Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones
Ed wrote:"Zer0 Kay Bold Minewhy don't you look at the thread on that oh wait let me dredge through the freaking site for you... oh found it viewtopic.php?t=24975&highlight= Environmental sealing has NOTHING to do with it.
Page 21 BoM. Deal with it.
Dustin Fireblade wrote:Ok, go to the next page where it says levels 1-3 are the high security government levels. How does one get from those levels to level 4?
Also might want to check out page 206 of the original RMB, under visitor papers. (Yes there really is a Dog Pack at every city gate)
Magnus wrote:Okay getting into chi town.
Question #1 Are you guys over estimating clairvoyance? Didn't Tokleen have Clairvoyance Gray seers, Mystics, dragons (Even old Yorrick)? Did it help protect them from holmes lightining raid?
demos606 wrote:The single greatest obstacle to any plan to destroy or defend chi-town is a simple lack of information. Nobody knows what permanent magical defenses the state mages put in place before they were "driven from the realm". We also don't know how much a presence the Vanguard have today, but we do know there is one. For all we know, Chi-Town is surrounded by an astral force-field or has a permanent rune preventing teleportation within the city.
grandmaster z0b wrote:demos606 wrote:The single greatest obstacle to any plan to destroy or defend chi-town is a simple lack of information. Nobody knows what permanent magical defenses the state mages put in place before they were "driven from the realm". We also don't know how much a presence the Vanguard have today, but we do know there is one. For all we know, Chi-Town is surrounded by an astral force-field or has a permanent rune preventing teleportation within the city.
Wouldn't the psi-stalkers and dogboys sniff out any magic defences in place and then try to remove them? Given the CS's fear of all things magic I think it's better to assume that they have no magic defenses than suggesting that they have some passive defense that we have never heard about or seen before that has effects that aren't in the rules and that has never been noticed or removed by the CS who are also constantly patrolling and catching magic terrorists but never notice the gigantic circle of runes that runs the perimeter of Chi Town. *pauses for breath*
demos606 wrote:That all depends on orders from the top. For all we know, the Proseks have all been members of Vanguard or had strong ties to the organization and would therefore have a vested interest in protecting any existant magical wards, if not intent to expand them. There's just too much we don't know about Chi-Town and its rules. Besides, there are inherent difficulties in destroying magics literally built into the city (and I can only guess what they might be).
Dark Brandon wrote:grandmaster z0b wrote:demos606 wrote:The single greatest obstacle to any plan to destroy or defend chi-town is a simple lack of information. Nobody knows what permanent magical defenses the state mages put in place before they were "driven from the realm". We also don't know how much a presence the Vanguard have today, but we do know there is one. For all we know, Chi-Town is surrounded by an astral force-field or has a permanent rune preventing teleportation within the city.
Wouldn't the psi-stalkers and dogboys sniff out any magic defences in place and then try to remove them? Given the CS's fear of all things magic I think it's better to assume that they have no magic defenses than suggesting that they have some passive defense that we have never heard about or seen before that has effects that aren't in the rules and that has never been noticed or removed by the CS who are also constantly patrolling and catching magic terrorists but never notice the gigantic circle of runes that runs the perimeter of Chi Town. *pauses for breath*
It may not even be magical, but force-field that is built in through the walls.
CS may have a fear of all thigns magic, but that wasn't always so. They use to have a good size magic battalion before the first war with FoM. Before then they were probably concerned about magic, but they still allowed mages to help fortify the city. Also, this type of magic defence has been seen before in another palladium book (Library of Betherad).
As for the magic circle, if it's built into the foundation of the city or perhaps even in the walls or perhaps it just a type of blessed ground/area so it's not readily noticable, and who says it even has to be circle magic.
And if psi-stalkers/dog boys were part of the CS when it did have mages, they probably worked on a way to keep a form of "passive" magic so that th dog-boys and psi-stalkers could still use their powers inside the city without having a constant magic field interfear with their powers.
Perhaps it's a combination of both force field and magic. Wouldn't that be a kicker to figure out that chi-town was built on a Nexus point (It kinda looks like a pyramid from afar) and with a type of Techno-wizardry, it drains a good deal of any PPE (Making them nearly invisible to sense, and impossible to tap into), while using that power to protect the city.
grandmaster z0b wrote:That's about as possible as saying maybe Tolkeen had invisible flying monkeys that can become intangible and have 100 megaton bombs inside them. It is possible, jsut not likely.
grandmaster z0b wrote:demos606 wrote:The single greatest obstacle to any plan to destroy or defend chi-town is a simple lack of information. Nobody knows what permanent magical defenses the state mages put in place before they were "driven from the realm". We also don't know how much a presence the Vanguard have today, but we do know there is one. For all we know, Chi-Town is surrounded by an astral force-field or has a permanent rune preventing teleportation within the city.
Wouldn't the psi-stalkers and dogboys sniff out any magic defences in place and then try to remove them? Given the CS's fear of all things magic I think it's better to assume that they have no magic defenses than suggesting that they have some passive defense that we have never heard about or seen before that has effects that aren't in the rules and that has never been noticed or removed by the CS who are also constantly patrolling and catching magic terrorists but never notice the gigantic circle of runes that runs the perimeter of Chi Town. *pauses for breath*
Dark Brandon wrote:grandmaster z0b wrote:That's about as possible as saying maybe Tolkeen had invisible flying monkeys that can become intangible and have 100 megaton bombs inside them. It is possible, just not likely.
why not?
Qev wrote:Dustin Fireblade wrote:Ok, go to the next page where it says levels 1-3 are the high security government levels. How does one get from those levels to level 4?
Also might want to check out page 206 of the original RMB, under visitor papers. (Yes there really is a Dog Pack at every city gate)
Yay! Dog Pack!
Er... ahem.
I'm assuming, by levels 1-3, they're referring to the top of that huge-ass fortress city thing they have, not the ground-level entry sections. Everyone seems to be contending that a civilian visitor from outside Chi-Town could never, ever enter even the lowest levels of Chi-Town, with any sort of credentials (forged or otherwise)? What, do they have 'SPY' branded on their forehead or something? (I'd rather have 'POOR IMPULSE CONTROL' instead, anyway...)
Dustin Fireblade wrote:No...levels 1-3 are the bottom levels. Remeber the quote you posted from the RMB? Chi-Town works like any other type of a high rise office building, ground level is level 1, level 2/floor 2 is next up, etc.
Of course, levels 1-3 are subterranean high-security levels, bunkers for the 'leet, and all that. The scenario I've cooked up pretty much requires the spy to avoid these areas. All he's interested in doing is accessing Chi-Town proper, the absolute lowest security areas. Passes to do this are available on the black market, so it shouldn't be a problem.For the civilian visitor I'm guessing you still haven't read how one goes about getting into the city. I'm not saying it's impossible, and it apparently did happen during SoT, but I am saying it's going to be extremely difficult.
But really as zob pointed out, the lack of information on Chi-Town makes this a pointless, endless argument. Course it likely would be anyway even if we had a sourcebook for every level of Chi-Town.
But if you think I'm making it hard to get into Chi-Town, you should see how hard it is getting into some of my magic and tech places like Lazlo's government building's.
grandmaster z0b wrote:Because:
a) there is no mention of any magic defenses ever being built
b) the CS hates magic, if there were any kind of defense built into chi-town surely there would be some record of it and the CS would destroy it.
c) whatever magic it is it cannot be detected by dog boys and psi-stalkers and is invisible, which would be a new kind of magic so is therefore total supposition and unlikely to exist
So it seems to me it is more likely that flying intangible nuclear monkeys exist (as all these things already exist in Rifts to some degree) than Chi-Town, the capitol of a magic hating nation that is totally paranoid about any of it's citizens even thinking about learning magic, having some secret magic defenses within it's walls that are totally undetectable to it's legions of engineers, psychics, dog boys, psi-stalkers and RSCG scientists.
It is the psi-stalkers powers of detection that keeps chi-town safe from magic attack yet somehow they cannot detect this magic that is powerful enough to protect an entire city for almost 100 years.
If there is some sort of magic that can bypass a psi-stalkers powers then I'm sure that Lazlo or Tolkeen would have had it not Chi-Town.
Ed wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:First don't need to produce wide spread damage just kill the populace. The CS isn't much if they don't have people.
And the majority of the CS population is living in a giant open-air dormitory with a place "nuclear device here" in glowing neon letters. This plan depends on an outside agent being able to penetrate Chi-town perimeter security without using magic or psionics, locate a concentration of people suitable for nuclear attack, then escape with sufficient details to allow teleportation delivery. Too many variables.Second, that "advanced" warning is an UPTO limit so yeah those psyckers know it's going to happen within a given time period so as the example given before they better hope they have enough time to tell someone else and get to where ever they need to be since 10 seconds is within whatever time period is given.
The whole Edict of Planetary Distress adventure line is based on detailed psychic intelligence received months to years in advance. Likely psychics would provide days or weeks of advance warnings, in pretty good detail.If your refering to minimum security as the section that is occupied by civilians then I guess so. However the spy could have his orders placed in subconsious only to be release after triggering which would take a deeper probe, which they usually aren't since they have to do everyone. How would he trigger it then you may ask. Well his consious instructions could be go to Al's Tavern to meet Jim. The trigger is the sign to Al's Tavern he sees it takes a strip of plastic out of the stiff part of his dress shirt colar and place inside his hats headband. Once in place the spys orders are fully retreived from his subconsious (the plastic piece aside from being an additional trigger is also a magic psi nullifier that also masks it's own presense. If you argue that they'd be watching closely because he's new then his consious orders would be get to Chi-Town by x day and wait until 7, 30, or 365 days later to contact Joe at Al's Tavern, in the mean time get a job.
Of course the presense of a magical item would light up every Dog-Boy and Psi-Stalker within 1000 feet. Guaranteeing the spy's capture within seconds of trying to enter Chi-Town. Go with that plan.
you some might think you're a 
but you're cool in book 
--Mecha-Viper [/quote]Ed wrote:Qev wrote:I never said anything about any level of secure area. The lowest levels of Chi-Town's fortress city are described as:Rifts Core Rules, page 140 wrote:Levels 22 through level four are the homes of the lower middle class and the poor. The lower one goes, the older and shabbier the city becomes. This is the home of the city rats, cyber-clinics, bargain stores, pawnshops, and the black market. The lowest levels look almost like a sewer and are as corrupt and dangerous as the Burbs.
That pretty much describes a 'non-secure area' in my books... or do you think CS officials in charge of security would allow the black market and illegal cyberdocs to operate within secured areas?
(Say, I'm allowed to quote the sourcebook like that, aren't I?)
You might want to use the sourcebooks to read about the Chi-town entry procedures. It's that whole part about why the 'Burbs exist and how the CS doesn't let just any Tom, Dick, and Harry wander in. The spy has to get through the entry screening, then get access to the lower security under-belly.Tolkeen could easily obtain (via trade) or build their own nuke. I'm sorry, they're just too simple a technology not to be duplicable (is that a word?). If they couldn't do it through normal tech, they'd just use TW. Heck, *I* could probably build a nuke, IRL, if I had the explosives and fissionables. Not a very good one (Fatman type), but still...
I'm glad you think so highly of your ability. Sadly, for your arguement, only the CS has a the ability to build large scale nuclear weapons. Coalition Navy.
you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper Dustin Fireblade wrote:Qev wrote:Ed wrote:And trying to access even a minimum security area would almost guarante the spy being caught. Then brainwashed into giving false coordinates and released to return back to his "masters" and lure them into a trap.
I never said anything about any level of secure area. The lowest levels of Chi-Town's fortress city are described as:Rifts Core Rules, page 140 wrote:Levels 22 through level four are the homes of the lower middle class and the poor. The lower one goes, the older and shabbier the city becomes. This is the home of the city rats, cyber-clinics, bargain stores, pawnshops, and the black market. The lowest levels look almost like a sewer and are as corrupt and dangerous as the Burbs.
That pretty much describes a 'non-secure area' in my books... or do you think CS officials in charge of security would allow the black market and illegal cyberdocs to operate within secured areas?
Ok, go to the next page where it says levels 1-3 are the high security government levels. How does one get from those levels to level 4?
Also might want to check out page 206 of the original RMB, under visitor papers. (Yes there really is a Dog Pack at every city gate)
you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper March Hare wrote:pbbbt. have you read the nuke stats? they couldn't blow up a broom closet! (unless they revised the stats since gm guide)
well I guess if you just want to take out the janitor and the brooms and mops your set then you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper Dark Brandon wrote:Qev wrote:I know, I just like arguing for arguments' sake. It's called sophistry.
So do I. Actually, if I was in a better mood, i'd be all over this. At the current moment, I'm currently content with just explaining on how, as little sense as it makes.OMG seriously? HAHA, oh man, I want cardboard power armor, now! PH34R M3!! My armor is corrugated!!!
OMG UR L337!?!?!/1oneoneelvene with your cardboard PA. U WinZ RIFtZ
you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper Killer Cyborg wrote:Ed wrote:"Zer0 Kay Bold Mine
Page 21 BoM. Deal with it.
Read the topic.
If you come up with anything that hasn't been dealt with there, let us know with a specific quote.
But you won't.
you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper demos606 wrote:That all depends on orders from the top. For all we know, the Proseks have all been members of Vanguard or had strong ties to the organization and would therefore have a vested interest in protecting any existant magical wards, if not intent to expand them. There's just too much we don't know about Chi-Town and its rules. Besides, there are inherent difficulties in destroying magics literally built into the city (and I can only guess what they might be).
you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper Dark Brandon wrote:grandmaster z0b wrote:demos606 wrote:The single greatest obstacle to any plan to destroy or defend chi-town is a simple lack of information. Nobody knows what permanent magical defenses the state mages put in place before they were "driven from the realm". We also don't know how much a presence the Vanguard have today, but we do know there is one. For all we know, Chi-Town is surrounded by an astral force-field or has a permanent rune preventing teleportation within the city.
Wouldn't the psi-stalkers and dogboys sniff out any magic defences in place and then try to remove them? Given the CS's fear of all things magic I think it's better to assume that they have no magic defenses than suggesting that they have some passive defense that we have never heard about or seen before that has effects that aren't in the rules and that has never been noticed or removed by the CS who are also constantly patrolling and catching magic terrorists but never notice the gigantic circle of runes that runs the perimeter of Chi Town. *pauses for breath*
It may not even be magical, but force-field that is built in through the walls.
CS may have a fear of all thigns magic, but that wasn't always so. They use to have a good size magic battalion before the first war with FoM. Before then they were probably concerned about magic, but they still allowed mages to help fortify the city. Also, this type of magic defence has been seen before in another palladium book (Library of Betherad).
As for the magic circle, if it's built into the foundation of the city or perhaps even in the walls or perhaps it just a type of blessed ground/area so it's not readily noticable, and who says it even has to be circle magic.
And if psi-stalkers/dog boys were part of the CS when it did have mages, they probably worked on a way to keep a form of "passive" magic so that th dog-boys and psi-stalkers could still use their powers inside the city without having a constant magic field interfear with their powers.
Perhaps it's a combination of both force field and magic. Wouldn't that be a kicker to figure out that chi-town was built on a Nexus point (It kinda looks like a pyramid from afar) and with a type of Techno-wizardry, it drains a good deal of any PPE (Making them nearly invisible to sense, and impossible to tap into), while using that power to protect the city.
you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-ViperZer0 Kay wrote:Ed, Ed, Ed... First yes it does depend on a person getting into the city but once in an ER bomb can penetrate physical barriers with it's radiation.
Second, were the heck to you get this Edict of Planetary Distress thing? If you look at the best oracle printed in Rifts so far it would be the one in Rifts Underseas about the Lord of the Deep. Just try and tell me that, that is specific. A psionicist doesn't get to pick his vision and they don't happen continuously. Even if they do have ones that seem simular they may be refering to different events in the same place adding to the conglomerate visions inacuracy.
Yeah it would... however alter aura cast on it would allow it to mimic a low PPE emination which wouldn't worry the dog boys because as every psi-stalker knows EVERY ONE has PPE! So a low level of PPE emination from a magic item would pique a dog boy or a psy-stalkers interest. If you don't agree with the alter aura I'm sure there is a spell that does do it.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Ed wrote:"Zer0 Kay Bold Mine
Page 21 BoM. Deal with it.
Read the topic.
If you come up with anything that hasn't been dealt with there, let us know with a specific quote.
But you won't.
Qev wrote:Dustin Fireblade wrote:No...levels 1-3 are the bottom levels. Remeber the quote you posted from the RMB? Chi-Town works like any other type of a high rise office building, ground level is level 1, level 2/floor 2 is next up, etc.
Why... you're absolutely correct! I guess I had that bass-ackwards.For the civilian visitor I'm guessing you still haven't read how one goes about getting into the city. I'm not saying it's impossible, and it apparently did happen during SoT, but I am saying it's going to be extremely difficult.
Why difficult? The book pretty much explains the process. Heck, just show up with a two hour courier pass, with some BS delivery run to someone in the city. If the (non-CS) player characters can get into Chi-Town, so can my spy.
grandmaster z0b wrote:Ed (and others), you seem to think that it's impossible to get any sort of spy into any part of Chi-Town, that's ridiculous. There are always spies in cities, no matter how tight the security, it's like saying there would never be any terrorists in a US city, it would be nice but it's just not possible.
Secondly they don't have to physically enter the city they simply have to fly through it using Astral projection at Mach 1, or a psi-ghost, or a infiltrator automaton. Someone want to explain how the CS defends against astral recon?
I'm not saying the CS cannot defend against one or two people trying this, but the truth is that eventually that one of these would work.
If nothing else the magic terrorists could just kidnap someone who has been into Chi-Town at least once and then mind-bond that person.
Zer0 Kay wrote:Dustin Fireblade wrote:Qev wrote:Ed wrote:And trying to access even a minimum security area would almost guarante the spy being caught. Then brainwashed into giving false coordinates and released to return back to his "masters" and lure them into a trap.
I never said anything about any level of secure area. The lowest levels of Chi-Town's fortress city are described as:Rifts Core Rules, page 140 wrote:Levels 22 through level four are the homes of the lower middle class and the poor. The lower one goes, the older and shabbier the city becomes. This is the home of the city rats, cyber-clinics, bargain stores, pawnshops, and the black market. The lowest levels look almost like a sewer and are as corrupt and dangerous as the Burbs.
That pretty much describes a 'non-secure area' in my books... or do you think CS officials in charge of security would allow the black market and illegal cyberdocs to operate within secured areas?
Ok, go to the next page where it says levels 1-3 are the high security government levels. How does one get from those levels to level 4?
Also might want to check out page 206 of the original RMB, under visitor papers. (Yes there really is a Dog Pack at every city gate)
Yeah it's there standard dog back not the nutset so they wouldn't be able to probe someones mind. BTW what is your point about 1-3 high sec and level 4?
Ed wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Ed wrote:"Zer0 Kay Bold Mine
Page 21 BoM. Deal with it.
Read the topic.
If you come up with anything that hasn't been dealt with there, let us know with a specific quote.
But you won't.
I read the thing when it was originally posted. Bottom line was it came back to GMs fiat. If that's the crux of your arguement, don't bother bringing it up.
Ed wrote:Ever hear of Psi-Bat? 4000+ trained psi-operatives stationed in Chi-town? Plenty of astral and anti-magic defense available on a daily basis, not to mention additional troops that could be called up in the event of need.
I have to disagree with you on this one, demos.demos606 wrote:The single greatest obstacle to any plan to destroy or defend chi-town is a simple lack of information. Nobody knows what permanent magical defenses the state mages put in place before they were "driven from the realm". We also don't know how much a presence the Vanguard have today, but we do know there is one. For all we know, Chi-Town is surrounded by an astral force-field or has a permanent rune preventing teleportation within the city.
Ed wrote:If I remember my ERW training, one the the best defenses is two feet of dirt. MDC materials are high strength ceramics. Ceramics are your basic dirt, mixed with some trace elements and baked at high temperatures. Why do you assume an ERW would do anything but make a loud noise?
At what range were they talking about? Neutron bombs do have a fairly limited kill-range, no more than about 700-1000m in terms of prompt neutron-radiation kill, but it's designed to penetrate the DU armor of modern battle tanks, IIRC. Sounds like you might have more 'official' knowledge of these devices than I do. 
Dustin Fireblade wrote:For the passes, anyone entering the city is photographed, fingerprinted and I'm pretty sure the CS would have a pretty good system to scan incoming packages, in addition to the Dog Packs sniffing everything over.
Btw how do you think one get's a courier pass in the first place?
I assume the spy would get the ID on the black market, or even get it through official channels, perhaps getting themself hired onto a courier company for the purposes of the mission. rem1093 wrote:First i wouldn't' use just one attack. i would use enities to distract everybody wile several natural teleporters pop in different areas with antimatter TW bombs. mass damage but spreading smaller devices over larger area.
RainOfSteel wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.
Winter wrote:One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while
Zylo wrote:Until they detail Chi-Town and the defenses it's all just a guessing game anyway. When that book comes out, if we're still alive and gaming, then we can discuss the destruction of Chi-Town and the CS.
RainOfSteel wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.
Winter wrote:One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while
RockJock wrote:For all we know Chitown is surrounded by some great Circle of Protection:Nuke that was put their before they went anti magic. Remember the Vanguard as well as characters like Plato were once CS.
Granted that is all total BS, but beats the writter says "cause"
RainOfSteel wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.
Winter wrote:One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while
Toc Rat wrote:Like the man (cornholio) said, just read his sig and you understand why the Coalition continues to exist. Call it writter fiat, call it poor writting, the hand of God (KS), call it whatever, it all boils down to the same thing. The Coalition stays alive because that's what it says in the script
Dark Brandon wrote:
Open a rift to lazlo. Everyone goes through. Now no one dies, no war, and best of all, the MEANING of what Tolkeen was isn't lost. Tolkeen was a place of learning. Tolkeen was destoryed long before the missles of the CS burned their cities to the ground when they forgot what it ment to be "tolkeen".
Strange as this sounds, it's actually true. Tolkeen use to be this grand place, where Techno-wizards were cool, and learning was great...then they fell into war.
RainOfSteel wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.
Winter wrote:One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while
Killer Cyborg wrote:Toc Rat wrote:Like the man (cornholio) said, just read his sig and you understand why the Coalition continues to exist. Call it writter fiat, call it poor writting, the hand of God (KS), call it whatever, it all boils down to the same thing. The Coalition stays alive because that's what it says in the script
1. Everything in Rifts happens because the writers want it to.
2. Somehow, the United States is still standing in the real world. Somehow, there has not been a decent terrorist attack in our country since 9/11, in spite of all the zillions of fanatics who want to hurt us.
I get the feeling that if the real world were a game, everybody would be griping about that, claiming that the writers were the only thing keeping us alive.
I mean, realistically somebody would have just smuggled a suitcase nuke into our country by now and blown up the white house. Or Manhattan. Or both. Or somebody would have run amok through the heartland torching crops. Or any of the dozens of other "realistic" plans that I can think of.
Yet they haven't, not successfully.
Because things aren't always as simple as they seem.
RainOfSteel wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.
Winter wrote:One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while
Toc Rat wrote:Ahh, the "Running away solves all your problems" message again my old foe? We already went over that.
Dark Brandon wrote:Toc Rat wrote:Ahh, the "Running away solves all your problems" message again my old foe? We already went over that.
How is does that saying go
"Don't fight only battles you can win, just fight the battles you need to"
RainOfSteel wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.
Winter wrote:One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while
Toc Rat wrote:I would call it a "need" to defend my homeland but then again maybe that's just me. I joined the service after all so perhaps I am biased in my estimation of "need".
Toc Rat wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Toc Rat wrote:Like the man (cornholio) said, just read his sig and you understand why the Coalition continues to exist. Call it writter fiat, call it poor writting, the hand of God (KS), call it whatever, it all boils down to the same thing. The Coalition stays alive because that's what it says in the script
1. Everything in Rifts happens because the writers want it to.
2. Somehow, the United States is still standing in the real world. Somehow, there has not been a decent terrorist attack in our country since 9/11, in spite of all the zillions of fanatics who want to hurt us.
I get the feeling that if the real world were a game, everybody would be griping about that, claiming that the writers were the only thing keeping us alive.
I mean, realistically somebody would have just smuggled a suitcase nuke into our country by now and blown up the white house. Or Manhattan. Or both. Or somebody would have run amok through the heartland torching crops. Or any of the dozens of other "realistic" plans that I can think of.
Yet they haven't, not successfully.
Because things aren't always as simple as they seem.
Wow, that has nothing to do with the current situation. This is about a G A M E with know capabilities and characters. Given the parameters, we should be able to predict a logical out come. That is not the case with Rifts. Instead of 1+1=2 we get 1+1=-4.
Using the ambiguities of the real world has nothing to do with the certainties involved in the game.
Besides, how do you know that terrorists don't have dirty bombs right now inside the US or spain or britain? To use your analogy, we can still point to the continued peaceful existence of Chi-Town as a 100% impossibility. With the number of mages and other people they have stepped on over the decades, someone should have made a successful attack by now. That there has been no such case in the books only goes to prove that they are protected by the "hand of god" as cornholio calls it. By your scenario, at least one of the Tolkeen remaints should have successfully hit Chi-Town by now with a "9/11" style attack.
Dark Brandon wrote:Toc Rat wrote:I would call it a "need" to defend my homeland but then again maybe that's just me. I joined the service after all so perhaps I am biased in my estimation of "need".
You join to defend the homeland and end up putting ciggarett lighters in tanks.
Could have been worse, you could have been stuck inside a tank with a smoker and you not be a smoker.
RainOfSteel wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.
Winter wrote:One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while
Killer Cyborg wrote:The Federation of Magic has made numerous hits on Chi-Town and the CS in the past. And I know of no place in the books saying that there are NO successful terrorist attacks on the CS.
Something the equivilant of 9/11 hasn't happend in a LONG time because the CS is more on guard than our government and they operate on a different scale of power. There aren't any weapons lying around that are as devastating to their city as a fully-fueled jet-liner or two was to New York.
Note that everybody's plans for attacking Chi-town involves using weapons that nobody really has. Home-ruled TW devices of doom, or ICMB class nukes, or whatever.
Mages probably have teleported in bombs into Chi-town in the past, but they're the same type of bombs that Rifts are restricted to; the wimply variety that the CS and every other military is pretty much restricted to.
They probably blew up some downsiders in the lower levels and didn't really do much.
RainOfSteel wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.
Winter wrote:One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"
Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
