Thoughts on a damage reduction system instead of MDC

[Qev]

I was just thinking about this, for the heck of it, and came up with two (and a half) different ways of implementing such a thing. Both, of course, would require a lot of converting.

One: In order to damage an armored target, you would need to do enough damage in one shot to exceed the target's damage reduction value. All damage done in excess of the targets DR value is subtracted from its SDC. This leads to armored units having relatively high DR and SDC values both. A variant of this (one-and-a-half), if the damage exceeds the DR value, then all damage done is applied to the target's SDC (leading to even higher SDC values for tough things).

Two: In order to damage an armored target, you would need to do enough damage in one shot to exceed the target's damage reduction value. For every whole multiple of the DR value that is done to the target, it takes 1 SDC of damage. This leads to armored units having relatively low DR and SDC values both.

The first leads to simple subtraction, and big messy numbers. The second leads to somewhat unpleasant division, but nice tidy small numbers. Any thoughts?

[Grand Paladin]

Hey Qev, I have made up a tier-based SDC system for replacing Mega-Damage in the Rifts setting.

Unfortunately, I'm at work, and don't have access to that file right now. But it incorporates/addresses magic, psionics, and the different strength levels as they appear in Rifts- ie- 'normal' PS, Augmented PS, Robotic, and Supernatural.

I can post it later this evening.

[RockJock]

I think there are posibilities in something like this, I doubt it would ever be made official.

Have you thought of doing something more along the lines of SDC and AR? Having materials that are currently MDC having something like Natural AR of various degrees?

[Grand Paladin]

It is an SDC replacement system. And honestly I didn't consider having Natural AR's for Mega Damage materials. It's a combination of the SDC conversion optional rules from Conversion Book 1 (rev).

[Nxla666]

*checking behind me*

The Battlelords game had a similar system, basically the armor was given a threshold rating of (X) and any damage rolled is reduced by this number, dont beat that number no damage.

example, armor threshold:7 , damage roll: 12=5 points of damage, damage roll:7=no damage done.

[Kalinda]

I don't know if you've ever played GURPS Qev, but it's system is very much like your first suggestion. DR which must be punched through in order to take off hit points. It works pretty darn well and meshes nicely with their damage system.

GURPS also has extensive rules for building mecha and vehicles, so in theory you could convert everything from Rifts to that system.

In theory...

[Qev]

I don't know if you've ever played GURPS Qev, but it's system is very much like your first suggestion. DR which must be punched through in order to take off hit points. It works pretty darn well and meshes nicely with their damage system.

GURPS also has extensive rules for building mecha and vehicles, so in theory you could convert everything from Rifts to that system.

In theory...

Oooh, I vaguely remember GURPs... it's been so long since I've seen it; I'm pretty certain I've only played one game in that system. I haven't roleplayed much in the past few years. Trying to correct that! I'm also trying to remember how the Hero system did this stuff...

Hmm... maybe I'll have to OCR all these Rifts books and then write a program to convert everything automatically to another system. Er... maybe not.

Re: Armor Ratings...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Armor Rating rely on the strike role beating a set value, instead of relying on the amount of damage done? That gets kind of odd, because in order for that to work, anti-armor weapons would have to get massive to-strike bonuses in order to function, instead of just doing scads of damage. That's why I like damage reduction systems... unless you're throwing something big enough, you're just not going to hurt an armored target.

I suppose one could just use the Conversion Book rules, convert all damages to SDC, then implement DR values that're high enough to exclude 'normal' SDC weapons from harming armored vehicles.

Say... why do MD weapons have MDC? It's not like I could block a 5.56mm round by interposing my 5.56mm assault rifle... it'd just go right through it.

[Thinyser]

my buddy is rewriting the game "Waste World" and has done something similar..

The armor has an AR which is how much damage it absorbs, this amount is subtracted from the SDC...the rest of the damage is passed on to the wearer. As the armor is damaged (SDC is depleated) the armor's AR is lowered thus absorbing less damage

I haven played with him in a long time but as a rough example a suit of armor may have an AR of 12 and SDC of 120.
A shot from a rifle does 14 points of damage 12 is absorbed from the SDC and 2 go to the person underneath armor now has 108 SDC and an AR of 11 (this armor has 1 AR for each 10 SDC round up)
next shot does 5 points of damage all is absorbed by the SDC and it now has 103 and an AR of 11 still.
A grenade comes in and does 24 points of damage 11 is absorbed by the SDC and 13 goes to the wearer (total of 15 points to the wearer now). The armor now has 92 SDC and AR 10.

By varying the AR to SDC ratio there are stronger and weaker armors

Say the above hapens with an armor with AR 24 and SDC 120 (2 AR for ever 10 SDC)
first shot is 14 points all abosrbed SDC is 106 AR is 22
second shot 5 all abosrbed SDC is 101 AR is 22 still
Grenade for 24, 22 absorbed, 2 to the wearer, SDC is 89 AR is 18

confusing kinda but fun to play.

[Qev]

Interesting systems, Thinyser and THW! Mind if I copy and paste all that into my house rules notebook?

I'd probably change a few things, myself, such as burst damage rules requiring separate damage roles per multiplier (since a burst is technically multiple hits by smaller rounds, not one hit by a gignormous round); I'm still not certain how I'd like to mesh it with SDC though. Great idea on the 'armor piercing' thing, I hadn't thought of that.

[Dead Boy]

One: In order to damage an armored target, you would need to do enough damage in one shot to exceed the target's damage reduction value. All damage done in excess of the targets DR value is subtracted from its SDC. This leads to armored units having relatively high DR and SDC values both. A variant of this (one-and-a-half), if the damage exceeds the DR value, then all damage done is applied to the target's SDC (leading to even higher SDC values for tough things).

They actually have something that 99% the same in the Hero System (Champions, Star Hero, Fantasy Hero...). You might want to check them out. I find that a dash of Hero System on top of Palladium make for a great system, and vice versa as well.

Two: In order to damage an armored target, you would need to do enough damage in one shot to exceed the target's damage reduction value. For every whole multiple of the DR value that is done to the target, it takes 1 SDC of damage. This leads to armored units having relatively low DR and SDC values both.

Congratulations! Version two here is actually fairly original! It requires a little math (potentially slowing down the game some) but it's not a bad thought at all. It'd take a little work to figure out what DR levels would be ideal for each case in general and from case to case, but it bears looking into.

Hey Qev, I have made up a tier-based SDC system for replacing Mega-Damage in the Rifts setting.

Unfortunately, I'm at work, and don't have access to that file right now. But it incorporates/addresses magic, psionics, and the different strength levels as they appear in Rifts- ie- 'normal' PS, Augmented PS, Robotic, and Supernatural.

I can post it later this evening.

I made something like that. Let me do a little Cut & Past from one on my Hose Rules files and share what I have. Feel free to play around with the idea, or completely disregard, as you deem fit.

The Three Tiered KDC System

Normal Palladium rules use two levels of damage, them being SDC and MDC. In the Three-Tiered system there is a third imposed between them called KDC, (short for Kilo Damage Capacity). KDC armor and KD weapons fall between the two extremes of SDC and MDC using a 10:1 damage ratio v SDC and a 1:10 damage ratio v MDC. Being the middle value of protection and damage, its main place is on the individual level of high-tech small arms, all body armor, light to medium power armor (with "heavy PA" being defined as being so big they require fully mechanical arms and legs), and small/light vehicles (car-sized or smaller). As it relates to the paranormal, only true creatures of magic (like dragons) and those that have supernatural Physical Endurance get to keep their MDC standing. All others are demoted to KDC. This also reflects on the level of damage they inflict by SN Strength and special attacks. No points or die values are changed when converting from MDC to KDC, nor are any ratios applied. For example: a suit of Explorer EBA that had 80 MDC now has 80 KDC.

When using SDC weapons against KDC constructs or beings, they inflict only a tenth (1/10th) their rolled damage. And against MDC constructs or creatures, SDC does absolutely nothing, (with the possible exception of really big explosions as before). KD level attacks do ten times (X10) the rolled damage against SDC targets, but only a tenth (1/10th) against MDC ones. MD attacks do the previously normal times one-hundred (X100) against SDC, but only times ten (X10) v KDC level resistance. This makes it possible for a guy with a rusting AK-47 to have a chance against an opponent in advanced EBA, but makes heavy armor like Glitter Boys and Abolishers immune to SDC fire. It also solves the age-old problem of vehicle weapons being too under-powered. Note: All missiles and explosives are
mega-damage.

As for Magic and Psychic Powers, due to the magic rich environment of Rifts Earth, all their effects are at the Mega Damage tier. Mechanically speaking, this greatly off-sets the low number of attacks (casting speed) for Magic, and off-sets the low damage levels ascribed to Psionics.

[Qev]

Two: In order to damage an armored target, you would need to do enough damage in one shot to exceed the target's damage reduction value. For every whole multiple of the DR value that is done to the target, it takes 1 SDC of damage. This leads to armored units having relatively low DR and SDC values both.

Congratulations! Version two here is actually fairly original! It requires a little math (potentially slowing down the game some) but it's not a bad thought at all. It'd take a little work to figure out what DR levels would be ideal for each case in general and from case to case, but it bears looking into.

Hehe, thanks! Yeah, that'd take a bit of tweaking. Probably what I'd do in that case is change the damage disparity between SD and MD to 10x instead of 100x, but I'd still have to figure out new armor values for everything, ehehe.

What I'll probably do is go with my first idea, AND change the MD/SD ratio to 10 instead of 100. Makes for really easy math (gawd I'm lazy), gets rid of MD, and makes SD weapons ineffective against heavy armor.

The KDC concept isn't one I would've thought of, actually! Though, I'm trying to reduce everything to one damage system, not add a third tier!

Thank you, also, for your thoughts on this!

[Grand Paladin]

Well here's my stab at an effective MDC to SDC conversion rules-set.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Modified S.D.C. / A.R. Rules for Rifts RPG
By Peter Porcaro, Jr. aka: Grand Paladin

For Armor Ratings on Rifts Equipment, use the rules presented in Rifts Conversion Book One (Rev).

The following is a custom rule modification for Rifts, using the standard Palladium S.D.C. damage system instead of the Mega Damage system. These rules were developed after reading multiple threads on the Palladium Message Boards. Many, many individuals are unhappy with the M.D.C. rules, and want a damage system where high technology, the supernatural, psychic powers, and formidable magic would be accurately represented and make sense. No longer are unarmored player characters susceptible to instant death in the face of the Mega Damage level weapons. However, as Rifts Earth is a place where ultra-science and supernatural powers abound, the unarmored player character is in extreme danger when facing energy weapons, rail guns, supernatural physical attacks, magic spells or psionic powers.

All existing statistics for Rifts remain the same- no changes. A “classic” Coalition SAMAS still has 250 Main Body points of armor, and a Wilks Laser pistol still inflicts 1D6 damage.

Tiers have been included to determine the differential amounts of damage an object can withstand, or inflict by various means. For example; a medieval sword (which would be a Tier 1 weapon) will be incapable of causing serious structural damage to a Coalition UAR-1 enforcer robot vehicle (a Tier 3 object/vehicle). The sword- a 2D6 S.D.C. weapon would have damage inflicted reduced by 75% when used against the UAR-1 Enforcer. Damage range in this scenario would be 1/2 SDC- no damage, to 3 points S.D.C. maximum.

The Tiers:
Tier 1: All ancient weapons and armor. Most conventional (20th & early 21st Century) commercial grade weapons and armor. Most military grade weapons- tanks, aircraft and armor, will not fall into Tier 1. Human beings and all other S.D.C. D-Bees fall under the Tier 1 category. Most cybernetic systems and replacement limbs fall into this category.
Explosives/Missiles:
Blackpowder, dynamite, plastique, “modern”- (20th, 21st Century) C4, CENTEX, and equivalents.

Tier 2: All “modern” (20th & early 21st Century) military vehicles and weapons systems. Most Rifts body armor and energy hand weapons designed for antipersonnel/light assault, such as lasers and ion weapons, and human sized vibro blades. All Rifts one to two person vehicles, light exoskeletons, and most power armor units. Most minor Mega-Damage creatures and minor demons, low M.D.C. D-Bees, and creatures of magic.
Explosives/Missiles:
All mini-missiles, light antipersonnel landmines, light fusion blocks, and grenades.

Tier 3: All Rifts robotics, heavy power armor units, tanks, APC’s, combat ‘Borgs, fightercraft (air/space), most major demons, demon lords, supernatural creatures, dragons (hatchling and adult), godlings, and demigods. All heavy energy weapons, such as plasma ejectors, particle beams, and rail guns, as well as robot/giant sized vibro-weapons.
Explosives/Missiles:
All short and medium range missiles, medium yield landmines, medium fusion blocks, and light warheads made from Killarite..

Tier 4: The largest of combat vehicles such as mobile fortresses, naval vessels, starship sized vessels, and the weapons systems associated with them. This Tier encompasses the most powerful of supernatural beings, such as alien intelligences, gods, and ancient dragons.
Explosives/Missiles:
All long range and cruise missiles, heavy yield landmines, heavy fusion blocks, and medium to heavy warheads made from Killarite.

Damage Modification Table

Tier 1: No damage modification to other Tier 1 structure/creatures;
Divide damage by 2 for Tier 2 structures/creatures;
Divide damage by 4 for Tier 3 structures/creatures;
No damage inflicted to Tier 4 structures/creatures

Tier 2: No damage modification to other Tier 2 structure/creatures;
Multiply damage by 2 for Tier 1 structures/creatures;
Divide damage by 2 for Tier 3 structures/creatures;
Divide damage by 4 for Tier 4 structures/creatures

Tier 3: No damage modification to other Tier 3 structure/creatures;
Multiply damage by 4 for Tier 1 structures/creatures;
Multiply damage by 2 for Tier 2 structures/creatures;
Divide damage by 2 for Tier 4 structures/creatures

Tier 4: No damage modification to other Tier 4 structure/creatures;
Multiply damage by 10 for Tier 1 structures/creatures;
Multiply damage by 4 for Tier 2 structures/creatures;
Multiply damage by 2 for Tier 3 structures/creatures

Force fields created by advanced technology are the equivalent to Tier 4 structures.

Magic and Psionic Powers:

Magical spells or psionic powers that create a physical or energy barrier, or attacks that create a physical or energy component to inflict damage, are equivalent to Tier 4 structures or attacks.
Magical or psionic effects without a physical or energy component, will deal damage directly to a target’s H.P./S.D.C. The nature of the magic/psychic power conforms to the Tier level of the target.

Physical Strength as it applies to Tier Based Damage Modification:

I have retained the four levels of physical strengths, as it appears in the Rifts Game Masters Guide, it fits into the Tier system of damage modification quite snugly. The only minor change has been the application of damage for the different strength levels. No longer are there multiple damage ratings based on a P.S. attribute number, within a strength level. All hand to hand damage now has a base damage that is modified by any damage bonuses, for their respective Tier level.

Human (and equivalent) P.S.: Equal to Tier 1 attacks damage: 1D6+P.S. bonus
Augmented P.S.: Equal to Tier 2 attack damage: 2D6+P.S. bonus
Robotic P.S.: Equal to Tier 3 attack damage: 3D6+P.S. bonus
Supernatural P.S.: Equal to Tier 4 attack damage: 4D6+P.S. bonus

[Dead Boy]

The KDC concept isn't one I would've thought of, actually! Though, I'm trying to reduce everything to one damage system, not add a third tier!

Thank you, also, for your thoughts on this!

Well the though behind the KDC concept was to bring the troops and power armor down to the level of where Joe Blow and his trusty .45 had a chance in hell, but also keep the idea of bots, heavy PA, and heavy armor being imposing and something Joe Blow and his trusty .45 had best run for his life from. The last thing you want is to nerf things so bad that Cub Scout Troop 296 can take out a Main Battle Tank with their pocket knives. Because if the thing is SDC, and eve if it gets an hefty damage negating Armor Rating, the Scouts can still overwhelm the tank. Try to avoid that prospect. It's cheesy as hell and all too possible with straight SDC.

[Thinyser]

The KDC concept isn't one I would've thought of, actually! Though, I'm trying to reduce everything to one damage system, not add a third tier!

Thank you, also, for your thoughts on this!

Well the though behind the KDC concept was to bring the troops and power armor down to the level of where Joe Blow and his trusty .45 had a chance in hell, but also keep the idea of bots, heavy PA, and heavy armor being imposing and something Joe Blow and his trusty .45 had best run for his life from. The last thing you want is to nerf things so bad that Cub Scout Troop 296 can take out a Main Battle Tank with their pocket knives. Because if the thing is SDC, and eve if it gets an hefty damage negating Armor Rating, the Scouts can still overwhelm the tank. Try to avoid that prospect. It's cheesy as hell and all too possible with straight SDC.

Agreed there needs to be some sort of distinction here and your 3 tier system does acount for that.

[Jefffar]

I've worked with some home brewed alternate damage systems and damage reduction systems for Palladium for a few years. They almost all generally improve the playability.