government levels. How does one get from those levels to level 4?

Also might want to check out page 206 of the original RMB, under visitor papers. (Yes there really is a Dog Pack at every city gate)

[dark brandon]

I know, I just like arguing for arguments' sake. It's called sophistry.

So do I. Actually, if I was in a better mood, i'd be all over this. At the current moment, I'm currently content with just explaining on how, as little sense as it makes.

OMG seriously? HAHA, oh man, I want cardboard power armor, now! PH34R M3!! My armor is corrugated!!!

OMG UR L337!?!?!/1oneoneelvene with your cardboard PA. U WinZ RIFtZ