Would you still buy Chaos Earth source material?

[Jason Richards]

This is sort of a poll, but I don't want to totally restrict it. So, your elaboration is appreciated.

Given some of the heated opinions on this material expressed here recently, I am curious to see what fans want. The question is whether or not you're in the market. That is, would you consider buying new material?

So, if a good book came out and you would consider buying it... that's a "yes". If you won't buy it no matter what, that's a "no". If your answer is something like "Only if they release Psychic Storm first" or "Only if it's really cheap" or something like that, your answer is "conditionally".

Just trying to find out what the word is on the street. This is just me asking... not associated with Palladium in any way.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I will likely get Psychic Storm if it is released, but what I'd really like to see is stuff on the Golden Age, both civilian and military.

[maasenstodt]

Good question.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I wrote some (that was published in the Rifter), so what do you think?

[Sentinel]

Yes, I would like to see more stuff in support of Chaos Earth.
I would want additional source material to be fully useable with the rest of the Megaverse. I would want it to have been cheched for technical writing accuracy, and to be free of editing mistakes. I would want it to be more than a catalog of toys that will one day be CS Toys that we see in Rifts.
I would want it to not suffer from power creep, but actually introduce to concept of Power Decline: as mankind falls further into the decline, so too should weapons and armour suffer, and get less powerful from book to book.

[Natalya]

I'd like a bit of continuity. The Rifts Conversion book does say that the BtS world is the one that leads to Rifts; therefore, there should be some fully-trained arcanists and psychics hanging around out there. What's going on wouldn't be a complete shock to everyone; something that includes these "master scholars" or something should be added, and there should be additional spells that are more standardized.

[Sentinel]

I'd like a bit of continuity.

I'd like a lot of continuity.
From Tattoo Magic, to the Usurper of VU, to Victor Lazlo, and every other reference, let's go ahead and make this a solid Megaverse.

[Spectre92]

Not sure if it counts, but I'd like to see a book on how chaos earth was presented in rifter 7. I just reread it and it seems more interesting to me
than the one they printed.

[Warwolf]

Not sure if it counts, but I'd like to see a book on how chaos earth was presented in rifter 7. I just reread it and it seems more interesting to me than the one they printed.

It has been stated that the original concept was changed because KS felt it worked better as Rifts history. Thus, I think that is one wish that won't be coming true.

[Jason Richards]

For the record, I think it works better as Rifts history as well. It gives Rifts players a sense of "being there" at a crucial moment in the history of the world that they love.

[Warwolf]

For the record, I think it works better as Rifts history as well. It gives Rifts players a sense of "being there" at a crucial moment in the history of the world that they love.

I whole-heartedly agree. It really fills in a lot of the blanks that were present for years. Though KS does need to eventually follow through on supporting it as a stand-alone-capable system. Though as it is right now, I do find it an excellent sourcebook for Rifts.

[Sentinel]

For the record, I think it works better as Rifts history as well. It gives Rifts players a sense of "being there" at a crucial moment in the history of the world that they love.

I whole-heartedly agree. It really fills in a lot of the blanks that were present for years. Though KS does need to eventually follow through on supporting it as a stand-alone-capable system. Though as it is right now, I do find it an excellent sourcebook for Rifts.

I don't know what KS could put into the series that wouldn't seem like a Game Designer Meta-Plot Railroad, but I would definitely want to see Chaos Earth kept "in the loop" of the Megaverse, and not fall by the side like Nightbane and N&SS.

[Kagashi]

Im not big on the whole Lucas prequel thing, and I liked the original idea first presented in the Rifter before they went Fantom Mennance on us, but yes, Id still buy Chaos Earth stuff.

[Nxla666]

I like the CE concept but I am mostly just using it as history and alternate demons. Though I see no reason to stop the line it just seems to me that most people are using it as a source book for Rifts.

[Jason Richards]

I don't know what KS could put into the series that wouldn't seem like a Game Designer Meta-Plot Railroad, but I would definitely want to see Chaos Earth kept "in the loop" of the Megaverse, and not fall by the side like Nightbane and N&SS.

See, I don't see anything inherently wrong with an overall story arc. Nobody wants a railroad, but I think the way that Rifts has been traditionally done is fine. I mean, as the timeline has gradually progressed in Rifts, things have evolved. With the exception of Tolkeen, things like the Mechanoids, the Four Horsemen, and ARCHIE have stated outcomes, but no specifics on how you get to that point.

For example, player characters could keep a village from falling to invaders in Chaos Earth, but couldn't keep the Dark Age from setting in, or the Federation of Magic from being established, etc.

[Sentinel]

I don't know what KS could put into the series that wouldn't seem like a Game Designer Meta-Plot Railroad, but I would definitely want to see Chaos Earth kept "in the loop" of the Megaverse, and not fall by the side like Nightbane and N&SS.

See, I don't see anything inherently wrong with an overall story arc. Nobody wants a railroad, but I think the way that Rifts has been traditionally done is fine.
I have always felt that it was too much. The first book was good, as was Sourcebook 1, because a sense of proportion to the disaster had to be established, and the landscape needed to be mapped out. We needed to know things about the OCCs and how they related to the world around them. The CS was there, but it wasn't doing anything, at least nothing that required a six-book meta-plot series.
Atlantis gives me the continent, but then populates it for me, shoe-horns in the Sunaj, and scatters the True Atlanteans, and writes them to be a largely ineffectual force, compared to the Spluglorth. England does likewise with Dark Camelot, Africa with the Empire of the Sun and the Four Horsemen, and so on.
I mean, as the timeline has gradually progressed in Rifts, things have evolved. With the exception of Tolkeen, things like the Mechanoids, the Four Horsemen, and ARCHIE have stated outcomes, but no specifics on how you get to that point.
I don't want nor need the game designer to do a timeline for me.
For example, player characters could keep a village from falling to invaders in Chaos Earth, but couldn't keep the Dark Age from setting in, or the Federation of Magic from being established, etc.

This is something I could work with.
In a modern setting, the players are not likely able to overthrow the governments of the world: neither would they be able to single-handedly re-establish them.
I like the scale of the conflict, and the enormity of the challenge facing the heroes: I just don't want particular story written out for me. It wastes pages that could be taken up with maps and charts, clear explanations of OCCs, illustrations of all sorts, and tips and guides for GMs and Players to play their characters: leave the story-telling to the GM. Tell us how to establish a mood, or detail a scene, but don't dialog it out for us.

[Jason Richards]

I don't know what KS could put into the series that wouldn't seem like a Game Designer Meta-Plot Railroad, but I would definitely want to see Chaos Earth kept "in the loop" of the Megaverse, and not fall by the side like Nightbane and N&SS.

See, I don't see anything inherently wrong with an overall story arc. Nobody wants a railroad, but I think the way that Rifts has been traditionally done is fine.
I have always felt that it was too much. The first book was good, as was Sourcebook 1, because a sense of proportion to the disaster had to be established, and the landscape needed to be mapped out. We needed to know things about the OCCs and how they related to the world around them. The CS was there, but it wasn't doing anything, at least nothing that required a six-book meta-plot series.
Atlantis gives me the continent, but then populates it for me, shoe-horns in the Sunaj, and scatters the True Atlanteans, and writes them to be a largely ineffectual force, compared to the Spluglorth. England does likewise with Dark Camelot, Africa with the Empire of the Sun and the Four Horsemen, and so on.
I mean, as the timeline has gradually progressed in Rifts, things have evolved. With the exception of Tolkeen, things like the Mechanoids, the Four Horsemen, and ARCHIE have stated outcomes, but no specifics on how you get to that point.
I don't want nor need the game designer to do a timeline for me.
For example, player characters could keep a village from falling to invaders in Chaos Earth, but couldn't keep the Dark Age from setting in, or the Federation of Magic from being established, etc.

This is something I could work with.
In a modern setting, the players are not likely able to overthrow the governments of the world: neither would they be able to single-handedly re-establish them.
I like the scale of the conflict, and the enormity of the challenge facing the heroes: I just don't want particular story written out for me. It wastes pages that could be taken up with maps and charts, clear explanations of OCCs, illustrations of all sorts, and tips and guides for GMs and Players to play their characters: leave the story-telling to the GM. Tell us how to establish a mood, or detail a scene, but don't dialog it out for us.

I think we're in agreement here. I guess my ultimate point is that, since this in essence a prequel, some things are set in stone. At some point humans will start to group together and become anti-magic while some will establish magic-friendly societies. If a Chaos Earth gave a name and date to some of these things, I don't think that's bad.

The world of Rifts is in existance and has been pretty much the same for 100 years. The world of Chaos Earth is rapidly changing, and if there were sourcebooks to step the players through the changes of the first 5, 10,or 20 years (in a general way... like, the first anti-magic community pops up 7 years into Chaos, or whatever) I think that's legit.

[Sentinel]

I think we're in agreement here. I guess my ultimate point is that, since this in essence a prequel, some things are set in stone. At some point humans will start to group together and become anti-magic while some will establish magic-friendly societies. If a Chaos Earth gave a name and date to some of these things, I don't think that's bad.

My fear is that once a date is given, and a name (of a designer-created NPC) , then the next step is Chaos Earth: Rise of Tolkeen, a Six-Book adventure series, or something equally crappy.

It's as though, once started, the meta-plotting goes beyond a point of being helpful, and continues past it's welcome point.

[Jason Richards]

I think we're in agreement here. I guess my ultimate point is that, since this in essence a prequel, some things are set in stone. At some point humans will start to group together and become anti-magic while some will establish magic-friendly societies. If a Chaos Earth gave a name and date to some of these things, I don't think that's bad.

My fear is that once a date is given, and a name (of a designer-created NPC) , then the next step is Chaos Earth: Rise of Tolkeen, a Six-Book adventure series, or something equally crappy.

It's as though, once started, the meta-plotting goes beyond a point of being helpful, and continues past it's welcome point.

What about adventures or source material geared toward a specific time period in Chaos Earth? Like, what about a NEMA Mission Book that focused on rescue and recovery missions in the earliest days of the Cataclysm, and one for later fighting against the Apocalypse Demons, or whatever...

[Sentinel]

I think we're in agreement here. I guess my ultimate point is that, since this in essence a prequel, some things are set in stone. At some point humans will start to group together and become anti-magic while some will establish magic-friendly societies. If a Chaos Earth gave a name and date to some of these things, I don't think that's bad.

My fear is that once a date is given, and a name (of a designer-created NPC) , then the next step is Chaos Earth: Rise of Tolkeen, a Six-Book adventure series, or something equally crappy.

It's as though, once started, the meta-plotting goes beyond a point of being helpful, and continues past it's welcome point.

What about adventures or source material geared toward a specific time period in Chaos Earth? Like, what about a NEMA Mission Book that focused on rescue and recovery missions in the earliest days of the Cataclysm, and one for later fighting against the Apocalypse Demons, or whatever...

I would much rather have a book like the CCW for NEMA weapons and equipment, and a book like M&A for demons and monsters. A good sourcebook would also have effects of weather, diseases, radiation sickness, sleep deprivation, starvation, and other challenges.
It just seems to me that there is plenty of stuff to put in a sourcebook without telling stories. If I have well-presented information to begin with, I can make use of these things I mentioned, as well as NPC villains and opponents I come up with on my own. I can make up my own plots: What are the game-mechanic effects of a Silver Eagle Pilot not eating for six days?
What happens to a Chromium Guardsman who contracts radiation sickness in the dead of winter?
I can find adventure hooks in the information, if it were presented well in the first place.

[maasenstodt]

...A good sourcebook would also have effects of weather, diseases, radiation sickness, sleep deprivation, starvation, and other challenges.

It just seems to me that there is plenty of stuff to put in a sourcebook without telling stories. If I have well-presented information to begin with, I can make use of these things I mentioned, as well as NPC villains and opponents I come up with on my own. I can make up my own plots: What are the game-mechanic effects of a Silver Eagle Pilot not eating for six days?

What happens to a Chromium Guardsman who contracts radiation sickness in the dead of winter?

I can find adventure hooks in the information, if it were presented well in the first place.

To Sentinel you should listen here, for words of wisdom these are.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I think we're in agreement here. I guess my ultimate point is that, since this in essence a prequel, some things are set in stone. At some point humans will start to group together and become anti-magic while some will establish magic-friendly societies. If a Chaos Earth gave a name and date to some of these things, I don't think that's bad.

My fear is that once a date is given, and a name (of a designer-created NPC) , then the next step is Chaos Earth: Rise of Tolkeen, a Six-Book adventure series, or something equally crappy.

It's as though, once started, the meta-plotting goes beyond a point of being helpful, and continues past it's welcome point.

What about adventures or source material geared toward a specific time period in Chaos Earth? Like, what about a NEMA Mission Book that focused on rescue and recovery missions in the earliest days of the Cataclysm, and one for later fighting against the Apocalypse Demons, or whatever...

Hmmm...hmm...hm.

Those two book proposals sound suspiciously like the adventures you'll be running at GenCon...events that will have new equipment and O.C.C.s

Hmmm...hmm...hm.

Coincidence?

((BTW, I'd enjoy Mission Books like That)).

As for Meta-Plots like "Rise of Tolkeen," I find such things unliely. The main point of Chaos Earth seems to be the Fall of Civilization, not the Re-Rise of it.

[Sentinel]

The main point of Chaos Earth seems to be the Fall of Civilization, not the Re-Rise of it.

Well, it seems at some point, we will be meta-plotted through the rise of Chi-Town, the Splugloth coming to town, the dawn of the Federation of Magic, and a buch of other stuff that happens inevitably.

[Jason Richards]

The main point of Chaos Earth seems to be the Fall of Civilization, not the Re-Rise of it.

Well, it seems at some point, we will be meta-plotted through the rise of Chi-Town, the Splugloth coming to town, the dawn of the Federation of Magic, and a buch of other stuff that happens inevitably.

Remember that most of that stuff doesn't happen for a couple hundred years after the Cataclysm. I doubt anyone would try to delve that deeply into Chaos Earth's future.

[Jason Richards]

Coincidence?

I'm clearly generally speaking in the most general generalities. Generally.

[Daniel Stoker]

Remember that most of that stuff doesn't happen for a couple hundred years after the Cataclysm. I doubt anyone would try to delve that deeply into Chaos Earth's future.

You beat me to it, it's only 2098 or so in the game and the Rifts world takes place around 2387... I don't think you'll see much Coalition Meta-Polt Sentinal, though I'm sure youc an still Kavetch about it.




Daniel Stoker

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Coincidence?

I'm clearly generally speaking in the most general generalities. Generally.

MmHmm...so when can we expect those books to be at the printer?

[Jason Richards]

Coincidence?

I'm clearly generally speaking in the most general generalities. Generally.

MmHmm...so when can we expect those books to be at the printer?

I've lost track of how many months and years I've been working on Arzno, so don't hold your breath...

It's almost done, though. Red-marking the "final draft" now.

[Sentinel]

Remember that most of that stuff doesn't happen for a couple hundred years after the Cataclysm. I doubt anyone would try to delve that deeply into Chaos Earth's future.

You beat me to it, it's only 2098 or so in the game and the Rifts world takes place around 2387... I don't think you'll see much Coalition Meta-Polt Sentinal, though I'm sure youc an still Kavetch about it.




Daniel Stoker

Well, a lot of that stuff doesn't just happen overnight.

[Jason Richards]

From my experience of running Chaos Earth and talking to fans, I think your view (while valid) is in the extreme minority. There are several things to consider here. First, Rifts is the flagship of Palladium. It therefore only makes sense to link this game directly to the Rifts timeline.

Second, while I appreciate that you want your players to make an impact, expecting that they could somehow redirect the Cataclysm isn't a realistic expectation. It's important to note that their are no direct links between Chaos Earth and Rifts. The two are separated by hundreds of years. In Chaos Earth you'll see some familiar things, but you won't see Tolkeen, Lazlo, or the Coalition. You won't see the world as it exists in Rifts.

The player characters, alone, can't impact the big picture of the Cataclysm in any significant way. What are they going to do? Kill all of the World Slayers? Keep St. Louis from becoming a hotbed of Rift activity? Prevent the tsunamis that destroy the coastlines? They can do no more to affect the Coming of the Rifts or the forces that follow than they could stop an earthquake from leveling a building. It would be like running a WWII campaign and having a group of half a dozen soldiers end the war on their own.

What players CAN do is make a difference locally. They can save a particular town, kill a specific threat, or prevent some individual disaster. That's what Chaos Earth is all about... humanity digging in with its fingernails in the struggle against extinction. There are no big victories, only small ones.

If the players save a town, that doesn't mean it will make it through until 100 P.A. Unless you run campaigns spanning the 300 years from the dawn of Chaos until the time of the RMB (which is not the intent of the game), anything could happen to that little town in the interem.

You have to play Chaos Earth as it is meant to be played... an epic battle in an unwinnable war. Only small victories are possible for the player characters, but they are still important. Like saving one life while the Titanic is going down, that effort still has merit. Chaos Earth is a game of survival and the struggle for life. It has more human drama than any other Palladium game because the cause (in the short term) is hopeless. That's what makes it great.

[Jason Richards]

I was going to respond to the post, point-by-point, but then I realized something. Your argument isn't in any way about the way that Chaos Earth is written. You're just against advancing timelines in any way, in any aspect of the game on the grounds that it limits your players' ability to alter the world.

Your same arguments could be used anywhere in Rifts. You might as well be upset that Hagan shows up in the Mechanoids sourcebook, since your players could easily have killed him in the Sourcebook 1 adventure. For that matter, having the Proseks written up after the first Sourcebook could violate your game if your players managed to find a way to kill them early on.

Even your Area 51 example, the Black Market retro-actively was said to have discovered it in New West, published in 1997. If your players had already found and looted it in your Rifts campaign (as many did, I'm certain), that would throw your game for a loop.

Your players could have averted the Juicer Uprising, or killed King Creed and replaced him with an Auto-G proxy prior to the Siege on Tolkeen.

The moral of the story? If you want to violate canon for your campaign, go for it. It's your game, after all. But, it doesn't seem to be a legitimate gripe that Palladium mandates the overall storyline for Chaos Earth and into the traditional Rifts titles.

I mean, do you take issue with the fact that, by canon, there is nothing your characters can do to stop Free Quebec's secession from the C.S.? Why, in this case, should you demand it be an "alternate timeline" when Kevin has been "hamstringing" gamers with official advancing storylines since day one?

[Nxla666]

I have, in my Rifts game, had the players get sent BACK in time to help stop the rise of Quetal Marnac and help the rise of Psyscape. So the argument that the timeline hamstrings the players holds no real merit as all a GM has to do is be more imaginative, like have the PCs help with the establishment of a small community that later becomes Lazlo or Chi-town, maybe even Tolkeen.

The fact that NEMA loses in the end isnt a problem as long as humanity survives.

[Jason Richards]

Your players saving some little town in Chaos Earth is not going to have massive reprecussions 300 years into the future unless you set it up that way.

What could your players do in Chaos Earth that would have a significant effect on Rifts in 100 P.A.?

And, by the way, you're wrong about the "alternate timeline" thing for Chaos Earth somehow being this amazing thing that gamers would love. The pre-Rifts timeline thing as it is now played much better with the fans than did the Rifter's version of the situation.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I have, in my Rifts game, had the players get sent BACK in time to help stop the rise of Quetal Marnac and help the rise of Psyscape. So the argument that the timeline hamstrings the players holds no real merit as all a GM has to do is be more imaginative, like have the PCs help with the establishment of a small community that later becomes Lazlo or Chi-town, maybe even Tolkeen.

The fact that NEMA loses in the end isnt a problem as long as humanity survives.

But you are forcing them to start existing communities in the main books! They can't establish something new or different. They have to conform to the known events, they are locked in their roles. So you have made my point. Their actions have no long term consequence of their choosing.

If played correctly the players in a Chaos Earth game would not have enough time or opprotunity to establish a community or power base.

Think back to any disaster (9-11, the Hurricanes last year or Katrina this year). It is like that damn near 2-7 on Chaos Earth.

Makes it pretty hard for the players to found a community.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Your players saving some little town in Chaos Earth is not going to have massive reprecussions 300 years into the future unless you set it up that way.

What could your players do in Chaos Earth that would have a significant effect on Rifts in 100 P.A.?

And, by the way, you're wrong about the "alternate timeline" thing for Chaos Earth somehow being this amazing thing that gamers would love. The pre-Rifts timeline thing as it is now played much better with the fans than did the Rifter's version of the situation.

what could they do that could alter things in 100 PA?

How about nuke an area 80 miles away from old Chicago? A rather dramatic example, but an example none the less. No NEMA survivors, means no CS, a radioactive wasteland in the area that Chitown is supposed to be on also puts a kink in things.

As to your last statement? Would love to see the market research supporting it. I remember some of the threads that where this was being talked about just after the rifter came out. As I recall it leaned more toward my view then your statement.

Nuclear Weapons should never be in the players hands, that GM would be a {self moderated}.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

It doesn't force you to play in a box.

Nuclear Weapons, true city busting nukes (as found in Coalition Navy) should never be given into the hands of player characters in any game.

The level of power is far to gret, even higher then what most munchkin's crave.

[Nxla666]

But you are forcing them to start existing communities in the main books! They can't establish something new or different. They have to conform to the known events, they are locked in their roles. So you have made my point. Their actions have no long term consequence of their choosing.

I would not force them, nor have I EVER forced my players to do stuff by cannon, you have decided to use my words to futher YOUR point ignoring the point I made.

Actually the only one who dictates the future is the GM, according to cannon there is no REF presence on Rifts Earth yet in most of my games I have a presence AND it affects the rest of the world somehow.

If YOU as GM decide that what the players do in Chaos Earth impacts on events 300 years later than they do. The outcome of EVERYTHING is dependent on you.

[Jason Richards]

As to your last statement? Would love to see the market research supporting it. I remember some of the threads that where this was being talked about just after the rifter came out. As I recall it leaned more toward my view then your statement.

You're just going to have to take my word for it. However, if you need a reason... why did Palladium make the change?

Oh, and per your nuke scenerio, Josh is right. Your players shouldn't have access to such weapons, and even if they figured out a way to get them, how exactly would your players go about detonating them? You have to inject a little realism into your game, or it's just anarchy. Part of that reality is that there are things in motion that are too big for your players to impact.

Also, your analysis that nuking Chicago would wipe out NEMA and therefore prevent the formation of the C.S. is flawed, since NEMA is scattered across the continent, and after more than a century and given its initial resources, cleaning up the radiation wouldn't be an impossible feat. Remember that Chaos Earth doesn't cover what happens during the Dark Age... it's a black box. It only covers the descent into the Dark Age.

[Jason Richards]

It doesn't force you to play in a box.

Nuclear Weapons, true city busting nukes (as found in Coalition Navy) should never be given into the hands of player characters in any game.

The level of power is far to gret, even higher then what most munchkin's crave.

yes it does force you to play within the box I described, you just don't care about it.

And yes, under most circumstances players should not be able to get ahold of them, but it is still possible to get ahold of nukes. But from how you framed your answer and argument, you are a determinist GM so you are used to keeping your players in a box. A somewhat bigger and more benign box, but a box none the less.

I don't. Well, only the box dictated by probability. So getting ahold of a nuke would be possible, but highly improbable at base and the probability would increase or decrease based upon the actions of the players. How good their plan was, how well they executed that plan etc.

So by inference no matter how flawless the plan, no matter how excellent the play, you would still not allow the action. And that is a matter of style more then anything. I don't have different rules for the NPCs' and the PCs'. If a group of NPCs' could do it, or have done it, a group of PCs should also be able to do it with perhaps a bit more difficulty.

That "box" you detest is present in all aspects of the game. The Juicers tore Newtown to the ground. Tolkeen was beseiged and destroyed by the Coalition. The Four Horsemen were defeated by the Gathering of Heroes.

And, the Coalition, Tolkeen, and Lazlo rose from the ashes of the Dark Age. It's all the same box. It's part of the overall plot of the game. You can't fault Palladium for that. Simply change it if you want, that's what Game Masters do.

[Jason Richards]

please... clean up the radiation? With what exactly? Do they have an industrial base or access to the technology, equipment and expertise to "clean" it up? Especially with the world coming apart around their ears, I think not. And what is to say that there are going to be sufficient NEMA survivors that would be willing to pull up stakes from whatever cantonment they have already established to settle in that area? Why would they abandon the people they were already protecting etc. Sounds like making a great amount of effort to keep the timeline on track so that Chitown rises on schedule. And that my friend IS the box.

It was an exaggerated example, but it's every bit as valid as your claim that a group of characters could gain access to a nuke, have the capability to set it off, and manage to get it to Chicago, and manage to destroy enough of NEMA so as to prevent future events.

I get that you like the game, and that is alright. But as a campaign environment it is deeply flawed,

Demand is high for Chaos Earth supplements, by the way.

and it will become more flawed the more books they put out for it. Since that would encourage people to keep playing the game over an extended amount of time.

HA! I'm writing that one down. I'll remember that you said it.

The longer the groups play, the more changes are going to be made to the timeline that are potentially meaningfully impactful.

Impactful? Yes, in the short term. Impactful to the 100 P.A. world of Rifts? No, not if the game is played as it is intended to be played.

The more books that come out, the more players, the more more players, the more books taking the environment further and further along the timeline into the dark ages.

As I previously pointed out, Chaos Earth doesn't cover the Dark Ages, only the short period between the Cataclysm and the fall.

And the deeper the penetration along the timeline toward known events and history the greater the danger. Because by necessity, the game will have evolved from a rescue and survival mission to a survive and rebuild one.

Wrong again. Chaos Earth isn't about rebuilding. Rebuilding doesn't start for at least a century after the Cataclysm, at the earliest. The are 200 years of Dark Age before any legitimate attempt at civilization truly takes root again.

As to why Kevin did what he did? Why does anyone do anything. He changed his mind for good or ill. He could have done everything with much greater safety to the storyline from the alternate timeline perspective.

There is no danger to the storyline because Kevin wrote the storyline. Any violation of that storyline is done at GM discretion, but the game is written such that as long as the GM doesn't violate the basic principles of the game (a game of survival during the apocalypse) the world as it exists 200 years into the future is not in jeopardy.

And, of course, this ignores that fact that the point of Chaos Earth as it is written is to tell the story of the history of Rifts. That's the whole point of the game... to let players live through the Great Cataclysm. An alternate timeline approach steals that from the gamers.

It would have required just writing two bits of background story for some of the events detailed in the game books. One for the alternate, and one for the main Rifts timeline.

You seem so willing to make changes, even major ones, to fit your campaign. Why do you insist that Palladium should totally change the theme of the game to fit your needs when you, with ZERO effort, could simply make that distinction yourself? Tell your players "This is an alternate timeline" and be done with it? Then, you could play it and the characters could nuke NEMA however many times they wanted to.

And the alternate would have appealed to some new customers that find the setting of Rifts just a bit too dark, and by extension the Chaos Earth one as it sits is even darker and more oppressively depressing. Yes there are moments of heroism that could come out of a CE game, but could they not in any setting?

Chaos Earth is in high demand, as I noted earlier. Further, Rifts has done extremely well with its dark and gritty feel... why would Palladium suddenly divert from that when portraying the apocalypse?

Would it not be a better thing to have a group fight to keep humanity from going completely under in the alternate then to have a group of players being pushed by the needs of survival to fight to even keep a shred of their OWN humanity as they just try to save their own skins and the skins of a few handfuls of people.

The characters don't know their hope is lost. They are fighting to save humanity.

One storyline has an internal story pressure pushing towards hope and heroism, the other has the pressure toward the other direction.

The storyline has whatever pressure the GM builds into it. Palladium's writing of the material has nothing to do with it. NEMA troops in Chaos Earth ARE fighting to save humanity and beat back the monsters from the Rifts. They don't know their cause is ultimately futile. They have no idea how bad things on the planet really are. And, there is no reason that they can't have early success. Chaos Earth covers the first few years after the Great Cataclysm, and that's it. Let your players have however much success during the game period that they can achieve. That doesn't mean that success will last for the duration between the two games.

[Damian Magecraft]

causality plays no part in Chaos Earth.

Chaos Earth is about Fate and it is about Man Surviving that Fate, nothing more.

The Apocalypse has already begun and it is to late to change it. In order to cause changes in the timeline, you would have to have done so well before the time of Chaos Earth.

uhmmm no.. changes to the timeline can still occur, I am not talking about stopping the cataclysm here but the stuff AFTER it can still have an impact on what you know of as Rifts Earth.

Perhaps causality does not mean what you think it means...

True changes to the time line can occur...However you are only applying part of the theory of alternate time lines for your causality argument. The other half of the theory states there are key moments in time the key moments are the only ones that have any lasting effect on the time line and they only occur every 50 to 100 years or so... any changes to moments in time other than these key moments have no lasting effects on the time line. CE taking place 200 to 300 years prior to the start of the RMB time line means the time line will self correct.

[Damian Magecraft]

Well that is not the part I am getting at, but it does give me a simpler way to put it

My point more specifically is, The "Key" moment has already happenned.

glad I could help, that was my stance as well...
now that makes me wonder though...
what other moments in the CE/Rifts time line are key events?

[Damian Magecraft]

And perhaps you are still missing the point.

Chaos Earth is a very short time period, and the whole concept of the game, is to Survive it happening.

There is not enough time for anyone to do anything that will affect future time lines.

No, I am getting the point. Let me illustrate and example of the failure of your position.

Let us say that on December 7th 1941 Admiral Nogumo launches the third and fourth strike on Pearl. Ignoring any of the military aspects of this event that can alter the timeline that we know, let us instead concentrate on something else: He kills in those additional strikes another 800 men and woman....and ALL of their descendents.

And that was a time span of less then a day. So exactly how short a time frame are we talking about for CE?

your example reinforces my point more than your own you have picked a key moment in time any changes made then will have an effect on the timeline that is uncorrectable. the key moments in time for CE have already passed all further changes will self correct.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

The game doesn't force you to play in a box anymore then Rifts, PFRPG or anyother RPG game does.

What this really boils down to is that it sounds like you are missing the point (it a game of human tragedy and survival not reclamation) or that the game is just not for you (which is perfectly okay if it isn't).

These arguments are going nowhere and are becomic circular.

[Damian Magecraft]

And Jason..

Whether or not the CE line is selling is irrelevent, as it is just as likely the alternate version in the rifter would have sold just as well.

"Impactful? Yes, in the short term. Impactful to the 100 P.A. world of Rifts? No, not if the game is played as it is intended to be played."

So, you even say that you must play the game in the box assigned. Thanks for agreeing with me. In order for the game to be played the players and GM must surrender a significant portion of their freewill and fulfill their role as actors in a play.

sigh...skippy you still miss the point...you are assuming that all actions will have long lasting effects to the time line. this is an incorrect assumption. only changes to key events in time are going to have any lasting effects.
as to where did I get the key part? read up on the theory. its used heavily in alternate history novels, and only key events can effect history.

[Jason Richards]

And Jason..

Whether or not the CE line is selling is irrelevent, as it is just as likely the alternate version in the rifter would have sold just as well.

"Impactful? Yes, in the short term. Impactful to the 100 P.A. world of Rifts? No, not if the game is played as it is intended to be played."

So, you even say that you must play the game in the box assigned. Thanks for agreeing with me. In order for the game to be played the players and GM must surrender a significant portion of their freewill and fulfill their role as actors in a play.

You can play the game however you like, but like all RPG's, there is a difference between the way it was designed to be played and taking a "do anything" approach. Both are valid, but one is supported by the publisher and the other is not.

You could have a Chaos Earth game in which the players affect world change and prevent the Rifts of 100 P.A. from coming about. Just the same, your players could play Supernatural Intelligences in a game of Rifts and smite the Coalition. You could play a Mega-Hero from HU in Beyond the Supernatural. You could Rift your heavy Robotech mecha into Palladium and rule the world. All of these are valid games, and can even be fun (I once ran a Star Wars D6 game where we killed all of the heroes on Hoth), but they are played in a way outside of the design of the game.

And, that's okay, but don't try to claim that it's the way the game should have been set up when published.

And, my biggest point has gone unanswered. You refuse to run Chaos Earth because it has the potential to interfere with your version of Rifts Earth. For this, you hold the game to a certain level of disdain. So, if you're willing to make minor changes in other campaigns as the result of your characters' actions (like ignoring the Juicer Uprising or moving the home of Bandito Arms, as discussed earlier) will you not simply claim for your gaming purposes that Chaos Earth is an alternate timeline? Why insist that Palladium should have done so when you, as GM, could simply say the word and then game Chaos Earth however you see fit?

[Jason Richards]

uhmm perhaps because I wanted to see what the Golden Age of man was like?

CE doesn't do that, it shows you some of the toys they had but not the kind of world they had. That would have been nicely done by actually having enough of that world around to actually SEE as was detailed in the rifter version.

In CE you see smoking ruins of what was, in the rifter version you get those and some others that are only singed a bit around the edges.

The other reason that I don't like or want to declare CE an "alternate" timeline is that I run a continuim timeline... and I don't want my players urging me to run the uptime version of the alternate!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you have any idea how much bloody work it would be to rewrite each of the previously released world books to take into account any changes?

I do have a life outside of gaming...

I think it comes down to the fact that your idea of what Chaos Earth is "supposed" to be is fundamentally different than mine, along with most other fans, and Kevin's.

Chaos Earth is designed to be a game with a limited timeline, one that focuses on humankind's fight for survival during the apocalypse, and to lay the groundwork for the company's flagship gaming line. As such, it ties directly in with said gameline as well as the upcoming video game and movie.

The way it is, virtually noone is complaining. I can't see why it should be done any other way.

And, as written, if you wanted an alternate timeline, all you would have to do is declare it as so. It doesn't work the other way around.

[Damian Magecraft]

And Jason..

Whether or not the CE line is selling is irrelevent, as it is just as likely the alternate version in the rifter would have sold just as well.

"Impactful? Yes, in the short term. Impactful to the 100 P.A. world of Rifts? No, not if the game is played as it is intended to be played."

So, you even say that you must play the game in the box assigned. Thanks for agreeing with me. In order for the game to be played the players and GM must surrender a significant portion of their freewill and fulfill their role as actors in a play.

sigh...skippy you still miss the point...you are assuming that all actions will have long lasting effects to the time line. this is an incorrect assumption. only changes to key events in time are going to have any lasting effects.
as to where did I get the key part? read up on the theory. its used heavily in alternate history novels, and only key events can effect history.

Oh I have read up on the theory, that is why I asked you about where you got it, and you got where I thought that you did. That is a literary convention, and I was using physics. Not the same frame of reference.

But we don't want to get bogged down in that, since it is really not part of my point. But using the literary convention, the cataclysm and its' aftermath ARE one of those key events, what the people do will have long term last consequences.

And any group with sufficient firepower to hold a section of town or city or any land capable of supporting a population and act as a cantonment will have massive effects. Since those cantonments will eventually grow into the towns and cities of Rifts Earth.

and here is where you make your biggest error applying "real" physics to a game that is a literary invention, and lets face it the literary "convention" as you put it is as valid as any other theory on time travel/alternate history. Actually since Rifts and CE are literary inventions the "literary convention" is probably the more valid of the two theories in this instance. The problem is neither theory can be proven and both are pursued in science, but since the idea that killing a butterfly in the past could result in catastrophic chages "upstream" is the more sensational and disturbing that is the theory thats given the most credence. (and no my information does not come from just science fiction novels...) I do attend seminars on science, at one such seminar the speaker even addmited that the so called literary theory was as valid as the one he was investigating. The following quote he made stuck with me "neither can currently be proven thats why they are called theories not facts."

That aside the method you choose to play the game is yours but trying to claim that the way you game is the "only right way" to play is ludicrous and only further undermines your stance.

[Damian Magecraft]

And Jason..

Whether or not the CE line is selling is irrelevent, as it is just as likely the alternate version in the rifter would have sold just as well.

"Impactful? Yes, in the short term. Impactful to the 100 P.A. world of Rifts? No, not if the game is played as it is intended to be played."

So, you even say that you must play the game in the box assigned. Thanks for agreeing with me. In order for the game to be played the players and GM must surrender a significant portion of their freewill and fulfill their role as actors in a play.

sigh...skippy you still miss the point...you are assuming that all actions will have long lasting effects to the time line. this is an incorrect assumption. only changes to key events in time are going to have any lasting effects.
as to where did I get the key part? read up on the theory. its used heavily in alternate history novels, and only key events can effect history.

Oh I have read up on the theory, that is why I asked you about where you got it, and you got where I thought that you did. That is a literary convention, and I was using physics. Not the same frame of reference.

But we don't want to get bogged down in that, since it is really not part of my point. But using the literary convention, the cataclysm and its' aftermath ARE one of those key events, what the people do will have long term last consequences.

And any group with sufficient firepower to hold a section of town or city or any land capable of supporting a population and act as a cantonment will have massive effects. Since those cantonments will eventually grow into the towns and cities of Rifts Earth.

and here is where you make your biggest error applying "real" physics to a game that is a literary invention, and lets face it the literary "convention" as you put it is as valid as any other theory on time travel/alternate history. Actually since Rifts and CE are literary inventions the "literary convention" is probably the more valid of the two theories in this instance. The problem is neither theory can be proven and both are pursued in science, but since the idea that killing a butterfly in the past could result in catastrophic chages "upstream" is the more sensational and disturbing that is the theory thats given the most credence. (and no my information does not come from just science fiction novels...) I do attend seminars on science, at one such seminar the speaker even addmited that the so called literary theory was as valid as the one he was investigating. The following quote he made stuck with me "neither can currently be proven thats why they are called theories not facts."

That aside the method you choose to play the game is yours but trying to claim that the way you game is the "only right way" to play is ludicrous and only further undermines your stance.

I think you are reading a bit much into what I have said. I never claimed that my way was the only way. What I said was people need to consider actions MORE. And I have seen far to much of the just glossing over the action/reaction part of gaming.

The proof of my argument is to take a group of PCs is that you can not trace a multigenerational story arc with them and their descendents without risking the derailing the RMB. And my secondary point is that you must play in a box that takes that into account without having to as needed rewrite all the books that you have previously spent good money on, and erasing any previous Rifts campaigns that you ran.

But you guys seem to think that is not a concern worth noting or addressing in an honest manner. Since the bulk of the arguments in defense of the opposing view have been "well you have to play it the way it is intended", which is playing IN the box. Or have been in the nature of "well you can do what you want and just deal with the changes". Both of which are proofs of my argument and not a refutation of it. If I wanted to write umpteen world books in the first place I sure as hell wouldn't have shelled out the $500+ I have in PB product! And I am not going to take the cheese ball hack coward way out by making it an "alternate" timeline uptime to avoid the work!


I'm done on this subject.

pity, you give up. with out even seeing if perhaps there are some of us who say it is completely possible to play outside the box and still not upset the timeline. my convention is that the first Key event in the rifts time has already happened any further actions by the players is going to self correct (gm may have to preform minor rewrites for this to work). a major revision of the Rifts timeline is unnessacary.

[Damian Magecraft]

It is not so much giving up, but not wishing to have this drift into bad feelings. The arguments are mostly circular at this point and not worth going over for another round or twelve.

Your convention way of handling it, is workable, but not to my tastes. Depending upon how it is handled, and viewing the sum total of the campaign as a written work of fiction, it has a tendency of coming across in far to many cases as bad writing. It would be rare that I would find it a case of good writing, it would come across most of the time as taking a cheap out.

And that does not mean that you can't come out with an entertaining story from it, there are numerous instances of movies or books that have similar plot flaws doing quite well and being very entertaining. It doesn't change that they have the flaw, it is just that it is forgiven, ignored, or commented on but considered to be part of a genre convention that you just have to accept and tolerate.

And it does not mean that I have not used similar "conventions", it just means I don't like to. I consider it a personal failure on one level if I have to fall back on a crutch like that. I strive to put forth a work that stands out from a sea of the formulaic to challenge myself, and bring as much entertainment to my players as possible.

There are far to many GMs', decent and competent GMs' that just don't stretch themselves enough.

I understand your stance, and can also apreciate it.
I see we have differing views on streching ourselves as GMs...
I see it as challenge to find unique methods of causing the timeline to "self-correct" (this a poor turn of a phrase here... as really its the GM who corrects... but it was my choice for a term) as I dislike using the same "out" everytime. I view it as nice puzzle the Players have presented for me (I seldom get a chance to be just a PC so I take my mental exercises where I can get them).